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danman132x
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 4:57 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:25 pm

SEU wrote:
many321 wrote:
here is a transcript from the txt msgs...yeah, it looks bad.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... sages.html



"I basically lied to the relgulators"

"The MCAS is going rampant on me in the simulators"

"Its trimming itself like crazy"



Its actually horrible, i bet these two are feeling horrific after the two crashes


Wow, man. That is crazy reading over that transcript. This puts it in a whole other ballpark. They knew about this problem way back and now this is coming out. Sends chills down my spine knowing so much negligence was happening..
 
sincx
Posts: 100
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:27 pm

acechip wrote:
Anyone reading this is also thinking, it’s good that Airbus and other minor players are also watching this sordid saga and going back to their production/ design teams to clean up their own act ? I guess it will be beneficial for the industry as a whole.


CAAC and COMAC better be paying attention to this.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:31 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
The not properly working manual trim is not a speculation, but a fact, on the EASA list. The exceptions from the FAR pilot machine Interface rules are a fact. The cockpit error displays, error messages and so on do not fulfill current FARs, that is why all other Boeing frames moved to EICAS. Exactly what I am talking about, Boeing playing chicken.


Oh the trim wheel debate is fact? Because a YouTube video that everyone has access to says so? And here I thought the EASA itself confirmed it as fact after an investigation. Let's just say it crosses step one, and now we'll move to step two--relevancy. How is it relevant with MCAS fixed? Because the EASA says so? If it is, why is the NG allowed to fly with the same alleged relevant problem? Ah, not so relevant anymore, expect for maybe keeping a foreign plane grounded obviously.

Oh, the pilot interface exception is now a factual, relevant issue worthy of grounding? Care to show up a link to where that is stated?

You are continuing to prove my point. Your claims are not relevant problems, let alone problems worthy of grounding. Every plane out there has "relevant problems" according to your broad definition. Forcing Boeing/etc. to prove that that there are no other issues isn't reasonable.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:32 pm

acechip wrote:
Anyone reading this is also thinking, it’s good that Airbus and other minor players are also watching this sordid saga and going back to their production/ design teams to clean up their own act ? I guess it will be beneficial for the industry as a whole.

Well, at least Airbus seem to do there work on the A32xneo differently than Boeing on the 737 MAX. https://leehamnews.com/2019/07/19/bjorns-corner-airbus-a321neo-has-pitch-up-issue/
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
shmerik
Posts: 68
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:39 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The not properly working manual trim is not a speculation, but a fact, on the EASA list. The exceptions from the FAR pilot machine Interface rules are a fact. The cockpit error displays, error messages and so on do not fulfill current FARs, that is why all other Boeing frames moved to EICAS. Exactly what I am talking about, Boeing playing chicken.


Oh the trim wheel debate is fact? Because a YouTube video that everyone has access to says so? And here I thought the EASA itself confirmed it as fact after an investigation. Let's just say it crosses step one, and now we'll move to step two--relevancy. How is it relevant with MCAS fixed? Because the EASA says so? If it is, why is the NG allowed to fly with the same alleged relevant problem? Ah, not so relevant anymore, expect for maybe keeping a foreign plane grounded obviously.

Oh, the pilot interface exception is now a factual, relevant issue worthy of grounding? Care to show up a link to where that is stated?

You are continuing to prove my point. Your claims are not relevant problems, let alone problems worthy of grounding. Every plane out there has "relevant problems" according to your broad definition. Forcing Boeing/etc. to prove that that there are no other issues isn't reasonable.


After all this time and all the information that's been released you think that this is about keeping a foreign plane grounded? Seriously?

You haven't lost any trust towards Boeing after watching their behavior this past year?
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:47 pm

shmerik wrote:
After all this time and all the information that's been released you think that this is about keeping a foreign plane grounded? Seriously?


No, I don't think so, but we can't discount the possibility with the clear logical errors in the statements from the EASA. Yes, that is serious.

shmerik wrote:
You haven't lost any trust towards Boeing after watching their behavior this past year?


There's a lot of entities that are less trustworthy in my view. Boeing is one of them. Any other traps you'd like to try?
 
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smittythepirate
Posts: 203
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:51 pm

hivue wrote:
Planetalk wrote:
Of course, according to some here MCAS shouldn't be a problem for any half decent pilot. We can now add Boeing's own pilots who were testing the damn thing to the list of incompetent pilots I guess.


From the transcript: "granted, I suck at flying..."


I can't believe people are taking this any way other than sarcasm. Especially when the whole sentence reads “Granted, I suck at flying, but even this was egregious,” The guy has decades of flight experience
www.jbweather.com
 
subramak1
Posts: 196
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:52 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Unfortunately the other thread was deleted instead of merged, but the 1st-hand reading of the messages is a lot less sensational than the media portrayals. The exchange is lacking in context, and without it, it's only a guess as to whether it's even relevant to what's happened since. I just heard an outright misleading report from CBS, so be careful out there. Best to read the actual messages and take them under context.


What we are missing is the other context around these messages. Hopefully, we will get that and be wiser for it. But this does show Boeing in a bad light. This text means the pay out Boeing will have to make is going to be terrible.

Thanks, Subu
 
sphealey
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 12:39 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:53 pm

SEU wrote:
many321 wrote:
here is a transcript from the txt msgs...yeah, it looks bad.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... sages.html


"I basically lied to the relgulators"

"The MCAS is going rampant on me in the simulators"

"Its trimming itself like crazy"

Its actually horrible, i bet these two are feeling horrific after the two crashes

You altered that quote from the transcript in a pretty ugly way. The exact quote is

""I basically lied to the regulators (inadvertently)"

Omitting the word 'inadvertently' and the context of the rest of the conversation dramatically changes the overall meaning.
 
rosterdriven
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:53 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:59 pm

shmeerik you got the point. This guys missed the point. The classic 37 i flew was the end of a stretch to a concept like the 727 with short legs allowing engines at the time beeing placed under the wing. Grandfather rights allowed the development of an airframe beyond certification.
The lack of up to date information to Crews made things not better.
Just one question, why the hell made this guys the 37 so different to modern Boeing planes we fly today?
 
Planetalk
Posts: 470
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:59 pm

smittythepirate wrote:
hivue wrote:
Planetalk wrote:
Of course, according to some here MCAS shouldn't be a problem for any half decent pilot. We can now add Boeing's own pilots who were testing the damn thing to the list of incompetent pilots I guess.


From the transcript: "granted, I suck at flying..."


I can't believe people are taking this any way other than sarcasm. Especially when the whole sentence reads “Granted, I suck at flying, but even this was egregious,” The guy has decades of flight experience


I'm quite sure the poster you've quoted was being entirely tongue in cheek themselves, seems you can miss the sarcasm too ;)
 
Planetalk
Posts: 470
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:05 am

sphealey wrote:
SEU wrote:
many321 wrote:
here is a transcript from the txt msgs...yeah, it looks bad.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... sages.html


"I basically lied to the relgulators"

"The MCAS is going rampant on me in the simulators"

"Its trimming itself like crazy"

Its actually horrible, i bet these two are feeling horrific after the two crashes

You altered that quote from the transcript in a pretty ugly way. The exact quote is

""I basically lied to the regulators (inadvertently)"

Omitting the word 'inadvertently' and the context of the rest of the conversation dramatically changes the overall meaning.



While that's true, it also depends whether anyone corrected the 'lie', or shall we say incorrect information, with the FAA afterwards. If no-one did, and from what we know about Boeing communication to the FAA regarding MCAS operation that is very possible, then this becomes very damning indeed.
 
shmerik
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun May 05, 2019 2:28 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:45 am

MSPNWA wrote:
shmerik wrote:
After all this time and all the information that's been released you think that this is about keeping a foreign plane grounded? Seriously?


No, I don't think so, but we can't discount the possibility with the clear logical errors in the statements from the EASA. Yes, that is serious.

shmerik wrote:
You haven't lost any trust towards Boeing after watching their behavior this past year?


There's a lot of entities that are less trustworthy in my view. Boeing is one of them. Any other traps you'd like to try?


What logical inconsistencies? Genuinely asking, not refuting that they exist.

Also I'm not sure what you mean by a trap... I saw your post saying that you thought that headlines were overblown after reading the text of the messages and then the one I responded to seemingly saying that Boeing is doing nothing worse than any other companies out there and am simply confused as to how someone could still think Boeing is acting in good faith.

I was tired of all the posts defending B fairly early on in this debacle due to my experience in software dev within the aerospace industry but was still holding out hope that Boeing made an honest mistake (in spite of all of the reports and evidence otherwise) but in light of the transcript I don't understand how anyone could still believe that they didn't have a full understanding of the scope of the danger of MCAS
 
planecane
Posts: 1585
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:46 am

sphealey wrote:
SEU wrote:
many321 wrote:
here is a transcript from the txt msgs...yeah, it looks bad.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... sages.html


"I basically lied to the relgulators"

"The MCAS is going rampant on me in the simulators"

"Its trimming itself like crazy"

Its actually horrible, i bet these two are feeling horrific after the two crashes

You altered that quote from the transcript in a pretty ugly way. The exact quote is

""I basically lied to the regulators (inadvertently)"

Omitting the word 'inadvertently' and the context of the rest of the conversation dramatically changes the overall meaning.


I think the context was that he told the regulators to leave MCAS out of the FCOM because it would so rarely kick in. He did this based on it being a high speed system. When he realized it was active down to mach 0.2, he realized that the information he gave to regulators was not correct.

It wasn't a "lie" in the sense of something nefarious. It was a "lie" in hindsight when he found out his information was wrong. Now, if there was no correction then he must be questioned further.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4338
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:59 am

smittythepirate wrote:
hivue wrote:
Planetalk wrote:
Of course, according to some here MCAS shouldn't be a problem for any half decent pilot. We can now add Boeing's own pilots who were testing the damn thing to the list of incompetent pilots I guess.


From the transcript: "granted, I suck at flying..."


I can't believe people are taking this any way other than sarcasm. Especially when the whole sentence reads “Granted, I suck at flying, but even this was egregious,” The guy has decades of flight experience


Agree. It’s akin to a professional musician missing a key or note during a warm up rehearsal and saying “wow I suck, let’s start again from the top”.

I don’t think anyone would take it at face value that Billy Joel for example is actually terrible at the piano.
 
DenverTed
Posts: 506
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:59 am

iamlucky13 wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
Dang. Add a couple more months to the grounding. Hopefully flying for the busy summer 2020 season.


Why? This relates to a question about who knew what, and when. Definitely an important question for the criminal investigation, which I suppose is why Boeing informed that team months ago. It's probably useful input for the safety investigation, too, so it's disappointing the FAA and NTSB were unaware.

However, what does this information change about the fix currently in work that would add months on to the grounding?

I think more distrust of Boeing's transparency will slow down the FAA's expediency of agreement. But I agree that logically it should have no bearing. Aside from, what other unkown unknowns are in Boeing's closet.

The pilots are held to the black box and CVR, while the Boeing design process is shrouded. Until all the actions and words of the test pilots, chief pilots and designers are available to the FAA, Boeing is burning their own time at a billion a month or whatever it is.
 
morrisond
Posts: 2861
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:59 am

shmerik wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
shmerik wrote:
After all this time and all the information that's been released you think that this is about keeping a foreign plane grounded? Seriously?


No, I don't think so, but we can't discount the possibility with the clear logical errors in the statements from the EASA. Yes, that is serious.

shmerik wrote:
You haven't lost any trust towards Boeing after watching their behavior this past year?


There's a lot of entities that are less trustworthy in my view. Boeing is one of them. Any other traps you'd like to try?


What logical inconsistencies? Genuinely asking, not refuting that they exist.

Also I'm not sure what you mean by a trap... I saw your post saying that you thought that headlines were overblown after reading the text of the messages and then the one I responded to seemingly saying that Boeing is doing nothing worse than any other companies out there and am simply confused as to how someone could still think Boeing is acting in good faith.

I was tired of all the posts defending B fairly early on in this debacle due to my experience in software dev within the aerospace industry but was still holding out hope that Boeing made an honest mistake (in spite of all of the reports and evidence otherwise) but in light of the transcript I don't understand how anyone could still believe that they didn't have a full understanding of the scope of the danger of MCAS


What we don't know is if they made further changes to MCAS after this email. Obviously they didn't make enough but we don't know what version of MCAS they were talking about and we don't really know what phase of flight they were in or what they were trying to do in the SIM.

Taken out of context it could be read many ways.

I'm sure in the development of any airliner you will find many communications like this.
 
Ugly51
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:13 am

I presume that the IM's between the Test Pilot's was from Boeings company server. Is this the same guy who took the 5th Amendment rather than incriminate himself?
I see the plaintiffs lawyers rubbing there hands with glee now.
This is gonna cost Boeing big time one way or the other.
 
ubeema
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:14 am

morrisond wrote:
I'm sure in the development of any airliner you will find many communications like this.
and how many can be almost directly linked to 2 crashes/346 fatalities?
 
maint123
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:19 am

These 2 guys were not the test pilots, flew infrequently and faced the MCAS problem, so the question is the test pilots who flew the max a lot more would surely have faced similar issues ? Any information from the test pilots?
No mention of whether any sensors were disabled/modified during their sim experience? Did they face this trim down phenomenon even with the AOA feedback being correct ? If yes, then AOA is just a red herring to cover up the real issues.
 
sphealey
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:29 am

ubeema wrote:
morrisond wrote:
I'm sure in the development of any airliner you will find many communications like this.
and how many can be almost directly linked to 2 crashes/346 fatalities?

That line of analysis is vulnerable to survivorship bias however.
 
shmerik
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:49 am

morrisond wrote:
shmerik wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:

No, I don't think so, but we can't discount the possibility with the clear logical errors in the statements from the EASA. Yes, that is serious.



There's a lot of entities that are less trustworthy in my view. Boeing is one of them. Any other traps you'd like to try?


What logical inconsistencies? Genuinely asking, not refuting that they exist.

Also I'm not sure what you mean by a trap... I saw your post saying that you thought that headlines were overblown after reading the text of the messages and then the one I responded to seemingly saying that Boeing is doing nothing worse than any other companies out there and am simply confused as to how someone could still think Boeing is acting in good faith.

I was tired of all the posts defending B fairly early on in this debacle due to my experience in software dev within the aerospace industry but was still holding out hope that Boeing made an honest mistake (in spite of all of the reports and evidence otherwise) but in light of the transcript I don't understand how anyone could still believe that they didn't have a full understanding of the scope of the danger of MCAS


What we don't know is if they made further changes to MCAS after this email. Obviously they didn't make enough but we don't know what version of MCAS they were talking about and we don't really know what phase of flight they were in or what they were trying to do in the SIM.

Taken out of context it could be read many ways.

I'm sure in the development of any airliner you will find many communications like this.


While this is true we've been consistently given a context in which we can judge these statements in the time since the first MAX splashed down into an ocean.

It's looking less and less like poorly timed communications from Boeing and more that they are actively hiding the extent to which they worked to obfuscate known issues with MCAS.
 
aaexecplat
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:04 am

Aptivaboy wrote:
If the sim was running properly, accurately duplicating the MAX's flying qualities, then it indicates that Boeing was aware that MCAS was doing something that it shouldn't have, something that would presumably occur on the real aircraft. If the sim wasn't running properly, then Boeing knew that the sim wasn't providing proper data and they needed to go back and rerun their simulations, collect more data, etc. Am I evaluating this correctly?

Thanks,

Bob


One thing that slightly puzzles me is that these pilots were flying in the MAX simulators and finding MCAS trim issue, but my understanding was that MAX simulators sold to operators DID NOT simulate MCAS at all? Did Boeing edit out MCAS in the simulators sold to operators?
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:21 am

mjoelnir wrote:
par13del wrote:
Well, if Boeing really wants to play chicken with the FAA they just have to announce a production cut to 20 per month effective Jan-2020 and watch the sparks fly, indeed, for such a cut they need to give their suppliers a couple months notice, so now would be the appropriate time.


Cutting production would not be playing chicken with the FAA, but rather accepting realities.

Playing chicken is trying to get away with not fixing all the problems.

The potential financial impact of a big cut in production would see third parties put pressure on the FAA is resolve the issue, it may even push them to not wait for all regulators ungrounding at the same time. It may get some changes pushed to the production line after the a/c returns to flight.
 
Canuck600
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:53 am

aaexecplat wrote:
Aptivaboy wrote:
If the sim was running properly, accurately duplicating the MAX's flying qualities, then it indicates that Boeing was aware that MCAS was doing something that it shouldn't have, something that would presumably occur on the real aircraft. If the sim wasn't running properly, then Boeing knew that the sim wasn't providing proper data and they needed to go back and rerun their simulations, collect more data, etc. Am I evaluating this correctly?

Thanks,

Bob


One thing that slightly puzzles me is that these pilots were flying in the MAX simulators and finding MCAS trim issue, but my understanding was that MAX simulators sold to operators DID NOT simulate MCAS at all? Did Boeing edit out MCAS in the simulators sold to operators?


Boeing doesn't build the simulators that the airlines use, companies like CAE do.
 
9w748capt
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Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:05 am

aaexecplat wrote:
Aptivaboy wrote:
If the sim was running properly, accurately duplicating the MAX's flying qualities, then it indicates that Boeing was aware that MCAS was doing something that it shouldn't have, something that would presumably occur on the real aircraft. If the sim wasn't running properly, then Boeing knew that the sim wasn't providing proper data and they needed to go back and rerun their simulations, collect more data, etc. Am I evaluating this correctly?

Thanks,

Bob


One thing that slightly puzzles me is that these pilots were flying in the MAX simulators and finding MCAS trim issue, but my understanding was that MAX simulators sold to operators DID NOT simulate MCAS at all? Did Boeing edit out MCAS in the simulators sold to operators?


Holy crap. Is there a source stating as such? That is utterly insane and unbelievable. But so much of this saga is.
 
LDRA
Posts: 329
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:01 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:17 am

many321 wrote:
here is a transcript from the txt msgs...yeah, it looks bad.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... sages.html

The whole script is more damning than the headline. Even Boeing company pilots on 737 Max program were kept out of loop on MCAS design changes...
 
CX747
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:24 am

The 737 Max will fly in revenue service again. It has taken time and fixes but every day is another day closer. Looking at most carriers schedules, it seems like actual revenue service beginning again in early 2020, which means maintenance, test flights and every thing else necessary to get the birds airworthy again will begin in late 2019.

The pilots statements are eye catching....If you read the article though, it seems like a little spit and polish to catch someone's eye and go WOW!!! Other items completely not mentioned in texts I've seen are that the guy also writes that he is drinking AND the fact that the simator he flew had issues PLUS the fact the recipient of his alcohol powered texts doesn't agree with his statements. Plus, no where is he coming forward screaming about being the lone whistleblower on a fraudulent program. So, plenty to chew on. Something to read? Maybe. Something that changes the fixes that have been made and changes put in place? No.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:27 am

Soon after the ET crash, a large debate came to be on this website.
Many were saying that the thing should be grounded, and many others said otherwise.
Boeing, the FAA, American pilot unions insisted that everything was fine, thankfully the "clown" as media like to call him, stepped in and grounded the thing in the US as well, avoiding another tragedy.

We can now all be glad and proud to have been part of the pressure that forced the grounding, those of us who did.

Better safe than sorry. Unfortunately many "professionals" in this industry preach this value in public while in reality they have no idea of what they're doing.

I'm also happy that we could pressure and save Boeing from being destroyed, considering that top management wanted to keep hundreds of these flying in the US. If we go by the statistics, by now we should have had another hole in the ground, another planeload of casualties, and if it happened in the US, Boeing at risk of failling through lawsuits.

Mr. Dennis can't be blamed for the first crash, CEOs cant know everything. Perhaps even not for the second.
But he can be blamed for the third crash, that fortunately didn't happen.
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:08 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Soon after the ET crash, a large debate came to be on this website.
Many were saying that the thing should be grounded, and many others said otherwise.
Boeing, the FAA, American pilot unions insisted that everything was fine, thankfully the "clown" as media like to call him, stepped in and grounded the thing in the US as well, avoiding another tragedy.

Yeah, that's what happened. But I don't believe one minute that it was Mr. Trump who suddenly got the idea to ground the MAX in the USA.

No. Instead the FAA or DOT called 1600 Pennsylvania Ave Oval Room and said: "We were too fast, we have done a terrible mistake, please help us, please issue one more tweet for us".

"All we need is that the discussion won't be whether the FAA has an internal fight going on, or whether FAA and DOT disagrees. Therefore please issue this tweet immediately".

Trump understood the seriousness of the issue, did what was asked for, and we avoided immediate fruitless discussions in the press about what individuals in which agency were responsible for the blunder, so the substance of the real issue could take front seat from day one.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
SEU
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:21 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:10 am

aaexecplat wrote:
Aptivaboy wrote:
If the sim was running properly, accurately duplicating the MAX's flying qualities, then it indicates that Boeing was aware that MCAS was doing something that it shouldn't have, something that would presumably occur on the real aircraft. If the sim wasn't running properly, then Boeing knew that the sim wasn't providing proper data and they needed to go back and rerun their simulations, collect more data, etc. Am I evaluating this correctly?

Thanks,

Bob


One thing that slightly puzzles me is that these pilots were flying in the MAX simulators and finding MCAS trim issue, but my understanding was that MAX simulators sold to operators DID NOT simulate MCAS at all? Did Boeing edit out MCAS in the simulators sold to operators?


They probably never told the makers of the simulators about it
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:41 am

SEU wrote:
aaexecplat wrote:
Aptivaboy wrote:
If the sim was running properly, accurately duplicating the MAX's flying qualities, then it indicates that Boeing was aware that MCAS was doing something that it shouldn't have, something that would presumably occur on the real aircraft. If the sim wasn't running properly, then Boeing knew that the sim wasn't providing proper data and they needed to go back and rerun their simulations, collect more data, etc. Am I evaluating this correctly?

Thanks,

Bob


One thing that slightly puzzles me is that these pilots were flying in the MAX simulators and finding MCAS trim issue, but my understanding was that MAX simulators sold to operators DID NOT simulate MCAS at all? Did Boeing edit out MCAS in the simulators sold to operators?


They probably never told the makers of the simulators about it

Yes. The gist of it, as I understand, is that Boeing supplies the specifications, the information about how the plane flies, and the sim manufacturer builds the sim based on that. That’s obviously a simplification of the process, but accurate, I believe. So, if the sim’s don’t emulate something correctly, MCAS or trim wheel loads (or anything else?), it’s most likely because Boeing didn’t supply accurate information.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:57 am

morrisond wrote:
shmerik wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:

No, I don't think so, but we can't discount the possibility with the clear logical errors in the statements from the EASA. Yes, that is serious.



There's a lot of entities that are less trustworthy in my view. Boeing is one of them. Any other traps you'd like to try?


What logical inconsistencies? Genuinely asking, not refuting that they exist.

Also I'm not sure what you mean by a trap... I saw your post saying that you thought that headlines were overblown after reading the text of the messages and then the one I responded to seemingly saying that Boeing is doing nothing worse than any other companies out there and am simply confused as to how someone could still think Boeing is acting in good faith.

I was tired of all the posts defending B fairly early on in this debacle due to my experience in software dev within the aerospace industry but was still holding out hope that Boeing made an honest mistake (in spite of all of the reports and evidence otherwise) but in light of the transcript I don't understand how anyone could still believe that they didn't have a full understanding of the scope of the danger of MCAS


What we don't know is if they made further changes to MCAS after this email. Obviously they didn't make enough but we don't know what version of MCAS they were talking about and we don't really know what phase of flight they were in or what they were trying to do in the SIM.

Taken out of context it could be read many ways.

I'm sure in the development of any airliner you will find many communications like this.

The bombshell is that the chief technical pilot comes to understand that MCAS has been changed to operate over the speed range all the way down to 0.2 Mach. Thus, the system is no longer what he represented it to be, to the FAA. He realizes this, and yet we know that Boeing never went back to the FAA to say anything about the change. So, now we have definitive proof of at least two Boeing employees with knowledge of the changes to MCAS, and who are in a position to understand that this is something which ought to be reported to the FAA.

The precise version of MCAS is really irrelevant, given that this aspect they are discussing is known to have been a part of MCAS 1.0.

Boeing can no longer be given the benefit of the doubt that this was some sort of honest mistake. Here we have employees who acknowledge and understand the issue. Now, the only thing we don’t know is whether these guys reported upwards, and management further up decided not to report to the FAA, or if these guys kept it to themselves.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:45 am

Ok the thing that has me scratching my head is the “Oh shocker alerT” before the “MCAS is now active down to M .2” part. it set a tone in which it seemed like none of this “running rampant” or anything was really a surprise. And seeing how this message thread goes nothing really is a surprise; the pressure that is being placed on getting this project done is evident, the general feeling by employees that their product is subpar is evident when the one guy says, “I’d ask for a job in sales where I can just get paid to drink with customers and lie about how awesome our airplanes are”, and of course the knowledge of what malice MCAS is capable of is there also.

Another angle people don’t see is that they are talking about sims here not planes and there is the possibility that they are discussing how the sim is not functioning properly. Given the description of what the problem is however, it is freakishly the real issues MCAS has had and it still further proves that they changed it without notifying any certifying authority.

If this is what it looks like it’s just sad at this point. They way they talk about their work as though it’s some hopeless endeavour or it’s a disaster. It’s not the first time too, I remember one of those Al Jazeera documentary (well maybe heading a little towards crockumentary) where one of the factory workers claimed something along the lines of them not building planes to fly but just to sell.
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T PA-28-180

2 ears for spatial hearing, 2 eyes for depth perception, 2 ears for balance... How did Boeing think 1 sensor was good enough?!
 
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767333ER
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:47 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
Soon after the ET crash, a large debate came to be on this website.
Many were saying that the thing should be grounded, and many others said otherwise.
Boeing, the FAA, American pilot unions insisted that everything was fine, thankfully the "clown" as media like to call him, stepped in and grounded the thing in the US as well, avoiding another tragedy.

We can now all be glad and proud to have been part of the pressure that forced the grounding, those of us who did.

Better safe than sorry. Unfortunately many "professionals" in this industry preach this value in public while in reality they have no idea of what they're doing.

I'm also happy that we could pressure and save Boeing from being destroyed, considering that top management wanted to keep hundreds of these flying in the US. If we go by the statistics, by now we should have had another hole in the ground, another planeload of casualties, and if it happened in the US, Boeing at risk of failling through lawsuits.

Mr. Dennis can't be blamed for the first crash, CEOs cant know everything. Perhaps even not for the second.
But he can be blamed for the third crash, that fortunately didn't happen.

This is actually very interesting take and it does have me thinking. Did President Trump really step in or did he just do someone a favour?
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T PA-28-180

2 ears for spatial hearing, 2 eyes for depth perception, 2 ears for balance... How did Boeing think 1 sensor was good enough?!
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 999
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:52 am

QuarkFly wrote:
This whole Boeing strategy of never-ending upgrades to the 1950/60's technology 737 must come to an end.

Yes, indeed.

From the deleted thread:

A320FlyGuy wrote:
kiowa wrote:
Yikes. The FAA is not without blame though. It is another reason for me to avoid the 737 and it’s many variants. (...)

The fact that they didn’t disclose this system and the FAA felt that it was acceptable to delete any and all mention of a flight control system that has a single point of failure and there is little to no training provided is inexcusable.

Isn't this what it's all about?

We have hundreds of pages filled with discussion. We hear the Max is safe or will be the safest aircraft ever.

I don't believe that. To me it's clear that Boeing took the design of the 737 one step too far, unfortunately.

By now it would probably have been cheaper to develop a completely new design.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:00 am

Agrajag wrote:
I bet Michael O'Leary is secretly very proud.

What did he say or do?
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:03 am

DenverTed wrote:
Hopefully flying for the busy summer 2020 season.

Hopefully never to fly again. We need a clean sheet design. And more Boeing 737 NG's in the meantime.
 
MigPilot
Posts: 49
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:13 am

CX747 wrote:
Other items completely not mentioned in texts I've seen are that the guy also writes that he is drinking AND the fact that the simator he flew had issues PLUS the fact the recipient of his alcohol powered texts doesn't agree with his statements


The fact that he (might) have been drunk when he said what he said is even more concerning. There is a reason for the saying 'only drunks and children tell the truth'.
 
Aither
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:41 am

In a way It's kind of reassuring that employees found the issue. It shows the testings are not done by totally incompetent people.
The big question is what happened next ?
Never trust the obvious
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:45 am

Aither wrote:
In a way It's kind of reassuring that employees found the issue. It shows the testings are not done by totally incompetent people.
The big question is what happened next ?


But more worrying - the company knew but ignored it.
 
MigPilot
Posts: 49
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:49 am

Aither wrote:
In a way It's kind of reassuring that employees found the issue. It shows the testings are not done by totally incompetent people.
The big question is what happened next ?

Two customers also found the issue.
 
sgrow787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:07 am

aerolimani wrote:
SEU wrote:
aaexecplat wrote:

One thing that slightly puzzles me is that these pilots were flying in the MAX simulators and finding MCAS trim issue, but my understanding was that MAX simulators sold to operators DID NOT simulate MCAS at all? Did Boeing edit out MCAS in the simulators sold to operators?


They probably never told the makers of the simulators about it

Yes. The gist of it, as I understand, is that Boeing supplies the specifications, the information about how the plane flies, and the sim manufacturer builds the sim based on that. That’s obviously a simplification of the process, but accurate, I believe. So, if the sim’s don’t emulate something correctly, MCAS or trim wheel loads (or anything else?), it’s most likely because Boeing didn’t supply accurate information.


I haven't worked on developing flight sims, but I would expect at minimum the sim would be using the real FCC hardware, with the ADIRU and other sensor inputs being simulated. There's enough engineering just calculating flight path and incorporating that into a 3D virtual reality on a screen.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
astuteman
Posts: 7184
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:48 am

Aither wrote:
In a way It's kind of reassuring that employees found the issue. It shows the testings are not done by totally incompetent people.
The big question is what happened next ?


This is the bit that tweaks me.
I generally stay off these threads because they are typically toxic, depressing, repetitive, and unnaturally fixated with global training standards

But you look at the Boeing commercial product range and they are all almost universally safety benchmarks for their class.
Boeing 777? Benchmark safety
Boeing 787? Benchmark safety
Most tellingly
Boeing 737NG? Benchmark safety. I get the trim wheel thing, but the stats don't lie. 10's of millions of flights between fatal accidents.

Boeing clearly know how to operate a product certification process successfully, and it is testament to all those hard working and dedicated Boeing employees that they do so.
And that is the disturbing, and I presume upsetting, thing about the fatal MAX/MCAS saga for those dedicated employees.

The commercial pressure has clearly caused Boeing to behave differently in this case, and turn both a safe product and a safe certification process into unsafe ones.
There is no way that the system that certified the above families of aircraft when properly deployed would have allowed a change to control architecture with a seriously unacceptable failure probability, and an even more seriously unacceptable failure severity impact.
I've worked in such a regulatory environment all my life.
That sort of paradigm shift doesn't happen randomly.

Someone, somewhere in Boeing is very seriously culpable here, and for clarity, it isn't the line employees or flight test pilots. It's leadership.

ALL of their other products are so fundamentally safe that the same pilot pool who have been so heavily castigated on here are capable of flying all of them to exemplar levels of safety, despite genuine concerns that training levels are being eroded.
With the MAX, the differentiator is not the pilots - it's the aircraft, and its manufacturer.
Beyond question.

And for the poster above who appears to imply that the whole MAX saga is a conspiracy theory cooked up by EASA to stop the MAX flying in Europe I have only one observation.

Emotionally intelligent people, and organisations, once they recognise that something is seriously wrong, will typically bare their chests (or souls) and openly declare their weaknesses and solicit help to overcome them.
The multinational I work for having been implicated in a bribery scandal, bared its chest, and opened its soul to investigators. Its changed our corporate DNA forever.
When Airbus got caught up in the same type of bribery scandal, they too bared their chests.
At least if you are open and transparent, you get to keep at least one hand on the sword as you fall on it.

Boeing leadership have just not exhibited this behaviour.
And whilst the situation remains so opaque, you can bet your ass that the inevitable consequence is that external bodies will turn over the stones that Boeing don't seem to want to turn by themselves.
Trust, once broken, is surpassingly hard to rebuild, and will only be repaired once the appropriate openness, honesty and admission of culpability are displayed.
That's just reality.

I think it's really, really sad for the oh so many people at Boeing doing their best to make this right. My thoughts and best wishes are with you (as they also are with the families of the victims)

Poster Revelation posted early on in the saga wondering if the Boeing leadership's "hang on and brazen it out" approach would prove successful in the long term.
Rev, have you had any more thoughts on this?

Rgds
 
Strato2
Posts: 565
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:49 am

At this point and with these latest revelations I'm just happy to be alive from the Norwegian MAX flight I took in January. One wonders what else have they brushed under the carpet besides the MCAS. Rest assured I will not be boarding Boeing MAX ever again.
 
Guillaume787
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:02 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:07 am

MartijnNL wrote:
QuarkFly wrote:
This whole Boeing strategy of never-ending upgrades to the 1950/60's technology 737 must come to an end.

Yes, indeed.

From the deleted thread:

A320FlyGuy wrote:
kiowa wrote:
Yikes. The FAA is not without blame though. It is another reason for me to avoid the 737 and it’s many variants. (...)

The fact that they didn’t disclose this system and the FAA felt that it was acceptable to delete any and all mention of a flight control system that has a single point of failure and there is little to no training provided is inexcusable.

Isn't this what it's all about?

We have hundreds of pages filled with discussion. We hear the Max is safe or will be the safest aircraft ever.

I don't believe that. To me it's clear that Boeing took the design of the 737 one step too far, unfortunately.

By now it would probably have been cheaper to develop a completely new design.


Apologies in advance for the silly question but why was the thread on the Boeing pilot’s messages deleted? Anyone or a moderator know? I would understand being merged into this thread (or locked if discussions got heavy) but deleted altogether??
 
maint123
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:20 am

Aither wrote:
In a way It's kind of reassuring that employees found the issue. It shows the testings are not done by totally incompetent people.
The big question is what happened next ?

Testing is done in multiple ways in the real world.
1. Intent to pass.
2. Intent to fail.
3. Neutral.

Happens very frequently in the technical field that a product goes into the market with a " will work adequately" certification, rather than a "will work perfectly" . And Even with the best of intentions, honest mistakes occur.
But in this case it seems all the warning signs were brushed under the carpet and even worse, after the first crash, the people in the know tried to hide the issues with a perfectly safe certification.
Eventually the laws of physics will do the best testing.
 
ACATROYAL
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:25 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:25 am

Strato2 wrote:
At this point and with these latest revelations I'm just happy to be alive from the Norwegian MAX flight I took in January. One wonders what else have they brushed under the carpet besides the MCAS. Rest assured I will not be boarding Boeing MAX ever again.


Yes I totally agree!! I also wonder what other little demons they decided to quietly cover up...
 
Alfons
Posts: 310
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:17 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:36 am

ACATROYAL wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
At this point and with these latest revelations I'm just happy to be alive from the Norwegian MAX flight I took in January. One wonders what else have they brushed under the carpet besides the MCAS. Rest assured I will not be boarding Boeing MAX ever again.


Yes I totally agree!! I also wonder what other little demons they decided to quietly cover up...


I don't think there are many other little demons. There are so many past Boeing employees who came out of their holes lately and started to divulge information about things not kosher on the MAX which are case related. I believe that other would have come out too, if there'd be other little demons about the MAX which are not related to the new engines and MCAS. But I hear nothing else... .

I'm more scared about any future clean sheet designs (777x etc.), if they have been created by the same corporate culture.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:52 am

astuteman wrote:
I think it's really, really sad for the oh so many people at Boeing doing their best to make this right. My thoughts and best wishes are with you (as they also are with the families of the victims)


Your post is spot on, Astuteman.

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