hivue
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:00 pm

seahawk wrote:
As long as a system makes direct inputs into the major flight control systems, it should not be hidden from the pilots. It would not help if a crew would diagnose MCAS input as a runway trim and disable the system in a situation of need.

That is the whole hole in the logic by Boeing. If I expect a crew to recognize a faulty MACS activation as a runway trim within 3 seconds, I must expect that they would recognize it as the same when MCAS is activating correctly as long as the pilots do not know about the system.


MCAS 1.0 has gotten such astoundingly bad PR that now folks are claiming that should it ever have operated as intended in the absence of any other failures in the airplane, crew would be expected to also see that as some kind of problem that they needed to address since they didn't know MCAS existed. On the other hand, if the crew had previously been able to read all about MCAS in the FCOM or FCTM they would instead say, "There goes MCAS doing its job." I think many of us have gone a wee bit too far down the rabbit hole.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
asdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:52 pm

morrisond wrote:
asdf wrote:
but in case of ET crash they already followed the checklists and procedures
so you can not gain any improvement in handling from this
so there is no context to the MCAS drama


That has not been proven at all.

Just in case you missed this article. I came across it looking for the article about the Pilot who quit when ET was slow in providing information on MCAS after Lionair.

This one is some good reading from the Washington Post in 2015.

"One pilot accused the airline of employing flight simulator trainers that are not knowledgeable about “aircraft systems, Boeing procedures, or company procedures,” and failing to follow a syllabus for a pilot training course.

“Across the board, 737, 767 [and] 777 [flight simulator] instructors not knowledgeable about the aircraft’s systems, Boeing procedures, or company procedures,” the pilot alleged in the complaint. “Overall, [Ethiopian Airlines] offers substandard training compared to industry norms," the pilot wrote.

"The pilot also noted that “non-normal checklists in the cockpit are not kept current, including complete omission of certain checklists,” referring to documents that instruct pilots on how to respond to “non-normal” equipment behaviors that can become dangerous."

The pilot also noted that “non-normal checklists in the cockpit are not kept current, including complete omission of certain checklists,” referring to documents that instruct pilots on how to respond to “non-normal” equipment behaviors that can become dangerous.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... ords-show/


no idea what you are talking about

i wrote that the crew did everything according to the checklists and the AD
you wrote something completely out of context

climb, flaps up, max thrust
thats what they did
and its according tothe textbook

source:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1432067&start=350#p21708437
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:12 am

asdf wrote:
morrisond wrote:
asdf wrote:
but in case of ET crash they already followed the checklists and procedures
so you can not gain any improvement in handling from this
so there is no context to the MCAS drama


That has not been proven at all.

Just in case you missed this article. I came across it looking for the article about the Pilot who quit when ET was slow in providing information on MCAS after Lionair.

This one is some good reading from the Washington Post in 2015.

"One pilot accused the airline of employing flight simulator trainers that are not knowledgeable about “aircraft systems, Boeing procedures, or company procedures,” and failing to follow a syllabus for a pilot training course.

“Across the board, 737, 767 [and] 777 [flight simulator] instructors not knowledgeable about the aircraft’s systems, Boeing procedures, or company procedures,” the pilot alleged in the complaint. “Overall, [Ethiopian Airlines] offers substandard training compared to industry norms," the pilot wrote.

"The pilot also noted that “non-normal checklists in the cockpit are not kept current, including complete omission of certain checklists,” referring to documents that instruct pilots on how to respond to “non-normal” equipment behaviors that can become dangerous."

The pilot also noted that “non-normal checklists in the cockpit are not kept current, including complete omission of certain checklists,” referring to documents that instruct pilots on how to respond to “non-normal” equipment behaviors that can become dangerous.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... ords-show/


no idea what you are talking about

i wrote that the crew did everything according to the checklists and the AD
you wrote something completely out of context

climb, flaps up, max thrust
thats what they did
and its according tothe textbook

source:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1432067&start=350#p21708437


And once they did that and established that they had valid Airspeed on the Co-pilot side and back-up instrument it was time to fly the plane.

Were they supposed to leave MAX Thrust engaged for the whole flight all the way to touch down or they climbed to the service ceiling of the aircraft?
 
B777LRF
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:12 am

While you're still banging on about the crew reactions being right or wrong, back in the real world it has zero impact on the RTS schedule.

Latest is that EASA are not happy with the way Boeing are suggesting having the two FCC's run in parallel. As some here, the undersigned included, envisioned when it was first made know that Boeing would have both FCC's talking to each other, that is not an easy exercise, nor one which can be accomplished in a couple of months. Seems Boeing attempted to do so anyway, and at least one regulator has told them to back off and do it properly.

Let us all recognise that there's absolutely no need or, indeed, impediment for the regulators to work overtime trying to fix Boeing's mess. From their point of view Boeing blindsided them, lied, mislead, withheld or suppressed vital information whilst cutting corner, performing dodgy safety evaluations and ended up having them certify an aircraft which, in their view, should not have been deemed airworthy by Boeing. If the regulators are having sleepless nights it's not because of the pressure to get the Max back in commercial service, it'll be over whether Boeing are once again keeping things from them or trying to press through solutions that are either skirting an acceptable level of compliance or downright failing to meet requirements. To be absolutely clear: Boeing stepped very hard on the feet of a large number of public servants working for regulators, and those public servants will be in no rush to certify a solution Boeing offers without making 100% sure everything is in absolute order. Boeing might have some truck with the FAA, but I am starting to suspect the FAA are not willing to risk any more damage to their reputation, and thus will not go solo lifting the grounding as long as there are serious reservations from the likes of EASA and TC.

Q1 2020 is now starting to look overtly optimistic, and a revision of that forecast is in order from my side. My best guess, given the latest information, is Q4 2020. This is based on the presumption it takes roughly 18 months to get the FCCs to talk to each other in a way that satisfies the regulators, and they've been working on that for around 5 months now. Those 18 months will also be sufficient for Boeing to address the other issues nagging the regulators. Yes, that is indeed another year worth of grounding for now, and the impact on the industry will be profound.

For those looking for links, Dominic Gates at the Seattle Times and the WSJ are your go-to places.

But, by all means, keeping grasping at any and all straws if it makes you feel better. At the end of the day though, it's of absolutely no consequence for the ungrounding of the aircraft.
Signature. You just read one.
 
MrBretz
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:34 am

I said Q4 2020 some time ago. I stand by that. But I think you might get some flights back as soon as late Q3. And what am I basing my opinion on? It’s called the seat of my pants.

On a more intellectual side, using both computers this late in the game is a significant change. Switchover or whose in charge logic is always fraught with difficulties.
 
asdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:16 am

morrisond wrote:
asdf wrote:
morrisond wrote:

That has not been proven at all.

Just in case you missed this article. I came across it looking for the article about the Pilot who quit when ET was slow in providing information on MCAS after Lionair.

This one is some good reading from the Washington Post in 2015.

"One pilot accused the airline of employing flight simulator trainers that are not knowledgeable about “aircraft systems, Boeing procedures, or company procedures,” and failing to follow a syllabus for a pilot training course.

“Across the board, 737, 767 [and] 777 [flight simulator] instructors not knowledgeable about the aircraft’s systems, Boeing procedures, or company procedures,” the pilot alleged in the complaint. “Overall, [Ethiopian Airlines] offers substandard training compared to industry norms," the pilot wrote.

"The pilot also noted that “non-normal checklists in the cockpit are not kept current, including complete omission of certain checklists,” referring to documents that instruct pilots on how to respond to “non-normal” equipment behaviors that can become dangerous."

The pilot also noted that “non-normal checklists in the cockpit are not kept current, including complete omission of certain checklists,” referring to documents that instruct pilots on how to respond to “non-normal” equipment behaviors that can become dangerous.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... ords-show/


no idea what you are talking about

i wrote that the crew did everything according to the checklists and the AD
you wrote something completely out of context

climb, flaps up, max thrust
thats what they did
and its according tothe textbook

source:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1432067&start=350#p21708437


And once they did that and established that they had valid Airspeed on the Co-pilot side and back-up instrument it was time to fly the plane.

Were they supposed to leave MAX Thrust engaged for the whole flight all the way to touch down or they climbed to the service ceiling of the aircraft?


as far as one can conclude from the FDR data and the public infos we have about the things going on in the cockpit, there was no part of flight with established valid airspeed and AoA.
they had different readings till the end, hadent they?

and MCAS kicked in with the "flaps up" part of the checklist and MCAS was the thing they forced during the last minutes of their life.

they had no clue how to stop MCAS
they had no clue that slowing down maybe would have helped them to a better outcome
 
Zeppi
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:25 am

hivue wrote:
On the other hand, if the crew had previously been able to read all about MCAS in the FCOM or FCTM they would instead say, "There goes MCAS doing its job."

If it works as intended and not sporadically goes into zombie mode you have a case, yes.
I'd be weary to fly an aircraft that exhibits such traits, let alone trying to figure out what the hell the system is trying to do when it goes into zombie mode during a high workload phase of the flight.
Really curious if the MAX is even certifiable again at all with MCAS or whatever they want to relabel it to to brush off the bad PR, it seems that for every bug they iron out they discover two new ones...
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:42 am

rheinwaldner wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
jmry888 wrote:
My friends and i have been wondering how many of the posters on this thread are 737 pilots , or any airline pilot ? We are just wondering.


I would be offended if you value a pilot's opinion over that of an aerospace engineer - I should hope that people involved in designing and building aircraft know more about how they work than those who fly them...

Exactly. The topic of this thread asks for engineers expertise, not pilots expertise.


It is both. The systems designed by engineers must be operated by pilots, so both need to be happy with any solution. The man to machine interface is just as important as the machine alone.
 
asdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:46 am

hivue wrote:
...On the other hand, if the crew had previously been able to read all about MCAS in the FCOM or FCTM they would instead say, "There goes MCAS doing its job."


sir, with respect ... at THAT time we all did NOT know a lot about MCAS at all

all we know was that there was a crash
and we all got told it probably has to do with sloopy maintainance through lion air

yes, there was a new AD but it didnt tell the whole story at all
it simply told procedures (in the wrong sequence)

IF the pilots would have known about MCAS, out-of-trim-problems and all what we know today
...they maybe simply would not have taken a seat in that MAX
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:30 am

This is really dragging on. Whilst they were negligent before, now they're starting to go into "cover your ass" mode to the point that nothing gets done. Pilots know all about MCAS now - they can adjust it to make it less aggressive and get those planes back in the air.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:35 am

You could fly the MAX without any changes safely today. But that would require crew training for the MCAS and that is something Boeing does not want, as customers do not want any extra training (apart from some ipad hours) when changing from the NG to the MAX.

All it needs is a working AoA disagree warning in the cockpit and a MCAS failure checklist. (which would probably be trained for in the sim when adding the type rating)
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:00 am

B777LRF wrote:
Latest is that EASA are not happy with the way Boeing are suggesting having the two FCC's run in parallel. As some here, the undersigned included, envisioned when it was first made know that Boeing would have both FCC's talking to each other, that is not an easy exercise, nor one which can be accomplished in a couple of months. Seems Boeing attempted to do so anyway, and at least one regulator has told them to back off and do it properly.
Right.
I suspect that the safety issue is to use one FCC to forward the data to the other FCC. If the forwarding FCC fail, the other FCC can only get data from a single sensor.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:09 am

seahawk wrote:
You could fly the MAX without any changes safely today. But that would require crew training for the MCAS and that is something Boeing does not want, as customers do not want any extra training (apart from some ipad hours) when changing from the NG to the MAX.

All it needs is a working AoA disagree warning in the cockpit and a MCAS failure checklist. (which would probably be trained for in the sim when adding the type rating)
Whatever training you include, MAX with MCAS ver.1 is not certifiable, period
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:51 am

It is difficult to understand what Boeing is doing. Why did they not go for solutions that would surly make all the regulators satisfied? Install EICAS, that is already integrated in the P-8. Have increased computing power to copy MCAS from 767 tanker. Do the manual wheel, so it works when it is needed. If some of the wires for the flight control do need better protection, just do it instead of looking for endless exceptions to the rules.

I even believe, that regulators could let the MAX fly again temporary, with some of the above still missing, if Boeing does all of the above by certain dates.

Boeing will perhaps also need to accept that moving over to the MAX must include serious training.

As it is, Boeing is spending time and money on half backed solutions, that nobody knows if all regulators will accept. No all regulators will back down, like the FAA, when Boeing declares safety does cost to much money.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:11 am

It can't be long until Boeing has to stop the production of the MAX. That will massively affect suppliers that had been tasked to INCREASE production rates before and then their own staff that will sit idle or be fired and get new jobs elsewhere. Bad for restarting production afterwards.
 
asdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:28 am

Noshow wrote:
It can't be long until Boeing has to stop the production of the MAX. That will massively affect suppliers that had been tasked to INCREASE production rates before and then their own staff that will sit idle or be fired and get new jobs elsewhere. Bad for restarting production afterwards.


If the CEO has even a little bit of reality awareness, the project for a "real" expensive, but safe solution of the MAX problem runs in the background since a long time. You can certainly use partial knowledge of it for the NSA if it is time for it.
The current shadow boxing is probably only to hopefully get away with a quick & dirty solution to get it cheap

if there are no such developments in the background .... then I really feel sorry for the employees and the steakholders
 
uta999
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:34 am

If this is going to take another year+, then I would get a team together to 'downgrade' a few production MAX's back to NG standard. See if its do-able and at what cost, then offer it to airlines now. I would also cease production of the MAX until a version is certified again. Building more is pointless and puts the company in jeopardy.
Your computer just got better
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:40 am

asdf wrote:

then I really feel sorry for the employees and the steakholders


At least the second ones have something to eat. Really made me chuckle a bit as it is lunch time here. No steak for me tho...
 
asdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:43 am

uta999 wrote:
.... Building more is pointless and puts the company in jeopardy.....


Building more, a lot more, builds up pressure on politicans and congress

it is maybe the last resort to bring the ships up in the air again
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:49 am

asdf wrote:
[
they had no clue how to stop MCAS
they had no clue that slowing down maybe would have helped them to a better outcome


Finally we agree on something. Yes - unfortunately for themselves and the passengers on those flights due to the probable bad training at ET - it appears they had no clue what they were doing.

I can't say that for sure (no one can for sure) but there is enough smoke that Bad training could be considered a significant contributing factor.

Valid AOA crosscheck was dead in the water (but the Co-pilots did still work and it was a clear day so looking out the Window would have given them an OK cross check) as they had no way to cross check but not needed to complete the flight - however they could have easily determined that the Co-pilots airspeed was valid by cross checking with the standby instrument.

I don't think any pilot in the world wouldn't have been able to at least figure that part out. They would/should have known how fast they were flying.
Last edited by morrisond on Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:53 am

Again pointing at the customer and not at the manufacturer that had kept the system a secret?
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:01 am

B777LRF wrote:
Latest is that EASA are not happy with the way Boeing are suggesting having the two FCC's run in parallel. As some here, the undersigned included, envisioned when it was first made know that Boeing would have both FCC's talking to each other, that is not an easy exercise, nor one which can be accomplished in a couple of months. Seems Boeing attempted to do so anyway, and at least one regulator has told them to back off and do it properly.



What is the latest article that discusses this issue?

Oh well - if it's grounded for longer - more time for training.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:06 am

Noshow wrote:
Again pointing at the customer and not at the manufacturer that had kept the system a secret?


No - Boeing totally screwed up but as I have said many times - the crashes uncovered some real deficiencies in training.

By the time of the ET crash they knew all about MCAS and the flight should most probably not have resulted in a crash.
 
uta999
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:57 am

morrisond wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Again pointing at the customer and not at the manufacturer that had kept the system a secret?


No - Boeing totally screwed up but as I have said many times - the crashes uncovered some real deficiencies in training.

By the time of the ET crash they knew all about MCAS and the flight should most probably not have resulted in a crash.


The plane crashed, so there goes your theory...

If they could have they probably would have saved the plane. You weren't there so stop writing crap.
Your computer just got better
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:54 pm

seahawk wrote:
You could fly the MAX without any changes safely today. But that would require crew training for the MCAS and that is something Boeing does not want, as customers do not want any extra training (apart from some ipad hours) when changing from the NG to the MAX.

So to be clear, it is your belief that it is cheaper for Boeing to continue to produce 40+ a/c per month, park them all over the place, pay vendors as normal versus paying for training so that they can start delivering hundreds of 737-MAX a/c?
Ok
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:55 pm

uta999 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Again pointing at the customer and not at the manufacturer that had kept the system a secret?


No - Boeing totally screwed up but as I have said many times - the crashes uncovered some real deficiencies in training.

By the time of the ET crash they knew all about MCAS and the flight should most probably not have resulted in a crash.


The plane crashed, so there goes your theory...

If they could have they probably would have saved the plane. You weren't there so stop writing crap.


In a cockpit full of (in)correct vocal alerts, warning lights, single points of failure, refusing trim wheels, stall rumbling sticks that can't be stopped, a pilot theoretically could have saved the aircraft. So we can try focussing on training to handle, trouble shoot, pull circuit breakers by the pilots. In the seconds they have. Or conclude it's a bad cockpit. Certainly if requirements were customized for it by the builder itself.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:55 pm

kalvado wrote:
Whatever training you include, MAX with MCAS ver.1 is not certifiable, period

MCAS v2. whatever was rolled out and tested by the FAA in June, so as far as we know, there is no MCAS v1 any more.
 
slider
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:07 pm

I said back in early summer that the MAX wouldn't be back until spring break 2020 at the earliest.

Geez, I didn't think that might be optimistic. Yeesh, but here we are.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:19 pm

It feels like we have not come closer. While the initial planned changes were widely known now it got very quiet again. Feels like they are not close to some solution anymore.
Now with the ongoing WTO escalation and tariffs I wonder if that opens some second front versus some return to service?
 
Ishrion
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:21 pm

http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... fault.aspx

AA extends MAX cancellations to Jan. 15.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:27 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Latest is that EASA are not happy with the way Boeing are suggesting having the two FCC's run in parallel. As some here, the undersigned included, envisioned when it was first made know that Boeing would have both FCC's talking to each other, that is not an easy exercise, nor one which can be accomplished in a couple of months. Seems Boeing attempted to do so anyway, and at least one regulator has told them to back off and do it properly.

That is not an accurate characterization based on what we are being told.

The WSJ report ( https://www.wsj.com/articles/friction-b ... 1570527001 ) is the main source and it says:

The European Union Aviation Safety Agency recently told senior U.S. regulators it wasn’t satisfied that FAA and Boeing officials had adequately demonstrated the safety of reconfigured MAX flight-control computers, according to people briefed on the discussions.

And:

EASA has signaled, though, that it wants additional risk scenarios examined beyond those in the current testing plan, this person said.

So EASA is not saying they are unhappy with the approach, they are saying they are unhappy with the test plan.

And we also read:

Boeing engineers are frustrated EASA hasn’t specified what additional measures might allay its objections, according to people close to the discussions.

So Boeing at least feels the concerns aren't being clearly stated.

The article goes on to say the situation is fluid, compromises are being discussed, etc.

B777LRF wrote:
Q1 2020 is now starting to look overtly optimistic, and a revision of that forecast is in order from my side. My best guess, given the latest information, is Q4 2020. This is based on the presumption it takes roughly 18 months to get the FCCs to talk to each other in a way that satisfies the regulators, and they've been working on that for around 5 months now. Those 18 months will also be sufficient for Boeing to address the other issues nagging the regulators. Yes, that is indeed another year worth of grounding for now, and the impact on the industry will be profound.

WSJ says:

Before the recent concerns expressed by EASA, senior FAA officials were growing optimistic they would be ready to give the green light for MAX flights as soon as early November, according to people familiar with the matter. The friction with their European counterparts is likely to delay that timeline until at least later that month, these people added.

Have you taken a report of a half month slip and some how turned it into a one year slip?

B777LRF wrote:
But, by all means, keeping grasping at any and all straws if it makes you feel better. At the end of the day though, it's of absolutely no consequence for the ungrounding of the aircraft.

Oh, brother...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:44 pm

keesje wrote:
In a cockpit full of (in)correct vocal alerts, warning lights, single points of failure, refusing trim wheels, stall rumbling sticks that can't be stopped, a pilot theoretically could have saved the aircraft. So we can try focussing on training to handle, trouble shoot, pull circuit breakers by the pilots. In the seconds they have. Or conclude it's a bad cockpit. Certainly if requirements were customized for it by the builder itself.

Interestingly enough, you, I and morrisond are saying the same thing.

The flight before JT610 shows the exact same plane could be saved by pilot actions.

Both Boeing and FAA have confirmed that MCAS 1.0 put too much workload on the pilot.

Given the cockpit is the pilot's user interface, it is fair to say a bad cockpit put too much workload on the pilot.

FAA gave Boeing exemptions based on similarity to NG, but MCAS made MAX quite different from NG.

Once MAX is fixed chances are good that it will be safer than NG since the two FCC outputs will be compared, something NG does not do.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:47 pm

Aviation authorities requested changes to the airplane and grounded it until then because they felt it is not safe the way it is. NOT depending on the crew BUT on the aircraft.

I honestly hope the MAX can be made safe and return to service ASAP but this sounds again like Boeing still doesn't take this serious enough. It's not about the easiest way for Boeing but about finally making the plane safe. US pilot unions are supporting this view.
Last edited by Noshow on Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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PITingres
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:53 pm

uta999 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Again pointing at the customer and not at the manufacturer that had kept the system a secret?


No - Boeing totally screwed up but as I have said many times - the crashes uncovered some real deficiencies in training.

By the time of the ET crash they knew all about MCAS and the flight should most probably not have resulted in a crash.


The plane crashed, so there goes your theory...


Good grief. "Doctor, please try to restrain your leaps of illogic." The crash does not disprove a "probably should not have" statement in any way.
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
AABusDrvr
Posts: 83
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:59 pm

asdf wrote:
morrisond wrote:
asdf wrote:

no idea what you are talking about

i wrote that the crew did everything according to the checklists and the AD
you wrote something completely out of context

climb, flaps up, max thrust
thats what they did
and its according tothe textbook

source:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1432067&start=350#p21708437


And once they did that and established that they had valid Airspeed on the Co-pilot side and back-up instrument it was time to fly the plane.

Were they supposed to leave MAX Thrust engaged for the whole flight all the way to touch down or they climbed to the service ceiling of the aircraft?


as far as one can conclude from the FDR data and the public infos we have about the things going on in the cockpit, there was no part of flight with established valid airspeed and AoA.
they had different readings till the end, hadent they?

and MCAS kicked in with the "flaps up" part of the checklist and MCAS was the thing they forced during the last minutes of their life.

they had no clue how to stop MCAS
they had no clue that slowing down maybe would have helped them to a better outcome


They absolutely did have "valid" airspeed data, on the first officers side, and the ISFD, they also had valid AOA data on the first officers side.
 
 
uta999
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:16 pm

PITingres wrote:
uta999 wrote:
morrisond wrote:

No - Boeing totally screwed up but as I have said many times - the crashes uncovered some real deficiencies in training.

By the time of the ET crash they knew all about MCAS and the flight should most probably not have resulted in a crash.


The plane crashed, so there goes your theory...


Good grief. "Doctor, please try to restrain your leaps of illogic." The crash does not disprove a "probably should not have" statement in any way.


Of course it does. Are you saying the pilots wanted to die? The plane crashed. That is a fact. Yours is just a hindsight theory, as well as being complete nonsense.
Your computer just got better
 
kalvado
Posts: 2014
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:29 pm

par13del wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Whatever training you include, MAX with MCAS ver.1 is not certifiable, period

MCAS v2. whatever was rolled out and tested by the FAA in June, so as far as we know, there is no MCAS v1 any more.

Which would still be a very questionable decision technically, and given background of the issue - would seal FAA reputation as Boeing rubberstamping department for decades.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:37 pm

LJ wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
flyingphil wrote:
"Leading European low-cost operator Ryanair (RYA.I), which has been hit hard by the MAX grounding, is seeking to take over Airbus (AIR.PA) A320-family aircraft previously leased by Thomas Cook and deploy them at its Austrian carrier Lauda."


And thus FR goes one step closer from being an exclusive Boeing customer to being a carrier which has also Airbus in its fleet. Excellent move imho.


Laudamotion (the full FR subsidiary) already has around 21 A320s, thus a few more will not make a difference. Thus FR isn't more exclusive Boeing as it is with these A320s.


I think you're missing the point slightly. The Laudamotion planes/crew are taking over some flying that would otherwise have been done by Ryanair.

PixelFlight wrote:
kayik wrote:
not missed


keesje wrote:
Yes. I see this artcle was re posted twice over the last 2 days and ignored, overwritten, drowned in various related topics under the generalized "Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019" header.

Image
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-pushed-faa-to-arelax-737-max-certification-requirements-for-crew-alerts/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=article_inset_1.1

If it is only half truth, a can of worms was just openend & many are in denial / be quiet hopefully it goes away mode. Including me.. luckely it's the last post of the page, many will miss it again..

Not great for the PAX seeking safest flights on that aircraft, at least at this state of improvement...
Next time a 737-8/9 MAX will experience an incident involving the alert system, all the medias will immediately remember this and make there big titles with it.

And this is why all the posturing about how the MAX will be "the safest aircraft in history, post-grounding" is such nonsense. Unless the aircraft returns to service with compulsory upgrades such as a proper EICAS, emergency slides on the wings etc then the MAX will still be inherently less safe than aircraft that do have such systems.

sgrow787 wrote:
AABusDrvr wrote:
sgrow787 wrote:

I was hoping for a photo of an actual cockpit, not from a manual. Also, you didn't state which plane it's from.


That picture is a MAX, the NG is a similar message, but I’m not sure exactly where on the tube it displays.


Again, a photo of a cockpit.


What's wrong with the graphic that AABusDrvr provided?
First to fly the 787-9
 
JAAlbert
Posts: 1955
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:47 pm

Revelation wrote:
keesje wrote:
In a cockpit full of (in)correct vocal alerts, warning lights, single points of failure, refusing trim wheels, stall rumbling sticks that can't be stopped, a pilot theoretically could have saved the aircraft. So we can try focussing on training to handle, trouble shoot, pull circuit breakers by the pilots. In the seconds they have. Or conclude it's a bad cockpit. Certainly if requirements were customized for it by the builder itself.

Interestingly enough, you, I and morrisond are saying the same thing.

The flight before JT610 shows the exact same plane could be saved by pilot actions.

Both Boeing and FAA have confirmed that MCAS 1.0 put too much workload on the pilot.

Given the cockpit is the pilot's user interface, it is fair to say a bad cockpit put too much workload on the pilot.

FAA gave Boeing exemptions based on similarity to NG, but MCAS made MAX quite different from NG.

Once MAX is fixed chances are good that it will be safer than NG since the two FCC outputs will be compared, something NG does not do.


Nice summation of the big picture problems that caused these crashes. What I don't understand is how you managed to sum all this up without including the traditional adjectives, judgments, condemnations and outrage! :D
 
dougbr2006
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:44 pm

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:50 pm

FluidFlow wrote:


Another schedule push same as the others, I don't think they really have an idea as to a return to service date. Probably in November they will push to February if the FAA has not approved the fixes. Some of the standard news sites are badly interpreting this date - I believe.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:07 pm

par13del wrote:
seahawk wrote:
You could fly the MAX without any changes safely today. But that would require crew training for the MCAS and that is something Boeing does not want, as customers do not want any extra training (apart from some ipad hours) when changing from the NG to the MAX.

So to be clear, it is your belief that it is cheaper for Boeing to continue to produce 40+ a/c per month, park them all over the place, pay vendors as normal versus paying for training so that they can start delivering hundreds of 737-MAX a/c?
Ok


The problem is that the crashes uncovered other faults in the system that also need to be addressed and MCAS does not follow current design standards for flight control systems, so today training alone won´t cut it. But imho nobody can deny that the system could have been handled by the crews if provided with training, checklists and full knowledge of the system.
 
DenverTed
Posts: 265
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:22 pm

In terms of critical path, the regulators had six months to come up with what they wanted. There is the possibility that some jurisdictions will take years to come up with a list, or that the list will be cost prohibitive, in which case the MAX will never fly in those places.
 
DenverTed
Posts: 265
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:27 pm

seahawk wrote:
and MCAS does not follow current design standards for flight control systems,

So the fix is not in compliance? Are "design standards" the mandatory rules or optional best practices?
 
Chemist
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:46 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:35 pm

One logical fallacy posted above is that by exempting the MAX from newest alert regulations, the plane will be inherently less safe.

Two points:
1 - Exemption from some newer regulations is what grandfathering is all about. So lots of aircraft are exempt from all sorts of newer regulations. Are you suggesting that we cease producing any aircraft that have not been brought up to all current regulations?

2 - While the examptions MIGHT make the MAX less safe, we can't just say that because we don't know if the new alerting regulations actually produce a safer aircraft. Only actual in-use data would show that. Doesn't the NG have the same alerting system as the MAX, and doesn't it statistically show as safe as the A320, for example?
Last edited by Chemist on Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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seahawk
Posts: 8725
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:36 pm

DenverTed wrote:
seahawk wrote:
and MCAS does not follow current design standards for flight control systems,

So the fix is not in compliance? Are "design standards" the mandatory rules or optional best practices?


Obviously I meant v1.0.
 
B777LRF
Posts: 2490
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:39 pm

Revelation wrote:
Oh, brother...


I appreciate the effort you've taken to dissect my post. I shall not be responding in kind, but would rather we both agree on having different views on the situation. Yours may be perfectly correct, or it may not. Same as mine, and only time shall tell.

Before you ask, I'm not a betting man.
Signature. You just read one.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:40 pm

DenverTed wrote:
In terms of critical path, the regulators had six months to come up with what they wanted. There is the possibility that some jurisdictions will take years to come up with a list, or that the list will be cost prohibitive, in which case the MAX will never fly in those places.


How quickly a regulator can come up with a final to-do list for the OEM depends on how honest the OEM is. If the OEM is completely honest and there are no technical limitations, it can be done quickly, if it is more a trial and error process, in which each of your demands and each test uncovers new problems, it can take a very long time.
 
Chemist
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:46 am

Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:41 pm

seahawk wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
In terms of critical path, the regulators had six months to come up with what they wanted. There is the possibility that some jurisdictions will take years to come up with a list, or that the list will be cost prohibitive, in which case the MAX will never fly in those places.


How quickly a regulator can come up with a final to-do list for the OEM depends on how honest the OEM is. If the OEM is completely honest and there are no technical limitations, it can be done quickly, if it is more a trial and error process, in which each of your demands and each test uncovers new problems, it can take a very long time.


Yes, but we are really all speculating on where reality lies.
 
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PW100
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounded Worldwide Q4 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:28 pm

morrisond wrote:
And once they did that and established that they had valid Airspeed on the Co-pilot side and back-up instrument it was time to fly the plane.

Were they supposed to leave MAX Thrust engaged for the whole flight all the way to touch down or they climbed to the service ceiling of the aircraft?


When they started to fly the airplane (as you call it), they proceeded with aerodynamically cleaning up the airframe (ie retracting flaps and slates - gear was already up).
Three gueses for you what happened next . . . ?

Exactly when they were taking steps and getting back to business as normal, MCAS hit them full in the face, and they never recovered.
When MCAS first activated, airspeed was not a concern. The "pilots did it gang" are very eager to conveniently forget/ommit this tidbit.

Airpseed getting out of control was yet another side effect of workload overload due to cockpit christmass tree, MCAS starting its suicide mission, pilots never been teached about MCAS (what/when why), and MCAS not in any checklist or troubleshooting chart.
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