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Interested
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:11 am

Totally agree about new management being needed at Boeing.

In this situation they should be working with all the regulators not against them

They haven't learnt from how they got in this situation in the first place

The regulators are not the bad guys here.
 
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InsideMan
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:25 am

planecane wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Both flights flew with the same faulty sensor.


And the first crew had no idea MCAS existed. But please continue .. :roll:


Which lends credence to Boeing's position during certification that they didn't need to know and would recover with the runaway stabilizer NNC...

Yes, I know, 3rd pilot, blah blah blah. It doesn't change the fact that they had no idea MCAS existed and were able to recover from an MCAS failure.


Oh Jesus, here we go again blaming the pilots.....

I guess we both agree that designing a house with a balcony without some kind of guard rail is bad design, right?
So when someone falls off the balcony and miraculously hangs on to the ledge and is able to climb back up means that the design is still good enough???
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:42 am

AABusDrvr wrote:
FWIW, I have never seen the STS or autopilot trim for more than 3 or 4 seconds, 10 seconds is a very long time for the trim to run. It's not normal, ever, unless you are the one doing it.

MCAS did not run for 10 seconds.
More than 90% of all MCAS activations in history of mankind were very short. Maybe 1, 2 or 3 seconds. Because after each correction by the electrical trim MCAS stopped. As attempting to control the pitch by the electrical trim is one of the early steps in the trim runaway NNC, the checklist dozens of time ended right there. If runaway stops -> checklist completed.

This happened in parallel with multiple (at least three) false alarms, that overwhelmed the crew and caused tunnel vision. Their attention was completely focused on the things that were wrongly indicated as failures.

I challenge you to find any incident in aviation history, where 3 false alarms and a silently working real fault of hazardous character were all resolved at the same time and no crash happened. It is not the fault of pilots, if such a scenario ends up in a crash.

Therefore Muilenburg recently said, we don't blame the pilots....
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
AABusDrvr
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:07 pm

rheinwaldner wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
FWIW, I have never seen the STS or autopilot trim for more than 3 or 4 seconds, 10 seconds is a very long time for the trim to run. It's not normal, ever, unless you are the one doing it.

MCAS did not run for 10 seconds.
More than 90% of all MCAS activations in history of mankind were very short. Maybe 1, 2 or 3 seconds. Because after each correction by the electrical trim MCAS stopped. As attempting to control the pitch by the electrical trim is one of the early steps in the trim runaway NNC, the checklist dozens of time ended right there. If runaway stops -> checklist completed.

This happened in parallel with multiple (at least three) false alarms, that overwhelmed the crew and caused tunnel vision. Their attention was completely focused on the things that were wrongly indicated as failures.

I challenge you to find any incident in aviation history, where 3 false alarms and a silently working real fault of hazardous character were all resolved at the same time and no crash happened. It is not the fault of pilots, if such a scenario ends up in a crash.

Therefore Muilenburg recently said, we don't blame the pilots....


I'm not blaming the crews, but I find their performance concerning.

If the trim runs AND for long enough to get the airplane out of trim, but it stops when I trim ANU, and five seconds later it does the same thing, over, and over and over again, I should just sit there and watch it happen, because it doesn't exactly match the condition statement in the QRH? Not a chance. The same with the AP or AT. If it isn't behaving like I expect it to, I'm going to turn it off, disable it if necessary, and carry on.

At a quick glance, I count 14 MCAS activations of 5 seconds or longer, before it was countered on Lionair, with the first one being the full 10 seconds. ET shows the first activation of 9 seconds, around six for the second.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:26 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
FWIW, I have never seen the STS or autopilot trim for more than 3 or 4 seconds, 10 seconds is a very long time for the trim to run. It's not normal, ever, unless you are the one doing it.

MCAS did not run for 10 seconds.
More than 90% of all MCAS activations in history of mankind were very short. Maybe 1, 2 or 3 seconds. Because after each correction by the electrical trim MCAS stopped. As attempting to control the pitch by the electrical trim is one of the early steps in the trim runaway NNC, the checklist dozens of time ended right there. If runaway stops -> checklist completed.

This happened in parallel with multiple (at least three) false alarms, that overwhelmed the crew and caused tunnel vision. Their attention was completely focused on the things that were wrongly indicated as failures.

I challenge you to find any incident in aviation history, where 3 false alarms and a silently working real fault of hazardous character were all resolved at the same time and no crash happened. It is not the fault of pilots, if such a scenario ends up in a crash.

Therefore Muilenburg recently said, we don't blame the pilots....


I'm not blaming the crews, but I find their performance concerning.

If the trim runs AND for long enough to get the airplane out of trim, but it stops when I trim ANU, and five seconds later it does the same thing, over, and over and over again, I should just sit there and watch it happen, because it doesn't exactly match the condition statement in the QRH? Not a chance. The same with the AP or AT. If it isn't behaving like I expect it to, I'm going to turn it off, disable it if necessary, and carry on.

At a quick glance, I count 14 MCAS activations of 5 seconds or longer, before it was countered on Lionair, with the first one being the full 10 seconds. ET shows the first activation of 9 seconds, around six for the second.


Exactly. It's not about apportioning blame. It's about figuring what went wrong in the crashes and making sure that everything is fixed for the future as there will be other issues that crop up in the future on other designs as well.

You can't just fix one thing and cross your fingers and hope nothing ever goes wrong with a frame again, be it from crappy design, bad maintenance or parts failure. You need pilots to be able to deal with unusual situations or when presented with an identifiable issue be able to find or know from memory a NNC checklist and run it.

Bash on me all you want but remember AABusdriver has a lot of experience on A320 and the 737 and is a check pilot. He has a pretty good idea of what airlines should be teaching and what crews should know stone cold.

I thank him for his participation here. The "if we just fix the MAX everything will be perfect again in aviation crowd" has driven away many other very qualified posters like him that we can all learn something from.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:07 pm

morrisond wrote:
The "if we just fix the MAX everything will be perfect again in aviation crowd" has driven away many other very qualified posters like him that we can all learn something from.
Still the same practice that looped so many times already without any progress.... :melting:
Global training is simply not the subject of this thread, and not the way to handle the 737-8/9 MAX design issues, as you perfectly know.
Global training is still important and all understand that an improvement will be an advantage. But looping this off topic subject here will not change anything but continue to annoying contributors that follow the very subject of this thread: the grounding and production halt. Many have suggest you to open a specific thread for global training, because yes, this is a subject of improvement. This is just unrelated to the 737-8/9 MAX. So please do not view contributors here as your enemy and to assign exaggerated point of view to them to justify your off topic loop. Don't confuse disagreement with win/loss or true/false attitude.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:17 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
No one with any common sense would just sit there and watch the stab trim run for 10 seconds, especially if it happened ,multiple times, without doing something about it. Basic airmanship and all that.


You can expect them to notice on a level flight, not just after take-off with multiple false indications scenario.
All posts are just opinions.
 
pune
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:18 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
The "if we just fix the MAX everything will be perfect again in aviation crowd" has driven away many other very qualified posters like him that we can all learn something from.
Still the same practice that looped so many times already without any progress.... :melting:
Global training is simply not the subject of this thread, and not the way to handle the 737-8/9 MAX design issues, as you perfectly know.
Global training is still important and all understand that an improvement will be an advantage. But looping this off topic subject here will not change anything but continue to annoying contributors that follow the very subject of this thread: the grounding and production halt. Many have suggest you to open a specific thread for global training, because yes, this is a subject of improvement. This is just unrelated to the 737-8/9 MAX. So please do not view contributors here as your enemy and to assign exaggerated point of view to them to justify your off topic loop. Don't confuse disagreement with win/loss or true/false attitude.


+1000% in fact don't think you will find a single poster who would be willing to let go of $1 more as has been suggested for pilot training, whether that will go towards pilot training or something else is another question altogether. In fact, I would say that airports could also have some fun sorta fly sim where youngsters could figure out some of the things pilots do, that will make them appreciate the work pilots do and also let airport have some much needed non-air revenue. Of course you could always say as something X would be better to make revenues. I, for one would be willing to spend a few dollars on something like that once I have checked in my bags and waiting for my flight . Even some ISRO/NASA astronaut sim might be good. The catchment area while waiting is a good way for people to understand some science and have fun at the same time. I'm sure some airports around the world might have something like that, dunno.
 
XRAYretired
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:20 pm

Ky speaks.
https://www.ft.com/content/8723dc6e-22e ... 4213ee7b2b

Good news for everyone
'....The current global effort to establish the safety of the 737 Max could offer a way forward. “I think we are working extremely well, with true complementarity between the technical teams, with real teamwork and complete transparency,” he said....'

'...Remaining milestones included validation of new software on the flight control computer, simulator testing, and test flights, which were scheduled for January. Training requirements also had to be established, he said....'

'....he expected to approve the 737 Max’s return to service in Europe by the end of February.....'

he hoped to give the green light at roughly the same time as the FAA,.......although there could be a short gap of a few days or weeks....'

Bad news for the ultra-nationalists (but it will give them something to rail against).
'.... Boeing needs more oversight from international regulators, according to the EU’s aviation safety chief, after weaknesses in US oversight were exposed following two fatal crashes of the 737 Max jet....'

Ray
Last edited by XRAYretired on Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:28 pm

morrisond wrote:
Bash on me all you want but remember AABusdriver has a lot of experience on A320 and the 737 and is a check pilot. He has a pretty good idea of what airlines should be teaching and what crews should know stone cold.

I thank him for his participation here. The "if we just fix the MAX everything will be perfect again in aviation crowd" has driven away many other very qualified posters like him that we can all learn something from.


Pray, tell us what exactly needs to be fixed with pilot training, then? Since you keep coming here repeating that there is a training problem.

And if there is a training problem, why weren't airplane falling off the sky every few months before the MAX?

This is getting exhausting.... :sigh:
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:45 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
It also says this in the 737 QRH:

"While every attempt is made to supply needed non–normal checklists, it is not possible to develop checklists for all conceivable situations. In some smoke, fire or fumes situations, the flight crew may need to move between the Smoke, Fire or Fumes checklist and the Smoke or Fumes Removal checklist. In some multiple failure situations, the flight crew may need to combine the elements of more than one checklist. In all situations, the captain must assess the situation and use good judgment to determine the safest course of action."

No one with any common sense would just sit there and watch the stab trim run for 10 seconds, especially if it happened ,multiple times, without doing something about it. Basic airmanship and all that.

With a little systems knowledge, you would know that the runaway stabilizer checklist would be the place to start. Remove all power to the offending system, stop the problem.

It'a the same for any automatic system, if it's not doing what you expect, or want it to do, you tun it off, AP/AT trim, whatever.

FWIW, I have never seen the STS or autopilot trim for more than 3 or 4 seconds, 10 seconds is a very long time for the trim to run. It's not normal, ever, unless you are the one doing it.

:checkmark:

AABusDrvr wrote:
I'm not blaming the crews, but I find their performance concerning.

If the trim runs AND for long enough to get the airplane out of trim, but it stops when I trim ANU, and five seconds later it does the same thing, over, and over and over again, I should just sit there and watch it happen, because it doesn't exactly match the condition statement in the QRH? Not a chance. The same with the AP or AT. If it isn't behaving like I expect it to, I'm going to turn it off, disable it if necessary, and carry on.

At a quick glance, I count 14 MCAS activations of 5 seconds or longer, before it was countered on Lionair, with the first one being the full 10 seconds. ET shows the first activation of 9 seconds, around six for the second.

It makes one really wonder if the JT crew could have handled a "normal" runaway stabilizer.

InsideMan wrote:
I guess we both agree that designing a house with a balcony without some kind of guard rail is bad design, right?

The question being asked wasn't "is a guard rail a good idea", the question being asked is "could a person walk along a balcony without a guard rail".

We're talking about what should happen under abnormal circumstances, not what should the normal circumstances be.

Both Boeing and the worldwide regulators now say MCAS 1.0 is not acceptable, it demanded too much from the crew.

Unfortunately it took two crashes for Boeing and FAA to come to that conclusion, to their great shame.

Yet this won't be the last case where crews are expected to deal with abnormal circumstances.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
AABusDrvr
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:50 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
No one with any common sense would just sit there and watch the stab trim run for 10 seconds, especially if it happened ,multiple times, without doing something about it. Basic airmanship and all that.


You can expect them to notice on a level flight, not just after take-off with multiple false indications scenario.


I would expect any pilot who was hand flying the airplane, to notice it was becoming grossly out of trim, attempt to correct it, and if it kept happening, to take action to stop it from happening again, no matter what phase of flight they were in. Thats very basic pilot stuff.

IMHO this is a form of automation dependency. When you have airlines that encourage maximum use of automation, and discourage hand flying, you end up with pilots who don't understand how the airplane should feel, versus how it actually feels in different phases of flight. Throw in low experience pilots, and it only gets worse.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:59 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
Ky speaks.
https://www.ft.com/content/8723dc6e-22e ... 4213ee7b2b

Good news for everyone
'....The current global effort to establish the safety of the 737 Max could offer a way forward. “I think we are working extremely well, with true complementarity between the technical teams, with real teamwork and complete transparency,” he said....'

'...Remaining milestones included validation of new software on the flight control computer, simulator testing, and test flights, which were scheduled for January. Training requirements also had to be established, he said....'

'....he expected to approve the 737 Max’s return to service in Europe by the end of February.....'

he hoped to give the green light at roughly the same time as the FAA,.......although there could be a short gap of a few days or weeks....'

Bad news for the ultra-nationalists (but it will give them something to rail against).
'.... Boeing needs more oversight from international regulators, according to the EU’s aviation safety chief, after weaknesses in US oversight were exposed following two fatal crashes of the 737 Max jet....'

Ray

I think we can assume Mr. Ky is aware of the concerns in the Transport Canada e-mail, no?

I think the comment about Boeing needing more oversight is justified.

Boeing and FAA needs to do find a way to get the international regulators to regain trust in them.

The highlighted date suggests that some of those predicting that MAX would never fly again or that it would be grounded for a year need to reel in their rhetoric since we have a real world estimate independent of Boeing and FAA of the time frame for RTS.

It also supports the idea that Boeing halted production to conserve cash and focus on getting the stored frames back in service first rather than some unspecified deeper flaw blocking RTS.

Maybe the cigar is just a cigar.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:06 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
Ky speaks.
https://www.ft.com/content/8723dc6e-22e ... 4213ee7b2b

Good news for everyone
'....The current global effort to establish the safety of the 737 Max could offer a way forward. “I think we are working extremely well, with true complementarity between the technical teams, with real teamwork and complete transparency,” he said....'

'...Remaining milestones included validation of new software on the flight control computer, simulator testing, and test flights, which were scheduled for January. Training requirements also had to be established, he said....'

'....he expected to approve the 737 Max’s return to service in Europe by the end of February.....'

he hoped to give the green light at roughly the same time as the FAA,.......although there could be a short gap of a few days or weeks....'

Bad news for the ultra-nationalists (but it will give them something to rail against).
'.... Boeing needs more oversight from international regulators, according to the EU’s aviation safety chief, after weaknesses in US oversight were exposed following two fatal crashes of the 737 Max jet....'

Ray

Something is obviously off with either his time lines or that given by FAA's sources.

Assuming the information was provided by the head of the FAA, the JOEB will be completed in Jan-2020, the final FSB report will be completed in Feb-2020 and the Airworthiness Directive that would end the grounding would be done in March-2020. Unless the writer of the article below has incorrect or outdated information and the web site has not been updated?
https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... ax-return/
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:09 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
IMHO this is a form of automation dependency. When you have airlines that encourage maximum use of automation, and discourage hand flying, you end up with pilots who don't understand how the airplane should feel, versus how it actually feels in different phases of flight. Throw in low experience pilots, and it only gets worse.


The sales pitch of western airframe sellers is automation, fewer crew members and cheap and easy training. What you are suggesting is to buy a Tupolov.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:32 pm

par13del wrote:
Something is obviously off with either his time lines or that given by FAA's sources.

Assuming the information was provided by the head of the FAA, the JOEB will be completed in Jan-2020, the final FSB report will be completed in Feb-2020 and the Airworthiness Directive that would end the grounding would be done in March-2020. Unless the writer of the article below has incorrect or outdated information and the web site has not been updated?
https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... ax-return/

Ky says end Feb, Jon O says March, more similar than different.

The tie goes to the guy who is the head of EASA as opposed to the guy who is a journalist.

dtw2hyd wrote:
The sales pitch of western airframe sellers is automation, fewer crew members and cheap and easy training.

Such a sales pitch is said to be a large part of the reason why we have the MAX crisis.

I'm not sure I buy that (Boeing's engineering team should have never let MCAS 1.0 out the door regardless of what Marketing wanted) but still the reality is that all airplanes have circumstances where the crew needs to step in to save the day, just like the self driving automobile still needs humans to step in more often than most people who don't drive one think.

I think we get lulled by all the cool things self driving cars do, but that's because we all know how to drive already so the cases where humans have to take over aren't seen as a problem. Put a bunch of non drivers in the seat and you'd get an unacceptable number of accidents.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:37 pm

Revelation wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
It also says this in the 737 QRH:

"While every attempt is made to supply needed non–normal checklists, it is not possible to develop checklists for all conceivable situations. In some smoke, fire or fumes situations, the flight crew may need to move between the Smoke, Fire or Fumes checklist and the Smoke or Fumes Removal checklist. In some multiple failure situations, the flight crew may need to combine the elements of more than one checklist. In all situations, the captain must assess the situation and use good judgment to determine the safest course of action."

No one with any common sense would just sit there and watch the stab trim run for 10 seconds, especially if it happened ,multiple times, without doing something about it. Basic airmanship and all that.

With a little systems knowledge, you would know that the runaway stabilizer checklist would be the place to start. Remove all power to the offending system, stop the problem.

It'a the same for any automatic system, if it's not doing what you expect, or want it to do, you tun it off, AP/AT trim, whatever.

FWIW, I have never seen the STS or autopilot trim for more than 3 or 4 seconds, 10 seconds is a very long time for the trim to run. It's not normal, ever, unless you are the one doing it.

:checkmark:.


That is wrong though, as on a NG automatic trim is cut off when you pull back on the stick, that override switch was removed from the MAX, but that was never communicated to the crews before the crashes. So even with full system knowledge of the NG, they would have been on the wrong foot. With full information on the systems on the MAX they should have handled the problem with ease, but that was not given to them nor available at the time.
 
maint123
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:43 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
IMHO this is a form of automation dependency. When you have airlines that encourage maximum use of automation, and discourage hand flying, you end up with pilots who don't understand how the airplane should feel, versus how it actually feels in different phases of flight. Throw in low experience pilots, and it only gets worse.


The sales pitch of western airframe sellers is automation, fewer crew members and cheap and easy training. What you are suggesting is to buy a Tupolov.

Nothing wrong with all western stuff. It's the American stuff which is really not reliable enough. And it's not a recent phenomenon. Been like this for decades. Whether its cars or space shuttles or even industrial plants. It's always the germans or the Japanese who are renowned for their quality. And you read about monthly industrial accidents in the US. Their is a rush to market half baked stuff. And the brain washing of a average american has lead to these crashes. At least the 2nd crash could have been prevented if they were not busy blaming the 3rd world. The 2nd crash is a case of criminal negligence in any country.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:45 pm

Revelation wrote:
Ky says end Feb, Jon O says March, more similar than different.

The tie goes to the guy who is the head of EASA as opposed to the guy who is a journalist.


Unless EASA intends to RTS before the FAA, it would discredit the FAA person who provided the information, hopefully, someone somewhere will provide clarification.
I thought the FAA dates were realistic and provided to Boeing during the "come to Jesus" meeting which was why Boeing initiated the shutdown versus a drastic cut in production.
A Feb-2020 RTS by EASA would be a Jan-2020 clearance by the FAA, Boeing shutting down in Jan-2020 if they knew that timeline makes no sense.
A Mar-2020 RTS by the FAA being 3 months out would make a shut down a better financial decision.

So far no one is saying that Boeing's proposed shut down has driven this revelation of a RTS, all we had previous was speculation on hardware fixes, problems that could not be solved, production issues, etc etc etc.

Time will tell.
 
NonTechAvLover
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:48 pm

maint123 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
IMHO this is a form of automation dependency. When you have airlines that encourage maximum use of automation, and discourage hand flying, you end up with pilots who don't understand how the airplane should feel, versus how it actually feels in different phases of flight. Throw in low experience pilots, and it only gets worse.


The sales pitch of western airframe sellers is automation, fewer crew members and cheap and easy training. What you are suggesting is to buy a Tupolov.

Nothing wrong with all western stuff. It's the American stuff which is really not reliable enough. And it's not a recent phenomenon. Been like this for decades. Whether its cars or space shuttles or even industrial plants. It's always the germans or the Japanese who are renowned for their quality. And you read about monthly industrial accidents in the US. Their is a rush to market half baked stuff. And the brain washing of a average american has lead to these crashes. At least the 2nd crash could have been prevented if they were not busy blaming the 3rd world. The 2nd crash is a case of criminal negligence in any country.


Germans and Japanese renowned for the quality of their space shuttles?
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:49 pm

InsideMan wrote:
planecane wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:

And the first crew had no idea MCAS existed. But please continue .. :roll:


Which lends credence to Boeing's position during certification that they didn't need to know and would recover with the runaway stabilizer NNC...

Yes, I know, 3rd pilot, blah blah blah. It doesn't change the fact that they had no idea MCAS existed and were able to recover from an MCAS failure.


Oh Jesus, here we go again blaming the pilots.....

I guess we both agree that designing a house with a balcony without some kind of guard rail is bad design, right?
So when someone falls off the balcony and miraculously hangs on to the ledge and is able to climb back up means that the design is still good enough???


No, I wasn't "blaming the pilots." I was responding to the post saying that the first crew had no idea MCAS existed and stating that the fact that they didn't but recognized the failure as a runaway stabilizer, performed the NNC and landed safely shows that it wasn't some crazy fantasy by Boeing that crews would respond that way.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:52 pm

seahawk wrote:
Revelation wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
It also says this in the 737 QRH:

"While every attempt is made to supply needed non–normal checklists, it is not possible to develop checklists for all conceivable situations. In some smoke, fire or fumes situations, the flight crew may need to move between the Smoke, Fire or Fumes checklist and the Smoke or Fumes Removal checklist. In some multiple failure situations, the flight crew may need to combine the elements of more than one checklist. In all situations, the captain must assess the situation and use good judgment to determine the safest course of action."

No one with any common sense would just sit there and watch the stab trim run for 10 seconds, especially if it happened ,multiple times, without doing something about it. Basic airmanship and all that.

With a little systems knowledge, you would know that the runaway stabilizer checklist would be the place to start. Remove all power to the offending system, stop the problem.

It'a the same for any automatic system, if it's not doing what you expect, or want it to do, you tun it off, AP/AT trim, whatever.

FWIW, I have never seen the STS or autopilot trim for more than 3 or 4 seconds, 10 seconds is a very long time for the trim to run. It's not normal, ever, unless you are the one doing it.

:checkmark:.


That is wrong though, as on a NG automatic trim is cut off when you pull back on the stick, that override switch was removed from the MAX, but that was never communicated to the crews before the crashes. So even with full system knowledge of the NG, they would have been on the wrong foot. With full information on the systems on the MAX they should have handled the problem with ease, but that was not given to them nor available at the time.


I'm pretty sure that the block diagram posted a few months, a few threads and a few thousand posts ago showed the switches still exist. They just don't stop MCAS because, if they did then MCAS could never operate as designed.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:53 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
Ky speaks.
https://www.ft.com/content/8723dc6e-22e ... 4213ee7b2b

Good news for everyone
'....The current global effort to establish the safety of the 737 Max could offer a way forward. “I think we are working extremely well, with true complementarity between the technical teams, with real teamwork and complete transparency,” he said....'

'...Remaining milestones included validation of new software on the flight control computer, simulator testing, and test flights, which were scheduled for January. Training requirements also had to be established, he said....'

'....he expected to approve the 737 Max’s return to service in Europe by the end of February.....'

he hoped to give the green light at roughly the same time as the FAA,.......although there could be a short gap of a few days or weeks....'

Bad news for the ultra-nationalists (but it will give them something to rail against).
'.... Boeing needs more oversight from international regulators, according to the EU’s aviation safety chief, after weaknesses in US oversight were exposed following two fatal crashes of the 737 Max jet....'

Ray

Many good news from EASA. Strange that Boeing act like there didn't know. The FAA get an another blame.
From a technical point of view, I am still curious to known how there processed subjects like:
* Computer redundancy.
* Manual trim wheel at high speed.
* Trim cable protection against engine failure.
* Automation trim cutoff switch.
* Flight envelop in case of MCAS disabled.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:04 pm

par13del wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Ky says end Feb, Jon O says March, more similar than different.

The tie goes to the guy who is the head of EASA as opposed to the guy who is a journalist.


Unless EASA intends to RTS before the FAA, it would discredit the FAA person who provided the information, hopefully, someone somewhere will provide clarification.
I thought the FAA dates were realistic and provided to Boeing during the "come to Jesus" meeting which was why Boeing initiated the shutdown versus a drastic cut in production.
A Feb-2020 RTS by EASA would be a Jan-2020 clearance by the FAA, Boeing shutting down in Jan-2020 if they knew that timeline makes no sense.
A Mar-2020 RTS by the FAA being 3 months out would make a shut down a better financial decision.

So far no one is saying that Boeing's proposed shut down has driven this revelation of a RTS, all we had previous was speculation on hardware fixes, problems that could not be solved, production issues, etc etc etc.

Time will tell.


The goal for EASA is to have the RTS within a few days of the FAA.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:04 pm

seahawk wrote:
Revelation wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
It also says this in the 737 QRH:

"While every attempt is made to supply needed non–normal checklists, it is not possible to develop checklists for all conceivable situations. In some smoke, fire or fumes situations, the flight crew may need to move between the Smoke, Fire or Fumes checklist and the Smoke or Fumes Removal checklist. In some multiple failure situations, the flight crew may need to combine the elements of more than one checklist. In all situations, the captain must assess the situation and use good judgment to determine the safest course of action."

No one with any common sense would just sit there and watch the stab trim run for 10 seconds, especially if it happened ,multiple times, without doing something about it. Basic airmanship and all that.

With a little systems knowledge, you would know that the runaway stabilizer checklist would be the place to start. Remove all power to the offending system, stop the problem.

It'a the same for any automatic system, if it's not doing what you expect, or want it to do, you tun it off, AP/AT trim, whatever.

FWIW, I have never seen the STS or autopilot trim for more than 3 or 4 seconds, 10 seconds is a very long time for the trim to run. It's not normal, ever, unless you are the one doing it.

:checkmark:.


That is wrong though, as on a NG automatic trim is cut off when you pull back on the stick, that override switch was removed from the MAX, but that was never communicated to the crews before the crashes. So even with full system knowledge of the NG, they would have been on the wrong foot. With full information on the systems on the MAX they should have handled the problem with ease, but that was not given to them nor available at the time.


I can only speak for the training programs that I've been through, but we were never taught to rely on the control wheel trim cutout, to stop a runaway trim.


maint123 wrote:
Nothing wrong with all western stuff. It's the American stuff which is really not reliable enough. And it's not a recent phenomenon. Been like this for decades. Whether its cars or space shuttles or even industrial plants. It's always the germans or the Japanese who are renowned for their quality. And you read about monthly industrial accidents in the US. Their is a rush to market half baked stuff. And the brain washing of a average american has lead to these crashes. At least the 2nd crash could have been prevented if they were not busy blaming the 3rd world. The 2nd crash is a case of criminal negligence in any country.


A bunch of the guys at the place I have work on my Audi, would strongly disagree with you, about the reliability of German cars. And considering how much money and shop time the Audi, my ex's BMW cost over it's life I tend to agree with them. My old Mustang was much more reliable.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:13 pm

NonTechAvLover wrote:
maint123 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

The sales pitch of western airframe sellers is automation, fewer crew members and cheap and easy training. What you are suggesting is to buy a Tupolov.

Nothing wrong with all western stuff. It's the American stuff which is really not reliable enough. And it's not a recent phenomenon. Been like this for decades. Whether its cars or space shuttles or even industrial plants. It's always the germans or the Japanese who are renowned for their quality. And you read about monthly industrial accidents in the US. Their is a rush to market half baked stuff. And the brain washing of a average american has lead to these crashes. At least the 2nd crash could have been prevented if they were not busy blaming the 3rd world. The 2nd crash is a case of criminal negligence in any country.


Germans and Japanese renowned for the quality of their space shuttles?


The space shuttle is not really of great quality. Crash rate is pretty high, starts were almost never on schedule and there is a reason we now use Russian technology to bring people to space and said technology is as old as the shuttle but did not fail the test of time.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:26 pm

Francoflier wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Bash on me all you want but remember AABusdriver has a lot of experience on A320 and the 737 and is a check pilot. He has a pretty good idea of what airlines should be teaching and what crews should know stone cold.

I thank him for his participation here. The "if we just fix the MAX everything will be perfect again in aviation crowd" has driven away many other very qualified posters like him that we can all learn something from.


Pray, tell us what exactly needs to be fixed with pilot training, then? Since you keep coming here repeating that there is a training problem.

And if there is a training problem, why weren't airplane falling off the sky every few months before the MAX?

This is getting exhausting.... :sigh:


For one? Implement FAA mandated EET (Extended Envelope Training)/Stall training worldwide. Bash on the FAA all you want but they seem to be the only ones advocating for that - which if implemented years ago could have saved a lot more lives than lost in the MAX disasters.

How about proper crew CRM which has seems absent in all the Major disasters in the last 10-15 years, how to run a NNC checklist, how to use the QRH and find it in the cockpit.

The list is pretty long.

Planes aren't falling out of the sky as the Automation is getting so good it rarely fails so gaps in the skills above thankfully rarely show themselves - but they are basic pilot skills that need to be mastered and constantly practiced so when needed come to mind as second nature.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:31 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
The space shuttle is not really of great quality. Crash rate is pretty high, starts were almost never on schedule and there is a reason we now use Russian technology to bring people to space and said technology is as old as the shuttle but did not fail the test of time.


I know new members have to pass a sarcasm test, so I will not bite. :bouncy:
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:10 pm

morrisond wrote:
Implement FAA mandated EET (Extended Envelope Training)/Stall training worldwide. Bash on the FAA all you want but they seem to be the only ones advocating for that - which if implemented years ago could have saved a lot more lives than lost in the MAX disasters.

Have you even read that EET document ? https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/121.423#
It have nothing related to something like MCAS nor to something related to a runaway stabilizer.
And it have not prevented GTI3591 http://avherald.com/h?article=4c497c3c/0000&opt=0
Please debate this in an more appropriate thread.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:19 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
FWIW, I have never seen the STS or autopilot trim for more than 3 or 4 seconds, 10 seconds is a very long time for the trim to run. It's not normal, ever, unless you are the one doing it.

MCAS did not run for 10 seconds.
More than 90% of all MCAS activations in history of mankind were very short. Maybe 1, 2 or 3 seconds. Because after each correction by the electrical trim MCAS stopped. As attempting to control the pitch by the electrical trim is one of the early steps in the trim runaway NNC, the checklist dozens of time ended right there. If runaway stops -> checklist completed.

This happened in parallel with multiple (at least three) false alarms, that overwhelmed the crew and caused tunnel vision. Their attention was completely focused on the things that were wrongly indicated as failures.
I challenge you to find any incident in aviation history, where 3 false alarms and a silently working real fault of hazardous character were all resolved at the same time and no crash happened. It is not the fault of pilots, if such a scenario ends up in a crash.
Therefore Muilenburg recently said, we don't blame the pilots....

If the trim runs AND for long enough to get the airplane out of trim, but it stops when I trim ANU, and five seconds later it does the same thing, over, and over and over again, I should just sit there and watch it happen, because it doesn't exactly match the condition statement in the QRH? Not a chance. The same with the AP or AT. If it isn't behaving like I expect it to, I'm going to turn it off, disable it if necessary, and carry on.

At a quick glance, I count 14 MCAS activations of 5 seconds or longer, before it was countered on Lionair, with the first one being the full 10 seconds. ET shows the first activation of 9 seconds, around six for the second.


They were having pitch control problems, heavy control column.

They knew that electric trimming worked, while control column was heavy.

They did not understand the nature of the control problems (not to mention several other *important* warnings at the same time), unlike the armchair accident investigators here that continue to wonder why they did not just simply shut the d**n thing off.

I can understand that may have caused a mental barrier to shut down the one thing that *did work for them*: manual electric trimming, while they sort out why Stick Shaker, Stall Warning, Master Caution Anti-Ice, Unreliable Air Speed. Trimming issues usually should not top out the priority list of these problems . . .
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:21 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
NonTechAvLover wrote:
Germans and Japanese renowned for the quality of their space shuttles?

The space shuttle is not really of great quality. Crash rate is pretty high, starts were almost never on schedule and there is a reason we now use Russian technology to bring people to space and said technology is as old as the shuttle but did not fail the test of time.

Points to the Russians for durable core technology but we're till waiting for that German, Japanese or Russian self landing reusable rocket while we have two different US ones to chose from (SpaceX, Blue Origin).
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:24 pm

Revelation wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
NonTechAvLover wrote:
Germans and Japanese renowned for the quality of their space shuttles?

The space shuttle is not really of great quality. Crash rate is pretty high, starts were almost never on schedule and there is a reason we now use Russian technology to bring people to space and said technology is as old as the shuttle but did not fail the test of time.

Points to the Russians for durable core technology but we're till waiting for that German, Japanese or Russian self landing reusable rocket while we have two different US ones to chose from (SpaceX, Blue Origin).

Did you realize that the brand new Boeing CST-100 Starliner crew capsule failed today ?
https://youtu.be/Yq14pJnJgSI?t=86
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:33 pm

planecane wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Trim runaway should be a required Memory NNC procedure for all aircraft.
Not being able to run a Trim Runaway NNC is a worldwide training issue - it's not MAX specific and should not be considered optional for any airplane.

If you look at Runaway stabilizer checklist, the condition explained as "Uncommanded stabilizer trim movement occurs continuously"
MCAS Uncommanded stabilizer trim movement occurs 10 seconds on and 5 seconds off, i believe the right word is continually.
MCAS behavior doesn't match Runaway stabilizer condition.


Please, not this again. When it runs for almost 10 seconds, that is "continuous" movement. The regulators seem to think that runaway stabilizer should be recognized within 3 seconds. The trim wheels, when doing something intended, do not sit there and just zip away for that long.
You could argue that because the pilots weren't told of MCAS, that ANY intended, properly functioning, MCAS activation could be recognized as a runaway stabilizer. Especially, if it is a condition that requires the full authority of MCAS.


I still don't understand how Boeing expected crew *not* to shut off Pitch Trimming when MCAS cycle is for almost 10 seconds, if at the same time they expected crew to hit the Cut Out Switches within 3 seconds of continuously (un-commanded) pitch trimming.

By that logic, there should be no reason to have an MCAS cycle of longer than three or four seconds, because after four seconds it should by definition be considered trim run-away and Cut-Out Switches were supposed to be thrown.

The fact that Boeing programmed MCAS not for three seconds, not for five seconds, but for almost 10 seconds means that they expected crew not to hit the Cut-Out Switches during a 10-second MCAS cycle. If MCAS cycle was cut short by crew throwing Cut-Out Switches, MCAS would not be suitable for its original intended task.

And if Boeing would expect crew to consider MCAS as commanded trim activation (rather than un-commanded) then they should have informed the pilots in the FCO, training manual, and considering the critical nature of the thing, also in sim sessions. But no, it was not even mentioned in the 90 minute conversion slide show.

Layers of layers of gigantic Swiss holes all around (and yet some focus 95% of their posts on the tiny small hole called worldwide pilot (training) standards).
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:35 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
No one with any common sense would just sit there and watch the stab trim run for 10 seconds, especially if it happened ,multiple times, without doing something about it. Basic airmanship and all that.


You can expect them to notice on a level flight, not just after take-off with multiple false indications scenario.


I would expect any pilot who was hand flying the airplane, to notice it was becoming grossly out of trim, attempt to correct it, and if it kept happening, to take action to stop it from happening again, no matter what phase of flight they were in. Thats very basic pilot stuff.

IMHO this is a form of automation dependency. When you have airlines that encourage maximum use of automation, and discourage hand flying, you end up with pilots who don't understand how the airplane should feel, versus how it actually feels in different phases of flight. Throw in low experience pilots, and it only gets worse.


For anyone on this thread who has no experience flying transport category commercial aircraft, PLEASE reread this post and try to understand what is being said. Although MCAS v1 and Boeing’s implementation of this new system on the Max were complete disasters, what AABusDrvr is saying cannot be understated.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:37 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
Revelation wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
The space shuttle is not really of great quality. Crash rate is pretty high, starts were almost never on schedule and there is a reason we now use Russian technology to bring people to space and said technology is as old as the shuttle but did not fail the test of time.

Points to the Russians for durable core technology but we're till waiting for that German, Japanese or Russian self landing reusable rocket while we have two different US ones to chose from (SpaceX, Blue Origin).

Did you realize that the brand new Boeing CST-100 Starliner crew capsule failed today ?
https://youtu.be/Yq14pJnJgSI?t=86

How does a test flight failure negate what I wrote, we're still waiting for that German, Japanese or Russian self landing reusable rocket while we have two different US ones to chose from (SpaceX, Blue Origin).
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:40 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
Ky speaks.
https://www.ft.com/content/8723dc6e-22e ... 4213ee7b2b

Good news for everyone
'....The current global effort to establish the safety of the 737 Max could offer a way forward. “I think we are working extremely well, with true complementarity between the technical teams, with real teamwork and complete transparency,” he said....'
'...Remaining milestones included validation of new software on the flight control computer, simulator testing, and test flights, which were scheduled for January. Training requirements also had to be established, he said....'
'....he expected to approve the 737 Max’s return to service in Europe by the end of February.....'
he hoped to give the green light at roughly the same time as the FAA,.......although there could be a short gap of a few days or weeks....'

Bad news for the ultra-nationalists (but it will give them something to rail against).
'.... Boeing needs more oversight from international regulators, according to the EU’s aviation safety chief, after weaknesses in US oversight were exposed following two fatal crashes of the 737 Max jet....'

Ray


Kind oif ironic that EASA now speaks out on RtS date, when FAA told Boeing not to do just that.

Can we trim town down geo-political motivated posts? Thank you.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:48 pm

Revelation wrote:
I'm not sure I buy that (Boeing's engineering team should have never let MCAS 1.0 out the door regardless of what Marketing wanted) but still the reality is that all airplanes have circumstances where the crew needs to step in to save the day, just like the self driving automobile still needs humans to step in more often than most people who don't drive one think.

Interestingly enough (or not), the Boeing Starliner test flight failure could have been avoided if humans were aboard:

NASA and Boeing maintain that had crew been on board, they could have taken control of the situation. “We have the capability on board to stop the automation and take over manually to fly,” Nicole Mann, a NASA astronaut slated to fly on the first test flight of the Starliner next year, said during a press conference. She noted that they could have stopped the thrusters from firing, preventing all that fuel loss. They could have also manually started the engine burn themselves. Mann also claimed if they were on board right now, they could still come back home just fine. “We have the capability to live on on board for an extended period of time,” she said. They also could take over the entire process of landing if needed.

Ref: https://www.theverge.com/2019/12/20/210 ... lure-orbit

We move from "blame the pilots" to "blame the lack of pilots"?
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 4:54 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Revelation wrote:
:checkmark:.


That is wrong though, as on a NG automatic trim is cut off when you pull back on the stick, that override switch was removed from the MAX, but that was never communicated to the crews before the crashes. So even with full system knowledge of the NG, they would have been on the wrong foot. With full information on the systems on the MAX they should have handled the problem with ease, but that was not given to them nor available at the time.


I can only speak for the training programs that I've been through, but we were never taught to rely on the control wheel trim cutout, to stop a runaway trim.


But in a NG would it be a runaway trim if you pull back on the stick and electric trim works. Is there any failure condition on the NG in which this would be even possible, afaik no.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:04 pm

PW100 wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
MCAS did not run for 10 seconds.
More than 90% of all MCAS activations in history of mankind were very short. Maybe 1, 2 or 3 seconds. Because after each correction by the electrical trim MCAS stopped. As attempting to control the pitch by the electrical trim is one of the early steps in the trim runaway NNC, the checklist dozens of time ended right there. If runaway stops -> checklist completed.

This happened in parallel with multiple (at least three) false alarms, that overwhelmed the crew and caused tunnel vision. Their attention was completely focused on the things that were wrongly indicated as failures.
I challenge you to find any incident in aviation history, where 3 false alarms and a silently working real fault of hazardous character were all resolved at the same time and no crash happened. It is not the fault of pilots, if such a scenario ends up in a crash.
Therefore Muilenburg recently said, we don't blame the pilots....

If the trim runs AND for long enough to get the airplane out of trim, but it stops when I trim ANU, and five seconds later it does the same thing, over, and over and over again, I should just sit there and watch it happen, because it doesn't exactly match the condition statement in the QRH? Not a chance. The same with the AP or AT. If it isn't behaving like I expect it to, I'm going to turn it off, disable it if necessary, and carry on.

At a quick glance, I count 14 MCAS activations of 5 seconds or longer, before it was countered on Lionair, with the first one being the full 10 seconds. ET shows the first activation of 9 seconds, around six for the second.


They were having pitch control problems, heavy control column.

They knew that electric trimming worked, while control column was heavy.

They did not understand the nature of the control problems (not to mention several other *important* warnings at the same time), unlike the armchair accident investigators here that continue to wonder why they did not just simply shut the d**n thing off.

I can understand that may have caused a mental barrier to shut down the one thing that *did work for them*: manual electric trimming, while they sort out why Stick Shaker, Stall Warning, Master Caution Anti-Ice, Unreliable Air Speed. Trimming issues usually should not top out the priority list of these problems . . .


If you are pulling back for all your worth on the yoke, without any result, but you thought the electric pitch trim was still working properly, I would expect you would try and push your thumb through the rocker switches and hold it ANU until something changed.

I hate to bring up the all encompassing word airmanship again, but prioritization of tasks is a big part of it. Especially is a situation with multiple, cascading failures. None of the warnings you mentioned, or unreliable airspeed will kill you right now. A runaway stabilizer (either direction) will.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:06 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Implement FAA mandated EET (Extended Envelope Training)/Stall training worldwide. Bash on the FAA all you want but they seem to be the only ones advocating for that - which if implemented years ago could have saved a lot more lives than lost in the MAX disasters.

Have you even read that EET document ? https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/121.423#
It have nothing related to something like MCAS nor to something related to a runaway stabilizer.
And it have not prevented GTI3591 http://avherald.com/h?article=4c497c3c/0000&opt=0
Please debate this in an more appropriate thread.


Then don't comment on it. Francoflier was asking what was lacking in training - and you took a partial quote.

EET covers

121.423 Pilot: Extended Envelope Training.
(a) Each certificate holder must include in its approved training program, the extended envelope training set forth in this section with respect to each airplane type for each pilot. The extended envelope training required by this section must be performed in a Level C or higher full flight simulator, approved by the Administrator in accordance with § 121.407 of this part.

(b) Extended envelope training must include the following maneuvers and procedures:

(1) Manually controlled slow flight;

(2) Manually controlled loss of reliable airspeed;

(3) Manually controlled instrument departure and arrival;

(4) Upset recovery maneuvers; and

(5) Recovery from bounced landing.

(c) Extended envelope training must include instructor-guided hands on experience of recovery from full stall and stick pusher activation, if equipped.

Number 4 "Upset recovery maneuvers;" which could have been very useful to the MAX crews.

The GTI accident seems to have some real issues with Crew CRM just like the two MAX crashes. Plus it didn't actually stall - it seems to have been a disorientation in IMC which would have been covered by EET training as well Number 3 "Manually controlled instrument departure and arrival;"

The GTI pilot may or may not have done EET training yet.
Last edited by morrisond on Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
We move from "blame the pilots" to "blame the lack of pilots"?
:crazy:
[Sarcasm] Of course, as Boeing could never be blamed for any fault... :melting:
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
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JetBuddy
Posts: 2567
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:27 pm

Revelation wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Points to the Russians for durable core technology but we're till waiting for that German, Japanese or Russian self landing reusable rocket while we have two different US ones to chose from (SpaceX, Blue Origin).

Did you realize that the brand new Boeing CST-100 Starliner crew capsule failed today ?
https://youtu.be/Yq14pJnJgSI?t=86

How does a test flight failure negate what I wrote, we're still waiting for that German, Japanese or Russian self landing reusable rocket while we have two different US ones to chose from (SpaceX, Blue Origin).


The Blue Origin one is space tourism vehicle that barely reaches the Karman line, completely useless for any payload insertion or ISS docking. Still impressive though.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:32 pm

morrisond wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Implement FAA mandated EET (Extended Envelope Training)/Stall training worldwide. Bash on the FAA all you want but they seem to be the only ones advocating for that - which if implemented years ago could have saved a lot more lives than lost in the MAX disasters.

Have you even read that EET document ? https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/121.423#
It have nothing related to something like MCAS nor to something related to a runaway stabilizer.
And it have not prevented GTI3591 http://avherald.com/h?article=4c497c3c/0000&opt=0
Please debate this in an more appropriate thread.


Then don't comment on it. Francoflier was asking what was lacking in training - and you took a partial quote.

EET covers

121.423 Pilot: Extended Envelope Training.
(a) Each certificate holder must include in its approved training program, the extended envelope training set forth in this section with respect to each airplane type for each pilot. The extended envelope training required by this section must be performed in a Level C or higher full flight simulator, approved by the Administrator in accordance with § 121.407 of this part.

(b) Extended envelope training must include the following maneuvers and procedures:

(1) Manually controlled slow flight;

(2) Manually controlled loss of reliable airspeed;

(3) Manually controlled instrument departure and arrival;

(4) Upset recovery maneuvers; and

(5) Recovery from bounced landing.

(c) Extended envelope training must include instructor-guided hands on experience of recovery from full stall and stick pusher activation, if equipped.

Number 4 "Upset recovery maneuvers;" which could have been very useful to the MAX crews.

The GTI accident seems to have some real issues with Crew CRM just like the two MAX crashes. Plus t didn't actually stall - it seems to have been a disorientation in IMC which would have been covered by EET training as well Number 3 "Manually controlled instrument departure and arrival;"

The GTI pilot may or may not have done EET training yet.

I responded to you about the specific speculative claim that "[EET] could have saved a lot more lives than lost in the MAX disasters." My opinion is that this is false because it don't cover the automation repetitive discontinue nose down trim, nor runaway trim stabilizer. Both JT610 and ET302 was initially able to fight the MCAS, the problem was either to be unable to disable MCAS or to have all usable stab trim methods disabled. Nothing related to EET.

"Upset recovery maneuvers; which could have been very useful to the MAX crews." -> No 737-8/9 MAX crashed due to an upset (but the opposite), factually inaccurate.

So what you presented so much time as the lack of "basic skills" or lack of "airmanship" in the JT610 and ET302 cases is now acceptable in the GTI3591 case ?
Last edited by PixelFlight on Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
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flyingphil
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:33 pm

“United pulls 737 Max from its schedule until early June”

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/20/united- ... -june.html

United not expecting RTS until 4 June 2020.

So.. have Boeing been whispering in their ear more bad news? Considering all the timelines Boeing have put out have come and gone I have little faith that this deadline will be met.

What started as a simple software fix for MCAS is taking an awfully long time.

And what of the 737MAX10 ? Will it ever fly? Let alone enter service? Is it even competitive with the A321NEO?

Apart from the vague LOI from IAG no new orders for the 737MAX.. and can you blame airlines for avoiding the 737MAX.

Will watch developments with interest.
 
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Revelation
Posts: 24300
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:39 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
Revelation wrote:
We move from "blame the pilots" to "blame the lack of pilots"?
:crazy:
[Sarcasm] Of course, as Boeing could never be blamed for any fault... :melting:

Boeing has accepted fault/blame/whatever for MCAS 1.0, the CEO has issued apologies many many times now.

Starliner isn't a passenger airliner certified to FAA standards.

Certainly disappointing for Boeing that the test did not meet objectives, but it's far from the worst outcome.

Personally I think SpaceX and Blue Origin are making Boeing and LM look pretty bad these days.

JetBuddy wrote:
The Blue Origin one is space tourism vehicle that barely reaches the Karman line, completely useless for any payload insertion or ISS docking. Still impressive though.

New Shephard is such, the upcoming New Glenn will be able to do much more ( ref: https://www.theverge.com/2019/12/10/210 ... watch-live )
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
splitterz
Posts: 177
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:40 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:41 pm

United just announced that they extended MAX cancellations out of the schedule until June 4th.
 
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Revelation
Posts: 24300
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:43 pm

flyingphil wrote:
And what of the 737MAX10 ? Will it ever fly? Let alone enter service?

Any more off topic FUD to add to the thread?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
VS11
Posts: 1661
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:53 pm

flyingphil wrote:

United not expecting RTS until 4 June 2020.

So.. have Boeing been whispering in their ear more bad news? Considering all the timelines Boeing have put out have come and gone I have little faith that this deadline will be met.



There was a FT article referenced earlier about Patrick Ky - EASA CEO. There, he says that EASA expects EASA RTS by end of February 2020. He also says that FAA RTS and EASA RTS will have days or weeks gap between them.
 
Scarebus34
Posts: 525
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:58 pm

flyingphil wrote:
“United pulls 737 Max from its schedule until early June”

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/20/united- ... -june.html

United not expecting RTS until 4 June 2020.

So.. have Boeing been whispering in their ear more bad news? Considering all the timelines Boeing have put out have come and gone I have little faith that this deadline will be met.

What started as a simple software fix for MCAS is taking an awfully long time.

And what of the 737MAX10 ? Will it ever fly? Let alone enter service? Is it even competitive with the A321NEO?

Apart from the vague LOI from IAG no new orders for the 737MAX.. and can you blame airlines for avoiding the 737MAX.

Will watch developments with interest.


I think they are tired of pushing it back a month at a time - if they come back early, great! But they are trying to build some predictability into the schedule moving forward... United has a Max sim coming to their training center and as other airlines defer Max deliveries, United is scooping them up. They are all-in on the Max.
 
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PixelFlight
Posts: 1019
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:02 pm

Revelation wrote:
flyingphil wrote:
And what of the 737MAX10 ? Will it ever fly? Let alone enter service?

Any more off topic FUD to add to the thread?

This thread is "Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended", so the 737MAX10 is certainly more on topic than "Global training" or "USA spacecrafts"...
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:

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