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ZK-NBT
Posts: 7500
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:51 am

Gasman wrote:
jerseyewr777 wrote:
lessredtape wrote:
DEN has been mentioned many times over past few years. I heard from a contact in Colorado that it was happening a few years back.

Make sense to operate to DEN seasonally in northern winter due to the huge number of Australians/Kiwis skiing in Colorado, as it's now incredibly cheap. Saw family lift tickets 2 weeks ago for AU$50 for 1 adult & 4 kids total.

Sure beats transiting at LAX or changing terminals anywhere else. AKL international to international is so easy. Talk of FJ doing something with their new A350 beyond the west coast USA.


Denver? They can route those passengers through other United hubs. My guess the only North American destination left that they will serve will be YYZ.


I agree. NYC non stop makes a certain amount of sense. The Western seaboard stopover, followed with that last 5 hour flight to NYC is brutal. I'm sure the new non stop service will generate traffic and revenue that wouldn't otherwise exist. And that's not even factoring traffic in from Australia which is bound to be significant.

But if there is a single person right now going "well I *would* go to DEN more if only there was a non stop service" I would be astonished. All a DEN service would do is cannabalise traffic off LAX.


Cannibalising LAX isn’t necessarily a bad thing is it? In terms of LAX it is the biggest market, it will be interesting with LHR going how many flights LAX gets weather it drops down to 1 daily in off peak at least, so transferring East bound traffic away from LAX/SFO.
 
lessredtape
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:41 am

Gasman wrote:
jerseyewr777 wrote:
lessredtape wrote:
DEN has been mentioned many times over past few years. I heard from a contact in Colorado that it was happening a few years back.

Make sense to operate to DEN seasonally in northern winter due to the huge number of Australians/Kiwis skiing in Colorado, as it's now incredibly cheap. Saw family lift tickets 2 weeks ago for AU$50 for 1 adult & 4 kids total.

Sure beats transiting at LAX or changing terminals anywhere else. AKL international to international is so easy. Talk of FJ doing something with their new A350 beyond the west coast USA.


Denver? They can route those passengers through other United hubs. My guess the only North American destination left that they will serve will be YYZ.


I agree. NYC non stop makes a certain amount of sense. The Western seaboard stopover, followed with that last 5 hour flight to NYC is brutal. I'm sure the new non stop service will generate traffic and revenue that wouldn't otherwise exist. And that's not even factoring traffic in from Australia which is bound to be significant.

But if there is a single person right now going "well I *would* go to DEN more if only there was a non stop service" I would be astonished. All a DEN service would do is cannabalise traffic off LAX.
I think you’re looking at DEN the wrong way.

Most Australians appear to fly to DEN via LAX or SFO currently, but negotiating U.S. customs & immigration mid trip can be painful.

Would much rather not have to change terminals like at AKL & then avoid west coast.

If wanted to stop on west coast, could still do that in one direction using LAX, SFO services.
 
Gasman
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:09 am

lessredtape wrote:
Gasman wrote:
jerseyewr777 wrote:

Denver? They can route those passengers through other United hubs. My guess the only North American destination left that they will serve will be YYZ.


I agree. NYC non stop makes a certain amount of sense. The Western seaboard stopover, followed with that last 5 hour flight to NYC is brutal. I'm sure the new non stop service will generate traffic and revenue that wouldn't otherwise exist. And that's not even factoring traffic in from Australia which is bound to be significant.

But if there is a single person right now going "well I *would* go to DEN more if only there was a non stop service" I would be astonished. All a DEN service would do is cannabalise traffic off LAX.
I think you’re looking at DEN the wrong way.

Most Australians appear to fly to DEN via LAX or SFO currently, but negotiating U.S. customs & immigration mid trip can be painful.

Would much rather not have to change terminals like at AKL & then avoid west coast.

If wanted to stop on west coast, could still do that in one direction using LAX, SFO services.


If it's all about drawing feed from Australia, NZ are going to have to up their game in terms of product. QF have a better hard product, arguably a better soft one and a much more generous frequent flier program.
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:21 am

Gasman wrote:
lessredtape wrote:
Gasman wrote:

I agree. NYC non stop makes a certain amount of sense. The Western seaboard stopover, followed with that last 5 hour flight to NYC is brutal. I'm sure the new non stop service will generate traffic and revenue that wouldn't otherwise exist. And that's not even factoring traffic in from Australia which is bound to be significant.

But if there is a single person right now going "well I *would* go to DEN more if only there was a non stop service" I would be astonished. All a DEN service would do is cannabalise traffic off LAX.
I think you’re looking at DEN the wrong way.

Most Australians appear to fly to DEN via LAX or SFO currently, but negotiating U.S. customs & immigration mid trip can be painful.

Would much rather not have to change terminals like at AKL & then avoid west coast.

If wanted to stop on west coast, could still do that in one direction using LAX, SFO services.


If it's all about drawing feed from Australia, NZ are going to have to up their game in terms of product. QF have a better hard product, arguably a better soft one and a much more generous frequent flier program.

QF hard product - J is newer and roomier so better in that regard, bed is still better on NZ.
PE is better on NZ.
Y - pretty much the same seats (although NZ does have sky couch (which if not used is roomier for premium customers), NZ has better IFE. Both have wifi. QF is more generous with luggage allowance.
Soft product - nothing in it, NZ has many excellent crew, some not so great. QF is the same. They do have a bit more in the way of snacks in economy if that floats your boat.
Frequent Flyer program... yes and no. It is more generous if you can get to use it. NZs one is however more useable as you can use it as cash (and part pay too). Can also use it at places like Mitre10 to buy things and the airpoints store. QF probably does a bit better in the lounges for HVC by having separate areas including of course chairman’s lounge.
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
A350OZ
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:11 am

lessredtape wrote:
Gasman wrote:
jerseyewr777 wrote:

Denver? They can route those passengers through other United hubs. My guess the only North American destination left that they will serve will be YYZ.


I agree. NYC non stop makes a certain amount of sense. The Western seaboard stopover, followed with that last 5 hour flight to NYC is brutal. I'm sure the new non stop service will generate traffic and revenue that wouldn't otherwise exist. And that's not even factoring traffic in from Australia which is bound to be significant.

But if there is a single person right now going "well I *would* go to DEN more if only there was a non stop service" I would be astonished. All a DEN service would do is cannabalise traffic off LAX.
I think you’re looking at DEN the wrong way.

Most Australians appear to fly to DEN via LAX or SFO currently, but negotiating U.S. customs & immigration mid trip can be painful.

Would much rather not have to change terminals like at AKL & then avoid west coast.

If wanted to stop on west coast, could still do that in one direction using LAX, SFO services.


I agree with Gasman here, there is nothing in it for NZ to fly to DEN. The local market is too small. If anyone attempts DEN to AKL (or SYD) it will be UA drawing on their large FF base, and redirecting connecting pax away from other ports. But even that is unlikely in my view.
 
A350OZ
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:23 am

Just a prediction/thought/wild guess (I have no involvement with or connections into NZ or anyone else related to this, so take it with a kilo of salt):

Given the news is NZ launching EWR, and Stephen Colbert recently spending 10 days or so in NZ to tape content for his show, and the Prime Minister appearing twice on The Late Show over the past year (and even promoting the launch of NZ flying to ORD the first time around), I have a feeling the next safety video may feature Stephen Colbert and NYC prominently...

Again, just a wild guess.
 
Qantas16
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:38 am

lessredtape wrote:
Qantas16 wrote:
lessredtape wrote:
Specifically looked at Dec 22 BNE/AKL & back 2 weeks later & then 3 days either side of those dates.

Nothing under AU$800 unless willing to fly Xmas Day.

CI was around AU$1200

Seems to be a bit cheaper AKL/BNE/AKL though


Sure, but what are you proposing? They operate BNE-AKL-BNE for 3 weeks over Christmas? If the market was so lucrative at that point, QF/VA/NZ would put a lot more extra capacity on it to absorb it. ON would need to establish contracts with a GHA in AKL and those costs alone would be expensive for such a short period of time.

Nauru aircraft already fly BNE/AKL 4 times a week via VLI. To me it seems the only difference flying direct BNE/AKL would be that it's not a lease to NF. Maybe I'm missing something ?


There is a big difference between ON aircraft being used as a wet lease on BNE-VLI-AKL runs and ON launching their own BNE-AKL flights. ON would also have zero brand recognition in AKL and their brand recognition in BNE would be only slightly better. Either way, no one would think to look to ON to book BNE-AKL. Also, they don't have the reservation/ticketing arrangements in place to make the route successful.
 
Ishrion
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:50 pm

American Airlines relaunched LAX-AKL last night for the season...

...and announced DFW-AKL and LAX-CHC.
 
bevan7
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:33 pm

Ishrion wrote:
American Airlines relaunched LAX-AKL last night for the season...

...and announced DFW-AKL and LAX-CHC.


Lol. I posted this a couple of hours ago but it appears to be deleted. Guess the mods don't think a new airline flying a new unserved route into New Zealand is anything to do with New Zealand aviation.
 
NZ321
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:34 pm

But this is a joke .There is no year round service in the offing. So what gives? How does this help Oneworld fliers in NZ? It doesn't! There is clearly another perspective to be had on this, but t escapes me and in the meantime NZ / UA continues to rule, plane and simple. AA/QF will need to lift their game and take the plunge with year round if they are to pick up local customer loyalty. I think this is a minimal and somewhat disappointing offering, frankly, and one which redeploys aircraft which are needed for peak time summer flying in the Northern Hemisphere Summer and are underutilized during the southern hemisphere summer. But it doesn't really cut the mustard does it when it comes to real competition?
Plane mad!
 
Gasman
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:44 pm

Ishrion wrote:
American Airlines relaunched LAX-AKL last night for the season


I'm on it next week. It'll be the 5th time I've used the service and I've always found it a perfectly competent operation - certainly no worse than NZ. But yes, completely agree that it's hard to take seriously when it's so seasonal.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:53 pm

NZ321 wrote:
But this is a joke .There is no year round service in the offing. So what gives? How does this help Oneworld fliers in NZ? It doesn't! There is clearly another perspective to be had on this, but t escapes me and in the meantime NZ / UA continues to rule, plane and simple. AA/QF will need to lift their game and take the plunge with year round if they are to pick up local customer loyalty. I think this is a minimal and somewhat disappointing offering, frankly, and one which redeploys aircraft which are needed for peak time summer flying in the Northern Hemisphere Summer and are underutilized during the southern hemisphere summer. But it doesn't really cut the mustard does it when it comes to real competition?


Is this a case of, if they did nothing we'd ask for seasonal, they do seasonal we ask for year-round?

It kind of highlights how important (or critical) the inbound market is. The American tourist is what AA is targeting and there is a huge drop off during our winter.

I'm ecstatic by the news. It wasn't so long ago, the USA consisted of LAX and SFO with YVR and HNL tagging along for the ride. Now we've got DFW, IAH, ORD, EWR, LAX and SFO and we might as well still include HNL and YVR in there too
 
YYZORD
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:09 pm

A350OZ wrote:
lessredtape wrote:
Gasman wrote:

I agree. NYC non stop makes a certain amount of sense. The Western seaboard stopover, followed with that last 5 hour flight to NYC is brutal. I'm sure the new non stop service will generate traffic and revenue that wouldn't otherwise exist. And that's not even factoring traffic in from Australia which is bound to be significant.

But if there is a single person right now going "well I *would* go to DEN more if only there was a non stop service" I would be astonished. All a DEN service would do is cannabalise traffic off LAX.
I think you’re looking at DEN the wrong way.

Most Australians appear to fly to DEN via LAX or SFO currently, but negotiating U.S. customs & immigration mid trip can be painful.

Would much rather not have to change terminals like at AKL & then avoid west coast.

If wanted to stop on west coast, could still do that in one direction using LAX, SFO services.


I agree with Gasman here, there is nothing in it for NZ to fly to DEN. The local market is too small. If anyone attempts DEN to AKL (or SYD) it will be UA drawing on their large FF base, and redirecting connecting pax away from other ports. But even that is unlikely in my view.


I totally agree, YYZ is way more likely than DEN. When NZ added ORD, I knew YYZ was bound to happen someday along with either EWR or JFK. Also AC is trying to do a JV with NZ similar to the one UA has so it only makes sense for NZ to add YYZ and not let YVR be the sole AC hub that NZ serves.
 
Gasman
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:01 pm

YYZORD wrote:
A350OZ wrote:
lessredtape wrote:
I think you’re looking at DEN the wrong way.

Most Australians appear to fly to DEN via LAX or SFO currently, but negotiating U.S. customs & immigration mid trip can be painful.

Would much rather not have to change terminals like at AKL & then avoid west coast.

If wanted to stop on west coast, could still do that in one direction using LAX, SFO services.


I agree with Gasman here, there is nothing in it for NZ to fly to DEN. The local market is too small. If anyone attempts DEN to AKL (or SYD) it will be UA drawing on their large FF base, and redirecting connecting pax away from other ports. But even that is unlikely in my view.


I totally agree, YYZ is way more likely than DEN. When NZ added ORD, I knew YYZ was bound to happen someday along with either EWR or JFK. Also AC is trying to do a JV with NZ similar to the one UA has so it only makes sense for NZ to add YYZ and not let YVR be the sole AC hub that NZ serves.


YYZ would open up huge options - not the least of which is seamless transfers to YUL and Quebec. I love Toronto as a city and while demand will be lower than that of NYC; you can make similar logistical and passenger convenience arguments for a non stop service.
 
777ER
Head Moderator
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:09 pm

bevan7 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
American Airlines relaunched LAX-AKL last night for the season...

...and announced DFW-AKL and LAX-CHC.


Lol. I posted this a couple of hours ago but it appears to be deleted. Guess the mods don't think a new airline flying a new unserved route into New Zealand is anything to do with New Zealand aviation.

I've gone through this entire thread and the deletion records for the last 24 hours and there hasn't been any deletion of your posts.

Regards

777ER
Head Forum Moderator
Head Forum Moderator
[email protected]
Flown: 1900D,S340,Q300,AT72-5/6,DC3,CR2/7,E145,E70/75/90,A319/20/21,A332/3,A359,A380,F100,B717,B733/4/8/9,B742/4,B752/3,B763,B772/3, B789
With: NZ,SJ,QF,JQ,EK,VA,AA,UA,DL,FL,AC,FJ,SQ,TG,PR
 
777ER
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:16 pm

A350OZ wrote:
Just a prediction/thought/wild guess (I have no involvement with or connections into NZ or anyone else related to this, so take it with a kilo of salt):

Given the news is NZ launching EWR, and Stephen Colbert recently spending 10 days or so in NZ to tape content for his show, and the Prime Minister appearing twice on The Late Show over the past year (and even promoting the launch of NZ flying to ORD the first time around), I have a feeling the next safety video may feature Stephen Colbert and NYC prominently...

Again, just a wild guess.

Those shows provide New Zealand (and even NZ to an extent) with exposure that money can't buy. When previous Prime Ministers and even famous people have appeared on shows like the Ellen Show, tourism/interest stats have shown a spike.

Yes Jacinda appearing on the show and picking him up from the airport has created pathetic bagging, BUT the exposure we get as a country to several million people for free is incredible. The publicity is way better then the dildo man (Steven Joyce) exposure.
Head Forum Moderator
[email protected]
Flown: 1900D,S340,Q300,AT72-5/6,DC3,CR2/7,E145,E70/75/90,A319/20/21,A332/3,A359,A380,F100,B717,B733/4/8/9,B742/4,B752/3,B763,B772/3, B789
With: NZ,SJ,QF,JQ,EK,VA,AA,UA,DL,FL,AC,FJ,SQ,TG,PR
 
bevan7
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:53 pm

777ER wrote:
bevan7 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
American Airlines relaunched LAX-AKL last night for the season...

...and announced DFW-AKL and LAX-CHC.


Lol. I posted this a couple of hours ago but it appears to be deleted. Guess the mods don't think a new airline flying a new unserved route into New Zealand is anything to do with New Zealand aviation.

I've gone through this entire thread and the deletion records for the last 24 hours and there hasn't been any deletion of your posts.

Regards

777ER
Head Forum Moderator

Ah ok. Thanks for checking. Weird because I definitely posted it. Even had a link to an article about it. Good to see it wasn't intentionally deleted though :-)
 
nascarnut
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:07 am

Have to wonder if UA will consider DEN-AKL now. That would only leave IAD as the only UA hub without non-stop service to the Southpac.

As for NZ going to EWR, makes sense. If they can get into Terminal C at EWR, they will be able to connect with just about every major city in Europe via UA with passengers staying in same terminal. Offer one stop service to approx 25 cities in Europe, similar to EK via DXB. Depending on arrival time, UA has flights departing from EWR from 1700-2300 to Europe including 1800/1900/2000/2100 and 2200 to LHR
EWR is becoming a Star Alliance fortress with most major European members offering service from EWR.

JFK is more of a terminal point unless you want the hassle of connecting via different terminals.

The monorail from EWR to NJ/Penn Station then subway across to Manhattan is quicker than JFK and for the rich, helicopter transfer is also avail from Terminal C
 
NZ516
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:00 am

AIR NEW ZEALAND ADDING EXTRA REGIONAL FLIGHTS FOLLOWING JETSTAR’S WITHDRAWAL

Air New Zealand says it will operate extra flights in December 2019 on five regional routes that Jetstar is withdrawing from at the end of November.

The airline said on Thursday it had scheduled an additional 253 flights throughout the month of December on Auckland-Napier, Auckland-Nelson, Auckland-New Plymouth and Auckland-Palmerston North, as well as between Wellington and Nelson.

Air New Zealand chief revenue officer Cam Wallace said the 253 flights represented about 15,000 extra seats on the routes affected by Jetstar’s withdrawal that was first announced in late September.

Air New Zealand’s extra regional services

Route Seats Number of extra flights
Auckland – Napier 3,120 48
Auckland – New Plymouth 2,404 38
Auckland – Nelson 3,940 59
Auckland – Palmerston North 3,120 48
Wellington – Nelson 3,072 60
Total 15,656 253
Source: Air New Zealand


Air NZ to the rescue. This is very good news for the cities which now have a lot more seats to replace the loss of Jetstar. With Nelson getting the most with a combined 4012 extra seats that is huge!
 
lessredtape
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:45 am

Qantas16 wrote:
lessredtape wrote:
Qantas16 wrote:

Sure, but what are you proposing? They operate BNE-AKL-BNE for 3 weeks over Christmas? If the market was so lucrative at that point, QF/VA/NZ would put a lot more extra capacity on it to absorb it. ON would need to establish contracts with a GHA in AKL and those costs alone would be expensive for such a short period of time.

Nauru aircraft already fly BNE/AKL 4 times a week via VLI. To me it seems the only difference flying direct BNE/AKL would be that it's not a lease to NF. Maybe I'm missing something ?


There is a big difference between ON aircraft being used as a wet lease on BNE-VLI-AKL runs and ON launching their own BNE-AKL flights. ON would also have zero brand recognition in AKL and their brand recognition in BNE would be only slightly better. Either way, no one would think to look to ON to book BNE-AKL. Also, they don't have the reservation/ticketing arrangements in place to make the route successful.


I imagine a huge % of bookings OZ/NZ are done online, unlike long haul.

Wouldn't be hard to undercut CI fares or any peak season fares, so yes it would have to be price driven.

Think anyone can book ON online, so ticketing not an issue, but they might need representation in NZ or an 0800 phone number which is answered somewhere, not necessarily in NZ. Phoned a Australian transfer company & it was answered in Philippines. If a relatively small transfer company thinks that saves them money, god help any phone res in OZ/NZ.
 
ZKOJH
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:24 am

Now that AA have gone on the attack with the New Zeland market - seems NZ might be fighting an uphill struggle - wonder if the 2nd LAX flight will now go ? its a shame that they don't consider extend their SFO / LAX to MAN at least some jobs could be saved with closing LHR. The new CEO hasn't even sat in his new chair and he will be facing some new pressure going forward into 2020.
Air New Zealand ~ dreams of flying
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7500
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:53 am

ZKOJH wrote:
Now that AA have gone on the attack with the New Zeland market - seems NZ might be fighting an uphill struggle - wonder if the 2nd LAX flight will now go ? its a shame that they don't consider extend their SFO / LAX to MAN at least some jobs could be saved with closing LHR. The new CEO hasn't even sat in his new chair and he will be facing some new pressure going forward into 2020.


I wouldn’t be surprised if the second LAX flight goes anyway, maybe operate it seasonally 3-4 weekly? I’d see UA on SFO-CHC for one replacing some AKL capacity.

What would extending to MAN do? Other than save some jobs, the aircraft can be used more profitably elsewhere.
 
NZ6
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:04 am

ZKOJH wrote:
Now that AA have gone on the attack with the New Zeland market - seems NZ might be fighting an uphill struggle - wonder if the 2nd LAX flight will now go ? its a shame that they don't consider extend their SFO / LAX to MAN at least some jobs could be saved with closing LHR. The new CEO hasn't even sat in his new chair and he will be facing some new pressure going forward into 2020.


I wouldn't call 2 seasonal flights going on the attack but anyway.

LAX-CHC will most likely annoy NZ slightly, but if they wanted to, they could also operate it?! As for DFW-AKL, I believe it will attract new customers and/or AA customers, likely those who may have visited via Australia or make NZ and/or AU part of their trip down under where they may not have otherwise. It's great for the winder tourism industry in New Zealand.

Extending flights beyond the "pacific rim" (one stop from NZ, not a geographical line) is a movement NZ has moved away, put simply customers don't pay double to get there but NZ has double the operating costs. It's much cheaper to pay a fixed price and send them onwards via an interline partner.

QF/AA entering the NZ-USA market is not and should not be a surprise to anyone let alone airline executives. QF flew it before, AA flies here now and these two carriers doing something more under an approved alliance has been the most obvious impact to NZ.

Bottom line is, there are literally tens of millions of Americans who have a desire to travel here, there's no shortage of customers the trick is making it convenient & affordable so they do.

I'm looking forward to some aggressive pricing :crossfingers:
 
NZ321
Posts: 1216
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:44 am

NZ6 wrote:
ZKOJH wrote:
Now that AA have gone on the attack with the New Zeland market - seems NZ might be fighting an uphill struggle - wonder if the 2nd LAX flight will now go ? its a shame that they don't consider extend their SFO / LAX to MAN at least some jobs could be saved with closing LHR. The new CEO hasn't even sat in his new chair and he will be facing some new pressure going forward into 2020.


I wouldn't call 2 seasonal flights going on the attack but anyway.

LAX-CHC will most likely annoy NZ slightly, but if they wanted to, they could also operate it?! As for DFW-AKL, I believe it will attract new customers and/or AA customers, likely those who may have visited via Australia or make NZ and/or AU part of their trip down under where they may not have otherwise. It's great for the winder tourism industry in New Zealand.

Extending flights beyond the "pacific rim" (one stop from NZ, not a geographical line) is a movement NZ has moved away, put simply customers don't pay double to get there but NZ has double the operating costs. It's much cheaper to pay a fixed price and send them onwards via an interline partner.

QF/AA entering the NZ-USA market is not and should not be a surprise to anyone let alone airline executives. QF flew it before, AA flies here now and these two carriers doing something more under an approved alliance has been the most obvious impact to NZ.

Bottom line is, there are literally tens of millions of Americans who have a desire to travel here, there's no shortage of customers the trick is making it convenient & affordable so they do.

I'm looking forward to some aggressive pricing :crossfingers:


Agree fully with the above.
Plane mad!
 
zkncj
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:48 am

What is up with the Tasman operations tonight? It seems that every flight ex-BNE tonight was 30min-60minutes late?

It’s it purely Tasman turn times are to tight these days, and can’t handle knock of effects on the last services of the day?

Seems to be come an common trend recently.
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2788
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:06 pm

Let's hope there is some aggressive pricing.

Just came back to New Zealand for the first time this year. Good god this place has got expensive! Throw in the extra $45pp the government now charges for the eTA - expect a reciprocal response by other countries by the way - and wow, you gotta wonder why a North American family of four would bother with the slog down here.
 
aerokiwi
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:10 pm

777ER wrote:
A350OZ wrote:
Just a prediction/thought/wild guess (I have no involvement with or connections into NZ or anyone else related to this, so take it with a kilo of salt):

Given the news is NZ launching EWR, and Stephen Colbert recently spending 10 days or so in NZ to tape content for his show, and the Prime Minister appearing twice on The Late Show over the past year (and even promoting the launch of NZ flying to ORD the first time around), I have a feeling the next safety video may feature Stephen Colbert and NYC prominently...

Again, just a wild guess.

Those shows provide New Zealand (and even NZ to an extent) with exposure that money can't buy. When previous Prime Ministers and even famous people have appeared on shows like the Ellen Show, tourism/interest stats have shown a spike.

Yes Jacinda appearing on the show and picking him up from the airport has created pathetic bagging, BUT the exposure we get as a country to several million people for free is incredible. The publicity is way better then the dildo man (Steven Joyce) exposure.


John Key got bagged endlessly for his appearances. I recall it being "cringeworthy" and "desperate". Funny how that all changes with her blessedness.

And let's not overstate things here. We're mostly being laughed at. And the government just imposed a massive new tax on arrivals, on top of all the other taxes already imposed. Come to New Zealand, we cry. Then make them pay through the nose. Yeah.... real consistent.
 
NZ516
Posts: 450
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:45 pm

Now that London is going. The next one to get the chop could be the NZ18 AKL RAR LAX flight for the same reasons an expensive 5th freedom flight to operate. Doesn't make enough money to cover the huge running costs of it. There will be 4 sets of crew for the return flight, extra landing fees, plus the long turn around all add up. Plus the potential to operate two AKL to XXX returns in the same time slot for the frame so much more revenue. Will have to be a negotiation withdrawal with the Cook Islands government when the agreement is to finish.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1595
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:47 pm

aerokiwi wrote:
Let's hope there is some aggressive pricing.

Just came back to New Zealand for the first time this year. Good god this place has got expensive!


Sure is!


aerokiwi wrote:
and wow, you gotta wonder why a North American family of four would bother with the slog down here.


Not surprisingly then, this group is one of the smallest to travel here.

You see a lot more retiree couples doing their 'trip of a lifetime' 'down under' and also those mature adults who've got children 18+ who choose not to tag along. Then, of course, you've got your young independent traveller 18-25 - might do a working holiday or ski for the winter but without mum and dad of course!

Not to say the American family doesn't or won't come here, but they're more likely to head to Hawaii, the Carribean or Mexico for the week's vacation.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1595
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:48 pm

NZ516 wrote:
Now that London is going. The next one to get the chop could be the NZ18 AKL RAR LAX flight for the same reasons an expensive 5th freedom flight to operate. Doesn't make enough money to cover the huge running costs of it. There will be 4 sets of crew for the return flight, extra landing fees, plus the long turn around all add up. Plus the potential to operate two AKL to XXX returns in the same time slot for the frame so much more revenue. Will have to be a negotiation withdrawal with the Cook Islands government when the agreement is to finish.


Are you aware it's subsidised? The airline is essentially contracted to fly it otherwise it would have gone in the early 2000's even in the 1990's?
 
NZ516
Posts: 450
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:51 pm

Yes I knew it has a subsidy but to the break even level only.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1595
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:58 pm

NZ516 wrote:
Yes I knew it has a subsidy but to the break even level only.


Is that how it works?
 
NZ516
Posts: 450
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:04 pm

Well that is what I read on here a few months ago. Is it not correct then?
 
User avatar
aerorobnz
Posts: 8346
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:11 pm

aerokiwi wrote:
Let's hope there is some aggressive pricing.

Just came back to New Zealand for the first time this year. Good god this place has got expensive! Throw in the extra $45pp the government now charges for the eTA - expect a reciprocal response by other countries by the way - and wow, you gotta wonder why a North American family of four would bother with the slog down here.

Agree totally..It all adds on top of the perception of the great New Zealand rip off. $9pp for an ETA is not bad (and consistent with US and Canada) but the $35 tax for entry is ludicrous. It will have a negative impact for all of us if we end up with fees like this in reciprocity when we travel. They have no answer to anything except raise taxes across the board and make life difficult for the middle class (and now they are inflicting this ideology on tourists). They evidently don't want millions of prosperous, independent individuals who enjoy traveling to enrich their lives they just want boutique tourism for the uber rich which is a smaller slice of pie. Numbers dependent Infrastructure will never get built now, because it will eventually stymie tourism growth and therefore economic growth.

Ask yourself, out of North America, who is competing with N.Z? The answer is everywhere with nonstop flight options.
If it pushes us down the priority order for Americans to use their annual leave on it is a loss for the country, if they come once and don't return because they find it a rip off it is a loss for this country because travel is discussed by friends and colleagues and negative perceptions spread faster than positive ones. If an airline can't fill LAX-CHC or EWR-AKL because of these visa costs and lack of hotel infrastructure, it is putting the route at risk

The peak prices for US/Canada Y class may well just plateau at say $2k instead of 2.5k but if they aren't year round they won't be at a time of year with lots of available seats (and therefore low prices). If loads don't fill it may happen, but as AA/AC are seasonal, if they don't work out they will likely reduce frequency until they improve or are ultimately cut, and NZ will also just cut flights to boost load factor and yield. The real possibility for lower fares will be Business and premium economy IMO as there will be a glut of premium seats vs demand.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1595
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:29 pm

NZ516 wrote:
Well that is what I read on here a few months ago. Is it not correct then?


There are several ways it could be done, 3 for starters are

a) Cook Islands fit the gap to make it profitable (break-even line)
b) Cook Islands pay a flat rate and the airline operates the service which could be profitable or unprofitable
c) Cook Islands pay X amount for each seat in the market

It's all pretty confidential and the way the airline reports data you'll never really know. I'm also constantly hearing or reading conflicting reports. I know for a fact when the 767 retired and the 777 was put into the route the Cook Islands were most upset and a bit of tension was created as a result.

However, I do agree with your original post. I think the airline would be better off sending the frame into another market which would be more profitable than be doing RAR-LAX-RAR regardless of how it's all agreed upon.
 
axio
Posts: 270
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:44 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:36 pm

aerorobnz wrote:
aerokiwi wrote:
Let's hope there is some aggressive pricing.

Just came back to New Zealand for the first time this year. Good god this place has got expensive! Throw in the extra $45pp the government now charges for the eTA - expect a reciprocal response by other countries by the way - and wow, you gotta wonder why a North American family of four would bother with the slog down here.

Agree totally..It all adds on top of the perception of the great New Zealand rip off. $9pp for an ETA is not bad (and consistent with US and Canada) but the $35 tax for entry is ludicrous. It will have a negative impact for all of us if we end up with fees like this in reciprocity when we travel. They have no answer to anything except raise taxes across the board and make life difficult for the middle class (and now they are inflicting this ideology on tourists). They evidently don't want millions of prosperous, independent individuals who enjoy traveling to enrich their lives they just want boutique tourism for the uber rich which is a smaller slice of pie. Numbers dependent Infrastructure will never get built now, because it will eventually stymie tourism growth and therefore economic growth.

Going to play devil's advocate, more for the sake of it than because I believe it....

Having been to parts of Europe, the numbers of tourists thoroughly detract from the experience. It's difficult to appreciate and contemplate say the great art works when you're being jostled around in a horde. Given NZ's appeal as a big-outdoors, 100% pure/natural i.e. non-human stuff experience, more tourists means less 'experience'. Using an economic disincentive to maintain tourist numbers at a level which doesn't disrupt the experience is a reasonable solution. Is the end result that the less affluent are less likely to go to NZ? Yes, and that is disappointing, but would also be the natural outcome of a market system. For instance, accommodation around ZQN is limited as there isn't heaps of good space for hotels, and scarce supply plus more demand means higher prices, so it's the same net result.
Time for a new viewing deck at AKL!
 
User avatar
aerorobnz
Posts: 8346
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:57 pm

My problem is why charge people an additional tax just for entering the country?? That is like building a wall around the outside.
They should issue access permits in more limited number per day like the Inca Trail, Angkor Wat or Gorilla Trekking in Rwanda. It should be user pays on the individual attractions and tourist sites that get affected by volume like Milford Sound, the various tracks and Queenstown. The point is that people come here for all sorts of reasons, and if they are staying with family they are not impacting so why should they pay the $35pp?? If they are having a driving holiday around the North Island or a 3-4 day city stopover on their way through to Australia they are for the most part having very little impact unless they visit the affected localities, if they do, they should pay, like you would a toll road in Europe. It is possible to navigate a journey without toll roads but when you want to use it you pay for it.
Rental car pickups and Hotels in ZQN can easily have resort fees applied like the strip in LAS and paid locally. Of course if you stay in LAS away from the Strip the fees don't apply and the same should be true here. The choice should be the customer's on whether to avail the high demand facilities or not. And of course you are still entitled to visit the Strip even if you don't stay and the same should be true for the equivalent localities here.. Personally when I travel I pick and choose what is important to me. I only visit what interests me. Sometimes that means I have an expensive few days with touristy attractions and other times I just enjoy being in a different country.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
NZ516
Posts: 450
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:50 pm

Nelson Airport's new terminal officially opens

The boss of Nelson Airport says its new $32 million terminal means it can continue to grow aviation in the region.

The entire redevelopment goes live on Tuesday, but officially opens on Saturday.

Robert Evans says it's state-of-the art, with local timber, and replaces the 45-year-old building.

"It certainly served its time, and we really were needing to build not only to catch up with recent growth in the last few years, but also for the next 20 or 30 years."

The new terminal is 40 percent bigger than the old one, and will be able to handle up to 1.4 million passengers, the expected number passing through in 2035.


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/travel/2 ... opens.html

Looks impressive really like the timber. Great asset to the city of Nelson and good that they expect passengers to continue to climb in the years ahead.
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 3584
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Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:10 pm

I know it has its own thread (with Air New Zealand's announcing of Newark)...but Newark (NJ, USA) to Auckland is about 7665 nmi. The advertised range of the B789 is 7635 nmi with 290 passengersR, J30Y260. Also consider that this flight will (if using the 1 FA to 50 passengers rule; I'm not sure what the New Zealand rule is) require 12 FAs and 4 pilots (2 complete crews) at minimum...how many seats in economy would need to be blocked? (I would expect the final row at minimum---seats 59A/B/C/H/J/K and 61 D/E/F, or for some of the potential Economy Skycouch seats to be sold only as a package.)

In fact, YYZ-AKL is actually shorter than EWR-AKL.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1595
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:53 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I know it has its own thread (with Air New Zealand's announcing of Newark)...but Newark (NJ, USA) to Auckland is about 7665 nmi. The advertised range of the B789 is 7635 nmi with 290 passengersR, J30Y260. Also consider that this flight will (if using the 1 FA to 50 passengers rule; I'm not sure what the New Zealand rule is) require 12 FAs and 4 pilots (2 complete crews) at minimum...how many seats in economy would need to be blocked? (I would expect the final row at minimum---seats 59A/B/C/H/J/K and 61 D/E/F, or for some of the potential Economy Skycouch seats to be sold only as a package.)

In fact, YYZ-AKL is actually shorter than EWR-AKL.


Just as a fyi - physical seat numbers don't get blocked as such, well, not for the reasons stated above.

- There are seat masks which control what seats are available for selection. An HVC member will see a different mask to a pleb like myself. So the last row may be blocked on all masks for operational reasons but not usually because of the need to restrict sales.
- To control sales restrictions, the airline has a CAP and AUTH levels. So the CAP in Y class is 215 with the AUTH could be 190. Likewise, on the Tasman, you will have CAP 215 but with an AUTH of maybe 225 as it will have oversell built into it. When the AUTH level at 190 is reached, people can only waitlist for the flight. If it was free seating and everyone showed up, you'd have 25 seats empty once everyone was on board as you didn't ever sell the last 25 seats.

Skycouch does impact AUTH levels.

These numbers are purely made up.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12968
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:52 am

NZ516 wrote:
Nelson Airport's new terminal officially opens

The boss of Nelson Airport says its new $32 million terminal means it can continue to grow aviation in the region.

The entire redevelopment goes live on Tuesday, but officially opens on Saturday.

Robert Evans says it's state-of-the art, with local timber, and replaces the 45-year-old building.

"It certainly served its time, and we really were needing to build not only to catch up with recent growth in the last few years, but also for the next 20 or 30 years."

The new terminal is 40 percent bigger than the old one, and will be able to handle up to 1.4 million passengers, the expected number passing through in 2035.


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/travel/2 ... opens.html

Looks impressive really like the timber. Great asset to the city of Nelson and good that they expect passengers to continue to climb in the years ahead.


It looks very Norwegian to me, it could easily be a small Norwegian city/town airport. I like it a lot!
 
zkncj
Posts: 3872
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:25 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I know it has its own thread (with Air New Zealand's announcing of Newark)...but Newark (NJ, USA) to Auckland is about 7665 nmi. The advertised range of the B789 is 7635 nmi with 290 passengersR, J30Y260. Also consider that this flight will (if using the 1 FA to 50 passengers rule; I'm not sure what the New Zealand rule is) require 12 FAs and 4 pilots (2 complete crews) at minimum...how many seats in economy would need to be blocked? (I would expect the final row at minimum---seats 59A/B/C/H/J/K and 61 D/E/F, or for some of the potential Economy Skycouch seats to be sold only as a package.)

In fact, YYZ-AKL is actually shorter than EWR-AKL.


It’s always an possibility the code 2 789 have there PE cabin increase, both EWR and ORD are operated by this configuration and surely PE will be in demand on AKL-EWR.
 
xiaotung
Posts: 1075
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:58 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:42 am

Ishrion wrote:
American Airlines relaunched LAX-AKL last night for the season...

...and announced DFW-AKL and LAX-CHC.


So AA/QF alliance is eating into NZ's profits while NZ is getting cozy with QF across the Tasman. How would this work? I hope one day common sense will prevail and NZ get back with VA which is best for the consumers.
 
PA515
Posts: 1606
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:17 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:46 am

Air NZ's 25th ATR 72-600 ZK-MZB (msn 1578) F-WWEL appears to have just had it's acceptance flight, so delivery is close.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/f-wwel

PA515
 
wave46
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:02 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:41 pm

aerorobnz wrote:
My problem is why charge people an additional tax just for entering the country?? That is like building a wall around the outside.
They should issue access permits in more limited number per day like the Inca Trail, Angkor Wat or Gorilla Trekking in Rwanda. It should be user pays on the individual attractions and tourist sites that get affected by volume like Milford Sound, the various tracks and Queenstown. The point is that people come here for all sorts of reasons, and if they are staying with family they are not impacting so why should they pay the $35pp?? If they are having a driving holiday around the North Island or a 3-4 day city stopover on their way through to Australia they are for the most part having very little impact unless they visit the affected localities, if they do, they should pay, like you would a toll road in Europe. It is possible to navigate a journey without toll roads but when you want to use it you pay for it.
Rental car pickups and Hotels in ZQN can easily have resort fees applied like the strip in LAS and paid locally. Of course if you stay in LAS away from the Strip the fees don't apply and the same should be true here. The choice should be the customer's on whether to avail the high demand facilities or not. And of course you are still entitled to visit the Strip even if you don't stay and the same should be true for the equivalent localities here.. Personally when I travel I pick and choose what is important to me. I only visit what interests me. Sometimes that means I have an expensive few days with touristy attractions and other times I just enjoy being in a different country.


As a traveler from North America (who is coming to NZ soonish!), I'm not terribly worried about the $35 fee. Relative to the cost of the flight, it is peanuts. Better to collect it from someone like myself than having a domestic New Zealander subsidize my vacation.

If $70 (or heck, $140 for a family of 4) is a deal-breaker for a vacation, NZ is the wrong choice for them. That's not a knock against NZ, that's just travelling in first world countries in general - they're expensive. IMO it's a small price to pay for the ability to go to a country where I can wander to my heart's content safely.
 
wave46
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:02 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:44 pm

Related question for NZ people: On my return flight, I have to connect in Auckland from a domestic Air New Zealand flight to an international one. The itinerary I've booked shows a 1:20 connection time. Will this be adequate?

I know there is separate domestic and international terminals, so I'm wondering about the process to go between them.

Thanks for the replies.
 
Motorhussy
Posts: 3673
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:30 pm

wave46 wrote:
Related question for NZ people: On my return flight, I have to connect in Auckland from a domestic Air New Zealand flight to an international one. The itinerary I've booked shows a 1:20 connection time. Will this be adequate?

I know there is separate domestic and international terminals, so I'm wondering about the process to go between them.

Thanks for the replies.


Yes this is enough time. However, this is provided you’re checked in and through at your domestic port for your international departure.
come visit the south pacific
 
DavidJ08
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:18 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:47 pm

wave46 wrote:
I know there is separate domestic and international terminals, so I'm wondering about the process to go between them.

There is a free terminal transfer bus you can take from outside domestic; alternatively it's advertised as a 10-min walk following a reasonably well-marked walkway.
 
bevan7
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:44 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:17 pm

DavidJ08 wrote:
wave46 wrote:
I know there is separate domestic and international terminals, so I'm wondering about the process to go between them.

There is a free terminal transfer bus you can take from outside domestic; alternatively it's advertised as a 10-min walk following a reasonably well-marked walkway.

AS long as it's not raining the walk is just as quick (if not quicker than the bus). It's only 10 minutes if you're walking really slow.
 
zkeoj
Posts: 1227
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:00 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - October 2019

Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:11 pm

wave46 wrote:
aerorobnz wrote:
My problem is why charge people an additional tax just for entering the country?? That is like building a wall around the outside.
They should issue access permits in more limited number per day like the Inca Trail, Angkor Wat or Gorilla Trekking in Rwanda. It should be user pays on the individual attractions and tourist sites that get affected by volume like Milford Sound, the various tracks and Queenstown. The point is that people come here for all sorts of reasons, and if they are staying with family they are not impacting so why should they pay the $35pp?? If they are having a driving holiday around the North Island or a 3-4 day city stopover on their way through to Australia they are for the most part having very little impact unless they visit the affected localities, if they do, they should pay, like you would a toll road in Europe. It is possible to navigate a journey without toll roads but when you want to use it you pay for it.
Rental car pickups and Hotels in ZQN can easily have resort fees applied like the strip in LAS and paid locally. Of course if you stay in LAS away from the Strip the fees don't apply and the same should be true here. The choice should be the customer's on whether to avail the high demand facilities or not. And of course you are still entitled to visit the Strip even if you don't stay and the same should be true for the equivalent localities here.. Personally when I travel I pick and choose what is important to me. I only visit what interests me. Sometimes that means I have an expensive few days with touristy attractions and other times I just enjoy being in a different country.


As a traveler from North America (who is coming to NZ soonish!), I'm not terribly worried about the $35 fee. Relative to the cost of the flight, it is peanuts. Better to collect it from someone like myself than having a domestic New Zealander subsidize my vacation.

If $70 (or heck, $140 for a family of 4) is a deal-breaker for a vacation, NZ is the wrong choice for them. That's not a knock against NZ, that's just travelling in first world countries in general - they're expensive. IMO it's a small price to pay for the ability to go to a country where I can wander to my heart's content safely.



I totally agree. Plus, don't forget that every traveller to NZ gets free accident insurance (i.e. ACC), which is insane! For NZers and permanent residents here it is a great thing, but why would people in NZ pay for international tourists' accident insurance?
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