Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Nick1209
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:24 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:04 am

767333ER wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
New article in the NYT, doesn't look rather bright at all. Software package not delivered yet?

And even more messages which will have much more bad news?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/22/busi ... module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

In his few public appearances, Mr. Muilenburg’s attempts to offer a sincere apology for the accidents have been clumsy, prolonging Boeing’s reputational pain. His performance has left lawmakers irate.

But Boeing still faces serious hurdles. The company has not delivered a complete software package to the F.A.A. for approval. 

“By the time April rolled around, Boeing was telling us next week, next month,” Gary Kelly, the chief executive of Southwest Airlines, said in an interview. “We were a week away, weeks away, three weeks away.”

The F.A.A. is aware of more potentially damaging messages from Boeing employees that the company has not turned over to the agency. 

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk


I highly recommend reading that article for everyone who's interested. It's like Boeing and regulators keep talking past each other.

One of the most damning parts is this:

"In August, regulators from Europe, Canada and Brazil flew to Seattle and joined F.A.A. officials for a meeting with Boeing. They were expecting to review reams of documentation describing the software update for the Max. Instead, the Boeing representatives offered a brief PowerPoint presentation, in line with what they had done in the past. The regulators left the meeting early."

And Boeing still hasn't delivered the software package to regulators for review. And we're soon at the end of the year.

Why is it that Boeing isn't done with their fix yet? Why is it they're not letting regulators fly the plane without MCAS? I'm starting to suspect that MCAS isn't only about keeping the stick force / feel linear. There's something else going on.

I just don’t get it at this point. If they started working on a fix supposedly after the JT crash over a year ago, how on earth is it not done yet if it’s as simple as they have claimed it is? What could they possibly be doing to the thing? I get that software fixes do take a long time to actually develop and also do take a long time to roll out, but this is over a year and the timeline is still up in the air.

My fear is that we in the general public may never find out what actually is going on. I feel this is far fetched, but I feel it as my fear.
Nick1209 wrote:
Fine. It was an overly strict requirement from the FAA that made MCAS come about. I’m 100% sure it could have flown without it, and would be flying today with 0 accidents.

If it hasn’t been tested under those conditions or it has and you don’t have access to the data, then you cannot say that and certainly not with 100% certainty. If it has been tested under those conditions, would the EASA need to test it again? The only thing 100% certain is that you’re judgment is illogical. Is the regulation overly strict, maybe, maybe not. I don’t pretend to know, but you do. You can’t say it’s too much if you don’t know how or why it got put there in the first place or don’t know what happens if they don’t have that regulation.

The MAX flying after the date of grounding is history that never existed (perhaps in an alternate timeline :scratchchin:); how do you know that, in that part of history that doesn’t exist, a 737 MAX doesn’t crash just by chance for a totally unrelated reason even maybe by no fault of its own. Well you don’t because that never existed in reality. You can’t make absolute certain statements about a reality that never existed unless you are and inter dimensional traveller. For that matter the MAX without MCAS hasn’t existed, but if it had, the timeline could also be very different. Even what a very influential person like a political leader has for breakfast could alter the course of the timeline depending on what they chose to eat (yeah, I watch too much Star Trek). We just can’t be 100% sure.


I pretend I know? Comical. What am I pretending to know? What certification test required MCAS? If so, I’m not pretending, it’s already been confirmed and most informed people know. Or is it the fact that I say the max wouldn’t have a problem flying? I’m 100% certain. That test was the only test that proved an aerodynamic nose up COULD happen with the new engine configuration. It wasn’t even enough to be a runaway pitch, but enough to not meet FAA longitudinal stability. It’s also good to note that it didn’t happen until an almost 90 degree bank. If any plane ends up at that angle, it’ll be the least of their worries.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1019
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:35 am

Nick1209 wrote:
Fine. It was an overly strict requirement from the FAA that made MCAS come about. I’m 100% sure it could have flown without it, and would be flying today with 0 accidents.

There is very heavy aircraft history tribute that explain why the longitudinal control is strictly regulated at it is today. The longitudinal control is the central key point in controlling an aircraft since the very beginning of aircraft, up to many recent accidents. The JT610 and ET302 accidents dramatically demonstrate what happens when the regulation is not strictly followed. BTW, all actual recommendations from experts (JATR, NTSB, JT610 FR) are toward more regulation to ensure strict compliance.

Aircraft safety is definitively not based on a single claim "I’m 100% sure it could have flown without it, and would be flying today with 0 accidents.". You have to prove that by a formal demonstration in a reviewed safety assessment. That said, if you can do it, you will probably be famous quickly.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
Noshow
Posts: 1615
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:59 am

If it flies without problems why not just demonstrate it?
 
oschkosch
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:50 am

Noshow wrote:
If it flies without problems why not just demonstrate it?
is it ok to then suggest that since Boeing seems to be shy to do so, that the max cannot fly without mcas?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2702
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:57 am

In summary:

"The fix" has not been presented in its entirety to the FAA, despite numerous claims to the opposite both here and elsewhere.
When preparing for an important meeting with international regulators, Boeing prepared .... a powerpoint presentation. Result: Regulators walked off
Presumably thinking it would be easier to just bully the FAA into submission, Boeing suggested the FAA could go it alone with certification. Result: The FAA told them to go to hell
Continued thinking they could bully the FAA, Boeing attempted to get permission to deliver un-certified aircraft to customers, going as fas as providing them with an expected delivery time. Result: FAA told them to go to hell and, by the way, we're yanking your certification approval

In so many words, Boeing has managed not only to sour the relationship with the FAA, they've virtually destroyed it. As they have with the other major regulators of this world.

777X will not be certified in 2020. 737 Max will not be certified in 2020. But Dennis will probably still get a huge bonus or an even larger golden parachute when the Board has finally had enough. Sadly there's nothing to indicate the Board will shed anybody who's even remotely connected to GE, or move away from being an MBA run business for the benefit of a few Wall Street investors and a large number of Boeing directors.
Signature. You just read one.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10337
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:22 pm

B777LRF wrote:
In summary:

"The fix" has not been presented in its entirety to the FAA, despite numerous claims to the opposite both here and elsewhere.
When preparing for an important meeting with international regulators, Boeing prepared .... a powerpoint presentation. Result: Regulators walked off
Presumably thinking it would be easier to just bully the FAA into submission, Boeing suggested the FAA could go it alone with certification. Result: The FAA told them to go to hell
Continued thinking they could bully the FAA, Boeing attempted to get permission to deliver un-certified aircraft to customers, going as fas as providing them with an expected delivery time. Result: FAA told them to go to hell and, by the way, we're yanking your certification approval

In so many words, Boeing has managed not only to sour the relationship with the FAA, they've virtually destroyed it. As they have with the other major regulators of this world.


Check your timelines, the bit flip fix was submitted in November outcome of the June MCAS test, there are reports that JTAR member's walk off was in August...
 
morrisond
Posts: 2731
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:10 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
Nick1209 wrote:
Fine. It was an overly strict requirement from the FAA that made MCAS come about. I’m 100% sure it could have flown without it, and would be flying today with 0 accidents.

There is very heavy aircraft history tribute that explain why the longitudinal control is strictly regulated at it is today. The longitudinal control is the central key point in controlling an aircraft since the very beginning of aircraft, up to many recent accidents. The JT610 and ET302 accidents dramatically demonstrate what happens when the regulation is not strictly followed. BTW, all actual recommendations from experts (JATR, NTSB, JT610 FR) are toward more regulation to ensure strict compliance.

Aircraft safety is definitively not based on a single claim "I’m 100% sure it could have flown without it, and would be flying today with 0 accidents.". You have to prove that by a formal demonstration in a reviewed safety assessment. That said, if you can do it, you will probably be famous quickly.


But they didn't crash because of failing to have controls that met the reg and crashing because Pilots pulled it into a stall as the controls got too light. They crashed because of botched automation trying to meet that reg.

The A321 is currently flying under an exception to that Reg. - It can't be that serious a safety issue or it would be grounded as well.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24364
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:55 pm

767333ER wrote:
I just don’t get it at this point. If they started working on a fix supposedly after the JT crash over a year ago, how on earth is it not done yet if it’s as simple as they have claimed it is?

JT crash was in April. MCAS portion of fix was said to be ready in June/July but bit flip issue was found and that set back the time line. Now there are so many different regulators applying so many different criteria one wonders if any fix can satisfy all of them. We have read reports that insiders are feeling that exact thing, it's now impossible to do a fix because it's impossible to know what so many different people want it to do and want for proof that it works. That is why on earth it is not done yet.

Noshow wrote:
If it flies without problems why not just demonstrate it?

You do understand that every 737 MAX now stored in Moses Lake and San Antonio were flown there, right?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
morrisond
Posts: 2731
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:04 pm

Boeing stock is halted Muilenberg may be out on his butt.
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1019
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:07 pm

morrisond wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
Nick1209 wrote:
Fine. It was an overly strict requirement from the FAA that made MCAS come about. I’m 100% sure it could have flown without it, and would be flying today with 0 accidents.

There is very heavy aircraft history tribute that explain why the longitudinal control is strictly regulated at it is today. The longitudinal control is the central key point in controlling an aircraft since the very beginning of aircraft, up to many recent accidents. The JT610 and ET302 accidents dramatically demonstrate what happens when the regulation is not strictly followed. BTW, all actual recommendations from experts (JATR, NTSB, JT610 FR) are toward more regulation to ensure strict compliance.

Aircraft safety is definitively not based on a single claim "I’m 100% sure it could have flown without it, and would be flying today with 0 accidents.". You have to prove that by a formal demonstration in a reviewed safety assessment. That said, if you can do it, you will probably be famous quickly.


They crashed because of botched automation trying to meet that reg.
Yes, "trying", we agree on that. Now the current ongoing plan is to comply.

morrisond wrote:
The A321 is currently flying under an exception to that Reg.
Only the A321neo is affected by a limitation of the aft CG ratio the time to fix a reduction in the flight envelop protection in very remote conditions that was identified in extensive Airbus simulation after an update requested by some operators. Absolutely nothing related to the 737-8/9 MAX grounding that already killed 346 peoples. You perfectly know all of this as we covered this together a few days ago.

There are a growing number of posts suggesting that a limitation could be enough to release the 737-8/9 MAX without MCAS, supported by the view of a member of the Canadian regulator. Without real and complete information about the flight characteristic without MCAS this scenario is very speculative because obviously Boeing would have pushed for it far earlier. Fact is that we don't know what kind of limitation would be required to make that scenario possible. But I would be surprised that Boeing did not know the implication since a very long time and that it concluded that it was not viable. Facts is that actually Boeing, FAA and EASA, all communicate about the MCAS update, not about removing it.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
oschkosch
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:08 pm

morrisond wrote:
Boeing stock is halted Muilenberg may be out on his butt.
wow!

https://seekingalpha.com/news/3528115-b ... ws-pending

Boeing halted, news pending

Dec. 23, 2019 9:02 AM ETThe Boeing Company(BA)By: Yoel Minkoff, SA News Editor5 Comments

Trading of Boeing's (BA) stock has been halted at $329.47 after inching up 0.5% in premarket action.



https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/23/boeing- ... risis.html

pending news, as the company battles fallout from 737 Max crisis



Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
morrisond
Posts: 2731
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:10 pm

Calhoun replaces Muilenberg

Boeing Announces Leadership Changes

David L. Calhoun Named President and CEO

Lawrence W. Kellner to Become Chairman of the Board

New Leadership to Bring Renewed Commitment to Transparency and Better Communication With Regulators and Customers in Safely Returning the 737 MAX to Service
Last edited by morrisond on Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
morrisond
Posts: 2731
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:12 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
There is very heavy aircraft history tribute that explain why the longitudinal control is strictly regulated at it is today. The longitudinal control is the central key point in controlling an aircraft since the very beginning of aircraft, up to many recent accidents. The JT610 and ET302 accidents dramatically demonstrate what happens when the regulation is not strictly followed. BTW, all actual recommendations from experts (JATR, NTSB, JT610 FR) are toward more regulation to ensure strict compliance.

Aircraft safety is definitively not based on a single claim "I’m 100% sure it could have flown without it, and would be flying today with 0 accidents.". You have to prove that by a formal demonstration in a reviewed safety assessment. That said, if you can do it, you will probably be famous quickly.


They crashed because of botched automation trying to meet that reg.
Yes, "trying", we agree on that. Now the current ongoing plan is to comply.

morrisond wrote:
The A321 is currently flying under an exception to that Reg.
Only the A321neo is affected by a limitation of the aft CG ratio the time to fix a reduction in the flight envelop protection in very remote conditions that was identified in extensive Airbus simulation after an update requested by some operators. Absolutely nothing related to the 737-8/9 MAX grounding that already killed 346 peoples. You perfectly know all of this as we covered this together a few days ago.

There are a growing number of posts suggesting that a limitation could be enough to release the 737-8/9 MAX without MCAS, supported by the view of a member of the Canadian regulator. Without real and complete information about the flight characteristic without MCAS this scenario is very speculative because obviously Boeing would have pushed for it far earlier. Fact is that we don't know what kind of limitation would be required to make that scenario possible. But I would be surprised that Boeing did not know the implication since a very long time and that it concluded that it was not viable. Facts is that actually Boeing, FAA and EASA, all communicate about the MCAS update, not about removing it.


Apparently MCAS was only needed in certain portions of the flight envelope (although what part who knows) it possibly could have been solved with a COG limitation as well on a temporary basis with MCAS removed.
 
oschkosch
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:13 pm

The Company also announced that Dennis A. Muilenburg has resigned from his positions as Chief Executive Officer and Board director effective immediately. Boeing Chief Financial Officer Greg Smithwill serve as interim CEO during the brief transition period, while Mr. Calhoun exits his non-Boeing commitments.
The Board of Directors decided that a change in leadership was necessary to restore confidence in the Company moving forward as it works to repair relationships with regulators, customers, and all other stakeholders.
Under the Company's new leadership, Boeing will operate with a renewed commitment to full transparency, including effective and proactive communication with the FAA, other global regulators and its customers.
"On behalf of the entire Board of Directors, I am pleased that Dave has agreed to lead Boeing at this critical juncture," Mr. Kellner said.  He added, "Dave has deep industry experience and a proven track record of strong leadership, and he recognizes the challenges we must confront. The Board and I look forward to working with him and the rest of the Boeing team to ensure that today marks a new way forward for our company."
Mr. Calhoun said, "I strongly believe in the future of Boeing and the 737 MAX. I am honored to lead this great company and the 150,000 dedicated employees who are working hard to create the future of aviation."


Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
Alfons
Posts: 310
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:17 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:19 pm

Revelation wrote:
767333ER wrote:
I just don’t get it at this point. If they started working on a fix supposedly after the JT crash over a year ago, how on earth is it not done yet if it’s as simple as they have claimed it is?

JT crash was in April. MCAS portion of fix was said to be ready in June/July but bit flip issue was found and that set back the time line. Now there are so many different regulators applying so many different criteria one wonders if any fix can satisfy all of them. We have read reports that insiders are feeling that exact thing, it's now impossible to do a fix because it's impossible to know what so many different people want it to do and want for proof that it works. That is why on earth it is not done yet.

Noshow wrote:
If it flies without problems why not just demonstrate it?

You do understand that every 737 MAX now stored in Moses Lake and San Antonio were flown there, right?


At 180 knots, 5000 feets and flaps out? What a nice demonstration... .
 
User avatar
JetBuddy
Posts: 2569
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:22 pm

Dave Calhoun takes the helm after Dennis Muilenburg.

Calhoun has a background in accounting and Chairman of General Electric, and board of directors of Boeing and Caterpillar.

Muilenburg held various engineering and management positions in Boeing before being replaced.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/23/boeing- ... risis.html
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1019
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:23 pm

morrisond wrote:
Apparently MCAS was only needed in certain portions of the flight envelope (although what part who knows) it possibly could have been solved with a COG limitation as well on a temporary basis with MCAS removed.

If it was so simple, the year long fiasco that grounded the 737-8/9 MAX, disturbed the FAA, halted his production, and push out the Boeing CEO today would not be a reality. Take the likelihood that it was the case for each of the events that occurred since a year and make the multiplication as per the Bayes’s theorem to find how insanely remote is that scenario today. The probability that the MCAS is here to stay is actually massive.
Last edited by PixelFlight on Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
User avatar
aerolimani
Posts: 1321
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:24 pm

morrisond wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
Nick1209 wrote:
Fine. It was an overly strict requirement from the FAA that made MCAS come about. I’m 100% sure it could have flown without it, and would be flying today with 0 accidents.

There is very heavy aircraft history tribute that explain why the longitudinal control is strictly regulated at it is today. The longitudinal control is the central key point in controlling an aircraft since the very beginning of aircraft, up to many recent accidents. The JT610 and ET302 accidents dramatically demonstrate what happens when the regulation is not strictly followed. BTW, all actual recommendations from experts (JATR, NTSB, JT610 FR) are toward more regulation to ensure strict compliance.

Aircraft safety is definitively not based on a single claim "I’m 100% sure it could have flown without it, and would be flying today with 0 accidents.". You have to prove that by a formal demonstration in a reviewed safety assessment. That said, if you can do it, you will probably be famous quickly.


But they didn't crash because of failing to have controls that met the reg and crashing because Pilots pulled it into a stall as the controls got too light. They crashed because of botched automation trying to meet that reg.

The A321 is currently flying under an exception to that Reg. - It can't be that serious a safety issue or it would be grounded as well.

The A321 is flying with restrictions, not with an exception. The restrictions prevent the problem from happening, and will remain in place until such time as the software update is ready to do the same job. Likewise, MCAS was supposed to prevent a problem as well, but we all know how well that went.

Your apples and oranges comparison is just that. You can't compare FBW versus non-FBW. Speaking of this comparison, there can be no "stick lightening" on an A320, as no "stick" exists, so the "same regulation" cannot apply.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2853
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:42 pm

Alfons wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Noshow wrote:
If it flies without problems why not just demonstrate it?

You do understand that every 737 MAX now stored in Moses Lake and San Antonio were flown there, right?


At 180 knots, 5000 feets and flaps out? What a nice demonstration... .

MCAS, in a sense, is emergency equipment - on par with inflatable slides. 737MAX will fly without MCAS or slides just fine like any other plane, would fly without slides - and one can say that regulators are harsh in both cases, as a competent pilot will not bring the plane to the condition where slides or MCAS are required. Once upon a time, though, something bad happens.
 
User avatar
flyingphil
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 2:56 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:00 pm

So.. DM fired.. no ‘thanks for your hard work, etc’ in the statement.

With the Christmas and New Year break coming up maybe its a good time to bury more bad news about the MAX?

This fiasco still has a long way to go.. maybe the new guy will be a better communicator.
 
bar11
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:47 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:04 pm

DM replaced by an accountant. Good luck Boeing...
 
User avatar
aerolimani
Posts: 1321
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:05 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Apparently MCAS was only needed in certain portions of the flight envelope (although what part who knows) it possibly could have been solved with a COG limitation as well on a temporary basis with MCAS removed.

If it was so simple, the year long fiasco that grounded the 737-8/9 MAX, disturbed the FAA, halted his production, and push out the Boeing CEO today would not be a reality. Take the likelihood that it was the case for each of the events that occurred since a year and make the multiplication as per the Bayes’s theorem to find how insanely remote is that scenario today. The probability that the MCAS is here to stay is actually massive.

In addition, we have a test pilot on record stating that stick lightening was occurring at mid-CG, so we know that the MAX’s problems are more severe than the A321. It’s very unlikely that CG limitations were ever going to be sufficient to allow the MAX to fly without MCAS.
 
airnorth
Posts: 457
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:30 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:16 pm

Alfons wrote:
Revelation wrote:
767333ER wrote:
I just don’t get it at this point. If they started working on a fix supposedly after the JT crash over a year ago, how on earth is it not done yet if it’s as simple as they have claimed it is?

JT crash was in April. MCAS portion of fix was said to be ready in June/July but bit flip issue was found and that set back the time line. Now there are so many different regulators applying so many different criteria one wonders if any fix can satisfy all of them. We have read reports that insiders are feeling that exact thing, it's now impossible to do a fix because it's impossible to know what so many different people want it to do and want for proof that it works. That is why on earth it is not done yet.

Noshow wrote:
If it flies without problems why not just demonstrate it?

You do understand that every 737 MAX now stored in Moses Lake and San Antonio were flown there, right?


At 180 knots, 5000 feets and flaps out? What a nice demonstration... .


Air Canada flew theirs to the desert within what I would call "normal" conditions.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... v#221ffb73
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-gehy

There are plenty of other examples
 
XRAYretired
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:21 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:41 pm

Revelation wrote:
767333ER wrote:
I just don’t get it at this point. If they started working on a fix supposedly after the JT crash over a year ago, how on earth is it not done yet if it’s as simple as they have claimed it is?

JT crash was in April. MCAS portion of fix was said to be ready in June/July but bit flip issue was found and that set back the time line. Now there are so many different regulators applying so many different criteria one wonders if any fix can satisfy all of them. We have read reports that insiders are feeling that exact thing, it's now impossible to do a fix because it's impossible to know what so many different people want it to do and want for proof that it works. That is why on earth it is not done yet.

Noshow wrote:
If it flies without problems why not just demonstrate it?

You do understand that every 737 MAX now stored in Moses Lake and San Antonio were flown there, right?

JT crash was end October 2018. Fix was original promised for Feb 2019, not achieved because of 'Catastrophic' failure mode identified in the flight control system. Subsequent version failed validation in June 2019 due to Catastrophic failure during bitflip. There is no evidence of other regulators setting different criteria that materially affect the need to fix MCAS. Competent manufacturer would have no problem answering the questions of regulators, no matter how many or varied, if the product was sound.

Boeing, by their own admission, can not demonstrate MAX meets the requirements without MCAS or some other fix.

Ray
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 4123
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:43 pm

morrisond wrote:
The A321 is currently flying under an exception to that Reg. - It can't be that serious a safety issue or it would be grounded as well.

What makes you believe the A321 is as bad (or worse) than the 737MAX sans MCAS?

I'm really curious as nobody - outside a very few within Boeing - seems to understand the natural aero characteristics of MAX sans MCAS . . .
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 4123
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:50 pm

morrisond wrote:
Calhoun replaces Muilenberg

Boeing Announces Leadership Changes

David L. Calhoun Named President and CEO

Lawrence W. Kellner to Become Chairman of the Board

New Leadership to Bring Renewed Commitment to Transparency and Better Communication With Regulators and Customers in Safely Returning the 737 MAX to Service


Pretty amazing fall-out from some folks in the pointy end not following basic procedures to just simply turn of pitch trim and keeping speed within checks. . .

//sarcasm
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
XRAYretired
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:21 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:58 pm

airnorth wrote:
Alfons wrote:
Revelation wrote:
JT crash was in April. MCAS portion of fix was said to be ready in June/July but bit flip issue was found and that set back the time line. Now there are so many different regulators applying so many different criteria one wonders if any fix can satisfy all of them. We have read reports that insiders are feeling that exact thing, it's now impossible to do a fix because it's impossible to know what so many different people want it to do and want for proof that it works. That is why on earth it is not done yet.


You do understand that every 737 MAX now stored in Moses Lake and San Antonio were flown there, right?


At 180 knots, 5000 feets and flaps out? What a nice demonstration... .


Air Canada flew theirs to the desert within what I would call "normal" conditions.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... v#221ffb73
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-gehy

There are plenty of other examples

Stupidity continued.

The MAX is not compliant with basic airworthiness requirements without augmentation or an other fix to the basic aerodynamics. MCAS as implemented version 1.0 introduced catastrophic failure modes that resulted in two fatal events. MCAS should not have been certified in the first place and certainly not allowed to continue in service after JT in October 2018. Any and all flights without AoA failed high cannot be used as some ridiculous demonstration that that conclusion is incorrect.

Fortunately, the regulators will not be influenced by such absurd propositions. Nor should anyone else.
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:10 pm

PW100 wrote:

Pretty amazing fall-out from some folks in the pointy end not following basic procedures to just simply turn of pitch trim and keeping speed within checks. . .

//sarcasm


I wonder if the new “sharpest tack in the draw,” will be any better than a rusty nail when it comes to the MAX. Boeing was doing what it wanted with minimal oversight from the FAA. FAA governmental swamp bureaucrats sure don’t want to acknowledge this so they are dug in to cover their butts with any resurrected MAX.

This whole fiasco has been a huge hit upon Boeing morale, it’s people, it’s finances, it’s shareholders, and it’s MAX customers.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4246
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:12 pm

https://gcaptain.com/flawed-bridge-tech ... WWfdK-v-DQ

There are a number of eerie parallels in the two USS Navy destroyer collisions and the MAX situation. These include some facts in each accident, blame games, technology going bad, inability to control the ship (at least one collision), responsible leadership at the highest levels escaping blame. It is instructive that as we rely more and more on automation that we know what is happening, how it is working, and a smooth takeover by humans as needed. Even no steering wheels/accelerator/brake pedals on autonomous cars must have a red button which safely and always stops the car on the side of the road.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1019
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:13 pm

airnorth wrote:
Air Canada flew theirs to the desert within what I would call "normal" conditions.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... v#221ffb73
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-gehy

There are plenty of other examples

So good, operators can fly the 737-8/9 MAX without any passengers. Great deal, problem solved for anyone ! :hypnotized:
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
User avatar
767333ER
Posts: 1170
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:14 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:13 pm

Revelation wrote:
JT crash was in April. MCAS portion of fix was said to be ready in June/July but bit flip issue was found and that set back the time line. Now there are so many different regulators applying so many different criteria one wonders if any fix can satisfy all of them. We have read reports that insiders are feeling that exact thing, it's now impossible to do a fix because it's impossible to know what so many different people want it to do and want for proof that it works. That is why on earth it is not done yet.

Nope, JT610 crashed on October 29, 2018 and as soon as MCAS’s effect was discovered work on a fix was announced. Blaming the regulators is a convenient go to cop out for Bowing apologists, I gather you are too smart to be a Boeing apologist... I hope. Regulators such as the EASA and the FAA have given criteria regarding what needs to be done for recertification. If this criteria changes it is because they have discovered something previously unknown and possibly hidden by Boeing. It’s Boeing’s onus to make and submit a fix to their problem; they seemingly haven’t submitted one yet. The regulators have nothing to do because they are waiting, so the ball is still in Boeing’s court.
Nick1209 wrote:
767333ER wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:

I highly recommend reading that article for everyone who's interested. It's like Boeing and regulators keep talking past each other.

One of the most damning parts is this:

"In August, regulators from Europe, Canada and Brazil flew to Seattle and joined F.A.A. officials for a meeting with Boeing. They were expecting to review reams of documentation describing the software update for the Max. Instead, the Boeing representatives offered a brief PowerPoint presentation, in line with what they had done in the past. The regulators left the meeting early."

And Boeing still hasn't delivered the software package to regulators for review. And we're soon at the end of the year.

Why is it that Boeing isn't done with their fix yet? Why is it they're not letting regulators fly the plane without MCAS? I'm starting to suspect that MCAS isn't only about keeping the stick force / feel linear. There's something else going on.

I just don’t get it at this point. If they started working on a fix supposedly after the JT crash over a year ago, how on earth is it not done yet if it’s as simple as they have claimed it is? What could they possibly be doing to the thing? I get that software fixes do take a long time to actually develop and also do take a long time to roll out, but this is over a year and the timeline is still up in the air.

My fear is that we in the general public may never find out what actually is going on. I feel this is far fetched, but I feel it as my fear.
Nick1209 wrote:
Fine. It was an overly strict requirement from the FAA that made MCAS come about. I’m 100% sure it could have flown without it, and would be flying today with 0 accidents.

If it hasn’t been tested under those conditions or it has and you don’t have access to the data, then you cannot say that and certainly not with 100% certainty. If it has been tested under those conditions, would the EASA need to test it again? The only thing 100% certain is that you’re judgment is illogical. Is the regulation overly strict, maybe, maybe not. I don’t pretend to know, but you do. You can’t say it’s too much if you don’t know how or why it got put there in the first place or don’t know what happens if they don’t have that regulation.

The MAX flying after the date of grounding is history that never existed (perhaps in an alternate timeline :scratchchin:); how do you know that, in that part of history that doesn’t exist, a 737 MAX doesn’t crash just by chance for a totally unrelated reason even maybe by no fault of its own. Well you don’t because that never existed in reality. You can’t make absolute certain statements about a reality that never existed unless you are and inter dimensional traveller. For that matter the MAX without MCAS hasn’t existed, but if it had, the timeline could also be very different. Even what a very influential person like a political leader has for breakfast could alter the course of the timeline depending on what they chose to eat (yeah, I watch too much Star Trek). We just can’t be 100% sure.


I pretend I know? Comical. What am I pretending to know? What certification test required MCAS? If so, I’m not pretending, it’s already been confirmed and most informed people know. Or is it the fact that I say the max wouldn’t have a problem flying? I’m 100% certain. That test was the only test that proved an aerodynamic nose up COULD happen with the new engine configuration. It wasn’t even enough to be a runaway pitch, but enough to not meet FAA longitudinal stability. It’s also good to note that it didn’t happen until an almost 90 degree bank. If any plane ends up at that angle, it’ll be the least of their worries.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are pretending to know the timeline of events had Boeing not been “forced by regulators” to put MCAS in (implying Boeing is not at fault), a timeline that does not exist. I beg of you again to explain to me what proof you are working off of that can make 100% certain statement.
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T PA-28-180

2 ears for spatial hearing, 2 eyes for depth perception, 2 ears for balance... How did Boeing think 1 sensor was good enough?!
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2231
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:21 pm

airnorth wrote:
Alfons wrote:
Revelation wrote:
You do understand that every 737 MAX now stored in Moses Lake and San Antonio were flown there, right?

At 180 knots, 5000 feets and flaps out? What a nice demonstration... .

Air Canada flew theirs to the desert within what I would call "normal" conditions.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... v#221ffb73
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-gehy

There are plenty of other examples

Do any of those examples include
a) a heavy fuel load
b) a heavy passenger load (or indeed any pax at all)
No? I thought not. And you knew it too.

My car drives like a Ferrari when it's just me on board.
The brakes are a bit tired & loose, but it usually stops in time.
But with a full load of pax, and their bags (e.g. for an airport run!), it drives like a ...brick.

Having said that, I would agree that the MAX probably flies ok without MCAS, 99 out of 100 times. Possibly even 999 out of 1,000
In fact the stats prove it was ok the first 135,979 times out of 135,980 cycles.

And then it wasn't ok any more.

Arguing over a handful of flights to Moses Lake leaves me thinking of Shania Twain; "That don't impress me much" :lol:

Edit; I see PixelFlight beat me to it, with far fewer words. My bad. :D
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
LDRA
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:01 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:22 pm

aerolimani wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Apparently MCAS was only needed in certain portions of the flight envelope (although what part who knows) it possibly could have been solved with a COG limitation as well on a temporary basis with MCAS removed.

If it was so simple, the year long fiasco that grounded the 737-8/9 MAX, disturbed the FAA, halted his production, and push out the Boeing CEO today would not be a reality. Take the likelihood that it was the case for each of the events that occurred since a year and make the multiplication as per the Bayes’s theorem to find how insanely remote is that scenario today. The probability that the MCAS is here to stay is actually massive.

In addition, we have a test pilot on record stating that stick lightening was occurring at mid-CG, so we know that the MAX’s problems are more severe than the A321. It’s very unlikely that CG limitations were ever going to be sufficient to allow the MAX to fly without MCAS.


Interesting! Do you know where it is reported by any chance
 
ACATROYAL
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:25 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:29 pm

The awesome Max claims another victim...Boeing's CEO is reported Fired...anyone surprised that it took this long for it to happen
 
User avatar
aerolimani
Posts: 1321
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:38 pm

LDRA wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
If it was so simple, the year long fiasco that grounded the 737-8/9 MAX, disturbed the FAA, halted his production, and push out the Boeing CEO today would not be a reality. Take the likelihood that it was the case for each of the events that occurred since a year and make the multiplication as per the Bayes’s theorem to find how insanely remote is that scenario today. The probability that the MCAS is here to stay is actually massive.

In addition, we have a test pilot on record stating that stick lightening was occurring at mid-CG, so we know that the MAX’s problems are more severe than the A321. It’s very unlikely that CG limitations were ever going to be sufficient to allow the MAX to fly without MCAS.


Interesting! Do you know where it is reported by any chance

It's here, but you'll need to register to read it: https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/ ... lator-demo

The pilot downplays the severity of the MAX's aerodynamic problems, but at the same time, the pilot clearly states that the test was done at midrange CG, and that he felt stick lightening.

BTW, in this article, the journalist remarks that MCAS is only needed at high weight and full-aft CG, but the pilot he quotes contradicts that statement. I prefer to take the word of the directly quoted pilot over that of the journalist. Also, I've never read that statement anywhere else other than this article.
 
sgrow787
Posts: 450
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:39 pm

morrisond wrote:
Calhoun replaces Muilenberg

Boeing Announces Leadership Changes

David L. Calhoun Named President and CEO

Lawrence W. Kellner to Become Chairman of the Board

New Leadership to Bring Renewed Commitment to Transparency and Better Communication With Regulators and Customers in Safely Returning the 737 MAX to Service


On the surface, this seems logical. But nothing is as it appears on the surface. Was Muilenberg forced out because he wouldn't go along with the Chicago bean counters any longer? One has to at least consider this, since he's got an engineering background, and would have a better understanding of the longer term impact of design changes (and corner cutting). Will the ex-CEO now tell all in the next congressional hearing, or perhaps a new book? Perhaps the DOJ investigation has narrowed down to a few and Boeing is severing ties before an indictment is made?
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
airnorth
Posts: 457
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:30 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:45 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
airnorth wrote:
Alfons wrote:
At 180 knots, 5000 feets and flaps out? What a nice demonstration... .

Air Canada flew theirs to the desert within what I would call "normal" conditions.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... v#221ffb73
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-gehy

There are plenty of other examples

Do any of those examples include
a) a heavy fuel load
b) a heavy passenger load (or indeed any pax at all)
No? I thought not. And you knew it too.

My car drives like a Ferrari when it's just me on board.
The brakes are a bit tired & loose, but it usually stops in time.
But with a full load of pax, and their bags (e.g. for an airport run!), it drives like a ...brick.

Having said that, I would agree that the MAX probably flies ok without MCAS, 99 out of 100 times. Possibly even 999 out of 1,000
In fact the stats prove it was ok the first 135,979 times out of 135,980 cycles.

And then it wasn't ok any more.

Arguing over a handful of flights to Moses Lake leaves me thinking of Shania Twain; "That don't impress me much" :lol:

Edit; I see PixelFlight beat me to it, with far fewer words. My bad. :D


Did I miss a post? I was responding to the poster that said the planes had to fly at 180k and flaps deployed. I clearly showed this was not the case.
What sort of payload information do you have to dispute the data presented in my post?
Pleas follow the forum rules and when you read responses that you wish to reply to, compose your response to the comment made so it is in context.
 
birdbrainz
Posts: 511
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 6:57 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:01 pm

Alfons wrote:
Noshow wrote:
If it flies without problems why not just demonstrate it?
You do understand that every 737 MAX now stored in Moses Lake and San Antonio were flown there, right?


At 180 knots, 5000 feets and flaps out? What a nice demonstration... .


Complete BS. Have a look: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE3
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
beechnut
Posts: 927
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:13 pm

airnorth wrote:
Did I miss a post? I was responding to the poster that said the planes had to fly at 180k and flaps deployed. I clearly showed this was not the case.


I do seem to recall reading somewhere that this was required for repositioning flights in the EU. With so much information and mis-information flying in all directions, it's quite understandable that some of us can lose track of what happened (or didn't happen) where.

Edit I dug up an article that said the Icelandair flew their MAXs to Europe for storage, "flying low and slow with flaps out". Not sure where else this restriction applied, but clearly the factoid was not pulled out of thin air.

https://simpleflying.com/icelandair-fer ... -to-spain/

Beech
 
airnorth
Posts: 457
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:30 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:14 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
airnorth wrote:
Alfons wrote:

At 180 knots, 5000 feets and flaps out? What a nice demonstration... .


Air Canada flew theirs to the desert within what I would call "normal" conditions.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... v#221ffb73
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-gehy

There are plenty of other examples

Stupidity continued.

The MAX is not compliant with basic airworthiness requirements without augmentation or an other fix to the basic aerodynamics. MCAS as implemented version 1.0 introduced catastrophic failure modes that resulted in two fatal events. MCAS should not have been certified in the first place and certainly not allowed to continue in service after JT in October 2018. Any and all flights without AoA failed high cannot be used as some ridiculous demonstration that that conclusion is incorrect.

Fortunately, the regulators will not be influenced by such absurd propositions. Nor should anyone else.


What is the "stupidity continued" in my post that you quoted?
 
airnorth
Posts: 457
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:30 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:18 pm

beechnut wrote:
airnorth wrote:
Did I miss a post? I was responding to the poster that said the planes had to fly at 180k and flaps deployed. I clearly showed this was not the case.


I do seem to recall reading somewhere that this was required for repositioning flights in the EU. With so much information and mis-information flying in all directions, it's quite understandable that some of us can lose track of what happened (or didn't happen) where.

Edit I dug up an article that said the Icelandair flew their MAXs to Europe for storage, "flying low and slow with flaps out". Not sure where else this restriction applied, but clearly the factoid was not pulled out of thin air.

https://simpleflying.com/icelandair-fer ... -to-spain/

Beech

It may be a fact in certain situations due to restrictions put in place by regulators. But the fact also remains that 737 MAX flights still continue in what look like normal flight profiles at cruising altitude and speed. I thought that this should be pointed out for context to the discussion, as those restrictions clearly do not apply everywhere.
 
User avatar
AirlineCritic
Posts: 1765
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:07 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:26 pm

I was kinda expecting the CEO change to happen much sooner. Half a year earlier would have made potentially a big difference. Or even right after the stumbling and cold-appearing statements right after the ET crash. And while Mullenberg is another victim to the crashes now, at least he has more parachutes for protection than the other victims...

Also, Calhoun's background is in accounting? I was hoping to see a bolder engineer type that would be able to say "here is the <actual situation>", "we screwed up <here>" and "the solution is <this> and it is going to work because <reasons>".
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4297
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:10 pm

Boeing really needs an Oscar Munoz to come in. Doesn't really matter if he has experience in the industry. They need someone to come in and put a stop to the PR hemorrhage nightmare. Someone to come in and say "The past is the past - our process is broken and that broken process failed our customers and their passengers. We will fix this." And then shut up and get to work. No one wants to hear Boeing's defense on why they are only partly to blame. In the court of public opinion they are 100% at fault.
 
Alfons
Posts: 310
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:17 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:33 pm

airnorth wrote:
Alfons wrote:
Revelation wrote:
JT crash was in April. MCAS portion of fix was said to be ready in June/July but bit flip issue was found and that set back the time line. Now there are so many different regulators applying so many different criteria one wonders if any fix can satisfy all of them. We have read reports that insiders are feeling that exact thing, it's now impossible to do a fix because it's impossible to know what so many different people want it to do and want for proof that it works. That is why on earth it is not done yet.


You do understand that every 737 MAX now stored in Moses Lake and San Antonio were flown there, right?


At 180 knots, 5000 feets and flaps out? What a nice demonstration... .


Air Canada flew theirs to the desert within what I would call "normal" conditions.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... v#221ffb73
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-gehy

There are plenty of other examples


your own examples have me following output: "Sorry, but we could not find data for specified flight".
 
Lootess
Posts: 454
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:40 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Boeing really needs an Oscar Munoz to come in. Doesn't really matter if he has experience in the industry. They need someone to come in and put a stop to the PR hemorrhage nightmare. Someone to come in and say "The past is the past - our process is broken and that broken process failed our customers and their passengers. We will fix this." And then shut up and get to work. No one wants to hear Boeing's defense on why they are only partly to blame. In the court of public opinion they are 100% at fault.


They got Larry Kellner, former Continental CEO in the chairman seat now.
 
kayik
Posts: 116
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:52 pm

Lootess wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
Boeing really needs an Oscar Munoz to come in. Doesn't really matter if he has experience in the industry. They need someone to come in and put a stop to the PR hemorrhage nightmare. Someone to come in and say "The past is the past - our process is broken and that broken process failed our customers and their passengers. We will fix this." And then shut up and get to work. No one wants to hear Boeing's defense on why they are only partly to blame. In the court of public opinion they are 100% at fault.


They got Larry Kellner, former Continental CEO in the chairman seat now.

Prior to his arrival at Continental, he served as the chief financial officer of American Savings Bank.
 
airnorth
Posts: 457
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:30 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:16 pm

Alfons wrote:
airnorth wrote:
Alfons wrote:

At 180 knots, 5000 feets and flaps out? What a nice demonstration... .


Air Canada flew theirs to the desert within what I would call "normal" conditions.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... v#221ffb73
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-gehy

There are plenty of other examples


your own examples have me following output: "Sorry, but we could not find data for specified flight".


Not sure why these links do not work:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... v#221ffb73
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... y#221fde12
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... y#224cd53f
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... x#22a7893d

Those links should all work, if not, just search the callsign flight history of C-FTJV, C-GEHY, C-FSCY, and a Westjet plane for good measure C-FRAX in your favorite flight tracker website, you will see all of those flights cruised at speeds of 380 -530 kt, and fl 380 -400. No restrictions on speed, and obviously not cruising with flaps deployed, at those speeds or altitudes. There may have been some flights in other jurisdictions where the MAX could only fly at certain speeds and altitudes, but that is clearly not the case in USA or Canada. I'm sure there were definite parameters around these flights, plus all of the other ferry flights, but they are not restricted to 180kt, and flaps deployed as another poster has suggested.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 706
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:23 pm

airnorth wrote:
Alfons wrote:
airnorth wrote:

Air Canada flew theirs to the desert within what I would call "normal" conditions.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... v#221ffb73
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-gehy

There are plenty of other examples


your own examples have me following output: "Sorry, but we could not find data for specified flight".


Not sure why these links do not work:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... v#221ffb73
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... y#221fde12
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... y#224cd53f
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... x#22a7893d

Those links should all work, if not, just search the callsign flight history of C-FTJV, C-GEHY, C-FSCY, and a Westjet plane for good measure C-FRAX in your favorite flight tracker website, you will see all of those flights cruised at speeds of 380 -530 kt, and fl 380 -400. No restrictions on speed, and obviously not cruising with flaps deployed, at those speeds or altitudes. There may have been some flights in other jurisdictions where the MAX could only fly at certain speeds and altitudes, but that is clearly not the case in USA or Canada. I'm sure there were definite parameters around these flights, plus all of the other ferry flights, but they are not restricted to 180kt, and flaps deployed as another poster has suggested.


You can fly any MAX with special insurance cert, special approval from the governing body in which airspace you fly and most importantly no PAX on board. That is a problem if you want to use this aircraft as a commercial aircraft. But right now if the airforce needs targets they are good to go. Unfortunately this kind of aircraft go around 1mio and that is not good for boeing
 
hivue
Posts: 2078
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:43 pm

767333ER wrote:
I just don’t get it at this point. If they started working on a fix supposedly after the JT crash over a year ago, how on earth is it not done yet if it’s as simple as they have claimed it is?


Because ET happened hot on the heels of JT. This is the big curve ball the universe threw Boeing. If ET's AoA vane had not gotten knocked out Boeing would have had the fix done by now, the FAA and other regulators would have approved it, many people now dead would be alive, Muilenburg would still have a job, and we'd all have nothing to talk about in these threads.
Last edited by hivue on Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
User avatar
flyingphil
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 2:56 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019, Production suspended

Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:58 pm

“More ‘troubling’ internal Boeing documents on 737 MAX set for release”
Reported by Dominic Gates of the Seattle Times. He seems to have good sourcrs.

So, maybe linked to DM’s sudden departure?

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos