Australian Aviation Thread - October 2019

brucetiki · Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:23 am

Rex have introduced their community fare for ADL-PLO flights - $109 each way

https://www.portlincolntimes.com.au/sto ... d/?cs=1500

ben175 · Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:30 am

Boof wrote:
Seems like JQ announced flights from MEL to BQB today. I recall a whisper about this a few months ago on this forum so good to see it has happened.

https://www.jetstar.com/au/en/deals/mel ... aret-river

Absolutely amazing news! This will help the Southwest so much. I am a firm believer that this area of WA has some of the most beautiful beaches (Eagle Bay, Castle Rock, Yallingup) and towns in the entire country - places like Byron, Port Douglas etc just don't compare and it will be great to see more East coast visitors in the region.

QF742 · Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:26 am

ben175 wrote:
Boof wrote:
Seems like JQ announced flights from MEL to BQB today. I recall a whisper about this a few months ago on this forum so good to see it has happened.

https://www.jetstar.com/au/en/deals/mel ... aret-river

Absolutely amazing news! This will help the Southwest so much. I am a firm believer that this area of WA has some of the most beautiful beaches (Eagle Bay, Castle Rock, Yallingup) and towns in the entire country - places like Byron, Port Douglas etc just don't compare and it will be great to see more East coast visitors in the region.

I completely agree. I’ll definitely be using this flight!

a320fan · Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:57 am

Boof wrote:
Seems like JQ announced flights from MEL to BQB today. I recall a whisper about this a few months ago on this forum so good to see it has happened.

https://www.jetstar.com/au/en/deals/mel ... aret-river

Great to see new domestic routes spring up!

SYDSpotter · Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:46 am

kriskim wrote:

Apparently Nepal Airlines was/is looking at SYD.

Considering SYD is one thing, making it actually happen is another...

Nepal Airlines is in no position to operate flights to SYD, it is a poorly run airline which is surviving on government handouts. Operating a 10 hr flight with demand which is seasonal at best is a sure handed way of throwing money down the drain.

It does have 2 leased A332's which could operate the route, but they even stuffed the procurement of the A332's with there apparently being lots of corruption and middlemen involved.

It's also on the EU blacklist so I'm sure CASA would think twice before allowing the route.

qf2220 · Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:50 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
qf2220 wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Not that any airline will be lining up for this but Australia and Nepal have signed an air services agreement

https://blueswandaily.com/nepal-and-aus ... agreement/

It is interesting where a an Australian carrier ticketed codeshare is not possible. I flew to VTE a few years ago but couldn't on a QF ticket. Had to have separate QF and QV tickets with a long layover in BKK.

Id say this ASA is about reducing a similar gap for Nepali codeshares to happen now. Perhaps via HKG or BKK with RA?

Qantas have fares loaded to VTE interlining onto both PG and QV via BKK. Not QF code, but definitely bookable on one ticket with the interline carriers code.

This is new as in 2012 they didn't. I spoke to the reps on the phone and they said there was nothing they could do to hep me get there on their tickets.

RyanairGuru · Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:16 am

qf2220 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
qf2220 wrote:

It is interesting where a an Australian carrier ticketed codeshare is not possible. I flew to VTE a few years ago but couldn't on a QF ticket. Had to have separate QF and QV tickets with a long layover in BKK.

Id say this ASA is about reducing a similar gap for Nepali codeshares to happen now. Perhaps via HKG or BKK with RA?

Qantas have fares loaded to VTE interlining onto both PG and QV via BKK. Not QF code, but definitely bookable on one ticket with the interline carriers code.

This is new as in 2012 they didn't. I spoke to the reps on the phone and they said there was nothing they could do to hep me get there on their tickets.

Fair enough, I can't disagree with that! I can only say back to 2015-ish.

Apologies if I came over as argumentative as that was not my intention, I was more pointing to the current state.

eta unknown · Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:26 am

a19901213 wrote:
NH focuses on Japan side feed of traffic. Australia is literally OW territory but if VA to be granted a slot then they’ll have the ability to fly to 3 biggest cities from HND. If we include PER then all of the sudden they fly to 4 biggest cities in Australia.

As I said before business demand is huge between Japan and Australia and continue to grow. I know for a fact that lots of corporate travellers they come in and leave the country from different cities. The ability to appeal its fast access to HND and from there fly to 3 different cities is HUGE.

NH needs VA just as much VA needs NH. This will give them the edge over OW in this market.

NH's problems in Australia are self inflicted. Firstly instead of hiring their own sales staff, they appointed a GSA- and not one of the better ones- and some of these staff really ought not to be there. Secondly, Australia reports to NH's SIN office, not TYO, and their SIN office is staffed by some very young expats who lack experience. Putting these two groups of people together isn't good. Thirdly, the premium economy product is inferior to JAL's (as is the food as already mentioned). Fourthly, SYD can't get access to decent fares to GMP, so they sometimes play in the trash Europe yield market. And finally, there is a complete lack of supply and demand knowledge with their fare filing- they have sale fares on flights that are already 75% full three months out just because QF (which flies an aircraft with more than twice as many seats to fill) has a sale.

SCFlyer · Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:43 am

Seems VA and NH have quietly extended their interline arrangement. Some searches on VA's website and third party sites are now showing interline AU-Japan fares via HKG (ex-SYD/MEL).

RyanairGuru · Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:01 am

eta unknown wrote:
a19901213 wrote:
NH focuses on Japan side feed of traffic. Australia is literally OW territory but if VA to be granted a slot then they’ll have the ability to fly to 3 biggest cities from HND. If we include PER then all of the sudden they fly to 4 biggest cities in Australia.

As I said before business demand is huge between Japan and Australia and continue to grow. I know for a fact that lots of corporate travellers they come in and leave the country from different cities. The ability to appeal its fast access to HND and from there fly to 3 different cities is HUGE.

NH needs VA just as much VA needs NH. This will give them the edge over OW in this market.

NH's problems in Australia are self inflicted. Firstly instead of hiring their own sales staff, they appointed a GSA- and not one of the better ones- and some of these staff really ought not to be there. Secondly, Australia reports to NH's SIN office, not TYO, and their SIN office is staffed by some very young expats who lack experience. Putting these two groups of people together isn't good. Thirdly, the premium economy product is inferior to JAL's (as is the food as already mentioned). Fourthly, SYD can't get access to decent fares to GMP, so they sometimes play in the trash Europe yield market. And finally, there is a complete lack of supply and demand knowledge with their fare filing- they have sale fares on flights that are already 75% full three months out just because QF (which flies an aircraft with more than twice as many seats to fill) has a sale.

Re fares I totally agree. NH are totally schizophrenic in terms of their fares, with no rhyme or reason to them. They'll have the highest published fares in low season and then out of nowhere have a sale for dates including school holidays?!

But I didn't realise their sales staff were employed through a GSA. Interesting. When I was a travel agent our BDM only represented ANA, not a plethora of carriers, so I would have assumed they were directly employed.

Actually on that I remember before they launched SYD it wasn't possible to issue 205 ticket stock in Australia (or at least the company I worked for couldn't). We had to issue ANA to Hahn/169. For a major international carrier that always struck me as incredibly shortsighted even if they didn't fly their own metal here.

RyanairGuru · Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:05 am

Talking of sale fares loaded over peak travel season, thanks to VA I am flying CBR-BNE on 23 Dec for $179 and then over Easter flying CBR-BNE-CBR on Good Friday and returning on the Monday public holiday for $159 each way. In both cases they were cheaper than Tiger. Given the year-round is over $200 each way it seems rediculous to offer a sale over Christmas/Easter!

qf002 · Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:11 am

Everybody has left Canberra long before the 23rd, and I daresay a search for Thursday-Tuesday around Easter would yield quite different results.

RyanairGuru · Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:25 am

qf002 wrote:
Everybody has left Canberra long before the 23rd, and I daresay a search for Thursday-Tuesday around Easter would yield quite different results.

OK so the 23rd is Sunday, but Saturday was the same price. Friday night was admittedly more. Friday morning to Monday evening over Easter will no doubt be completely full in both directions as it maximises time away without taking annual leave, even if Thursday/Tuesday are also busy.

My point is that Qantas were basically twice to price in both cases, and as I said Tiger was also more expensive. Either those carriers are over-pricing their product or VA had terrible yield management. I lean towards the latter.

Of course I would expect flights to Canberra to be completely empty, but with people leaving it is an easy time to make money.

81819 · Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:24 pm

Sydscott wrote:
DeltaB717 wrote:
I think it's important for people to understand (and I have said this before) that the new HND capacity has come as absolutely no surprise to QF, VA or any of the relevant airport operators (no doubt tourism bodies and state government departments, too). Airline operators routinely participate in ASA and capacity negotiations - physically at the table with the government reps from both sides - and are therefore aware to an extent what each other's intentions are. I know for a fact both QF and VA were actively involved in and present at the HND negotiations, and I would hazard a guess that NH and JL were too. JQ is, of course, represented by QF. I have also personally been in meetings where one operators intentions for Japan were alluded to off-hand, and nobody in that room batted an eyelid - that was in September this year, indeed on the day the IASC first invited applications for this capacity.

The one thing I do find humorous, and somewhat ironic, is the ACCC Letter which is in favour of a Virgin allocation.

https://www.iasc.gov.au/applications/fi ... r_2019.pdf

"Flights between Australia and Japan: Virgin Australia’s application would enable it to commence operations between Australia and Japan, introducing a fourth airline to the route."

That is a tremendously factually incorrect statement. Virgin Australia could commence operations at any time, right now absent HND slots.

I also enjoy the somewhat irony in:

"The ACCC considers that allocating one frequency to each of Virgin Australia and Qantas would facilitate greater competition between Virgin Australia and Qantas, and other foreign carriers, on routes between Australia and Japan (including Brisbane and Tokyo). Virgin Australia does not currently operate flights to Japan in its own right, so Virgin Australia commencing flights on any route to Japan would naturally enable it to be a more effective competitor than at present."

Note the part at the end "Virgin Australia commencing flights on any route to Japan would naturally enable it to be a more effective competitor". Well der!! Kinda stating the obvious but to me if Virgin were to start BNE-NRT against QF's already BNE-NRT isn't competition satisfied against this ACCC criteria?

Overall I'm sure the ACCC submission is trying to tell the IASC to give Virgin a slot but this is probably one of the worst IASC submissions I've seen the ACCC do. Also highlights why they normally take so long to get things done as well if this is the best they can come up with in 5 days.

Anyway, with 1 slot each I suppose we will soon learn about the codeshare arrangement Virgin and NH intend to enter into. That'll be interesting in and of itself given the Commissions bias against free sale codeshares or, indeed, if they go for a Joint Business rather than codeshare arrangement.

At the end of the day the ACCC submission is only going to be one piece of a very complex puzzle. From what I am reading the ACCC are solely sending a message about competition. The message makes no reference to sustainability or viability.

On the flip side VA's investors are probably shaking in their boots. Statements to the effect that competition between four instead of three carriers would probably result in reduced pricing, increased levels of service wouldn't go down to well with their long suffering VA investors who have had similar messages over the last ten years.

four carriers, ike anywhere in their

eta unknown · Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:52 pm

I'm absolutely convinced some people have recently joined this forum to stir up trouble with wild accusations and opinions that they try (very, very badly) to present as facts. The good news is, the foe button can be your friend.

Captdasbomb · Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:58 pm

Ruscoe wrote:
Air Transport world are quoting the Chief Technical Pilot of Qantas on various Project Sunrise matters.
The one that caught my eye is that the proposed LHR to Sydney information gathering flight with a 789 delivery is expected to burn 85T of fuel with 55 pax. New York to Sydney is considered the most challenging route because at this time of year, headwinds can average up to 30knots.
Also that PER-LHR has a 92 to 94% load factor and has not had a single diversion.
Ruscoe

They are usually 1st to land at Heathrow every day so there is minimal chance of diversion unless there's bad weather. Would have thought they would fill it to the max like they did with OJA?

getluv · Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:42 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
getluv wrote:

Point of comparison, JL's relationship with QF is also largely interline based and their flight to MEL doesn't connect to any QF flight. Additionally, JL only codeshare on a handful of QF domestic/New Zealand flights out of SYD.

It absolutely does, at least from Japanese POS, and that's why both JAL and ANA are excellent (although flown both I prefer ANA by a far margin).

And let's be honest, JAL has been flying to SYD for 30 years when ANA has what, 2? 3? And MEL flight has a tiny seat count to fill (comparable with QF's 738....)

If you try buying ANA tickets ex-MEL/BNE/ADL the selection is severely limited, which will most likely have an impact on customer preference.

Although I tend to agree with an earlier statement that JAL might be better in Y due to wider seats and more proper food (ANA's SYD service is based on their SE Asia flight standard, which means reduced catering for overnights).

Michael

But doesn't NH have a superior Japanese POS network that it should easily be able to fill a 789.

And you do realise it is not possible to do a same day connection onto JL's SYD-NRT flight from BNE/MEL/ADL, with the only exception being connecting from QF400 (not even a codeshare flight) during Daylight Saving. JL don't even sell and publish ex-New Zealand fares on its website. JL have upgauged MEL-NRT to a 789 as well.

I have also read JL had all sorts of restrictions placed on them regarding expansions after their Government bailed them out and is the reason why the Japanese Government has preferenced NH over JL with regards to HND slots.

eta unknown · Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:08 pm

getluv wrote:
But doesn't NH have a superior Japanese POS network that it should easily be able to fill a 789.

And you do realise it is not possible to do a same day connection onto JL's SYD-NRT flight from BNE/MEL/ADL, with the only exception being connecting from QF400 (not even a codeshare flight) during Daylight Saving. JL don't even sell and publish ex-New Zealand fares on its website. JL have upgauged MEL-NRT to a 789 as well.

I have also read JL had all sorts of restrictions placed on them regarding expansions after their Government bailed them out and is the reason why the Japanese Government has preferenced NH over JL with regards to HND slots.

Correct about the restrictions, but that is now over so NH no longer has automatic preference (JAL bailout condition). To be honest, Australia-Japan (and vv) demand is strong and the planes JL/NH send to SYD/MEL are premium heavy and there is enough SYD only demand to not warrant the Australian domestic connections on JAL. ADL connecting pax connect over the MEL flight while BNE sort of gets sacrificed, although I think JAL has some connections via HKG using CX.

A350OZ · Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:52 pm

eta unknown wrote:
getluv wrote:
But doesn't NH have a superior Japanese POS network that it should easily be able to fill a 789.

And you do realise it is not possible to do a same day connection onto JL's SYD-NRT flight from BNE/MEL/ADL, with the only exception being connecting from QF400 (not even a codeshare flight) during Daylight Saving. JL don't even sell and publish ex-New Zealand fares on its website. JL have upgauged MEL-NRT to a 789 as well.

I have also read JL had all sorts of restrictions placed on them regarding expansions after their Government bailed them out and is the reason why the Japanese Government has preferenced NH over JL with regards to HND slots.

Correct about the restrictions, but that is now over so NH no longer has automatic preference (JAL bailout condition). To be honest, Australia-Japan (and vv) demand is strong and the planes JL/NH send to SYD/MEL are premium heavy and there is enough SYD only demand to not warrant the Australian domestic connections on JAL. ADL connecting pax connect over the MEL flight while BNE sort of gets sacrificed, although I think JAL has some connections via HKG using CX.

Re premium-heavy, they have changed the MEL plane to a 2-class now though (ie sans-PE), which is quite annoying.

F100Flyer · Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:46 am

TG looks set to revert to 788 from A333 on BKK-PER whilst retaining its split daily schedule from 29th March 2020. A shame because the J product on their A333 is excellent.

Qantas16 · Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:52 pm

eta unknown wrote:
getluv wrote:
But doesn't NH have a superior Japanese POS network that it should easily be able to fill a 789.

And you do realise it is not possible to do a same day connection onto JL's SYD-NRT flight from BNE/MEL/ADL, with the only exception being connecting from QF400 (not even a codeshare flight) during Daylight Saving. JL don't even sell and publish ex-New Zealand fares on its website. JL have upgauged MEL-NRT to a 789 as well.

I have also read JL had all sorts of restrictions placed on them regarding expansions after their Government bailed them out and is the reason why the Japanese Government has preferenced NH over JL with regards to HND slots.

Correct about the restrictions, but that is now over so NH no longer has automatic preference (JAL bailout condition). To be honest, Australia-Japan (and vv) demand is strong and the planes JL/NH send to SYD/MEL are premium heavy and there is enough SYD only demand to not warrant the Australian domestic connections on JAL. ADL connecting pax connect over the MEL flight while BNE sort of gets sacrificed, although I think JAL has some connections via HKG using CX.

And, last time I checked, JL codeshare on QF's BNE-SIN flight

SYDSpotter · Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:51 pm

F100Flyer wrote:
TG looks set to revert to 788 from A333 on BKK-PER whilst retaining its split daily schedule from 29th March 2020. A shame because the J product on their A333 is excellent.

Still better than the J product on the 744 which SYD gets.

Again, just another anomaly on TG's suite of products where the 788 product is very different to the 789.

qf789 · Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:27 am

Qantas 789 VH-ZNI taxi test and first flight, named Kookaburra (3 Oct)

ZNJ rolled out of final assembly on 1 Oct

ZNK due to be loaded for final assembly in the coming days

https://twitter.com/JenSchuld/status/11 ... 78784?s=20

qf789 · Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:34 am

The second SilkAir 737MAX8 positioned to ASP yesterday

https://twitter.com/AirportWebcams/stat ... 31874?s=20

qf789 · Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:44 am

MU schedule for PER-PVG trial flights

MU265 PVG0020 – 0950PER 332 135
MU266 PER1150 – 2110PVG 332 135

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-in-1q20/

waoz1 · Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:06 am

qf789 wrote:
MU schedule for PER-PVG trial flights

MU265 PVG0020 – 0950PER 332 135
MU266 PER1150 – 2110PVG 332 135

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-in-1q20/

Can a five week trail actually show anything? Just seems such a small period of time

ZK-NBT · Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:21 am

waoz1 wrote:
qf789 wrote:
MU schedule for PER-PVG trial flights

MU265 PVG0020 – 0950PER 332 135
MU266 PER1150 – 2110PVG 332 135

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-in-1q20/

Can a five week trail actually show anything? Just seems such a small period of time

CNY, they can hopefully atleast full planes then, maybe see how this goes this year and then hopefully look to expand on it in future.

mh124 · Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:35 am

TasFlyer wrote:

Yes, the makeup of International flights will be interesting.

The first two minutes of the local news has an article on the Hobart City Deal, with Federal Minister Alan Tudge flying to HBA today and announcing that International services will commence by the end of next year.

Also, another free article on the new owners' plans for HBA, which include more than doubling the terminal space and launching International services by next year, is available at: https://www.infrastructureinvestor.com/qic-royal-schiphol-take-70-stake-hobart-airport/

Does this mean that the fed govt going to subsidize the flights?
I mean, putting in a customs facility doesn't mean flights will start.
It reminds me a little Tony Abbotts announcement years ago - about the runway length extension. The eventual length had to be wound back a little when there wasn't any definite international interest.

Ryanair01 · Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:51 am

eta unknown wrote:
a19901213 wrote:
NH focuses on Japan side feed of traffic. Australia is literally OW territory but if VA to be granted a slot then they’ll have the ability to fly to 3 biggest cities from HND. If we include PER then all of the sudden they fly to 4 biggest cities in Australia.

As I said before business demand is huge between Japan and Australia and continue to grow. I know for a fact that lots of corporate travellers they come in and leave the country from different cities. The ability to appeal its fast access to HND and from there fly to 3 different cities is HUGE.

NH needs VA just as much VA needs NH. This will give them the edge over OW in this market.

NH's problems in Australia are self inflicted. Firstly instead of hiring their own sales staff, they appointed a GSA- and not one of the better ones- and some of these staff really ought not to be there. Secondly, Australia reports to NH's SIN office, not TYO, and their SIN office is staffed by some very young expats who lack experience. Putting these two groups of people together isn't good. Thirdly, the premium economy product is inferior to JAL's (as is the food as already mentioned). Fourthly, SYD can't get access to decent fares to GMP, so they sometimes play in the trash Europe yield market. And finally, there is a complete lack of supply and demand knowledge with their fare filing- they have sale fares on flights that are already 75% full three months out just because QF (which flies an aircraft with more than twice as many seats to fill) has a sale.

That's all true. But broadly ANA's approach has been to fill the aircraft from their home market (where they're very strong) and to sell overseas at a discount or via Star partners without investing in local (overseas) market presence. Without a Star partner here it's not a surprise to see ANA take this approach. It's hard to see how ANA could justify much of a local presence with a low proportion of seats to fill locally, aboard daily only flights, with low capacity 787 aircraft, on few routes. Once upon a time maybe, but I think those days of aviation are long gone.

waoz1 · Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:56 am

Ryanair01 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
a19901213 wrote:
NH focuses on Japan side feed of traffic. Australia is literally OW territory but if VA to be granted a slot then they’ll have the ability to fly to 3 biggest cities from HND. If we include PER then all of the sudden they fly to 4 biggest cities in Australia.

As I said before business demand is huge between Japan and Australia and continue to grow. I know for a fact that lots of corporate travellers they come in and leave the country from different cities. The ability to appeal its fast access to HND and from there fly to 3 different cities is HUGE.

NH needs VA just as much VA needs NH. This will give them the edge over OW in this market.

NH's problems in Australia are self inflicted. Firstly instead of hiring their own sales staff, they appointed a GSA- and not one of the better ones- and some of these staff really ought not to be there. Secondly, Australia reports to NH's SIN office, not TYO, and their SIN office is staffed by some very young expats who lack experience. Putting these two groups of people together isn't good. Thirdly, the premium economy product is inferior to JAL's (as is the food as already mentioned). Fourthly, SYD can't get access to decent fares to GMP, so they sometimes play in the trash Europe yield market. And finally, there is a complete lack of supply and demand knowledge with their fare filing- they have sale fares on flights that are already 75% full three months out just because QF (which flies an aircraft with more than twice as many seats to fill) has a sale.

That's all true. But broadly ANA's approach has been to fill the aircraft from their home market (where they're very strong) and to sell overseas at a discount or via Star partners without investing in local (overseas) market presence. Without a Star partner here it's not a surprise to see ANA take this approach. It's hard to see how ANA could justify much of a local presence with a low proportion of seats to fill locally, aboard daily only flights, with low capacity 787 aircraft, on few routes. Once upon a time maybe, but I think those days of aviation are long gone.

On friday the WA tourism minister spoke about ANA out if Perth, as he was selling the new service. He commented that currently around 51% of passengers are ex Perth.

eamondzhang · Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:33 pm

getluv wrote:
And you do realise it is not possible to do a same day connection onto JL's SYD-NRT flight from BNE/MEL/ADL, with the only exception being connecting from QF400 (not even a codeshare flight) during Daylight Saving. JL don't even sell and publish ex-New Zealand fares on its website.

They created their own misery by placing JL772 departing at 8:30am or something like that.... And they have MEL-NRT to fill the role if SYD can't be connected same-day.

getluv wrote:
JL have upgauged MEL-NRT to a 789 as well.

Not in 75% of the year. Only seasonal upgauge during peak (Dec/Jan/Jul). It's a 788 right now.

getluv wrote:
I have also read JL had all sorts of restrictions placed on them regarding expansions after their Government bailed them out and is the reason why the Japanese Government has preferenced NH over JL with regards to HND slots.

They do, but traditionally it's JAL who has been in the international market, NH has only been granted international rights for 34 years instead of JAL who has been flying for some 60 years.

Ryanair01 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
NH's problems in Australia are self inflicted. Firstly instead of hiring their own sales staff, they appointed a GSA- and not one of the better ones- and some of these staff really ought not to be there. Secondly, Australia reports to NH's SIN office, not TYO, and their SIN office is staffed by some very young expats who lack experience. Putting these two groups of people together isn't good. Thirdly, the premium economy product is inferior to JAL's (as is the food as already mentioned). Fourthly, SYD can't get access to decent fares to GMP, so they sometimes play in the trash Europe yield market. And finally, there is a complete lack of supply and demand knowledge with their fare filing- they have sale fares on flights that are already 75% full three months out just because QF (which flies an aircraft with more than twice as many seats to fill) has a sale.

That's all true. But broadly ANA's approach has been to fill the aircraft from their home market (where they're very strong) and to sell overseas at a discount or via Star partners without investing in local (overseas) market presence. Without a Star partner here it's not a surprise to see ANA take this approach. It's hard to see how ANA could justify much of a local presence with a low proportion of seats to fill locally, aboard daily only flights, with low capacity 787 aircraft, on few routes. Once upon a time maybe, but I think those days of aviation are long gone.

These two posts are pretty much spot on, and that's a traditional Japanese company is like - not willing to change unless being pushed to. NH heavily relies on its JV partners for its flights to Europe and North America (UA and LH respectively), or focus a lot on its local market when the market size is big enough (Asian flights). Selling overseas has been a weakness for NH for ages, and I still see that going on.

One could argue that it's the result of their 30-plus years of domestic-only operations, but they've been flying internationally for 34 years and still having the same issue, which I can only assume that it's a Japanese company thing.

Michael

EK413 · Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:52 am

I probably stand to be corrected but didn’t NH operated seasonal services to SYD early 2000? From what I remember they utilised a B744 on the route?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jupiter2 · Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:11 am

EK413 wrote:
I probably stand to be corrected but didn’t NH operated seasonal services to SYD early 2000? From what I remember they utilised a B744 on the route?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

NH started with 742's, then went to 763's, not sure but they may have been some 744's in there as well. They would've operated some charters during the Olympics with the 744's as well.

Tabito · Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:49 am

jupiter2 wrote:
EK413 wrote:
I probably stand to be corrected but didn’t NH operated seasonal services to SYD early 2000? From what I remember they utilised a B744 on the route?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

NH started with 742's, then went to 763's, not sure but they may have been some 744's in there as well. They would've operated some charters during the Olympics with the 744's as well.

NH inaugurated Australian service as NRT-SYD on 26 Oct 1987 with 747-200.
NRT-BNE-SYD-NRT began from 1 Nov 1994 with 747-200.
KIX-BNE-SYD-KIX from 31 Oct 1994 with 767-300.
KIX flights changed to code share with Ansett 747-300 operation from 28 Mar 1999 until 12 Sep 2001.
Ended NH own service to Australia on 27 Jun 1998.
As far as I remember, last NRT-BNE-SYD-NRT flight was 747-200.

eta unknown · Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:55 am

eamondzhang wrote:
These two posts are pretty much spot on, and that's a traditional Japanese company is like - not willing to change unless being pushed to. NH heavily relies on its JV partners for its flights to Europe and North America (UA and LH respectively), or focus a lot on its local market when the market size is big enough (Asian flights). Selling overseas has been a weakness for NH for ages, and I still see that going on.

One could argue that it's the result of their 30-plus years of domestic-only operations, but they've been flying internationally for 34 years and still having the same issue, which I can only assume that it's a Japanese company thing.

Michael

Very true. The only reasons the SYD flight does well are (a) the 787 is extremely cheap to operate and (b) the demand ex Japan is so strong. As one person involved in the SYD operation told me, "they don't know what the hell they're doing". It's very much a top down organisation and TYO/SIN offices dont want to listen to local input. Then you have these crazy fares that make no sense. FYI the GSA sales staff only work on the NH account, but everything (office rent, salaries) is recharged back to NH so the whole set up is extremely weird.

Back in the 90's NH flew 742's NRT-SYD-NRT and 763's KIX-BNE-SYD-KIX, The 763 was then replaced with buying about 75% of the seats on AN's 743/744 flights before NH left the Australian market- the revenue just wasn't good enough to warrant a precious NRT slot.

keithball288 · Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:33 am

Ok guys i am so confused. Any one got any ideas what is going on at sydney airport it seems all arrivals are going in a holding pattarn. At the moment go on flight raderm24 and have a look

SCFlyer · Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:04 am

eta unknown wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
These two posts are pretty much spot on, and that's a traditional Japanese company is like - not willing to change unless being pushed to. NH heavily relies on its JV partners for its flights to Europe and North America (UA and LH respectively), or focus a lot on its local market when the market size is big enough (Asian flights). Selling overseas has been a weakness for NH for ages, and I still see that going on.

One could argue that it's the result of their 30-plus years of domestic-only operations, but they've been flying internationally for 34 years and still having the same issue, which I can only assume that it's a Japanese company thing.

Michael

Very true. The only reasons the SYD flight does well are (a) the 787 is extremely cheap to operate and (b) the demand ex Japan is so strong. As one person involved in the SYD operation told me, "they don't know what the hell they're doing". It's very much a top down organisation and TYO/SIN offices dont want to listen to local input. Then you have these crazy fares that make no sense. FYI the GSA sales staff only work on the NH account, but everything (office rent, salaries) is recharged back to NH so the whole set up is extremely weird.

Back in the 90's NH flew 742's NRT-SYD-NRT and 763's KIX-BNE-SYD-KIX, The 763 was then replaced with buying about 75% of the seats on AN's 743/744 flights before NH left the Australian market- the revenue just wasn't good enough to warrant a precious NRT slot.

If I recall, NH initially bought 175 seats per daily flight on the AN flights, increasing to 210 (about 50% of AN's 743/744 capacity) per this IASC submission which is still posted online.

https://www.iasc.gov.au/determinations_ ... ec9902.pdf

getluv · Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:58 am

[quote="eamondzhang”]
They created their own misery by placing JL772 departing at 8:30am or something like that.... And they have MEL-NRT to fill the role if SYD can't be connected same-day.
[/quote]
We’ve established that NH is performing poorly compared to JL as the BITRE numbers clearly demonstrate, despite NH apparently having the superior POS network compared to JL. JL are able to fill their planes quite easily despite their interesting flight times (KE also has this issue) and flying out of NRT instead of HND.

Connecting into MEL is not a substitute especially if you have onwards connections domestically because you’ll be sitting at MEL overnight. If you’re originating out of ADL, I think you have many a few one stop options to consider.

[quote="eamondzhang”] Not in 75% of the year. Only seasonal upgauge during peak (Dec/Jan/Jul). It's a 788 right now.[/quote]
NH operate bigger aircraft than 789, yet after quite a few years in the market and the fact it has one HND slot, has not been able to grow.

JL is also risk averse following their bankruptcy. They’ve hardly grown.

[quote="eamondzhang”]
They do, but traditionally it's JAL who has been in the international market, NH has only been granted international rights for 34 years instead of JAL who has been flying for some 60 years.[/quote]
Clearly there’s more money to be made domestically in Japan than Internationally. The Japanese and Australian markets are very similar in that respect, the airlines all depend on their domestic flights for their profits. NH is the QF of the Japanese market.

eta unknown · Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:31 am

A lot of it simply comes down to JAL having competent local staff and letting them have some decision making input. They also carry more transit traffic which helps in the off seasons.

flyinghighboy · Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:03 pm

Qatar 777 still stuck in CBR, never left on Sunday for the return service to SYD/DOH.

You can see it on the Canberra Airport webcam.

https://www.canberraairport.com.au/flights/flightcam/

qf789 · Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:29 pm

Alan Joyce says there is no immediate plan to add extra legroom in economy option on its aircraft but could be considered in its future domestic fleet.

First research flight with 789 will be from JFK in the next couple of weeks

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/qan ... y-options/

qf789 · Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:39 pm

China Eastern SYD/MEL changes for NW19/20

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... t-changes/

Malindo to use 738 on KUL-DPS-SYD from 27 Oct 19 replacing previously filed 739

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-04oct19/

Fiji Airways moves forward A359 service to SYD to 3 Dec 19 (initially weekly, moving to daily from 1 Jan 20

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -dec-2019/

QF742 · Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:42 am

The Victorian Government (Dept of Jobs, Precincts and Regions) has made a submission to the IASC in support of QF’s application for both slots on the HND route.

https://www.iasc.gov.au/applications/index.aspx#Jap1

a19901213 · Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:33 am

eta unknown wrote:
A lot of it simply comes down to JAL having competent local staff and letting them have some decision making input. They also carry more transit traffic which helps in the off seasons.

This is spot on.

JAL has always been putting lots of effort in taking care of ex Australia market and Japanese community living in Australia.

My work and personal life is surrounded by Japanese and you can easily tell how hard JAL tries to advertise to Japanese community in Australia.

Lots of my friends and colleagues(Japanese)often complain how crazy NH’s price is but they don’t want to fly JAL either because its time arriving in NRT is so inconvenient to transit to other cities in Japan.

qf2220 · Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:48 am

QF742 wrote:
The Victorian Government (Dept of Jobs, Precincts and Regions) has made a submission to the IASC in support of QF’s application for both slots on the HND route.

https://www.iasc.gov.au/applications/index.aspx#Jap1

IMO all of these other submissions are just noise. The VA and QF submissions are the only relevant ones that the IASC will consider given they are addressing the criteria whereas the others are serving their own interest. This includes Mr Adachi's, who we don't know, might be a plant for NH/VA etc.

Though what they do show is that a) HND is worth more than NRT (and perhaps goes to deny the counterfactual that VA could start NRT at any time) and b) quality air services are (perceived) to have a strong role in economic growth.

getluv · Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:34 am

eta unknown wrote:
A lot of it simply comes down to JAL having competent local staff and letting them have some decision making input. They also carry more transit traffic which helps in the
off seasons.

Do you have any figures to back up the transit traffic? Based on the departure and arrival times of their respective services and lack of domestic code sharing with QF, I doubt transit traffic is that pivotal to their services.

eamondzhang · Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:52 am

getluv wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
A lot of it simply comes down to JAL having competent local staff and letting them have some decision making input. They also carry more transit traffic which helps in the
off seasons.

Do you have any figures to back up the transit traffic? Based on the departure and arrival times of their respective services and lack of domestic code sharing with QF, I doubt transit traffic is that pivotal to their services.

I bet he means transit to/from NRT end not here.

Michael

CBRboy · Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:30 am

flyinghighboy wrote:
Qatar 777 still stuck in CBR, never left on Sunday for the return service to SYD/DOH.

You can see it on the Canberra Airport webcam.

https://www.canberraairport.com.au/flights/flightcam/

Yes, I noticed it there late in the afternoon on Sunday and thought that was unusual. Then on Monday morning there were two QR 777s side-by-side at gates, which prompted me to check FlightAware and now FlightRadar24. The one that seems stuck is A7-BER. The return QR907 service to Sydney and on to Doha was cancelled on Sunday.

Anyone know what has happened? Strange to leave it at the gate if they are waiting on engineers or parts? There appears to be a tanker parked under the port wing at the moment.

Crackshot · Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:22 pm

EVA Air's inaugural 78X flight to Brisbane is currently airborne. Aircraft is B-17802. This makes BNE the second Aussie airport to get a scheduled 78X service - behind SQ at Perth. Pretty exciting, I'll be heading down in the morning to watch it come in. Pity the return flight doesn't take off until late at night.

DeltaB717 · Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:29 pm

CBRboy wrote:
flyinghighboy wrote:
Qatar 777 still stuck in CBR, never left on Sunday for the return service to SYD/DOH.

You can see it on the Canberra Airport webcam.

https://www.canberraairport.com.au/flights/flightcam/

Yes, I noticed it there late in the afternoon on Sunday and thought that was unusual. Then on Monday morning there were two QR 777s side-by-side at gates, which prompted me to check FlightAware and now FlightRadar24. The one that seems stuck is A7-BER. The return QR907 service to Sydney and on to Doha was cancelled on Sunday.

Anyone know what has happened? Strange to leave it at the gate if they are waiting on engineers or parts? There appears to be a tanker parked under the port wing at the moment.

I've heard it was a hydraulic failure, and I've heard it was a major electrical fault. The latter I heard from someone who has access to that kind of information, the former I read several times on facebook, so I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions. All I can say is I saw it in the flesh with flaps, spoilers and nose gear doors out, and the flaps remained extended right up until it left. The aircraft was repositioned from Bay 5 to Bay 4 on Sunday evening so that the SQ flight (and subsequent QR flights) could access the terminal. The part arrived yesterday and the aircraft departed shortly before midnight last night nonstop to Doha.

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