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User avatar
keesje
Posts: 13178
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:33 pm

flyingphil wrote:
A simple question..

If both sets of pilots had been flying the 737NG would 346 people be alive today?


So.. according to the Seattle Times the 737MAX Cockpit did not meet current Federal Regulations.. I think that is a big deal..

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... ew-alerts/


Yes. I see this artcle was re posted twice over the last 2 days and ignored, overwritten, drowned in various related topics under the generalized "Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019" header.

Image
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-pushed-faa-to-arelax-737-max-certification-requirements-for-crew-alerts/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=article_inset_1.1

If it is only half truth, a can of worms was just openend & many are in denial / be quiet hopefully it goes away mode. Including me.. luckely it's the last post of the page, many will miss it again..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
AABusDrvr
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:48 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:36 pm

PW100 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
PW100 wrote:

But why would N1 stay at 94% if autothrottle is engaged? Wouldn't some level of modulation be expected from autothrottle?


Not if the Autopilot isn't engaged and hence why the MCAS checklist tells you to disengage AT as MCAS can't act if AP is engaged.


OK. Thanks, got it.

The 737 A/T apparenlty works in close coopereation with AP. It appears actually to be against Boeing recommendations to use A/T in isolation without autopilot, as that could create pitch coupling (pitch/speed instability):
http://www.flaps2approach.com/journal/2014/9/2/b737-autothrottle-at-normal-and-non-normal-operations.html


Many operators don't strictly follow that guidance. We actually spend quite a bit of time flying with the autopilot off, and the auto throttles on.


morrisond wrote:
That's a good article. It explains a lot and probably explains a lot of the landing incidents with 737's if Autothrottle is used in gusty conditions.


Thats also operator specific. Where I am, we actually fly a slower approach speed with the auto throttles engaged to touchdown, than we do with them turned off.

With the A/T's on, no matter the wind, we fly ref+5 knots. If we turn them off, we need to add 1/2 the steady state wind value, plus half the gust factor, up to 15 knots total. So with the throttles off, we could be 10 knight faster across the fence, than with them on.
 
AABusDrvr
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:48 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:41 pm

sgrow787 wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
If EICAS was already developed for the P-8 (737-800) - although not FAA certified - it means implementing the original MCAS from the 767 tankers would likely have been much easier and straight forward. The $10 billion figure sounds incredibly high, even when training is included. The R&D was basically done already.


Can someone post a photo of a AOA disagree light on 737 NG cockpit? Was it standalone hardware, or was it from the FCC? Was the AOA retrofit for Southwest post Lion Air a standalone or from FCC (assuming the retrofit happened prior to the grounding, and not after, in which case no one would be able to confirm).

I'm asking because the evidence so far is pointing to dual AOA redundancy within the FCC is looking difficult to impossible, both because of the certification events pre-crashes, and the length of time they are taking to get a redundancy solution submitted. In fact, I'm thinking the AOA indicator option explanation was just cover to buy Boeing more time (they knew about the issue in 2017, could have notified Southwest and sold them the indicator option to get their AOA disagree light working, but they chose not to tell anyone).

I've looked on youtube at 737 NG cockpit videos and don't see anything.

EDIT: No, we don't know that AOA+AOA on 737 Max was doable. No, the 767 had better hardware, so the R&D does not transfer to the Max.



It's just a comparator warning on the PFD.

Image
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 649
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:45 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
From the ET302 Prelimiary Report FACTUAL INFORMATION:


I don't even know what you're talking out now. If you have a problem believing my previous post, I recommend looking at the FDR traces first-hand, not second-hand. The timeline is clear, and my post took the information directly from them.

https://leehamnews.com/2019/04/05/bjorn ... -analysis/

And mine directly from the official ET302 preliminary report http://www.ecaa.gov.et/Home/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Preliminary-Report-B737-800MAX-ET-AVJ.pdf
Only this one is the very first hand report. It say:

"From 05:40:42 to 05:43:11 [...] The left indicated airspeed increased from approximately 305 kt to approximately 340 kt (VMO)."
"At 05:43:11, about 32 seconds before the end of the recording, [...]"

So it's absolutely factual that ET302 did not excess approximately Vmo until the last 32 seconds of the flight. Since Vmo is a SAFETY MARGIN, the manual trim wheels must be effective even at the margin greater than Vmo. But that was not the case on the 737-8/9 MAX.

Just to be crystal clear: https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/transport-canada/corporate/acts-regulations/regulations/sor-96-433/part5-standards-525-sub-g-1743.htm

"525.1505 Maximum Operating Limit Speed
The maximum operating limit speed (VMO/MMO airspeed or Mach number, whichever is critical at a particular altitude) is a speed that may not be deliberately exceeded in any regime of flight (climb, cruise, or descent), unless a higher speed is authorised for flight test or pilot training operations. VMO/MMO must be established so that it is not greater than the design cruising speed VC and so that it is sufficiently below VD/MD or VDF/MDF, to make it highly improbable that the latter speeds will be inadvertently exceeded in operations. The speed margin between VMO/MMO and VD/MD or VDF/MDF may not be less than that determined under 525.335(b) or found necessary during the flight tests conducted under 525.253."

Consequently, there no way to blame the ET302 pilots for the small Vmo overspeed when the situation was already absolutely dramatic: this is not that detail that caused the crash. The fact that the manual trim wheels was too hard to use well before Vmo is a far bigger contributor to the crash and a non conformity to the safety certification.
 
kayik
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:58 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:47 pm

not missed


keesje wrote:
Yes. I see this artcle was re posted twice over the last 2 days and ignored, overwritten, drowned in various related topics under the generalized "Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019" header.

Image
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-pushed-faa-to-arelax-737-max-certification-requirements-for-crew-alerts/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=article_inset_1.1

If it is only half truth, a can of worms was just openend & many are in denial / be quiet hopefully it goes away mode. Including me.. luckely it's the last post of the page, many will miss it again..
 
AABusDrvr
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:48 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:56 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
From the ET302 Prelimiary Report FACTUAL INFORMATION:


I don't even know what you're talking out now. If you have a problem believing my previous post, I recommend looking at the FDR traces first-hand, not second-hand. The timeline is clear, and my post took the information directly from them.

https://leehamnews.com/2019/04/05/bjorn ... -analysis/

And mine directly from the official ET302 preliminary report http://www.ecaa.gov.et/Home/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Preliminary-Report-B737-800MAX-ET-AVJ.pdf
Only this one is the very first hand report. It say:

"From 05:40:42 to 05:43:11 [...] The left indicated airspeed increased from approximately 305 kt to approximately 340 kt (VMO)."
"At 05:43:11, about 32 seconds before the end of the recording, [...]"

So it's absolutely factual that ET302 did not excess approximately Vmo until the last 32 seconds of the flight. Since Vmo is a SAFETY MARGIN, the manual trim wheels must be effective even at the margin greater than Vmo. But that was not the case on the 737-8/9 MAX.

Just to be crystal clear: https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/transport-canada/corporate/acts-regulations/regulations/sor-96-433/part5-standards-525-sub-g-1743.htm

"525.1505 Maximum Operating Limit Speed
The maximum operating limit speed (VMO/MMO airspeed or Mach number, whichever is critical at a particular altitude) is a speed that may not be deliberately exceeded in any regime of flight (climb, cruise, or descent), unless a higher speed is authorised for flight test or pilot training operations. VMO/MMO must be established so that it is not greater than the design cruising speed VC and so that it is sufficiently below VD/MD or VDF/MDF, to make it highly improbable that the latter speeds will be inadvertently exceeded in operations. The speed margin between VMO/MMO and VD/MD or VDF/MDF may not be less than that determined under 525.335(b) or found necessary during the flight tests conducted under 525.253."

Consequently, there no way to blame the ET302 pilots for the small Vmo overspeed when the situation was already absolutely dramatic: this is not that detail that caused the crash. The fact that the manual trim wheels was too hard to use well before Vmo is a far bigger contributor to the crash and a non conformity to the safety certification.



Except for this, from the ET302 preliminary report also:

Also, the airspeed, altitude and flight director pitch bar values from the left side noted deviating from the corresponding right side values. The left side values were lower than the right side values until near the end of the recording

And

From 05:40:42 to 05:43:11 (about two and a half minutes), the stabilizer position gradually moved in the AND direction from 2.3 units to 2.1 units. During this time, aft force was applied to the control columns which remained aft of neutral position. The left indicated airspeed increased from approximately 305 kt to approximately 340 kt (VMO). The right indicated airspeed was approximately 20-25 kt higher than the left.

The right side was operating normally, so if the left side indicated 340KTS, they were actually doing 360-365. Thats well over the 340KT VMO.
 
User avatar
aerolimani
Posts: 1208
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:56 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
From the ET302 Prelimiary Report FACTUAL INFORMATION:


I don't even know what you're talking out now. If you have a problem believing my previous post, I recommend looking at the FDR traces first-hand, not second-hand. The timeline is clear, and my post took the information directly from them.

https://leehamnews.com/2019/04/05/bjorn ... -analysis/

And mine directly from the official ET302 preliminary report http://www.ecaa.gov.et/Home/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Preliminary-Report-B737-800MAX-ET-AVJ.pdf
Only this one is the very first hand report. It say:

"From 05:40:42 to 05:43:11 [...] The left indicated airspeed increased from approximately 305 kt to approximately 340 kt (VMO)."
"At 05:43:11, about 32 seconds before the end of the recording, [...]"

So it's absolutely factual that ET302 did not excess approximately Vmo until the last 32 seconds of the flight. Since Vmo is a SAFETY MARGIN, the manual trim wheels must be effective even at the margin greater than Vmo. But that was not the case on the 737-8/9 MAX.

Just to be crystal clear: https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/transport-canada/corporate/acts-regulations/regulations/sor-96-433/part5-standards-525-sub-g-1743.htm

"525.1505 Maximum Operating Limit Speed
The maximum operating limit speed (VMO/MMO airspeed or Mach number, whichever is critical at a particular altitude) is a speed that may not be deliberately exceeded in any regime of flight (climb, cruise, or descent), unless a higher speed is authorised for flight test or pilot training operations. VMO/MMO must be established so that it is not greater than the design cruising speed VC and so that it is sufficiently below VD/MD or VDF/MDF, to make it highly improbable that the latter speeds will be inadvertently exceeded in operations. The speed margin between VMO/MMO and VD/MD or VDF/MDF may not be less than that determined under 525.335(b) or found necessary during the flight tests conducted under 525.253."

Consequently, there no way to blame the ET302 pilots for the small Vmo overspeed when the situation was already absolutely dramatic: this is not that detail that caused the crash. The fact that the manual trim wheels was too hard to use well before Vmo is a far bigger contributor to the crash and a non conformity to the safety certification.


Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Need I say more?
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 649
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:57 pm

kayik wrote:
not missed


keesje wrote:
Yes. I see this artcle was re posted twice over the last 2 days and ignored, overwritten, drowned in various related topics under the generalized "Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019" header.

Image
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-pushed-faa-to-arelax-737-max-certification-requirements-for-crew-alerts/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=article_inset_1.1

If it is only half truth, a can of worms was just openend & many are in denial / be quiet hopefully it goes away mode. Including me.. luckely it's the last post of the page, many will miss it again..

Not great for the PAX seeking safest flights on that aircraft, at least at this state of improvement...
Next time a 737-8/9 MAX will experience an incident involving the alert system, all the medias will immediately remember this and make there big titles with it.
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 649
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:03 pm

AABusDrvr wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:

I don't even know what you're talking out now. If you have a problem believing my previous post, I recommend looking at the FDR traces first-hand, not second-hand. The timeline is clear, and my post took the information directly from them.

https://leehamnews.com/2019/04/05/bjorn ... -analysis/

And mine directly from the official ET302 preliminary report http://www.ecaa.gov.et/Home/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Preliminary-Report-B737-800MAX-ET-AVJ.pdf
Only this one is the very first hand report. It say:

"From 05:40:42 to 05:43:11 [...] The left indicated airspeed increased from approximately 305 kt to approximately 340 kt (VMO)."
"At 05:43:11, about 32 seconds before the end of the recording, [...]"

So it's absolutely factual that ET302 did not excess approximately Vmo until the last 32 seconds of the flight. Since Vmo is a SAFETY MARGIN, the manual trim wheels must be effective even at the margin greater than Vmo. But that was not the case on the 737-8/9 MAX.

Just to be crystal clear: https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/transport-canada/corporate/acts-regulations/regulations/sor-96-433/part5-standards-525-sub-g-1743.htm

"525.1505 Maximum Operating Limit Speed
The maximum operating limit speed (VMO/MMO airspeed or Mach number, whichever is critical at a particular altitude) is a speed that may not be deliberately exceeded in any regime of flight (climb, cruise, or descent), unless a higher speed is authorised for flight test or pilot training operations. VMO/MMO must be established so that it is not greater than the design cruising speed VC and so that it is sufficiently below VD/MD or VDF/MDF, to make it highly improbable that the latter speeds will be inadvertently exceeded in operations. The speed margin between VMO/MMO and VD/MD or VDF/MDF may not be less than that determined under 525.335(b) or found necessary during the flight tests conducted under 525.253."

Consequently, there no way to blame the ET302 pilots for the small Vmo overspeed when the situation was already absolutely dramatic: this is not that detail that caused the crash. The fact that the manual trim wheels was too hard to use well before Vmo is a far bigger contributor to the crash and a non conformity to the safety certification.



Except for this, from the ET302 preliminary report also:

Also, the airspeed, altitude and flight director pitch bar values from the left side noted deviating from the corresponding right side values. The left side values were lower than the right side values until near the end of the recording

And

From 05:40:42 to 05:43:11 (about two and a half minutes), the stabilizer position gradually moved in the AND direction from 2.3 units to 2.1 units. During this time, aft force was applied to the control columns which remained aft of neutral position. The left indicated airspeed increased from approximately 305 kt to approximately 340 kt (VMO). The right indicated airspeed was approximately 20-25 kt higher than the left.

The right side was operating normally, so if the left side indicated 340KTS, they were actually doing 360-365. Thats well over the 340KT VMO.

340 kt is a SAFETY MARGIN, did you read ? Even 25 kt over 340 kt is only 7.35% over Vmo.
 
MrBretz
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:13 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:18 am

RTS Q4 2020?
 
sgrow787
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:23 am

AABusDrvr wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
If EICAS was already developed for the P-8 (737-800) - although not FAA certified - it means implementing the original MCAS from the 767 tankers would likely have been much easier and straight forward. The $10 billion figure sounds incredibly high, even when training is included. The R&D was basically done already.


Can someone post a photo of a AOA disagree light on 737 NG cockpit? Was it standalone hardware, or was it from the FCC? Was the AOA retrofit for Southwest post Lion Air a standalone or from FCC (assuming the retrofit happened prior to the grounding, and not after, in which case no one would be able to confirm).

I'm asking because the evidence so far is pointing to dual AOA redundancy within the FCC is looking difficult to impossible, both because of the certification events pre-crashes, and the length of time they are taking to get a redundancy solution submitted. In fact, I'm thinking the AOA indicator option explanation was just cover to buy Boeing more time (they knew about the issue in 2017, could have notified Southwest and sold them the indicator option to get their AOA disagree light working, but they chose not to tell anyone).

I've looked on youtube at 737 NG cockpit videos and don't see anything.

EDIT: No, we don't know that AOA+AOA on 737 Max was doable. No, the 767 had better hardware, so the R&D does not transfer to the Max.



It's just a comparator warning on the PFD.

Image


I was hoping for a photo of an actual cockpit, not from a manual. Also, you didn't state which plane it's from.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
AABusDrvr
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:48 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:27 am

sgrow787 wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:

Can someone post a photo of a AOA disagree light on 737 NG cockpit? Was it standalone hardware, or was it from the FCC? Was the AOA retrofit for Southwest post Lion Air a standalone or from FCC (assuming the retrofit happened prior to the grounding, and not after, in which case no one would be able to confirm).

I'm asking because the evidence so far is pointing to dual AOA redundancy within the FCC is looking difficult to impossible, both because of the certification events pre-crashes, and the length of time they are taking to get a redundancy solution submitted. In fact, I'm thinking the AOA indicator option explanation was just cover to buy Boeing more time (they knew about the issue in 2017, could have notified Southwest and sold them the indicator option to get their AOA disagree light working, but they chose not to tell anyone).

I've looked on youtube at 737 NG cockpit videos and don't see anything.

EDIT: No, we don't know that AOA+AOA on 737 Max was doable. No, the 767 had better hardware, so the R&D does not transfer to the Max.



It's just a comparator warning on the PFD.

Image


I was hoping for a photo of an actual cockpit, not from a manual. Also, you didn't state which plane it's from.


That picture is a MAX, the NG is a similar message, but I’m not sure exactly where on the tube it displays.
 
sgrow787
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:04 am

AABusDrvr wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:


It's just a comparator warning on the PFD.

Image


I was hoping for a photo of an actual cockpit, not from a manual. Also, you didn't state which plane it's from.


That picture is a MAX, the NG is a similar message, but I’m not sure exactly where on the tube it displays.


Again, a photo of a cockpit.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
barney captain
Posts: 2221
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:23 am

morrisond wrote:

Talk to Boeing's biggest Customer - Southwest - they were adamant through the NG and MAX generations that not much changed.


Source?

The lie that just won't die.

The last demand Southwest put on Boeing was to offer steam gauges in the Classic. After that, it was the standard customer input that every airline participated in.

Do you honestly think Boeing catered to the demands of one airline that was purchasing 10% of the total units sold, or to what was best for the global market?
Southeast Of Disorder
 
AABusDrvr
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:48 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:24 am

sgrow787 wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:

I was hoping for a photo of an actual cockpit, not from a manual. Also, you didn't state which plane it's from.


That picture is a MAX, the NG is a similar message, but I’m not sure exactly where on the tube it displays.


Again, a photo of a cockpit.



You can't test the comparator warnings from the cockpit, unless there is a maintenance test I don't know about, so I doubt you will find a real picture, taken in the cockpit of the message. It's going to look just like the diagram from the manual. There isn't any master caution or aural warning associated with it, just the message on the display.
 
DenverTed
Posts: 265
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:06 am

barney captain wrote:
morrisond wrote:

Talk to Boeing's biggest Customer - Southwest - they were adamant through the NG and MAX generations that not much changed.


Source?

The lie that just won't die.

The last demand Southwest put on Boeing was to offer steam gauges in the Classic. After that, it was the standard customer input that every airline participated in.

Do you honestly think Boeing catered to the demands of one airline that was purchasing 10% of the total units sold, or to what was best for the global market?

From what I remember, everything on the MAX had to 'buy it's way' onto the airplane. No new nose section, windscreen, etc. The main design decision that I could see was the powerplant. The optimization of the engine and size constraint. How big to make the fan, how big and powerful to make the core. The design constraints were pointing towards a light 737-7/8 and the market was moving towards the A321.
 
DenverTed
Posts: 265
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:07 am

barney captain wrote:
morrisond wrote:

Talk to Boeing's biggest Customer - Southwest - they were adamant through the NG and MAX generations that not much changed.


Source?

The lie that just won't die.

The last demand Southwest put on Boeing was to offer steam gauges in the Classic. After that, it was the standard customer input that every airline participated in.

Do you honestly think Boeing catered to the demands of one airline that was purchasing 10% of the total units sold, or to what was best for the global market?

From what I remember, everything on the MAX had to 'buy it's way' onto the airplane. No new nose section, windscreen, etc. The main design decision that I could see was the powerplant. The optimization of the engine and size constraint. How big to make the fan, how big and powerful to make the core. The design constraints were pointing towards a light 737-7/8 and the market was moving towards the A321.
 
sgrow787
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 8:12 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:21 am

AABusDrvr wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:

That picture is a MAX, the NG is a similar message, but I’m not sure exactly where on the tube it displays.


Again, a photo of a cockpit.



You can't test the comparator warnings from the cockpit, unless there is a maintenance test I don't know about, so I doubt you will find a real picture, taken in the cockpit of the message. It's going to look just like the diagram from the manual. There isn't any master caution or aural warning associated with it, just the message on the display.


And no Max simulator that had/has it? Anyways, you grabbed the photo from a manual. What is the copyright on the manual and/or the date of the photo?

EDIT: Apparently I'm not allowed to post too soon after my last post (2 hrs ago).
Last edited by sgrow787 on Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just one sensor,
Oh just one se-en-sor,
Just one sensor,
Ooh ooh oo-ooh
Oo-oo-ooh.
 
Agrajag
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:23 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:58 am

barney captain wrote:
morrisond wrote:

Talk to Boeing's biggest Customer - Southwest - they were adamant through the NG and MAX generations that not much changed.


Source?

The lie that just won't die.

The last demand Southwest put on Boeing was to offer steam gauges in the Classic. After that, it was the standard customer input that every airline participated in.

Do you honestly think Boeing catered to the demands of one airline that was purchasing 10% of the total units sold, or to what was best for the global market?



And the widely reported $1m per frame rebate should sim training be required?
The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.
Slartibartfast had a point
 
oschkosch
Posts: 289
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:08 am

October 30 is the date to watch out for!

https://fortune.com/2019/10/04/boeing-7 ... uilenburg/

Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg is scheduled to testify in front of a House committee on October 30, his first congressional appearance since 346 people died in the crashes of two of his company's recently introduced 737 Max aircraft.

Muilenburg can expect to be grilled about the airworthiness of the troubled 737 Max and the updates being made to its problematic flight software in order to avoid a repeat of the crashes of Lion Air flight 610 in October 2018, and Ethiopian Airlines flight 302 in March 2019.

“All of this information is critical to have as we prepare for our Committee's October 30th hearing,” Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-Ore.), chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, told Reuters Wednesday following news coverage of Ewing's complaint.

“These reports certainly add to my concern that production pressures may have impacted safety on the 737 Max, which is exactly why it's so critical we get to the bottom of this.”
 
AirwayBill
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:37 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:12 am

oschkosch wrote:
October 30 is the date to watch out for!

https://fortune.com/2019/10/04/boeing-7 ... uilenburg/



The day before Halloween! I feel the goose bumps already... :tombstone:
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 649
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:09 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:08 am

AirwayBill wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
October 30 is the date to watch out for!

https://fortune.com/2019/10/04/boeing-7 ... uilenburg/



The day before Halloween! I feel the goose bumps already... :tombstone:

This is the day after all the medias will remember that JT610 crashed last year: 29 October 2018
And the JT610 Report is expected to be published around that date...
 
User avatar
flyingphil
Posts: 243
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 2:56 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:30 am

So what started off as a simple software fix has degenerated into a can of worms... with still more revelations to come..?

We have:
MCAS v2 still not submitted
The cockpit crew alerts and warning systems not passing current FAA regulations
The protection of the rudder cables not passing current FAA regulations
The bit flip issue
The trim wheel issue
The checklists issue
The MAX10 not yet passing the evacuation test .. nor its new telescoping landing gear being demonstrated..
... anything I have missed out ?

... and it will be back in the air by Thanksgiving :twisted:
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:02 am

Not so good news for Boeing suppliers!

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/201 ... /?business

Aircraft parts-maker Spirit AeroSystems has seen its stock price decline by 20% since the Boeing 737 Max jet was grounded but continues to churn out fuselages in anticipation of a rebound when the plane returns to the sky.

Tom Gentile, Spirit's president and chief executive officer, said Thursday that the Wichita-based company is building 52 fuselages a month, although Boeing reduced its production to 42 completed planes per month after two deadly crashes, The Wichita Eagle reported.

"What we agreed with Boeing was that we would stay at 52, because for us to go down, it meant that it would take us a very long time to come back," Gentile said during the Kansas Economic Outlook Conference, hosted annually by the Wichita State University Center for Economic Development and Business Research.

Gentile said it is "going to be a longer-term impact than everybody first thought," although he is hopeful because there has been "an incredible surge in orders" for aircraft with more than 150 seats. Before the grounding, Boeing and its suppliers had been planning to increase production.


As of Thursday, 65 extra fuselages are wrapped in plastic and Styrofoam, with a thick orange blanket used to cover them. Gentile says, "They look a little bit like goldfish."



Image
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:24 am

flyingphil wrote:
So what started off as a simple software fix has degenerated into a can of worms... with still more revelations to come..?

We have:
MCAS v2 still not submitted

Do we know what was submitted and tested by the FAA in June 2019?
I thought it was MCAS v2, the changes to v1 were all over the media prior to and immediately after the test and debated here not a.net
Now the bit flip was demonstrated by the FAA during the June testing then the EASA items were added on, those fixes were due end September which has been missed, still waiting to see a new time line for submission.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:44 am

 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:46 am

sgrow787 wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:

Again, a photo of a cockpit.



You can't test the comparator warnings from the cockpit, unless there is a maintenance test I don't know about, so I doubt you will find a real picture, taken in the cockpit of the message. It's going to look just like the diagram from the manual. There isn't any master caution or aural warning associated with it, just the message on the display.


And no Max simulator that had/has it? Anyways, you grabbed the photo from a manual. What is the copyright on the manual and/or the date of the photo?

EDIT: Apparently I'm not allowed to post too soon after my last post (2 hrs ago).


That picture is open source from the net, I don't know what the date is, but it agrees with my current manuals.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:33 pm

DenverTed wrote:
From what I remember, everything on the MAX had to 'buy it's way' onto the airplane. No new nose section, windscreen, etc.

To me it's clear that the "whistleblower" law suite is a challenge for Boeing. It shows an employee was so frustrated by management's concern for cost control that he was willing to go through the bother of filing the complaint and face any potential career blow back, and all this happened independently of the crashes. Taking this kind of action is something the average person would sympathize with, and juries are made up of average people. It's a lot different than ex-employees speaking to the media or anonymous current employees talking to the media after the crashes already happened, IMO.

Of course there is nothing illegal about stiff cost control nor rejecting engineers ideas for new safety related features, but again, it does establish the climate within the project team in a way that media reports after the fact cannot, and this may be very helpful for lawyers trying to sue for civil liability. IMO it's not a "smoking gun" but it is a fact that would increase the credibility of any report that cost control blocked any number of safety related tasks, and may encourage others with similar frustrations to come forward.

flyingphil wrote:
So what started off as a simple software fix has degenerated into a can of worms... with still more revelations to come..?

You called? :D

flyingphil wrote:
... anything I have missed out ?

"Whistleblower complaint states management rejected artificial speed system due to cost concerns"?

flyingphil wrote:
... and it will be back in the air by Thanksgiving

Still in theory possible, but just barely.

Work backwards:
  • Thanksgiving: first flight after EIS.
  • One week earlier: MAX rolls off factory floor with MCAS 2.0 plus other fixes installed, pre-delivery flight tests commence, crew re-training commence.
  • One month plus one week earlier: Certification flights take place, one month FAA review period begins, flight training material evaluation commences.

I wouldn't bet on it, but it is still in theory possible, and the main idea of the CEO stating that date is really just to keep everyone's feet to the fire. If he had said mid Q1 2020 then everyone would have given themselves an extra three months whether they needed it or not. It's always represented the quickest plausible RTS date, one almost certain to slip. It's the CEO's job to establish goals, it's the workforce's job to push back when the goals are not realistic.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:20 pm

Revelation wrote:
and the main idea of the CEO stating that date is really just to keep everyone's feet to the fire. If he had said mid Q1 2020 then everyone would have given themselves an extra three months whether they needed it or not. It's always represented the quickest plausible RTS date, one almost certain to slip. It's the CEO's job to establish goals, it's the workforce's job to push back when the goals are not realistic.


That is only applicable in internal communication. A CEO of a publically traded company should be able to substantiate any guidance given in external communication (or better given none at all when the issue is beyond your control). Moreover, slipping once is not a problem, slipping a few times may become problematic.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:39 pm

flyingphil wrote:
So what started off as a simple software fix has degenerated into a can of worms... with still more revelations to come..?

We have:
MCAS v2 still not submitted
The cockpit crew alerts and warning systems not passing current FAA regulations
The protection of the rudder cables not passing current FAA regulations
The bit flip issue
The trim wheel issue
The checklists issue
The MAX10 not yet passing the evacuation test .. nor its new telescoping landing gear being demonstrated..
... anything I have missed out ?

... and it will be back in the air by Thanksgiving :twisted:


I thought some were being very naive to have believed Boeing's timeline and assured us there was no reason to think it wouldn't all be nice and straightforward. It's just a simple software fix after all :scratchchin:
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:39 pm

LJ wrote:
That is only applicable in internal communication. A CEO of a publically traded company should be able to substantiate any guidance given in external communication (or better given none at all when the issue is beyond your control). Moreover, slipping once is not a problem, slipping a few times may become problematic.

The slip beyond September is on the CEO, the other part of his statement where he stated that Boeing did not control when the FAA would complete its task of ungrounding was also accurate, so he did meet the public standard.
If he got the fixes to the FAA by September, based on the FAA's guidance of needing roughly 4 weeks, a return to service in December was viable, it may still be but it all depends on when they submit the fixes and or their intentions to the FAA, once done the FAA clocks starts, right now we are still on Boeing's clock.

When we consider how many millions they are loosing and or racking up in compensation on a daily basis, the fact that they have not rushed a fix out for the other non-MCAS items since June means what?
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:40 pm

LJ wrote:
Revelation wrote:
and the main idea of the CEO stating that date is really just to keep everyone's feet to the fire. If he had said mid Q1 2020 then everyone would have given themselves an extra three months whether they needed it or not. It's always represented the quickest plausible RTS date, one almost certain to slip. It's the CEO's job to establish goals, it's the workforce's job to push back when the goals are not realistic.

That is only applicable in internal communication. A CEO of a publically traded company should be able to substantiate any guidance given in external communication (or better given none at all when the issue is beyond your control). Moreover, slipping once is not a problem, slipping a few times may become problematic.

I think DM has been careful to use the words "estimated time line" in his communication and reiterate that the time line is not under his control.

I think it is important for the CEO to put some sort of expectation out there for the company and its investors.

I think DM is doing so with some degree of career risk, but like it or not such risk is already a part of his career trajectory.

Part of his job is to be a well compensated fall guy, should the need arise.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:41 pm

More revelations for Revelation to chew over
Might make RTS by Thanksgiving 2020zz

Exclusive: Regulators weigh 'startle factors' for Boeing 737 MAX pilot training - Transport Canada executive

All about the ‘startle’ factor..


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKBN1WJ2IU
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:57 pm

flyingphil wrote:
More revelations for Revelation to chew over
Might make RTS by Thanksgiving 2020zz

Exclusive: Regulators weigh 'startle factors' for Boeing 737 MAX pilot training - Transport Canada executive

All about the ‘startle’ factor..

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKBN1WJ2IU

TFA says:

The same year, Chesley “Sully” Sullenberger safely landed a US Airways flight on the Hudson River in New York after a bird strike disabled the engines. He told lawmakers in June that the 737 MAX crew could have been confused as they struggled to maintain control of the aircraft.

“I can tell you firsthand that the startle factor is real and it’s huge. It absolutely interferes with one’s ability to quickly analyze the crisis and take corrective action,” Sullenberger said.

So startle factor is not unique to Boeing or MAX, thus not going to be a factor in the MAX un-grounding, no more than it will lead to an A320 grounding because its pilots get startled when both engines ingest birds and stop delivering thrust.

This article shows how pretty much any concern one can generate about aviation is now being linked to the MAX tragedy.

At some point people do recognize piling on for what it is.

TFA also says:

“The only way to effectively deal with the physical and mental reactions of ‘startle effect’ is to have previously been exposed to it,” said Captain Larry Rooney, president of the Coalition of Airline Pilots Associations.

The goal of introducing startles is to teach pilots how to respond to “fight, flight or freeze” instincts in an environment where the effects are not life threatening, said Rooney. The only way to train for startle is in a simulator or in real life.

I agree such "startle training" is a good idea, but do not see how this is specific to MAX un-grounding, unless people are using the MAX tragedy to try to fix far reaching woes in aviation.

At some point we have to decide what is in scope and is out of scope, and I think that point will come relatively soon.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:26 pm

Too late to edit, so:

Revelation wrote:
To me it's clear that the "whistleblower" law suite is a challenge for Boeing. It shows an employee was so frustrated by management's concern for cost control that he was willing to go through the bother of filing the complaint and face any potential career blow back, and all this happened independently of the crashes. Taking this kind of action is something the average person would sympathize with, and juries are made up of average people. It's a lot different than ex-employees speaking to the media or anonymous current employees talking to the media after the crashes already happened, IMO.

Of course there is nothing illegal about stiff cost control nor rejecting engineers ideas for new safety related features, but again, it does establish the climate within the project team in a way that media reports after the fact cannot, and this may be very helpful for lawyers trying to sue for civil liability. IMO it's not a "smoking gun" but it is a fact that would increase the credibility of any report that cost control blocked any number of safety related tasks, and may encourage others with similar frustrations to come forward.

Reuters: Boeing crash victims' lawyer to seek testimony from 737 MAX whistleblower says:

An attorney representing families of passengers killed in a Boeing Co 737 MAX crash in Ethiopia said on Friday he will seek sworn evidence from a Boeing engineer who claims the company rejected a proposed safety upgrade to the 737 MAX because it was too costly.

That didn't take long.

Revelation wrote:
I think it is important for the CEO to put some sort of expectation out there for the company and its investors.

I think DM is doing so with some degree of career risk, but like it or not such risk is already a part of his career trajectory.

Part of his job is to be a well compensated fall guy, should the need arise.

Barrons: Boeing Stock Is Hanging On. The CEO May Not. says:

“If an activist showed up at Boeing, Dennis Muilenburg would be cooked,” Gordon Haskett analyst Don Bilson tells Barron’s. “Absent that, he probably survives though he is down to his last strike.” Bilson is unique in expressing that opinion on the record, though he is not the only one on Wall Street wondering if Muilenburg will survive the turmoil.

For those who don't get the metaphor, in baseball you get three strikes, and the analyst is suggesting DM has already taken two.

It means that if there is another setback his job is in jeopardy.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:18 pm

Revelation -- The engineer, Curtis Ewbank

This person has already been discussed. He has taken ownership ( of the design and implementation he said he designed it not our team designed it ) of the monitoring and control cockpit system/s. He went to work everyday and collected a paycheck , he accepted the bonus's that were given out , he accepted and used the paid vacation time that was given out , and he accept and used the sick time given out.

This man did not say anything until he went back to work for Boeing in 2018. Why would anyone believe anything he has to say ? He is just as guilty , if not more , than Boeing itself.

He designed a sub standard system , let it be used , and just kept working until he left in 2015. He came back to Boeing employment for a second around 2018. He is now working on the 777x , is Boeing going to have the same problem with it ( the 777x ) from this guy. In the eyes of myself and my friends this guy should be investigated for charges of murder. Look again he said nothing until 2018!
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:35 pm

Again, for the pilots-did-it crowd:

The accident did not result from the lack of a single failure of someone forgetting to do something, be it about maintenance action, "turning off MCAS", or controlling the speed of the airplane.

We don't really know for sure, yet of course. But MCAS design was a big Swiss cheese hole, and this is why the aircraft model is currently grounded. Per leaked information about the upcoming reports and various regulator opinions, another major cheese hole was the clusterf*k of alarms that lit up from a failure in a single sensor, probably contributing to crew confusion. Lack of training *for this specific situation in this specific aircraft* was probably a contributing cheese hole as well.

The issue is not "why did the crew not push button X" but rather "what human factors are at play in an overly confusingly presented danger situation" and "how can we avoid getting into this situation in the future". It may also be about "how can we train pilots to deal with a complex, multi-alarm situation in the most effective way".

To be honest, the endless simplistic tirade about the pilots is tiresome. Global data about accidents rates is overall excellent; we don't seem to have a piloting problem in general. We may have a piloting problem for a specific situation, but we most certainly have a design problem. It is just *stupid* to have a design where a single and relatively likely failure leads to Christmas tree alarms and points nose to the ground, in a critical phase of flight. Lets fix that, and then we can all enjoy the nice, fuel-efficient MAX flights in a reasonably safe manner.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:05 pm

jmry888 wrote:
Revelation -- The engineer,

This person has already been discussed. He has taken ownership ( of the design and implementation he said he designed it not our team designed it ) of the monitoring and control cockpit system/s. He went to work everyday and collected a paycheck , he accepted the bonus's that were given out , he accepted and used the paid vacation time that was given out , and he accept and used the sick time given out.

This man did not say anything until he went back to work for Boeing in 2018. Why would anyone believe anything he has to say ? He is just as guilty , if not more , than Boeing itself.

He designed a sub standard system , let it be used , and just kept working until he left in 2015. He came back to Boeing employment for a second around 2018. He is now working on the 777x , is Boeing going to have the same problem with it ( the 777x ) from this guy. In the eyes of myself and my friends this guy should be investigated for charges of murder. Look again he said nothing until 2018!

From my point of view, that's an absurd ethical proposition.

Just because I accept compensation to help produce product X, definitely does not mean I must buy or recommend product X!

I've worked for many companies building several products I would not buy or recommend.

At work the only things I can control are things I work on, and even that is greatly influenced by the resources I'm given, such as time, budget, manpower, equipment, training, etc.

In many cases one avoids the things they work on because they know all the flaws, whereas the competing product may be just as flawed but those flaws aren't known.

What I do to earn money is different from what I do with my money.

Purchasing decisions run the spectrum from buyers who want the cheapest stuff and will deal with any quality issues, to buyers who pay a premium and make sure they get what they pay for.

Some of the stuff I've worked on appeals to the "value shopper", yet my own purchasing decisions are along the lines of a "premium shopper".

Some things I've worked on is just because the work on offer was convenient, timely, and well paying, but I'd never buy or recommend the resulting product.

Re: He has taken ownership ( of the design and implementation he said he designed it not our team designed it ) of the monitoring and control cockpit system/s -- please provide proof.

None of the references I have can prove such a statement.

NYT ( https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/02/busi ... ashes.html ):

During the development of the 737 Max, Mr. Ewbank worked on the cockpit systems that pilots use to monitor and control the airplane.

ST ( https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... over-cost/ ):

He was hired by Boeing in 2010 to work on designing commercial airplane flight deck systems, including the MAX.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:20 pm

Revelation
The difference is what this man designed and took ownership of had the lives of people depending on it. You can look at all the articles you want but he has publicly said " that's my design i designed it " . At the end of the day he knew it wasn't up to the job , and went on his merry way until 2018 then he started blaming Boeing.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:36 pm

One man´s decision should not have a meaningful impact in such decisions unless he is the manager making the final decision in a conflict. If one guy can do a safety critical feature without peer-review and without oversight of the leadership, it is the company´s fault if things go wrong.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:43 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
Again, for the pilots-did-it crowd:

The accident did not result from the lack of a single failure of someone forgetting to do something, be it about maintenance action, "turning off MCAS", or controlling the speed of the airplane.

Are we sure about this?

(1) Stick shaker -> (2) Stall Recovery NNC -> (3) Don't retract flaps -> (4) No MCAS 1.0 activation.

Yes, (4) was not known till after the Lion Air EAD was written, but the first three were, and still are the recommended action for stick shaker on all those thousands of NGs flying around today, no?

And yes, MCAS increased an already high workload and made it too much to handle (as confirmed by Boeing and FAA), but stick shaker happened minutes before MCAS triggered.

Ref: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1421471&p=21336139#p21336139
Ref: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1421471&p=21325699#p21325699
Ref: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1417545&p=21318757#p21318757

IMO, controlling speed of the aircraft falls into the "airmanship" / "situational awareness" bucket.

Not controlling airspeed made a bad situation worse.
Last edited by Revelation on Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:44 pm

I have no idea where you get conflict from. But several of my retired pilot friends have said they are done with this site. In their opinion you only entertain posts that bash Boeing . I am finding that i am starting to agree with them.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:48 pm

Revelation wrote:
The same year, Chesley “Sully” Sullenberger safely landed a US Airways flight on the Hudson River in New York after a bird strike disabled the engines. He told lawmakers in June that the 737 MAX crew could have been confused as they struggled to maintain control of the aircraft.

“I can tell you firsthand that the startle factor is real and it’s huge. It absolutely interferes with one’s ability to quickly analyze the crisis and take corrective action,” Sullenberger said.

So startle factor is not unique to Boeing or MAX, thus not going to be a factor in the MAX un-grounding,


The general issue is of course industry-broad, but I think you are a bit fast to conclude that there's no MAX issue. There definitely is a MAX-specific issue, because the single-sensor-failing-leading-to-xmas-tree-alarms design. Now that is a problem, and it is very MAX specific.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:53 pm

Revelation, you are taking individual conditions (e.g., stick shaker) and concluding that pilots needed to run specific actions based on them. But you ignore the broader situation in the cockpit of having many other individual conditions/alarms going on, so the first task isn't necessarily to do something but to analyze what's going on. If I lit all the warnings lights on in your cockpit but only one of them is right, will you pick the right action?

But, I've said enough. Creating unnecessary confusion for pilots is not good design. I'll leave it at that.
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:54 pm

jmry888 wrote:
Revelation
The difference is what this man designed and took ownership of had the lives of people depending on it. You can look at all the articles you want but he has publicly said " that's my design i designed it " . At the end of the day he knew it wasn't up to the job , and went on his merry way until 2018 then he started blaming Boeing.

In other words you cannot find any articles where the man said what you claim he said.

It was not "his design" as you claim, it was something he "worked on" according to the cited articles.

jmry888 wrote:
I have no idea where you get conflict from. But several of my retired pilot friends have said they are done with this site. In their opinion you only entertain posts that bash Boeing . I am finding that i am starting to agree with them.

Funny, given that others suggest I'm a Boeing fan boy all the time.

Have you or your pilot friends ever considered that your system of values/ethics/judgements is not necessarily the same as every other human being on Earth?

Have you or your pilot friends ever considered that Boeing deserves a good bash for the poor MCAS 1.0 design, for not detecting its problems till after one airplane crashed, and for knowing that there was a problem to be addressed yet still opposing the grounding after the second crash?
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:01 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
Revelation, you are taking individual conditions (e.g., stick shaker) and concluding that pilots needed to run specific actions based on them. But you ignore the broader situation in the cockpit of having many other individual conditions/alarms going on, so the first task isn't necessarily to do something but to analyze what's going on. If I lit all the warnings lights on in your cockpit but only one of them is right, will you pick the right action?

Thing is, stick shaker still can happen early in flight on a NG, and neither Boeing or FAA are saying the grounding has anything to do with the amount of alarms/conditions/lights a stick shaker triggers, they are saying MCAS activation on top of stick shaker class alarms/conditions/lights does, yet we do expect NG pilots to react to stick shaker with Stall Recovery NNC, which would have avoided MCAS activation if they had.

AirlineCritic wrote:
Creating unnecessary confusion for pilots is not good design. I'll leave it at that.

Yes, you, I and the NTSB all agree on this.
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:47 pm

Revelation wrote:
AirlineCritic wrote:
Revelation, you are taking individual conditions (e.g., stick shaker) and concluding that pilots needed to run specific actions based on them. But you ignore the broader situation in the cockpit of having many other individual conditions/alarms going on, so the first task isn't necessarily to do something but to analyze what's going on. If I lit all the warnings lights on in your cockpit but only one of them is right, will you pick the right action?

Thing is, stick shaker still can happen early in flight on a NG, and neither Boeing or FAA are saying the grounding has anything to do with the amount of alarms/conditions/lights a stick shaker triggers, they are saying MCAS activation on top of stick shaker class alarms/conditions/lights does, yet we do expect NG pilots to react to stick shaker with Stall Recovery NNC, which would have avoided MCAS activation if they had.

AirlineCritic wrote:
Creating unnecessary confusion for pilots is not good design. I'll leave it at that.

Yes, you, I and the NTSB all agree on this.

There is no stall recovery NNC or stick shaker NNC that I can find anywhere. Single side stick shaker is identifiable as an erroneous warning. In all four cases, where we can reference formal reports, that included single side stick shaker at T/O, the crews maintained climb and maintained or increased thrust.

It is become more and more clear that the crews were overwhelmed. In similar situation with NG (one of the four) they did not have the MCAS trap and were able to work through the problems. NTSB have recommended that Boeing/FAA review other instances where immediate pilot action is expected in similar multiple alert/warning situations to assure that there are no other hazardous/catastrophic effects that may be fallen into.

Ray
 
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:04 pm

Revelation wrote:
jmry888 wrote:
Revelation
The difference is what this man designed and took ownership of had the lives of people depending on it. You can look at all the articles you want but he has publicly said " that's my design i designed it " . At the end of the day he knew it wasn't up to the job , and went on his merry way until 2018 then he started blaming Boeing.

In other words you cannot find any articles where the man said what you claim he said.

It was not "his design" as you claim, it was something he "worked on" according to the cited articles.

jmry888 wrote:
I have no idea where you get conflict from. But several of my retired pilot friends have said they are done with this site. In their opinion you only entertain posts that bash Boeing . I am finding that i am starting to agree with them.

Funny, given that others suggest I'm a Boeing fan boy all the time.

Have you or your pilot friends ever considered that your system of values/ethics/judgements is not necessarily the same as every other human being on Earth?

Have you or your pilot friends ever considered that Boeing deserves a good bash for the poor MCAS 1.0 design, for not detecting its problems till after one airplane crashed, and for knowing that there was a problem to be addressed yet still opposing the grounding after the second crash?


Maybe his pilot friends are of the imaginary friends type?

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marvindroid
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Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:59 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:31 pm

Muilenburg Economic club of New York, 02.oct 2019.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh0KK1dv2-Q&t=2248s

36:07 - Talks about software fix.

He says they added triple redundancy to MCAS.

1. Data from two vanes.
2. MCAS can only operate omce per flight
3. Reduced control power of MCAS.

How can he claim that this is adding triple redundancy to MCAS? 2. and 3. are just software tweeks, not redundancies in the system?

Probably some more details to dissect from the interview, but I'll leave that to someone else.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:56 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
There is no stall recovery NNC or stick shaker NNC that I can find anywhere.

Not an actual NNC, but part of the QRH that lists the NNCs, Pg 345 of "737 Flight Crew Operations Manual", September 27, 2012:

Non-Normal Maneuvers
Approach to Stall or Stall Recovery
...
Immediately do the following at the first indication of stall (buffet or stick shaker).
...
Disconnect autopilot and autothrottle.
...
Do not change gear or flap configuration, except
• During liftoff, if flaps are up, call for flaps 1
.
Ref: http://jira.icesoft.org/secure/attachme ... %2027k.pdf

XRAYretired wrote:
In similar situation with NG (one of the four) they did not have the MCAS trap and were able to work through the problems.

In the incident covered by the "60 Minutes Australia" piece (I forget if it was JT or ET, I can dig up my post), I showed it was two minutes from take off till MCAS kicked in. One would hope the "immediate" reaction to stick shaker would be to do the above, no?

XRAYretired wrote:
NTSB have recommended that Boeing/FAA review other instances where immediate pilot action is expected in similar multiple alert/warning situations to assure that there are no other hazardous/catastrophic effects that may be fallen into.

Yes, as I wrote above, I agree with the NTSB recommendation.
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