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rheinwaldner
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:49 pm

Guillaume787 wrote:
Boeing would like to deliver its 737 MAX jet before the end of the year to some airlines, even as aviation regulators have yet to approve pilot training:

https://www-wsj-com.cdn.ampproject.org/ ... 1573421213

I think, Boeing would like to deliver all stored MAX today.
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shmerik
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:25 pm

par13del wrote:
Guillaume787 wrote:
Boeing would like to deliver its 737 MAX jet before the end of the year to some airlines, even as aviation regulators have yet to approve pilot training:

https://www-wsj-com.cdn.ampproject.org/ ... 1573421213


Second question, why would any airline take an a/c that they cannot fly commercially and pay parking and storage fees? The better moral and financial position for Boeing to take is a major reduction in their production rate if they are running out of parking space, I suspect the article is a result of a slow news day. The other thing that we know is that airlines who already operate the MAX and have additional a/c on order awaiting delivery have already stated that they will put into commercial use new build a/c direct from the production line while taking their time to restore a/c that have been stored for months. Based on that, what sense does it make to take more a/c and park them potentially for a month or 3 months, as December 2019 to March 2020 is the moving time line for RTS.

If Boeing had reduced the rate below 42 initially they would not be in the position they are now, I suspect we will never see the actual financial numbers related to lower production rate and the cost to ramp up after RTS. What we will see is the actual result on the operation of the higher production rate. Boeing will have close to a years worth of a/c sitting around requiring update and preparation for delivery to clients, including test flights by Boeing and the client, all this has to be done in parallel with ongoing production. Boeing is already hiring temp staff at Moses Lake, I think in general these are workers who will prepare the a/c for delivery, have we seen anything on them hiring additional test pilots, how easy is that if they have to be certified? How many FAA approved inspectors are available to review the paperwork before approval for delivery, is the FAA even factoring their resources required once RTS is given or will they simply say they are not hiring new staff and will work at the same pre-grounding rate? We have already seen speculation that the backlog will be cleared in 2020, I suspect it will go to 2021, and if there is continued economic slow down due to the tariff wars, it may drag on even longer.


I thought it was odd that Boeing hadn't slowed down production earlier in this entire process too for a while, but recently came across this article and apparently they have a history of manufacturing regardless of the state of the certification process:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... reamliner/

DeFazio’s letter notes that the FAA just last month asked Boeing to perform a “risk assessment of the fuel tank explosion risk from lightning related ignition sources” on the 787 and “to determine if any corrective actions to reduce the risk of a fuel tank explosion should be required.”

However, it laments that this action is so late.

And DeFazio adds that “Boeing reportedly produced approximately 40 airplanes prior to the FAA’s approval of the design change.” He says this “suggests either willful neglect of the Federal aviation regulatory structure or an oversight system in need of desperate repair.”
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:52 pm

maint123 wrote:
Has the justice department started any investigation for negligence if not culpable homicide ? No one seems to remember that 350 persons lost their lives, and at least half could have been saved if Boeing had been transparent after the first crash and not resorted to shirking responsibility. And the posters above defending Boeing should remember that trump initiated the max shutdown after the 2nd crash not Boeing. Their CEO said its a safe plane even after the 2nd crash.
Its mind boggling that no serious criminal investigation is being carried out by USA or other countries.
A 10 b usd hit is nothing for a company like Boeing.

Posts by shmerik above are providing the actual presentation (with redactions) that Boeing gave FAA after the JT accident.

To me it reads more like "plausible deniability" rather than "shirking responsibility", but that distinction is up to the reader.

Still no "smoking gun" yet, time will tell if one emerges.
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shmerik
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:26 pm

Revelation wrote:
To me it reads more like "plausible deniability" rather than "shirking responsibility", but that distinction is up to the reader.


Is there any effective difference between the two in today's corporate world? :P

The big takeaway for me was that their testing seems to have revolved around simulating the equivalent of a single MCAS activation which is reoverable using hte elevator only, and then risk assessment was based on the assumption that pilots would counter unexpected trim events within 3 seconds (Peter Lemme claims this must have been from the ability to pull back on the yoke to use the column cut-out switches, which don't effect MCAS).

But then the logic of MCAS says that it will reactivate every 5 seconds whenever it is interrupted, so they expect it to be interrupted within 3 seconds, and they programmed it to continue every 5 seconds until AOA is back beneath the limit. With 50/50 hindsight the fact that it relies upon a single sensor would make it look obvious to test the situation where a failure has placed AOA permanently above the limit.

It's still very difficult for me to wrap my mind around the idea that they unintentionally let this slip through. I agree that there's no smoking gun, and no evidence we are privy to that may legally/technically implicate anyone in intentionally letting safety slide for profit, but it's all just very hard to believe. It just seems obvious that an automatic system with the power to direct the nose downward would need to be double checked, triple checked, etc. in order to be part of a plane flying countless people around the world every day.

I know it will never see the light of day but I would absolutely love to take a look at the MCAS code because from all available information it sounds like they put in a simple

if AOA > limit:
nosedown++;

Hope I'm not being obnoxious repeating the same points about the code over and over again but I've been drawn into this whole saga due to my experiences early on in my career working for an aerospace contractor. On the one hand I can see how shoddy development work could make it's way through because when we worked with the larger companies it was a disaster trying to hash out requirements and even once we knew what we needed to do, we didn't necessarily know what we were creating and especially not the larger context within which it would work in. They would have us implement a tiny obfuscated part of the overall project. After working on a few I was wondering how anything of quality ever gets built but expected the largest players like Boeing to have a grasp on what to do once they got the work from their contractors back. MCAS makes me feel that they may just plug and play and accept that everything works properly.

It's a sad state of affairs and doesn't give me much faith in the future of American engineering if we don't see systemic change in throughout many institutions.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:39 pm

par13del wrote:
Guillaume787 wrote:
Boeing would like to deliver its 737 MAX jet before the end of the year to some airlines, even as aviation regulators have yet to approve pilot training:

https://www-wsj-com.cdn.ampproject.org/ ... 1573421213

First question, why is training an issue, if the a/c crashed because it was flawed and nothing to do with pilot training as is the general theme here in this thread, is the article supposed to have a caveat on it saying Boeing is 100% responsible? The number of posters pushing to and fro on the pilot training issue should be weighing in on this is 3....2.....1.....

Second question, why would any airline take an a/c that they cannot fly commercially and pay parking and storage fees? The better moral and financial position for Boeing to take is a major reduction in their production rate if they are running out of parking space, I suspect the article is a result of a slow news day. The other thing that we know is that airlines who already operate the MAX and have additional a/c on order awaiting delivery have already stated that they will put into commercial use new build a/c direct from the production line while taking their time to restore a/c that have been stored for months. Based on that, what sense does it make to take more a/c and park them potentially for a month or 3 months, as December 2019 to March 2020 is the moving time line for RTS.

If Boeing had reduced the rate below 42 initially they would not be in the position they are now, I suspect we will never see the actual financial numbers related to lower production rate and the cost to ramp up after RTS. What we will see is the actual result on the operation of the higher production rate. Boeing will have close to a years worth of a/c sitting around requiring update and preparation for delivery to clients, including test flights by Boeing and the client, all this has to be done in parallel with ongoing production. Boeing is already hiring temp staff at Moses Lake, I think in general these are workers who will prepare the a/c for delivery, have we seen anything on them hiring additional test pilots, how easy is that if they have to be certified? How many FAA approved inspectors are available to review the paperwork before approval for delivery, is the FAA even factoring their resources required once RTS is given or will they simply say they are not hiring new staff and will work at the same pre-grounding rate? We have already seen speculation that the backlog will be cleared in 2020, I suspect it will go to 2021, and if there is continued economic slow down due to the tariff wars, it may drag on even longer.


Boeing will do something very simple with the cost, defer it. Than it seems, according to some posters, this deferred cost will just disappear, because it is just a booking exercise. That you can still show high profits is not just a bookkeeping exercise, that is the real deal.

Regarding the time frame, Boeing will perhaps be able to deliver 20 extra frames a month. Depending on RTS it can well take more than a year to clean out the stored frames.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:42 pm

par13del wrote:
Guillaume787 wrote:
Boeing would like to deliver its 737 MAX jet before the end of the year to some airlines, even as aviation regulators have yet to approve pilot training:

https://www-wsj-com.cdn.ampproject.org/ ... 1573421213

First question, why is training an issue, if the a/c crashed because it was flawed and nothing to do with pilot training as is the general theme here in this thread, is the article supposed to have a caveat on it saying Boeing is 100% responsible? The number of posters pushing to and fro on the pilot training issue should be weighing in on this is 3....2.....1.....

The arguments regarding pilot training are around the general acceptable level of training and experience for piloting whereas the approval of the pilot training as mentioned in the article is clearly around the specific training program required for the operation of the MCAS 2.0 or specific operating characteristics of the MAX.

(Pilots of given standard + aircraft specific training*MAX) = Crash Rate
(Pilots of given standard + aircraft specific training*NG) = Crash Rate

Seeing as we know the pilots are of the same standard (they are the same pilot pool) then all we can surmise is that the combination of the specific training and the aircraft type are the drivers for the increased crash rate. Then the admission is surely that without additional training the MAX is more dangerous to fly on or that the MAX requires more/additional training to maintain a safety record as good as the NG.

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morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:46 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
par13del wrote:
Guillaume787 wrote:
Boeing would like to deliver its 737 MAX jet before the end of the year to some airlines, even as aviation regulators have yet to approve pilot training:

https://www-wsj-com.cdn.ampproject.org/ ... 1573421213

First question, why is training an issue, if the a/c crashed because it was flawed and nothing to do with pilot training as is the general theme here in this thread, is the article supposed to have a caveat on it saying Boeing is 100% responsible? The number of posters pushing to and fro on the pilot training issue should be weighing in on this is 3....2.....1.....

Second question, why would any airline take an a/c that they cannot fly commercially and pay parking and storage fees? The better moral and financial position for Boeing to take is a major reduction in their production rate if they are running out of parking space, I suspect the article is a result of a slow news day. The other thing that we know is that airlines who already operate the MAX and have additional a/c on order awaiting delivery have already stated that they will put into commercial use new build a/c direct from the production line while taking their time to restore a/c that have been stored for months. Based on that, what sense does it make to take more a/c and park them potentially for a month or 3 months, as December 2019 to March 2020 is the moving time line for RTS.

If Boeing had reduced the rate below 42 initially they would not be in the position they are now, I suspect we will never see the actual financial numbers related to lower production rate and the cost to ramp up after RTS. What we will see is the actual result on the operation of the higher production rate. Boeing will have close to a years worth of a/c sitting around requiring update and preparation for delivery to clients, including test flights by Boeing and the client, all this has to be done in parallel with ongoing production. Boeing is already hiring temp staff at Moses Lake, I think in general these are workers who will prepare the a/c for delivery, have we seen anything on them hiring additional test pilots, how easy is that if they have to be certified? How many FAA approved inspectors are available to review the paperwork before approval for delivery, is the FAA even factoring their resources required once RTS is given or will they simply say they are not hiring new staff and will work at the same pre-grounding rate? We have already seen speculation that the backlog will be cleared in 2020, I suspect it will go to 2021, and if there is continued economic slow down due to the tariff wars, it may drag on even longer.


Boeing will do something very simple with the cost, defer it. Than it seems, according to some posters, this deferred cost will just disappear, because it is just a booking exercise. That you can still show high profits is not just a bookkeeping exercise, that is the real deal.

Regarding the time frame, Boeing will perhaps be able to deliver 20 extra frames a month. Depending on RTS it can well take more than a year to clean out the stored frames.


They will either add the expense to the cost of the program reducing the per frame profit and spread it out over many years or recognize it as a current expense. I suspect they may recognize it right away (or at least a part of it) as they will be delivering so many frames that and recording so much profit it will be easy to bury some in the Quarterly numbers and then will not have to record lower profit numbers in the future when 787 and 777 Deliveries won't be as high as in the past.

Boeing said it would take more than a year a few weeks ago to return and deliver all built Max's to service - so what is new?
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:46 pm

It will be not so much Boeing being the bottleneck on delivery but the airlines that have limited manpower to integrate new aircraft, get staff certified and trained and take MAXes in a short time. Taking new aircraft means a lot of administrative work. These experts are not free to take more work at any time. And pilots must know what to be trained for and then receive the new training.
Ryanair as an example had announced how fast it can take new MAXes one cleared to fly. Typically they take like one new aircraft a week. Even if they double their team it will take a while.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:51 pm

:arrow: Apparently U.S. and European regulators have asked Boeing to revise documentation on its proposed 737 Max software fix that was submitted last week.

Boeings side of the story:
Boeing spokesman Gordon Johndroe said Wednesday the company “provided technical documentation to the regulators as part of the software validation process. The documentation was complete, and it was provided in a format consistent with past submissions. Regulators have requested that the information be conveyed in a different form, and the documentation is being revised accordingly.”


An other source: tells:
One person briefed on the matter characterized the issue differently and said Boeing’s paperwork had gaps, was substandard and meant regulators could not complete the audit, a crucial step before the plane can be certified to return to service.


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/07/regulators-want-revised-boeing-737-max-software-documentation.html

II wonder how it is possible to provide documentation that gets rejected by FAA and ESA instantly, after all that happened and became clear? Maybe they are not used anymore to people seriously reviewing / questioning the content? Amazing situation IMO.
Last edited by keesje on Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:52 pm

morrisond wrote:
Boeing said it would take more than a year a few weeks ago to return and deliver all built Max's to service - so what is new?

What is new is (my take) the slow news day article saying Boeing wants to commence delivering a/c to clients even though they cannot be flown commercially., the article sparked my response.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:54 pm

keesje wrote:
:arrow: Apparently U.S. and European regulators have asked Boeing to revise documentation on its proposed 737 Max software fix that was submitted last week.

Boeings side of the story:
Boeing spokesman Gordon Johndroe said Wednesday the company “provided technical documentation to the regulators as part of the software validation process. The documentation was complete, and it was provided in a format consistent with past submissions. Regulators have requested that the information be conveyed in a different form, and the documentation is being revised accordingly.”


An other source: tells:
One person briefed on the matter characterized the issue differently and said Boeing’s paperwork had gaps, was substandard and meant regulators could not complete the audit, a crucial step before the plane can be certified to return to service.


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/07/regulators-want-revised-boeing-737-max-software-documentation.html

II wonder how it is possible to provide documentation that gets rejected by FAA and ESA instantly. Maybe they are not used to people reviewing / questioning the content. lately? Amazing situation IMO.


This news was posted and discussed extensively last week in this thread.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:55 pm

keesje wrote:
II wonder how it is possible to provide documentation that gets rejected by FAA and ESA instantly. Maybe they are not used to people reviewing / questioning the content. lately? Amazing situation IMO.

Flip side would be why did the FAA remove the staff that worked at Boeing who reported to them, they must have been removed since the documents were not prepared in the necessary FAA approved format right? After all, folks working for the FAA who are embedded with Boeing would know the correct format.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:02 pm

planecane wrote:
keesje wrote:
:arrow: Apparently U.S. and European regulators have asked Boeing to revise documentation on its proposed 737 Max software fix that was submitted last week.

Boeings side of the story:
Boeing spokesman Gordon Johndroe said Wednesday the company “provided technical documentation to the regulators as part of the software validation process. The documentation was complete, and it was provided in a format consistent with past submissions. Regulators have requested that the information be conveyed in a different form, and the documentation is being revised accordingly.”


An other source: tells:
One person briefed on the matter characterized the issue differently and said Boeing’s paperwork had gaps, was substandard and meant regulators could not complete the audit, a crucial step before the plane can be certified to return to service.


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/07/regulators-want-revised-boeing-737-max-software-documentation.html

II wonder how it is possible to provide documentation that gets rejected by FAA and ESA instantly. Maybe they are not used to people reviewing / questioning the content. lately? Amazing situation IMO.


This news was posted and discussed extensively last week in this thread.


I found, #2480, 4 days ago. The mega threads work! If the goal is to drown/ obviouscate news that shouldn't be "over exposed"..


par13del wrote:
keesje wrote:
II wonder how it is possible to provide documentation that gets rejected by FAA and ESA instantly. Maybe they are not used to people reviewing / questioning the content. lately? Amazing situation IMO.

Flip side would be why did the FAA remove the staff that worked at Boeing who reported to them, they must have been removed since the documents were not prepared in the necessary FAA approved format right? After all, folks working for the FAA who are embedded with Boeing would know the correct format.


I can not believe not Muilenburg & Hamilton personally checking this before it went out. Or there is more to it..
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:05 pm

keesje wrote:
I can not believe not Muilenburg & Hamilton personally checking this before it went out. Or there is more to it..

In any company, the reports have to be checked by the professionals BEFORE it gets to the head of the snake, in this case, the FAA certified inspectors who are embedded at Boeing.
So the conspiracy theorist in me says, was this another FAA ambush like the bit flip issue in June?
 
Sooner787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:07 pm

par13del wrote:
keesje wrote:
II wonder how it is possible to provide documentation that gets rejected by FAA and ESA instantly. Maybe they are not used to people reviewing / questioning the content. lately? Amazing situation IMO.

Flip side would be why did the FAA remove the staff that worked at Boeing who reported to them, they must have been removed since the documents were not prepared in the necessary FAA approved format right? After all, folks working for the FAA who are embedded with Boeing would know the correct format.


I think the political kabuki theater is ramping up...... I don't think there's any way the regulators were going
to accept all the documentation without some push back.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:26 pm

shmerik wrote:
It's still very difficult for me to wrap my mind around the idea that they unintentionally let this slip through. I agree that there's no smoking gun, and no evidence we are privy to that may legally/technically implicate anyone in intentionally letting safety slide for profit, but it's all just very hard to believe. It just seems obvious that an automatic system with the power to direct the nose downward would need to be double checked, triple checked, etc. in order to be part of a plane flying countless people around the world every day.

Yes, to me the most difficult to understand part is that they talked themselves into introducing a feature with so much power without doing realistic end-to-end system level testing. I read through the PDF you posted and my eyes stopped at the same part you chose to emphasize, where it seems it took not much more than a meeting among pilots with some follow up email to establish that multiple MCAS activation was not different than single MCAS activation which they were confident airline pilots could deal with, thus bypassing any realistic end-to-end system level testing which would have shown the "too much workload" issue. Note the slide then goes on to emphasize "no process violation or non-compliance". Not sure how that stands up given they had at least some of the data from the ET crash in front of them, unless they are saying their compliance with process produced a terrible outcome.

Seems the meeting described by the email of June 22, 2016 is where one would start looking for the smoking gun by interviewing all participants asking about any undo pressure being asserted by profit-centric management. I presume FBI/DoJ has done just that, and I presume since we didn't see that get dredged up while Congress was preparing for DM on the hot seat for two days that odds of such a smoking gun existing at the present time is pretty low.

As for intent, I can see so many different vectors, and it is so easy to pick one without being in the room. Surely every engineer knows managers want to minimize cost and reward decisions that save the company money, but the text (which again is Boeing speaking to FAA so undoubtedly carefully scripted) reads as if this was a decision among test and engineering pilots, no heavy hand of management to be seen. Also we can suggest the vectors of pure laziness and/or carelessness? But again Boeing's CYA is in place, the pilots decided it wasn't a problem to defeat MCAS even with multiple activations. We can all pick our own favorite explanations but till there is a smoking gun, plausible deniability is intact.
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:45 pm

keesje wrote:
I found, #2480, 4 days ago. The mega threads work! If the goal is to drown/ obviouscate news that shouldn't be "over exposed"..

Go back and read #2623, it's more interesting than quibbling about documents.

It gives a window into Boeing's thought process around single and multiple MCAS activations and pilot reaction to such, in the aftermath of the JT crash.

It isn't a true Revelation in that it just provides Boeing's well known position shared to the media at the time, but it is interesting to see the exact presentation they gave to FAA (minus redactions).

Sooner787 wrote:
I think the political kabuki theater is ramping up...... I don't think there's any way the regulators were going to accept all the documentation without some push back.

:checkmark:
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The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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shmerik
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:18 pm

Revelation wrote:
shmerik wrote:
It's still very difficult for me to wrap my mind around the idea that they unintentionally let this slip through. I agree that there's no smoking gun, and no evidence we are privy to that may legally/technically implicate anyone in intentionally letting safety slide for profit, but it's all just very hard to believe. It just seems obvious that an automatic system with the power to direct the nose downward would need to be double checked, triple checked, etc. in order to be part of a plane flying countless people around the world every day.

Yes, to me the most difficult to understand part is that they talked themselves into introducing a feature with so much power without doing realistic end-to-end system level testing. I read through the PDF you posted and my eyes stopped at the same part you chose to emphasize, where it seems it took not much more than a meeting among pilots with some follow up email to establish that multiple MCAS activation was not different than single MCAS activation which they were confident airline pilots could deal with, thus bypassing any realistic end-to-end system level testing which would have shown the "too much workload" issue. Note the slide then goes on to emphasize "no process violation or non-compliance". Not sure how that stands up given they had at least some of the data from the ET crash in front of them, unless they are saying their compliance with process produced a terrible outcome.

Seems the meeting described by the email of June 22, 2016 is where one would start looking for the smoking gun by interviewing all participants asking about any undo pressure being asserted by profit-centric management. I presume FBI/DoJ has done just that, and I presume since we didn't see that get dredged up while Congress was preparing for DM on the hot seat for two days that odds of such a smoking gun existing at the present time is pretty low.

As for intent, I can see so many different vectors, and it is so easy to pick one without being in the room. Surely every engineer knows managers want to minimize cost and reward decisions that save the company money, but the text (which again is Boeing speaking to FAA so undoubtedly carefully scripted) reads as if this was a decision among test and engineering pilots, no heavy hand of management to be seen. Also we can suggest the vectors of pure laziness and/or carelessness? But again Boeing's CYA is in place, the pilots decided it wasn't a problem to defeat MCAS even with multiple activations. We can all pick our own favorite explanations but till there is a smoking gun, plausible deniability is intact.


Agreed.

Yeah I interpreted those non-compliance bullet points as being in the tone of "well we all know how bad the outcome turned out but we didn't break any rules"

Unfortunately it's easy enough to imagine a discussion between exhausted worked to the bones engineers and test signing off on claiming that the impact is the same without much depth of consideration, ready to get the final pieces out of the door. Especially with how it sounded like the overall work environment was from the Forkner messages.

What's that about never attributing to malice that which may be explained by stupidity...?
 
LondonAero
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:28 pm

Just released on the BA website. How do you think this relates to the documentation gap that emerged last week and/or the EASA issues?

CHICAGO, Nov. 11, 2019 -- Boeing’s priority remains the safe return to service of the MAX and supporting our airline customers through this challenging time. We are working closely with the FAA and other regulatory authorities as we work towards certification and safe return to commercial service, and we are taking the time to answer all of their questions. With the rigorous scrutiny being applied, we are confident the MAX will be one of the safest airplanes ever to fly.

While the FAA and other regulatory authorities will determine the timing of certification and return to commercial service, Boeing continues to target FAA certification of the MAX flight control software updates during this quarter. Based on this schedule, it is possible that the resumption of MAX deliveries to airline customers could begin in December, after certification, when the FAA issues an Airworthiness Directive rescinding the grounding order. In parallel, we are working towards final validation of the updated training requirements, which must occur before the MAX returns to commercial service, and which we now expect to begin in January.

There are five key milestones Boeing must complete with the FAA before return to service:

FAA eCab Simulator Certification Session: A multi-day eCab simulator evaluation with the FAA to ensure the overall software system performs its intended function, both normally and in the presence of system failures. COMPLETED

FAA Line Pilots Crew Workload Evaluation: A separate, multi-day simulator session with airline pilots to assess human factors and crew workload under various test conditions.

FAA Certification Flight Test: FAA pilots will conduct a certification flight(s) of the final updated software.

Boeing Final Submittal to the FAA: After completion of the FAA certification flight, Boeing will submit the final certification deliverables and artifacts to the FAA to support software certification.

Joint Operational Evaluation Board (JOEB) Simulator Training Evaluation: The Joint Operational Evaluation Board (JOEB), a multi-regulatory body, conducts a multi-day simulator session with global regulatory pilots to validate training requirements. Following the simulator session, the Flight Standardization Board will release a report for a public comment period, followed by final approval of the training.

Boeing and the FAA successfully concluded the first of these milestones this past week, and are now working towards the FAA line pilots evaluation and the FAA certification flight test.

At each step of this process Boeing has worked closely with the FAA and other regulators. We’re providing detailed documentation, had them fly in the simulators, and helped them understand our logic and the design for the new procedures, software and proposed training material to ensure that they are completely satisfied as to the airplane’s safety. The FAA and other regulatory authorities will ultimately determine return to service in each relevant jurisdiction. This may include a phased approach and timing may vary by jurisdiction.

Contact
Members of the news media should direct queries to [email protected] or 312-544-2002.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:50 pm

LondonAero wrote:
Just released on the BA website. How do you think this relates to the documentation gap that emerged last week and/or the EASA issues?

CHICAGO, Nov. 11, 2019 -- Boeing’s priority remains the safe return to service of the MAX and supporting our airline customers through this challenging time. We are working closely with the FAA and other regulatory authorities as we work towards certification and safe return to commercial service, and we are taking the time to answer all of their questions. With the rigorous scrutiny being applied, we are confident the MAX will be one of the safest airplanes ever to fly.

While the FAA and other regulatory authorities will determine the timing of certification and return to commercial service, Boeing continues to target FAA certification of the MAX flight control software updates during this quarter. Based on this schedule, it is possible that the resumption of MAX deliveries to airline customers could begin in December, after certification, when the FAA issues an Airworthiness Directive rescinding the grounding order. In parallel, we are working towards final validation of the updated training requirements, which must occur before the MAX returns to commercial service, and which we now expect to begin in January.

There are five key milestones Boeing must complete with the FAA before return to service:

FAA eCab Simulator Certification Session: A multi-day eCab simulator evaluation with the FAA to ensure the overall software system performs its intended function, both normally and in the presence of system failures. COMPLETED

FAA Line Pilots Crew Workload Evaluation: A separate, multi-day simulator session with airline pilots to assess human factors and crew workload under various test conditions.

FAA Certification Flight Test: FAA pilots will conduct a certification flight(s) of the final updated software.

Boeing Final Submittal to the FAA: After completion of the FAA certification flight, Boeing will submit the final certification deliverables and artifacts to the FAA to support software certification.

Joint Operational Evaluation Board (JOEB) Simulator Training Evaluation: The Joint Operational Evaluation Board (JOEB), a multi-regulatory body, conducts a multi-day simulator session with global regulatory pilots to validate training requirements. Following the simulator session, the Flight Standardization Board will release a report for a public comment period, followed by final approval of the training.

Boeing and the FAA successfully concluded the first of these milestones this past week, and are now working towards the FAA line pilots evaluation and the FAA certification flight test.

At each step of this process Boeing has worked closely with the FAA and other regulators. We’re providing detailed documentation, had them fly in the simulators, and helped them understand our logic and the design for the new procedures, software and proposed training material to ensure that they are completely satisfied as to the airplane’s safety. The FAA and other regulatory authorities will ultimately determine return to service in each relevant jurisdiction. This may include a phased approach and timing may vary by jurisdiction.

Contact
Members of the news media should direct queries to [email protected] or 312-544-2002.


That seems like a lot to do before year end. I doubt they will get all the FAA approvals before then.

Boeing is probably putting this out so they can pin any further delays on the FAA "We did our job, just waiting for the FAA to do their's"
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:55 pm

I am somewhat shocked that the FAA test flights have not been completed, we have seen a number of test flights with the MAX-7, is it that the FAA does not have the resources to conduct multiple examinations at the same time?
The other interesting one...Boeing final submission to the FAA, according to the head of the FAA this was already done, is this article really current or an update of something that was put out a couple weeks ago? If the testing reveals additional problems, then yes, corrections have to be made and another submission, but so far, we have not heard of any test failure just confusion of whether the documentation has gaps versus format errors.
 
LondonAero
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:58 pm

This was just put out 30 minutes ago. https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-relea ... tem=130556
 
shmerik
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:06 pm

par13del wrote:
I am somewhat shocked that the FAA test flights have not been completed, we have seen a number of test flights with the MAX-7, is it that the FAA does not have the resources to conduct multiple examinations at the same time?
The other interesting one...Boeing final submission to the FAA, according to the head of the FAA this was already done, is this article really current or an update of something that was put out a couple weeks ago? If the testing reveals additional problems, then yes, corrections have to be made and another submission, but so far, we have not heard of any test failure just confusion of whether the documentation has gaps versus format errors.


I'm surprised that they test the simulator before testing the actual plane, I would have thought that you'd verify the sim after experiencing the real deal to make sure that it's accurate

Regardless each of these steps are bound to have some back and forth between Boeing and the FAA. I think it's wise that airlines are pushing back their schedules yet again
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:09 pm

LondonAero wrote:
This was just put out 30 minutes ago. https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-relea ... tem=130556

Can we rely on media releases?

A release the same day is headed 'Boeing to Focus on Safety, Innovation and Partnerships at 2019 Dubai Airshow'. Yet we recently learned Boeing removed wing / fuel lightning protection from the 787 in anticipation of, but without FAA approval, and delivered said deficient aircraft to customers.

What other revelations remain to be confessed? About time customers, key industry players (like AIA), and airworthiness authorities became more proactive on behalf of flight crews and passengers.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:29 pm

par13del wrote:
I am somewhat shocked that the FAA test flights have not been completed, we have seen a number of test flights with the MAX-7, is it that the FAA does not have the resources to conduct multiple examinations at the same time?
The other interesting one...Boeing final submission to the FAA, according to the head of the FAA this was already done, is this article really current or an update of something that was put out a couple weeks ago? If the testing reveals additional problems, then yes, corrections have to be made and another submission, but so far, we have not heard of any test failure just confusion of whether the documentation has gaps versus format errors.

FAA chief Steve Dickson said final software and its documentation was handed over, Boeing's announcement says "After completion of the FAA certification flight, Boeing will submit the final certification deliverables and artifacts to the FAA to support software certification" so apparently it is a staged process with different deliverables such as software, its documentation, certification flight test results, etc.
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Jamie514
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:39 pm

Revelation wrote:
Jamie514 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
FMC is not relevant to this thread since no FMC issue has been reported, MCAS runs on FCC not FMC.

Looking forward to and frankly expecting this quick of a shut down from you the next time the grossly off topic "worldwide pilot training" resurfaces. and ten thousand previous posts show that it will.

You do know if you want the topic to drop you should just let the topic drop, right?

Or is this a passive-aggressive way to trigger more discussion you claim you don't want?


These deflective and projective accusations are beyond baseless. I'm not trying to trigger that unwanted topic. I wouldn't need to anyway; its resurfaced thousands of times now with absolutely no help from me.

What I was trying to say is how hypocritical it is to let posters go on and on with that unfounded pilots/training narrative on these threads, over thousands and thousands of posts over many months...but one mention of the real FMC problem has you logging in say its off topic.

Like that time a few weeks ago when you rushed to dismiss and discredit the poster with news of the union rep saying one of the US MAX operators had pushed back return to service. Which of course turned out to be true.

Don't think your sad obvious double standards aren't obvious.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:40 pm

morrisond wrote:
That seems like a lot to do before year end. I doubt they will get all the FAA approvals before then.

Boeing is probably putting this out so they can pin any further delays on the FAA "We did our job, just waiting for the FAA to do their's"

WSJ ( https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-see ... 1573421213 ) said:

Boeing Co. (BA 4.27%) hopes to deliver 737 MAX aircraft to airlines before the end of the year even if regulators haven’t approved related pilot training, people familiar with the matter said.

As the plane maker prepares for the Federal Aviation Administration to lift a MAX flight ban as soon as December, Boeing is discussing with regulators whether it can deliver the aircraft before airline pilots have undergone required training needed to fly the jet, these people said. The emerging plan comes amid increasing signs there will be lag between an FAA’s lifting of a flight ban and its approval of new training for pilots.

Seems everyone is now anticipating the training issue may take longer to resolve than anticipated.

It's clear why Boeing would want to deliver planes ASAP, but why would the airlines want the planes before their pilots can fly them?

Airlines have been anxious for Boeing to resume deliveries of the MAX and want to avoid bottlenecks and long waits once the plane is cleared for service.

So I presume there still is a lot of paperwork that can be taken care of, along with airline specific customization, and at least some airlines want the planes ASAP as well.

They also seem to be suggesting that taking the planes early will let some airlines beat the rush that will happen once the planes are flyable.
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justloveplanes
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:54 pm

par13del wrote:
I am somewhat shocked that the FAA test flights have not been completed, we have seen a number of test flights with the MAX-7, is it that the FAA does not have the resources to conduct multiple examinations at the same time?
The other interesting one...Boeing final submission to the FAA, according to the head of the FAA this was already done, is this article really current or an update of something that was put out a couple weeks ago? If the testing reveals additional problems, then yes, corrections have to be made and another submission, but so far, we have not heard of any test failure just confusion of whether the documentation has gaps versus format errors.


Probably lots of FAA oversight of test flights and simulator action already. This is in essence the formal acceptance test and paperwork with no surprises expected. Pretty sure Boeing and the FAA know exactly what to expect at this point.

I think it's useful, and sad, to review what an easy fix this was. Mullenbergs testimony on Capitol Hill was that the fix consisted of only 3 items - one pitch down, limited angle and dual sensors. Throw out the dual sensors and the airplane is safe with the equivalent of lane correction software on a car that gives an audio alert one one steering bump.

Since the minimal training requirement (iPad) is now gone along with the (politely) flawed design, corrective measures don't really amount to much. So rapid certification to service shouldn't be a surprise. Just plain not that much (sadly) to this.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:56 pm

Jamie514 wrote:
What I was trying to say is how hypocritical it is to let posters go on and on with that unfounded pilots/training narrative on these threads, over thousands and thousands of posts over many months...but one mention of the real FMC problem has you logging in say its off topic.

Like that time a few weeks ago when you rushed to dismiss and discredit the poster with news of the union rep saying one of the US MAX operators had pushed back return to service. Which of course turned out to be true.

Don't think your sad obvious double standards aren't obvious.

There is no "real FMC problem", just some conjecture that it uses a older microprocessor, one still being made.

AFAIK FMC has nothing to do with the current grounding, feel free to update us if you know otherwise.

Pilots/training issue always had foundation, even more since the KNKT report was released, and is totally on topic.

If it wasn't an issue, why is ungrounding being delayed to address pilot/training issues?

I did not rush to dismiss and discredit a poster, all I did was point out that the poster wrote it was a company statement whereas it was a union statement.

If you don't like what I write for whatever reason, just add me to your Foes list and my posts will disappear.

Other than that, let's discuss the topics and not each other.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:58 pm

Revelation wrote:
They also seem to be suggesting that taking the planes early will let some airlines beat the rush that will happen once the planes are flyable.

I am struggling with this, if the delay goes beyond Dec-2019, the airlines will now be responsible for storage fee's and keeping the a/c in a flyable condition, this would be in addition to making the final payment to Boeing, financially, I do not see how this loss can be explained to their boards.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:04 pm

justloveplanes wrote:
par13del wrote:
I am somewhat shocked that the FAA test flights have not been completed, we have seen a number of test flights with the MAX-7, is it that the FAA does not have the resources to conduct multiple examinations at the same time?
The other interesting one...Boeing final submission to the FAA, according to the head of the FAA this was already done, is this article really current or an update of something that was put out a couple weeks ago? If the testing reveals additional problems, then yes, corrections have to be made and another submission, but so far, we have not heard of any test failure just confusion of whether the documentation has gaps versus format errors.


Probably lots of FAA oversight of test flights and simulator action already. This is in essence the formal acceptance test and paperwork with no surprises expected. Pretty sure Boeing and the FAA know exactly what to expect at this point.

I think it's useful, and sad, to review what an easy fix this was. Mullenbergs testimony on Capitol Hill was that the fix consisted of only 3 items - one pitch down, limited angle and dual sensors. Throw out the dual sensors and the airplane is safe with the equivalent of lane correction software on a car that gives an audio alert one one steering bump.

Since the minimal training requirement (iPad) is now gone along with the (politely) flawed design, corrective measures don't really amount to much. So rapid certification to service shouldn't be a surprise. Just plain not that much (sadly) to this.


We do not really have enough information to say this. Pilot training could be about the MCAS but it could also be about stall handling without MCAS
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:13 pm

seahawk wrote:
We do not really have enough information to say this. Pilot training could be about the MCAS but it could also be about stall handling without MCAS

So after all the months of pilot training having nothing to do with the crash we are going to make pilot training a part of the un-grounding with a caveat that it only relates to MCAS?
In relation to the fix that was provided in June-2019, nothing was mentioned that there would be an MCAS On / Off switch which would allow the a/c to be flown without MCAS protection, indeed, the issue was whether the a/c could be certified without MCAS.
As you know, this point is / was hotly debated since it was put out there that EASA wanted a test flight without MCAS.
 
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Re: Boein byg 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:22 pm

seahawk wrote:
justloveplanes wrote:
par13del wrote:
I am somewhat shocked that the FAA test flights have not been completed, we have seen a number of test flights with the MAX-7, is it that the FAA does not have the resources to conduct multiple examinations at the same time?
The other interesting one...Boeing final submission to the FAA, according to the head of the FAA this was already done, is this article really current or an update of something that was put out a couple weeks ago? If the testing reveals additional problems, then yes, corrections have to be made and another submission, but so far, we have not heard of any test failure just confusion of whether the documentation has gaps versus format errors.


Probably lots of FAA oversight of test flights and simulator action already. This is in essence the formal acceptance test and paperwork with no surprises expected. Pretty sure Boeing and the FAA know exactly what to expect at this point.

I think it's useful, and sad, to review what an easy fix this was. Mullenbergs testimony on Capitol Hill was that the fix consisted of only 3 items - one pitch down, limited angle and dual sensors. Throw out the dual sensors and the airplane is safe with the equivalent of lane correction software on a car that gives an audio alert one one steering bump.

Since the minimal training requirement (iPad) is now gone along with the (politely) flawed design, corrective measures don't really amount to much. So rapid certification to service shouldn't be a surprise. Just plain not that much (sadly) to this.


We do not really have enough information to say this. Pilot training could be about the MCAS but it could also be about stall handling without MCAS


I see your point. However, the minimal nature of the fixes outlined by Mullenberg along with a remaining issue being documentation centric, all point to MCAS not having an outsized role in stall prevention in the first place. This theory is in line with the expected microscopic examination of the fixes by world wide authorities.

If MCAS Ii stall prevention requires fancy moves by a global typical pilot, we would see aero changes to the frame. No aero changes. This is all assuming the FAA at this point won't buy off on a solution that won't pass exacting global muster, a safe assumption at this point I think
Last edited by justloveplanes on Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
mzlin
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:22 pm

Revelation wrote:
shmerik wrote:
It's still very difficult for me to wrap my mind around the idea that they unintentionally let this slip through. I agree that there's no smoking gun, and no evidence we are privy to that may legally/technically implicate anyone in intentionally letting safety slide for profit, but it's all just very hard to believe. It just seems obvious that an automatic system with the power to direct the nose downward would need to be double checked, triple checked, etc. in order to be part of a plane flying countless people around the world every day.

Yes, to me the most difficult to understand part is that they talked themselves into introducing a feature with so much power without doing realistic end-to-end system level testing. I read through the PDF you posted and my eyes stopped at the same part you chose to emphasize, where it seems it took not much more than a meeting among pilots with some follow up email to establish that multiple MCAS activation was not different than single MCAS activation which they were confident airline pilots could deal with, thus bypassing any realistic end-to-end system level testing which would have shown the "too much workload" issue. Note the slide then goes on to emphasize "no process violation or non-compliance". Not sure how that stands up given they had at least some of the data from the ET crash in front of them, unless they are saying their compliance with process produced a terrible outcome.

Seems the meeting described by the email of June 22, 2016 is where one would start looking for the smoking gun by interviewing all participants asking about any undo pressure being asserted by profit-centric management. I presume FBI/DoJ has done just that, and I presume since we didn't see that get dredged up while Congress was preparing for DM on the hot seat for two days that odds of such a smoking gun existing at the present time is pretty low.

(...truncated for focus)


Regarded your sentence above, "Not sure how that stands up given they had at least some of the data from the ET crash in front of them" which I bolded to make it easy to find: The slidedeck is dated 2019 March 1; ET302 was 2019 March 10. FAA was probably in the middle of reading the submission when ET302 happened. Could have contributed to the delay in the FAA grounding, i.e. maybe administrators were waiting for finish evaluating this document before making a grounding decision.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:36 pm

mzlin wrote:
Regarded your sentence above, "Not sure how that stands up given they had at least some of the data from the ET crash in front of them" which I bolded to make it easy to find: The slidedeck is dated 2019 March 1; ET302 was 2019 March 10. FAA was probably in the middle of reading the submission when ET302 happened. Could have contributed to the delay in the FAA grounding, i.e. maybe administrators were waiting for finish evaluating this document before making a grounding decision.

You are correct. Basically I wrote ET where I should have written JT. Thanks for catching it.
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2175301
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:43 pm

Ref: https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-relea ... tem=130556

There are five key milestones Boeing must complete with the FAA before return to service:

1. FAA eCab Simulator Certification Session: A multi-day eCab simulator evaluation with the FAA to ensure the overall software system performs its intended function, both normally and in the presence of system failures. COMPLETED

2. FAA Line Pilots Crew Workload Evaluation: A separate, multi-day simulator session with airline pilots to assess human factors and crew workload under various test conditions.

3. FAA Certification Flight Test: FAA pilots will conduct a certification flight(s) of the final updated software.

4. Boeing Final Submittal to the FAA: After completion of the FAA certification flight, Boeing will submit the final certification deliverables and artifacts to the FAA to support software certification.

5. Joint Operational Evaluation Board (JOEB) Simulator Training Evaluation: The Joint Operational Evaluation Board (JOEB), a multi-regulatory body, conducts a multi-day simulator session with global regulatory pilots to validate training requirements. Following the simulator session, the Flight Standardization Board will release a report for a public comment period, followed by final approval of the training.


Boeing and the FAA successfully concluded the first of these milestones this past week,.....

----

Given the press releases and discussion at the end of last week... it seems we are well into the 4th stage of Boeing will submit the final certification deliverables and artifacts to the FAA to support software certification.

It sounds like we are well on our way through the process. My guess is that the public comment period on the Training will only be 10 or 15 days.

Have a great day,
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:56 pm

par13del wrote:
seahawk wrote:
We do not really have enough information to say this. Pilot training could be about the MCAS but it could also be about stall handling without MCAS

So after all the months of pilot training having nothing to do with the crash we are going to make pilot training a part of the un-grounding with a caveat that it only relates to MCAS?
it Is the integration/interaction of many parts of aviation system that creates the safe system. Pilot training can refer to many parts of this system and in this instance the only real defining factors and variables are the aircraft and the associated interfaces (by their nature different because of the aircraft). Therefore the pilot training does not refer to the general ability of the pilots but the pilot machine interface and the training required for the specifics of that.

Fred



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keesje
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:33 pm

CHICAGO, Nov. 11, 2019 -- Boeing’s priority remains the safe return to service of the MAX and supporting our airline customers through this challenging time. We are working closely with the FAA and other regulatory authorities as we work towards certification and safe return to commercial service, and we are taking the time to answer all of their questions. With the rigorous scrutiny being applied, we are confident the MAX will be one of the safest airplanes ever to fly.
......
Contact
Members of the news media should direct queries to [email protected] or 312-544-2002.


I think this is the communication of one of the parties under investigation for more than the two crashes.

I would applaud Boeing for ambitiously embracing the JATR recommendations on their aircraft certification process. Pro-actively implementing the changes to really enhance public flight safety moving forward and demonstrating new leadership by setting new safety benchmarks rather than smartly avoiding the latest requirements. Or push congress to have the FAA do so.
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:43 pm

keesje wrote:
I think this is the communication of one of the parties under investigation for more than the two crashes.

I would applaud Boeing for ambitiously embracing the JATR recommendations on their aircraft certification process. Pro-actively implementing the changes to really enhance public flight safety moving forward and demonstrating new leadership by setting new safety benchmarks rather than smartly avoiding the latest requirements. Or push congress to have the FAA do so.

Well, Boeing is hurting now because of "liberties" taken in the certification process, let's go with a real fix and push congress to have the FAA make the necessary changes.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:48 pm

Reuters quotes a Boeing spokesman with a pretty definitive timeline for "ungrounding":

We expect the Max to be certified, airworthiness directive issued, ungrounded in mid-December. We expect pilot training requirements to be approved in January,” said Boeing spokesman Gordon Johndroe.

He added that “our airline customers will need more time to return their fleets to service and to train all 737 pilots, therefore they have announced schedule updates into March.”

The FAA reiterated that the agency has “set no timeframe for when the work will be completed.”

Ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN1XL24C

It seems the only thing blocking RTS will be gaining approval of the pilot training requirements.

It seems a lot of the "what about X?" questions are not going to be answered at the time of "ungrounding".
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:57 pm

2175301 wrote:
Ref: https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-relea ... tem=130556

There are five key milestones Boeing must complete with the FAA before return to service:


2. FAA Line Pilots Crew Workload Evaluation: A separate, multi-day simulator session with airline pilots to assess human factors and crew workload under various test conditions.


Is this specific to the fixes or just some more generic session?
 
Sooner787
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:58 pm

Revelation wrote:
Reuters quotes a Boeing spokesman with a pretty definitive timeline for "ungrounding":

We expect the Max to be certified, airworthiness directive issued, ungrounded in mid-December. We expect pilot training requirements to be approved in January,” said Boeing spokesman Gordon Johndroe.

He added that “our airline customers will need more time to return their fleets to service and to train all 737 pilots, therefore they have announced schedule updates into March.”

The FAA reiterated that the agency has “set no timeframe for when the work will be completed.”

Ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN1XL24C

It seems the only thing blocking RTS will be gaining approval of the pilot training requirements.

It seems a lot of the "what about X?" questions are not going to be answered at the time of "ungrounding".


Scott Hamilton surmised that some of the grounded Max's will need C checks before they can return to service.
I'm guessing any frames stored over a year might fit that category?
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:15 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Scott Hamilton surmised that some of the grounded Max's will need C checks before they can return to service.
I'm guessing any frames stored over a year might fit that category?

I don't know the answer, but I can say I read in at least one article that Boeing plans to deal with the planes coming off the line first, which makes sense.

I can imagine some customers won't be happy with how long it takes some of the airplanes to be made available.
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keesje
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Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:02 pm

I hope Boeing closely coordinates re-certification with foreign authorities. If they would try go around it and/or try to influence decision making pulling strings like before, global re-introduction might get hampered.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9386
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:24 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Reuters quotes a Boeing spokesman with a pretty definitive timeline for "ungrounding":

We expect the Max to be certified, airworthiness directive issued, ungrounded in mid-December. We expect pilot training requirements to be approved in January,” said Boeing spokesman Gordon Johndroe.

He added that “our airline customers will need more time to return their fleets to service and to train all 737 pilots, therefore they have announced schedule updates into March.”

The FAA reiterated that the agency has “set no timeframe for when the work will be completed.”

Ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN1XL24C

It seems the only thing blocking RTS will be gaining approval of the pilot training requirements.

It seems a lot of the "what about X?" questions are not going to be answered at the time of "ungrounding".


Scott Hamilton surmised that some of the grounded Max's will need C checks before they can return to service.
I'm guessing any frames stored over a year might fit that category?


Any frame that gets near to two years while stored is in for a c check. 7500 cycles or 730 days.
 
LDRA
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:01 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:28 pm

keesje wrote:
:arrow: Apparently U.S. and European regulators have asked Boeing to revise documentation on its proposed 737 Max software fix that was submitted last week.

Boeings side of the story:
Boeing spokesman Gordon Johndroe said Wednesday the company “provided technical documentation to the regulators as part of the software validation process. The documentation was complete, and it was provided in a format consistent with past submissions. Regulators have requested that the information be conveyed in a different form, and the documentation is being revised accordingly.”


An other source: tells:
One person briefed on the matter characterized the issue differently and said Boeing’s paperwork had gaps, was substandard and meant regulators could not complete the audit, a crucial step before the plane can be certified to return to service.


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/07/regulators-want-revised-boeing-737-max-software-documentation.html

II wonder how it is possible to provide documentation that gets rejected by FAA and ESA instantly, after all that happened and became clear? Maybe they are not used anymore to people seriously reviewing / questioning the content? Amazing situation IMO.


Lol I guess Boeing forgot ghe cover sheet on their homework assignment
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8344
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:47 am

LDRA wrote:
Lol I guess Boeing forgot ghe cover sheet on their homework assignment


But the professor always gives me A+ even if I forget to write my name.

Pun aside, even if the ball is in FAA court, no one is going to put pressure on the FAA to speed up the process.
All posts are just opinions.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10337
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:08 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
LDRA wrote:
Lol I guess Boeing forgot ghe cover sheet on their homework assignment


But the professor always gives me A+ even if I forget to write my name.

Pun aside, even if the ball is in FAA court, no one is going to put pressure on the FAA to speed up the process.

Good to see that the FAA has regained trust and confidence in such a short space of time, does that means there is also hope for Boeing?
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1756
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:01 am

So will these fixes solve the underlying problem that the MAX is an unstable airplane at baseline? So it'll still have a tendency to stall more often than comparable airplanes, right? So what's the software going to actually fix?
 
planecane
Posts: 1572
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:54 am

shmerik wrote:
par13del wrote:
I am somewhat shocked that the FAA test flights have not been completed, we have seen a number of test flights with the MAX-7, is it that the FAA does not have the resources to conduct multiple examinations at the same time?
The other interesting one...Boeing final submission to the FAA, according to the head of the FAA this was already done, is this article really current or an update of something that was put out a couple weeks ago? If the testing reveals additional problems, then yes, corrections have to be made and another submission, but so far, we have not heard of any test failure just confusion of whether the documentation has gaps versus format errors.


I'm surprised that they test the simulator before testing the actual plane, I would have thought that you'd verify the sim after experiencing the real deal to make sure that it's accurate


Why would you be surprised? You ALWAYS want to test in a simulator first. It's an engineering simulator that uses actual production hardware and software, not a training simulator.

This is how all development is done. In a former life I designed electronic hardware for cell phones. When we developed a new generation, the microprocessors, DSPs and associated hardware were installed on "breadboards" so that the software teams could test the software on production hardware but without the final product existing yet.

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