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XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:32 pm

aerolimani wrote:
ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
Shares currently falling today, the bad news keeps coming! Will it get to a point whereby the FAA will look to fully recertify the Max and not just the updates?

Boeing shares slipped Friday after a Reuters report said instant messages from 2016 suggest that employees misled the FAA about a key safety system on the 737 Max, the plane that has been grounded since mid-March after two fatal crashes.

The FAA turned over the instant messages to U.S. lawmakers and the Department of Transportation Inspector General, the FAA said in a statement. The FAA says Boeing discovered the messages "some months ago" and the flight regulatory agency finds the document "concerning."


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/18/boeing- ... 7-max.html


Yikes. Some potentially really bad news for Boeing. Certainly, the market is afraid.

Here’s the Reuter’s report mentioned in the article: https://www.reuters.com/article/ethiopi ... SL2N27310U

Sources told Reuters the Boeing internal messages raised questions about the performance of the so-called MCAS anti-stall system that has been tied to the two fatal crashes in five months. Boeing declined to immediately comment.

The messages are between the MAX’s then-chief technical pilot and another Boeing pilot, the sources said, and raised questions about the MCAS’s performance in the simulator.

Now we know why Forkner was issued with a subpoena and pleaded the fifth.

This is the second report today that has reference to Boeing still failing to co-operate whole heartedly. The first was in relation to congress.

'Unintentionally lied' is a new one for me. Makes a change from 'miss-spoke' or 'economical with the truth'.

Ray
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:14 pm

sharpley wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
mrbots wrote:

I saw that! I'm curious what exactly those IM's contained? I'd like to see the detail. I've been giving Boeing the benefit of the doubt on this all being gross incompetence until more evidence came to light. Assuming this isn't just an exaggeration by the news, this could turn into criminal negligence or fraud and if so people should be indicted if that's the case whether or not they're still at BA. Also, why weren't these turned over "some months ago" when they were discovered? Any idea what the FBI has discovered so far in their investigation? Time for a raid in Everett and Chicago?

There’s some more detail here: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/18/busi ... 69ing-news

Especially, there’s some very PO’d comments from the FAA’s Stephen Dickson. He has sent Muilenburg a letter saying “I expect your explanation immediately regarding the content of this document and Boeing’s delay in disclosing the document to its safety regulator.”

The letter in question can be seen on Jon Ostrower's twitter
https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 7008973826
Image
looks like Dennis will not be replying as he won't be around much longer....

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djm18
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:17 pm

Agreed, if Boeing is going to emerge stronger from this crisis it needs to completely change its culture. This needs to happen with a firm message from the board, something stronger than removing the CEO as chairman. There is desperate need for a new CEO who can make Boeing great again !!!
 
sincx
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:18 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
Now we know why Forkner was issued with a subpoena and pleaded the fifth.

This is the second report today that has reference to Boeing still failing to co-operate whole heartedly. The first was in relation to congress.

'Unintentionally lied' is a new one for me. Makes a change from 'miss-spoke' or 'economical with the truth'.

Ray

'Unintentionally lied' sounds better than 346 counts of manslaughter.
 
ACATROYAL
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:26 pm

Well this latest news pretty much does it for the 737 MAX. It's definitely not coming back anytime soon...maybe even never!!
 
ubeema
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:32 pm

Ray where did you see “unintentionally lied” CNBC article posted above says this:
“It’s running rampant in the sim on me”, the pilot, Mark Forkner, Boeing’s former chief technical pilot, said in 2016 to a colleague, referring to the simulator, according to the transcript. “Granted, I suck at flying, but even this was egregious.”

His colleague replied that they would have to update the description of the system.

“So I basically lied to regulators (unknowingly),” read Forkner’s reply. Forkner did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
 
Basefly
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:38 pm

This is bad, No matter where you look, the news coming out just gets worse. Is this the end of the 737, or are we still going to run with "making a safe plane safer"?
757/777-A340/A380, Love them.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:42 pm

Basefly wrote:
This is bad, No matter where you look, the news coming out just gets worse. Is this the end of the 737, or are we still going to run with "making a safe plane safer"?

In the world we live in, with the expectations we have for economic growth, and how much of that expectation relies on the civil aviation industry, the world can’t easily afford to lose the MAX. Somehow or other, the “too important to fail” aspect will come into play. I don’t think anybody’s going to write a blank cheque, but if it takes public money to fix the issue, it will get fixed.
 
Sooner787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:47 pm

djm18 wrote:
Agreed, if Boeing is going to emerge stronger from this crisis it needs to completely change its culture. This needs to happen with a firm message from the board, something stronger than removing the CEO as chairman. There is desperate need for a new CEO who can make Boeing great again !!!


Anyone know what Alan Mullaly is up to these days? :)

Seriously, he might be the only one who can restore the great Boeing name.
 
many321
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:49 pm

here is a transcript from the txt msgs...yeah, it looks bad.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... sages.html
Last edited by many321 on Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
mrbots
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:54 pm

Basefly wrote:
This is bad, No matter where you look, the news coming out just gets worse. Is this the end of the 737, or are we still going to run with "making a safe plane safer"?


I don't see how this letter could cause the end of the 737 as this shouldn't interfere with the scheduled certification flight next month as what this is concerning should already be implemented in the software updates if it wasn't already because without full detail, for all we know the pilot's findings mentioned were fixed before launch. Cancelling the 737 without a replacement ready would be the end of Boeing and they'll throw every resource they have at it to ensure that doesn't happen. They simply can't survive without the cash flow for a long period. Also, no one should wish the end of the 737 as it'll cause massive damage to the economy with tens of thousands of jobs lost between Boeing, Spirit, CFM, etc. and I will personally have no qualms about flying on it after it's allowed back in the air as it'll be one of the most, if not the most, vetted commercial aircraft in aviation history. Though, the more that comes to light this should definitely be the end of multiple careers and the freedom of anyone involved in hiding or covering up known flaws (fraud, criminal negligence, man slaughter, etc.). Wednesday's quarterly release will be an interesting one...
 
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Erebus
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:55 pm

aerolimani wrote:
Basefly wrote:
This is bad, No matter where you look, the news coming out just gets worse. Is this the end of the 737, or are we still going to run with "making a safe plane safer"?

In the world we live in, with the expectations we have for economic growth, and how much of that expectation relies on the civil aviation industry, the world can’t easily afford to lose the MAX. Somehow or other, the “too important to fail” aspect will come into play. I don’t think anybody’s going to write a blank cheque, but if it takes public money to fix the issue, it will get fixed.


I've always felt that for a industry dominated by a duopoly, regulations must be robust enough to prevent dangerous management practices that risks throwing the entire industry and those that depend on it into chaos and disruptions. Boeing and Airbus may be thought of as "too big to fail" but the truth is that they must be protected from exactly this kind of stuff.
 
dougbr2006
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:55 pm

Seems like its time for the FAA to not only look at MCAS but also to verify all the differences between the NG and the MAX. Put all of them through a new certification scrutiny, otherwise no one is going to trust that Boeing has not covered up or not disclosed other potential fatal flaws that could be waiting for their time to appear. Even if it took another year it would be better than finding out via another crash site.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:01 pm

ubeema wrote:
Ray where did you see “unintentionally lied” CNBC article posted above says this:
“It’s running rampant in the sim on me”, the pilot, Mark Forkner, Boeing’s former chief technical pilot, said in 2016 to a colleague, referring to the simulator, according to the transcript. “Granted, I suck at flying, but even this was egregious.”

His colleague replied that they would have to update the description of the system.

“So I basically lied to regulators (unknowingly),” read Forkner’s reply. Forkner did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Apologies. I retract. It was in one of the early reports but they all seem to have been updated, somebodies take on the meaning probably.

Ray.
 
ubeema
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:13 pm

many321 wrote:
here is a transcript from the txt msgs...yeah, it looks bad.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... sages.html

Thanks. Shocked so much leaked out!
 
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sergegva
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:25 pm

many321 wrote:
here is a transcript from the txt msgs...yeah, it looks bad.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... sages.html

"I'm levelling off at 4000 ft, 230 knots, and the plane is trimming itself like crazy. I'm like, WHAT?"

November 16th, 2016. :ill:
 
Part147
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:26 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
ubeema wrote:
Ray where did you see “unintentionally lied” CNBC article posted above says this:
“It’s running rampant in the sim on me”, the pilot, Mark Forkner, Boeing’s former chief technical pilot, said in 2016 to a colleague, referring to the simulator, according to the transcript. “Granted, I suck at flying, but even this was egregious.”

His colleague replied that they would have to update the description of the system.

“So I basically lied to regulators (unknowingly),” read Forkner’s reply. Forkner did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Apologies. I retract. It was in one of the early reports but they all seem to have been updated, somebodies take on the meaning probably.

Ray.


In the text exchange linked above... the pilot used that phrase I've bolded below...

------
Mark Forkner 6:50 PM:
Oh shocker alerT!
MCAS is now active down to M .2
It's running rampant in the sim on me
at least that's what Vince thinks is happening

Gustavsson, Patrik H 6:51 PM:
Oh great, that means we have to update the speed trim descritption in vol 2

Mark Forkner 6:51 PM:
so I basically lied to the regulators (unknowingly)

Gustavsson, Patrik H 6:51 PM:
it wasnt a lie, no one told us that was the case

Mark Forkner 6:51 PM:
I'm levelling off at like 4000 ft, 230 knots and the plane is trimming itself like craxy
I'm like, WHAT?
------

It just shows you that there is no such thing as digital privacy anymore!
It's better to ask a stupid question during training, rather than make a REALLY stupid mistake later on!
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:29 pm

Part147 wrote:
XRAYretired wrote:
ubeema wrote:
Ray where did you see “unintentionally lied” CNBC article posted above says this:

Apologies. I retract. It was in one of the early reports but they all seem to have been updated, somebodies take on the meaning probably.

Ray.


In the text exchange linked above... the pilot used that phrase I've bolded below...

------
Mark Forkner 6:50 PM:
Oh shocker alerT!
MCAS is now active down to M .2
It's running rampant in the sim on me
at least that's what Vince thinks is happening

Gustavsson, Patrik H 6:51 PM:
Oh great, that means we have to update the speed trim descritption in vol 2

Mark Forkner 6:51 PM:
so I basically lied to the regulators (unknowingly)

Gustavsson, Patrik H 6:51 PM:
it wasnt a lie, no one told us that was the case

Mark Forkner 6:51 PM:
I'm levelling off at like 4000 ft, 230 knots and the plane is trimming itself like craxy
I'm like, WHAT?
------

It just shows you that there is no such thing as digital privacy anymore!


Digital privacy on a company network? It’s not like Boeing was spying on their personal phones or computers.
 
Basefly
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:29 pm

mrbots wrote:
Basefly wrote:
This is bad, No matter where you look, the news coming out just gets worse. Is this the end of the 737, or are we still going to run with "making a safe plane safer"?


I don't see how this letter could cause the end of the 737 as this shouldn't interfere with the scheduled certification flight next month as what this is concerning should already be implemented in the software updates if it wasn't already because without full detail, for all we know the pilot's findings mentioned were fixed before launch. Cancelling the 737 without a replacement ready would be the end of Boeing and they'll throw every resource they have at it to ensure that doesn't happen. They simply can't survive without the cash flow for a long period. Also, no one should wish the end of the 737 as it'll cause massive damage to the economy with tens of thousands of jobs lost between Boeing, Spirit, CFM, etc. and I will personally have no qualms about flying on it after it's allowed back in the air as it'll be one of the most, if not the most, vetted commercial aircraft in aviation history. Though, the more that comes to light this should definitely be the end of multiple careers and the freedom of anyone involved in hiding or covering up known flaws (fraud, criminal negligence, man slaughter, etc.). Wednesday's quarterly release will be an interesting one...


Oh I don't want Boeing to fail, I just want everything to come out now, no more leaks, no more hiding anything.

Boeing need to change the c suite NOW, a big reset is needed.
757/777-A340/A380, Love them.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:30 pm

Unfortunately the other thread was deleted instead of merged, but the 1st-hand reading of the messages is a lot less sensational than the media portrayals. The exchange is lacking in context, and without it, it's only a guess as to whether it's even relevant to what's happened since. I just heard an outright misleading report from CBS, so be careful out there. Best to read the actual messages and take them under context.
 
m66
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:31 pm

I get the feeling the 777X certification will be a breeze and great fun for Boeing ...
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:33 pm

aerolimani wrote:
There’s some more detail here: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/18/busi ... 69ing-news

Especially, there’s some very PO’d comments from the FAA’s Stephen Dickson. He has sent Muilenburg a letter saying “I expect your explanation immediately regarding the content of this document and Boeing’s delay in disclosing the document to its safety regulator.”

Seems to be a controlled release, based on the timing:

Boeing provided the transcript to lawmakers on Capitol Hill on Friday morning, in advance of hearings this month at which the company’s chief executive, Dennis A. Muilenburg, will testify about the crashes for the first time.

Boeing had provided the transcript earlier this year to the Department of Justice, which is conducting a criminal investigation, according to two people familiar with the communications who spoke on condition of anonymity because the exchange was not yet public.


XRAYretired wrote:
Now we know why Forkner was issued with a subpoena and pleaded the fifth.

Makes sense that he has "lawyered up", but I'm not sure the lawyer is earning his pay given the whoppers he is serving:

A lawyer for Mr. Forkner downplayed the importance of the messages, suggesting Mr. Forkner was talking about issues with the simulator.

If you read the whole chat, it is obvious that there was no ‘lie’ and the simulator program was not operating properly,” the lawyer, David Gerger, said in a statement. “Based on what he was told, Mark thought the plane was safe, and the simulator would be fixed.”

Actually if you read the text ( link above, https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... sages.html ), I do not reach the conclusion that he thinks it's a sim malfunction, he's saying he needs to tell the FAA which means he believes it is the designed behavior.

Mark Forkner 6:50 PM:
Oh shocker alerT!
MCAS is now active down to M .2
It's running rampant in the sim on me

at least that's what Vince thinks is happening

Gustavsson, Patrik H 6:51 PM:
Oh great, that means we have to update the speed trim descritption in vol 2

Mark Forkner 6:51 PM:
so I basically lied to the regulators (unknowingly)

Gustavsson, Patrik H 6:51 PM:
it wasnt a lie, no one told us that was the case

Mark Forkner 6:51 PM:
I'm levelling off at like 4000 ft, 230 knots and the plane is trimming itself like craxy
I'm like, WHAT?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:39 pm

I do nor expect the 737MAX to die, but rather to get fixed. I just do not know, if Boeing has yet got serious about fixing it, or is playing a dangerous game of chicken with the regulators.

This last revelation in those sms does not influence the fixing of the MAX, but shoots down the honest mistake argument and shows that most likely Boeing was cutting dangerous corners and some people at Boeing knowingly set lives at risk.
 
ubeema
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:43 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Unfortunately the other thread was deleted instead of merged, but the 1st-hand reading of the messages is a lot less sensational than the media portrayals. The exchange is lacking in context, and without it, it's only a guess as to whether it's even relevant to what's happened since. I just heard an outright misleading report from CBS, so be careful out there. Best to read the actual messages and take them under context.

Post#961 gives us a better optic than news source
 
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QuarkFly
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:43 pm

Boeing has a lot to be worried about. I blame the whole McNerny era when Airbus ran circles around Boeing forcing the substandard MAX upon us. Sounds like real cultural rot at Boeing. Mullenberg may not be the real culprit, but he is an overpaid company man, when now, an outsider is needed to save the company.

This whole Boeing strategy of never-ending upgrades to the 1950/60's technology 737 must come to an end. A NSA must come before an NMA. And there is a small but not insignificant chance that the MAX may never carry passengers again...e.g EASA is pissed -- and China may not play nice due to other trade/tariff related reasons.
Always take the Red Eye if possible
 
Agrajag
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:45 pm

I bet Michael O'Leary is secretly very proud.
The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.
Slartibartfast had a point
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:45 pm

Well, if Boeing really wants to play chicken with the FAA they just have to announce a production cut to 20 per month effective Jan-2020 and watch the sparks fly, indeed, for such a cut they need to give their suppliers a couple months notice, so now would be the appropriate time.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:53 pm

sergegva wrote:
many321 wrote:
here is a transcript from the txt msgs...yeah, it looks bad.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... sages.html

"I'm levelling off at 4000 ft, 230 knots, and the plane is trimming itself like crazy. I'm like, WHAT?"

November 16th, 2016. :ill:


Make me a little queasy myself.
@DadCelo
 
Planetalk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:04 pm

Read those messages, and then consider that Boeing didn't think pilots should know about MCAS, didn't tell the FAA they had increased its control authority, and even after the second crash was trying to pull strings to stop the plane being grounded.

Of course, according to some here MCAS shouldn't be a problem for any half decent pilot. We can now add Boeing's own pilots who were testing the damn thing to the list of incompetent pilots I guess.

One wonders just how many skeleton's Boeing has in its closet, and not just on the 737. It seems unlikely they would behave like this in this instance and be completely scrupulous on everything else.

RIP.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:22 pm

par13del wrote:
Well, if Boeing really wants to play chicken with the FAA they just have to announce a production cut to 20 per month effective Jan-2020 and watch the sparks fly, indeed, for such a cut they need to give their suppliers a couple months notice, so now would be the appropriate time.


Cutting production would not be playing chicken with the FAA, but rather accepting realities.

Playing chicken is trying to get away with not fixing all the problems.
 
hivue
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:28 pm

Planetalk wrote:
Of course, according to some here MCAS shouldn't be a problem for any half decent pilot. We can now add Boeing's own pilots who were testing the damn thing to the list of incompetent pilots I guess.


From the transcript: "granted, I suck at flying..."
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
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william
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:34 pm

When the Max returns to the air, and it will. There will be not only a clean sweep of management, but the Board will have some new faces too.
 
DenverTed
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:35 pm

sharpley wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
mrbots wrote:

I saw that! I'm curious what exactly those IM's contained? I'd like to see the detail. I've been giving Boeing the benefit of the doubt on this all being gross incompetence until more evidence came to light. Assuming this isn't just an exaggeration by the news, this could turn into criminal negligence or fraud and if so people should be indicted if that's the case whether or not they're still at BA. Also, why weren't these turned over "some months ago" when they were discovered? Any idea what the FBI has discovered so far in their investigation? Time for a raid in Everett and Chicago?

There’s some more detail here: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/18/busi ... 69ing-news

Especially, there’s some very PO’d comments from the FAA’s Stephen Dickson. He has sent Muilenburg a letter saying “I expect your explanation immediately regarding the content of this document and Boeing’s delay in disclosing the document to its safety regulator.”

The letter in question can be seen on Jon Ostrower's twitter
https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 7008973826
Image

Dang. Add a couple more months to the grounding. Hopefully flying for the busy summer 2020 season.
 
WingsOfLove
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:36 pm

sergegva wrote:
I'm levelling off at 4000 ft, 230 knots, and the plane is trimming itself like crazy. I'm like, WHAT?
November 16th, 2016


How soon can Airbus increase world wide production?
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:36 pm

If the sim was running properly, accurately duplicating the MAX's flying qualities, then it indicates that Boeing was aware that MCAS was doing something that it shouldn't have, something that would presumably occur on the real aircraft. If the sim wasn't running properly, then Boeing knew that the sim wasn't providing proper data and they needed to go back and rerun their simulations, collect more data, etc. Am I evaluating this correctly?

Thanks,

Bob
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:46 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Digital privacy on a company network? It’s not like Boeing was spying on their personal phones or computers.

Given the format of the messages looks darn familiar, I guess they are using the Micro$oft $hit i.e. Skype for Business, Exchange, Outlook.
Basically, like it or not, admin can configure the system to save all Skype IMs to Exchange, then corporate governance probably requires these to be retained.

Planetalk wrote:
Of course, according to some here MCAS shouldn't be a problem for any half decent pilot. We can now add Boeing's own pilots who were testing the damn thing to the list of incompetent pilots I guess.

If you read the texts, these guys weren't "testing" per se, they were trying to figure out what needs to be documented and what goes in to the pilot training stream.
If you read the texts, it's clear they feel that the "test pilots" did not tell them enough about what the systems do.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:47 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Playing chicken is trying to get away with not fixing all the problems.


That of course requires the existence of other relevant problems.

Aptivaboy wrote:
If the sim was running properly, accurately duplicating the MAX's flying qualities, then it indicates that Boeing was aware that MCAS was doing something that it shouldn't have, something that would presumably occur on the real aircraft. If the sim wasn't running properly, then Boeing knew that the sim wasn't providing proper data and they needed to go back and rerun their simulations, collect more data, etc. Am I evaluating this correctly?

Thanks,

Bob


Clearly we're all guessing with so little context, but I don't think we can say it indicates that without knowing what they were simulating. If they were simulating an area of low speed flight, maybe it surprised Forkner. However we don't know if this was even a problem. Maybe the trimming was necessary and as designed, just not expected by him.

It doesn't sound like a simulator issue to me, but it can't be ruled out either. And again, that doesn't necessary mean there's a greater issue.
 
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zckls04
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:51 pm

This is why those people saying "the MAX will be the safest plane in the sky because of all the extra scrutiny" are deluding themselves. Fundamentally concealing this information shows Boeing have learned precisely nothing from the grounding and are still stuck in the mindset that they can just sweep this under the carpet.

As others have said, it's a cultural rot, and changing that requires excellent leadership, which seems absent at the moment.
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:57 pm

Mark Forkner 6:51 PM:
I'm levelling off at like 4000 ft, 230 knots and the plane is trimming itself like craxy I'm like, WHAT?

Gustavsson, Patrik H 6:52 PM:
that's what i saw on sim one, but on approach


So both pilot experienced the problem?

Gustavsson, Patrik H 6:51 PM:
Oh great, that means we have to update the speed trim descritption in vol 2


Well it wasn't updated. Not until after Lion Air anyway. Why?

Mark Forkner 6:51 PM:
so I basically lied to the regulators (unknowingly)


Time to put that right before EIS then. Was it?, it seems not until after Lion Air in any meaningful way. Why?

Ray
 
asdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:01 pm

Chemist wrote:
asdf wrote:
justloveplanes wrote:
Earlier in this thread there was a statement that the current stick force was created with a hydraulic (analog) computer. It seems it would be a simple thing to put in a multi-redundant fail safe non linearity valve with a pressure reserve to increase the stick force (pressure in the hydraulic line and leave it at that. Like an electronically adjustable shock absorber on a car. I guess it would need a pressure input if the stick was getting light. MCAS was much simpler and totally feasible IMHO, but since they got that wrong.....


Linear stick force is essential to be able to fly the plane safely manually.
Based on the resistance of the stick, the pilot senses which aerodynamic situation the aircraft is in and how it reacts to its inputs.

If this feedback about the stick is augmented then it is very difficult for the pilot to detect how his plane reacts
whether and to what extent this has played an additional role in the two crashes is unclear.

With fly-by-wire aircraft, there is generally no such feedback from the stick. You have to learn that and that gives a distinctly different control feeling for the pilot, but that is not uncertain.

what is uncertain and hardly realizable, is a feedback on the stick, but sometimes it is not the real but a fake
whether by influencing the elevators or by using a non-linear valve


Not intending to be argumentative, but on the one hand you say linear stick force is essential to fly safely manually, but then don't some FBW aircraft such as the A32x not have that, and yet you can fly them manually, is that not correct? Feels like a contradiction.


you can fly them with stick feeling
you can fly them without stick feeling

but its a bad idea to fly them with a partly augmented stick feeling
you act according to a wrong stick feeling
you act wrong
you crash
 
mpsrent
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:12 pm

Just imagine the information Boeing hasn't yet shared?
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:13 pm

hivue wrote:
Planetalk wrote:
Of course, according to some here MCAS shouldn't be a problem for any half decent pilot. We can now add Boeing's own pilots who were testing the damn thing to the list of incompetent pilots I guess.


From the transcript: "granted, I suck at flying..."

If were a sarcastic type, I might offer this observation - Boeing Chief Technical Pilot and his No. 2 must have been poorly trained in Africa or the far east or somewhere, and had not done 1500 hrs in a crop duster. Obviously did not know that all they had to was hit the cut-out switches tut, tut.

Ray
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:26 pm

MSPNWA wrote:

That of course requires the existence of other relevant problems.



Starting with the not properly working manual trim, keeping on with exceptions to FAR rules regarding the pilot machine interface, ....
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:29 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Starting with the not properly working manual trim, keeping on with exceptions to FAR rules regarding the pilot machine interface, ....


I said "relevant problem", not unconfirmed speculation of questionable relevance.

If that's the worst "problem" out there, it proves my point.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:32 pm

It is never a good day when the top article in WSJ is your company lying to the regulators...

This doesn't _necessarily_ change the engineering of what has to change in the aircraft & training, but this really isn't good. It puts a legal, ethical, and liability strain on the company and particularly its management. And there could more previously unknown things that are only now uncovered. I don't know about return to flight, but my prediction is that Muilenberg won't last the coming week as a CEO.
 
ubeema
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:48 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:42 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
It is never a good day when the top article in WSJ is your company lying to the regulators...

This doesn't _necessarily_ change the engineering of what has to change in the aircraft & training, but this really isn't good. It puts a legal, ethical, and liability strain on the company and particularly its management. And there could more previously unknown things that are only now uncovered. I don't know about return to flight, but my prediction is that Muilenberg won't last the coming week as a CEO.

Not so fast. DM is expected 10/29-30 at US congress hearings. Don’t expect him to be trick or treating afterwards. Nightmare is real enough.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9412
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:10 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Starting with the not properly working manual trim, keeping on with exceptions to FAR rules regarding the pilot machine interface, ....


I said "relevant problem", not unconfirmed speculation of questionable relevance.

If that's the worst "problem" out there, it proves my point.


The not properly working manual trim is not a speculation, but a fact, on the EASA list. The exceptions from the FAR pilot machine Interface rules are a fact. The cockpit error displays, error messages and so on do not fulfill current FARs, that is why all other Boeing frames moved to EICAS. Exactly what I am talking about, Boeing playing chicken.
 
SEU
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:21 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:11 pm

many321 wrote:
here is a transcript from the txt msgs...yeah, it looks bad.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... sages.html



"I basically lied to the relgulators"

"The MCAS is going rampant on me in the simulators"

"Its trimming itself like crazy"



Its actually horrible, i bet these two are feeling horrific after the two crashes
 
acechip
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:11 pm

Anyone reading this is also thinking, it’s good that Airbus and other minor players are also watching this sordid saga and going back to their production/ design teams to clean up their own act ? I guess it will be beneficial for the industry as a whole.
 
iamlucky13
Posts: 1263
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:35 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:25 pm

DenverTed wrote:
Dang. Add a couple more months to the grounding. Hopefully flying for the busy summer 2020 season.


Why? This relates to a question about who knew what, and when. Definitely an important question for the criminal investigation, which I suppose is why Boeing informed that team months ago. It's probably useful input for the safety investigation, too, so it's disappointing the FAA and NTSB were unaware.

However, what does this information change about the fix currently in work that would add months on to the grounding?

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