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avtcle
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Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:50 pm

Icelandair today announced it would discontinue service to Kansas City and San Francisco for “commercial reasons”.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ns-461180/
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:15 pm

This news is hardly surprising, though it's very sad to see MCI lose its only nonstop service to Europe. Also more bad news for Iceland, which is increasingly less accessible for American tourists...
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chicawgo
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:23 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
This news is hardly surprising, though it's very sad to see MCI lose its only nonstop service to Europe. Also more bad news for Iceland, which is increasingly less accessible for American tourists...


I think it's clear that Iceland was a little too accessible. It's a very small country with very little business travel. They're lucky to have the amazing number of destinations they do have.
 
dc855
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:32 pm

Icelandair is in relative terms probably the hardest hit of all airlines by the MAX grounding. According to their original plans around 25% of their current fleet should at this point be comprised of MAX airplanes. Such as a high loss is certain to have pretty serious consequences. The discontinuations of some services should definitely be viewed through that prism.
 
max999
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:02 pm

dc855 wrote:
Icelandair is in relative terms probably the hardest hit of all airlines by the MAX grounding. According to their original plans around 25% of their current fleet should at this point be comprised of MAX airplanes. Such as a high loss is certain to have pretty serious consequences. The discontinuations of some services should definitely be viewed through that prism.


With the collapse of WOW air, Iceland air should be in expansion mode and capturing new revenue. But instead the Max grounding has stopped all that.

I hope Iceland air is incorporating the revenue loss into its compensation claim against Boeing.
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tkoenig95
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:14 pm

max999 wrote:
dc855 wrote:
Icelandair is in relative terms probably the hardest hit of all airlines by the MAX grounding. According to their original plans around 25% of their current fleet should at this point be comprised of MAX airplanes. Such as a high loss is certain to have pretty serious consequences. The discontinuations of some services should definitely be viewed through that prism.


With the collapse of WOW air, Iceland air should be in expansion mode and capturing new revenue. But instead the Max grounding has stopped all that.

I hope Iceland air is incorporating the revenue loss into its compensation claim against Boeing.

At this point is there much blame to be pointed at the MAX problem with FI? They made a deep round of cuts months ago stating the MAX shortage. This seems like an economic sign of the airline.
 
DDR
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:21 pm

Never understood the MCI service. I love Kansas City, but I just didn't get it.
 
dc855
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:23 pm

tkoenig95 wrote:
max999 wrote:
dc855 wrote:
Icelandair is in relative terms probably the hardest hit of all airlines by the MAX grounding. According to their original plans around 25% of their current fleet should at this point be comprised of MAX airplanes. Such as a high loss is certain to have pretty serious consequences. The discontinuations of some services should definitely be viewed through that prism.


With the collapse of WOW air, Iceland air should be in expansion mode and capturing new revenue. But instead the Max grounding has stopped all that.

I hope Iceland air is incorporating the revenue loss into its compensation claim against Boeing.

At this point is there much blame to be pointed at the MAX problem with FI? They made a deep round of cuts months ago stating the MAX shortage. This seems like an economic sign of the airline.


There are certainly also commercial reasons why these two destinations are specifically chosen. They both seem to be performing relatively poorly and he company has stated that they are currently focusing on pure profitability above anything else. However one would think that Icelandair would be willing to give places like MCI, where they've supposedly gotten a lot of support from local authorites, a longer go if they didn't have to make difficult decisions regarding airplane deployment due to shortage of frames or the high cost or leasing them.
 
KCaviator
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:37 pm

Kansas City literally just finished remodeling and expanding their customs/international arrivals facility in a terminal that’ll be demolished in 5 years.
 
Chasensfo
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:44 pm

Leaving SFO again?! They start up with WOW Air on the route and now cancel it despite being one of the last low fare(though not LCC) European carriers out of SFO with the fall of XL Airways France, Thomas Cook, and WOW Air and having SFO-KEF to themselves? Not even a downgauge to 757s or eventually 737MAX8s(if it is in range)? I know that the Iceland stop-over is popular with young people in the Bay Area who enjoy visiting on their cheap trips to Europe. I wonder if it has anything to do with the crappy ground handlers frequently getting the plane towed on to the gate well past departure time. It is not uncommon for the aircraft to show up even 30 minutes past departure time in the summer when the ground handlers are spread thin and fueled by apathy.

MCI I'm not surprised, but I am honestly surprised to see SFO get cut rather than go seasonal or change equipment. I love the livery on their 767s, I will miss seeing them very much.
Last edited by Chasensfo on Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:46 pm

SFO doesn't surprise me either as that's not within a 1-day rotation...and passengers can be funneled via B6 through BOS.

As for MCI, I do suspect that not knowing when the MAX will fly again is affecting things; FI is currently short about 10 planes, and I suspect that they may seriously consider Airbus products at this point. FI is one of two airlines most affected by the MAX grounding (the other being AC). (In the case of FI, all of their MAX planes that had been delivered so far were leased via sale-leaseback, while all but one of the remaining passenger planes is owned.)
 
flyoregon
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:49 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
SFO doesn't surprise me either as that's not within a 1-day rotation...and passengers can be funneled via B6 through BOS.

As for MCI, I do suspect that not knowing when the MAX will fly again is affecting things; FI is currently short about 10 planes, and I suspect that they may seriously consider Airbus products at this point. FI is one of two airlines most affected by the MAX grounding (the other being AC). (In the case of FI, all of their MAX planes that had been delivered so far were leased via sale-leaseback, while all but one of the remaining passenger planes is owned.)


Can people connect in to FI SEA/PDX on AS?
 
Chasensfo
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:55 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
SFO doesn't surprise me either as that's not within a 1-day rotation...and passengers can be funneled via B6 through BOS.

The B6 flights between SFO-BOS generally have high load factors as is, I'd think it's much more likely that the majority of Europe bound pax looking for a deal end up on other carriers from SFO vs the B6 connection or perhaps via Alaska to PDX/SEA as I've seen the AS logo pop up on the codeshares on the FI departure screens.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:10 am

flyoregon wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
SFO doesn't surprise me either as that's not within a 1-day rotation...and passengers can be funneled via B6 through BOS.

As for MCI, I do suspect that not knowing when the MAX will fly again is affecting things; FI is currently short about 10 planes, and I suspect that they may seriously consider Airbus products at this point. FI is one of two airlines most affected by the MAX grounding (the other being AC). (In the case of FI, all of their MAX planes that had been delivered so far were leased via sale-leaseback, while all but one of the remaining passenger planes is owned.)


Can people connect in to FI SEA/PDX on AS?


It even looks like FI will sell KEF-SEA-SFO as a single fare component.
 
cschleic
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:10 am

flyoregon wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
SFO doesn't surprise me either as that's not within a 1-day rotation...and passengers can be funneled via B6 through BOS.

As for MCI, I do suspect that not knowing when the MAX will fly again is affecting things; FI is currently short about 10 planes, and I suspect that they may seriously consider Airbus products at this point. FI is one of two airlines most affected by the MAX grounding (the other being AC). (In the case of FI, all of their MAX planes that had been delivered so far were leased via sale-leaseback, while all but one of the remaining passenger planes is owned.)


Can people connect in to FI SEA/PDX on AS?


Yes although PDX isn't year-round and doing customs in SEA is a cluster.
 
trexel94
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:38 am

Bummer to hear but not surprised. I believe Kansas City (aside from CLE) was the only market where FI was the sole TATL operator.

However, with FI gone, what are the chances MCI could attract another flight? Say to AMS or LHR? I’m hopeful but not optimistic.
 
kavok
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:46 am

trexel94 wrote:
Bummer to hear but not surprised. I believe Kansas City (aside from CLE) was the only market where FI was the sole TATL operator.

However, with FI gone, what are the chances MCI could attract another flight? Say to AMS or LHR? I’m hopeful but not optimistic.


Both AMS and LHR are slot restricted, which makes those additions more difficult. But with the new terminal, maybe someone can give it a go. Ultimately though, I suspect KC would have to go the PIT/IND route and throw some significant incentives out there to get the route up and running.
 
Jshank83
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:47 am

KCaviator wrote:
Kansas City literally just finished remodeling and expanding their customs/international arrivals facility in a terminal that’ll be demolished in 5 years.


They still have CUN/PUJ flights so it won't go unused. Still interesting they remodeled when it was getting torn down that soon
 
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RWA380
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:47 am

cschleic wrote:
flyoregon wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
SFO doesn't surprise me either as that's not within a 1-day rotation...and passengers can be funneled via B6 through BOS.

As for MCI, I do suspect that not knowing when the MAX will fly again is affecting things; FI is currently short about 10 planes, and I suspect that they may seriously consider Airbus products at this point. FI is one of two airlines most affected by the MAX grounding (the other being AC). (In the case of FI, all of their MAX planes that had been delivered so far were leased via sale-leaseback, while all but one of the remaining passenger planes is owned.)


Can people connect in to FI SEA/PDX on AS?


Yes although PDX isn't year-round and doing customs in SEA is a cluster.


PDX was slated for a year round service for this winter & it was cut for three months now, IIRC. FI stated MAX issues & the aircraft being needed elsewhere & I fully buy that. FI schedules heavy maintenance during the winter months & so a certain number of the 757's were going to be out of service & FI was relying heavily on the MAX's to cover all possible routes.

As far as SFO goes, it is certainly within a single day rotation, it's only on the ground in SFO for 2 hours or so currently. But it requires a 767, KEF-SFO is not doable on the 757 w/o a weight penalty. PDX is the furthest they schedule the 757's regularly.

Oddly FI partners with AS & I would figure that FI flying into SFO would allow connections onwards with AS, but FI also serves SEA (2 x daily in season) & PDX. But given the AS hub at SFO it can also be fed via ORD, PHL, JFK, IAD or BOS.
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FSDan
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:49 am

SurfandSnow wrote:
Also more bad news for Iceland, which is increasingly less accessible for American tourists...


Iceland is still very accessible, IMHO. Besides the nonstops (some seasonal) to ANC, SEA, PDX, DEN, MSP, ORD, TPA, MCO, IAD, PHL, EWR, JFK, and BOS, almost any medium to large market in the U.S. can make a one stop connection via YYZ (AC), SEA (AS/FI), MSP (DL), PHL (AA), EWR (UA), JFK (DL), or BOS (B6+FI).
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Cubsrule
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:06 am

kavok wrote:
trexel94 wrote:
Bummer to hear but not surprised. I believe Kansas City (aside from CLE) was the only market where FI was the sole TATL operator.

However, with FI gone, what are the chances MCI could attract another flight? Say to AMS or LHR? I’m hopeful but not optimistic.


Both AMS and LHR are slot restricted, which makes those additions more difficult. But with the new terminal, maybe someone can give it a go. Ultimately though, I suspect KC would have to go the PIT/IND route and throw some significant incentives out there to get the route up and running.


What was FI’s schedule to MCI? Did they overnight like WW did at STL? Unfortunately, geography/stage length is an issue for MCI.
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Gulfstream500
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:12 am

Looks like people in KC will not have any access to FI flights... unless they want to backtrack to SEA!

Perhaps a future flight to KC will be on B6.
So... when will the Northwest DC-9s be retired?
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:14 am

This is not at all surprising. Iceland has been richly over-served for the past few years on TATL routes, with Icelandair and WOW (prior to its collapse) running a competitive environment that can only be described as folly. The US3 have a more disciplined approach and keep it seasonal. Iceland is a popular tourist destination, yes, and a much less so a business destination. MCI really never made sense at all. SFO is a long stage length. The Iceland tourism fad may continue or it may subside.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:21 am

Did the subsidies ran out? :roll:
 
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klm617
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:23 am

FSDan wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
Also more bad news for Iceland, which is increasingly less accessible for American tourists...


Iceland is still very accessible, IMHO. Besides the nonstops (some seasonal) to ANC, SEA, PDX, DEN, MSP, ORD, TPA, MCO, IAD, PHL, EWR, JFK, and BOS, almost any medium to large market in the U.S. can make a one stop connection via YYZ (AC), SEA (AS/FI), MSP (DL), PHL (AA), EWR (UA), JFK (DL), or BOS (B6+FI).


That might be well and good but it doesn't really help those who lost Nonstop flights to Iceland. Not to mention who want's to one stop in those over crowded over saturated markets. I assume by your comment that you live in a market that has not lost their nonstop service to Iceland.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
FSDan
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:40 am

klm617 wrote:
FSDan wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
Also more bad news for Iceland, which is increasingly less accessible for American tourists...


Iceland is still very accessible, IMHO. Besides the nonstops (some seasonal) to ANC, SEA, PDX, DEN, MSP, ORD, TPA, MCO, IAD, PHL, EWR, JFK, and BOS, almost any medium to large market in the U.S. can make a one stop connection via YYZ (AC), SEA (AS/FI), MSP (DL), PHL (AA), EWR (UA), JFK (DL), or BOS (B6+FI).


That might be well and good but it doesn't really help those who lost Nonstop flights to Iceland. Not to mention who want's to one stop in those over crowded over saturated markets. I assume by your comment that you live in a market that has not lost their nonstop service to Iceland.


Everywhere in the U.S. does not need to have nonstop service to Iceland. The local market from MCI to KEF is tiny. The rest of the traffic that was connecting through KEF to other destinations in Europe can still reach the vast majority of them with one stop via MSP/ORD/DTW/PHL/EWR. The local market from SFO to KEF is bigger, but still small. And there is no shortage of connecting options to get from SFO to most anywhere in Europe.
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klm617
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:55 am

FSDan wrote:
klm617 wrote:
FSDan wrote:

Iceland is still very accessible, IMHO. Besides the nonstops (some seasonal) to ANC, SEA, PDX, DEN, MSP, ORD, TPA, MCO, IAD, PHL, EWR, JFK, and BOS, almost any medium to large market in the U.S. can make a one stop connection via YYZ (AC), SEA (AS/FI), MSP (DL), PHL (AA), EWR (UA), JFK (DL), or BOS (B6+FI).


That might be well and good but it doesn't really help those who lost Nonstop flights to Iceland. Not to mention who want's to one stop in those over crowded over saturated markets. I assume by your comment that you live in a market that has not lost their nonstop service to Iceland.


Everywhere in the U.S. does not need to have nonstop service to Iceland. The local market from MCI to KEF is tiny. The rest of the traffic that was connecting through KEF to other destinations in Europe can still reach the vast majority of them with one stop via MSP/ORD/DTW/PHL/EWR. The local market from SFO to KEF is bigger, but still small. And there is no shortage of connecting options to get from SFO to most anywhere in Europe.


Absolutely not every airport deserves service to Europe but is there really that much O/D from say SEA and BOS to warrant 2 daily nonstops I think not so you can't judge by that. An airport that comes to mind is CLE which could sustain service on a narrow body to Europe. A lot of the aforementioned markets had minimal traffic between them but the flight was started and the market was stimulated. Not everyone has deep pockets and can afford the US3's prices to Europe so FI is a great option. The only reason we see these markets falling off left and right is because the pressure is now off and FI can shrink it's inventory. I'm sorry the customer loses all the way around so it's about more than just the one stop options that are out there. To me the only true international gateway that warrants a connection is JFK and I would transfer there but I'm not building up another cities nonstop flight at the expense of my city getting said connection.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Jshank83
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:03 am

Cubsrule wrote:
kavok wrote:
trexel94 wrote:
Bummer to hear but not surprised. I believe Kansas City (aside from CLE) was the only market where FI was the sole TATL operator.

However, with FI gone, what are the chances MCI could attract another flight? Say to AMS or LHR? I’m hopeful but not optimistic.


Both AMS and LHR are slot restricted, which makes those additions more difficult. But with the new terminal, maybe someone can give it a go. Ultimately though, I suspect KC would have to go the PIT/IND route and throw some significant incentives out there to get the route up and running.


What was FI’s schedule to MCI? Did they overnight like WW did at STL? Unfortunately, geography/stage length is an issue for MCI.


WW didn’t overnight in STL. They came in around 7 Or 8 pm and left around 10 or 11.

MCI wise 2018 they overnighted. 2019 they didn’t.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:14 am

FSDan wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
Also more bad news for Iceland, which is increasingly less accessible for American tourists...


Iceland is still very accessible, IMHO. Besides the nonstops (some seasonal) to ANC, SEA, PDX, DEN, MSP, ORD, TPA, MCO, IAD, PHL, EWR, JFK, and BOS, almost any medium to large market in the U.S. can make a one stop connection via YYZ (AC), SEA (AS/FI), MSP (DL), PHL (AA), EWR (UA), JFK (DL), or BOS (B6+FI).


TPA also discontinued by Icelandair. One of the earlier cuts.
a.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:35 am

Jshank83 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
kavok wrote:

Both AMS and LHR are slot restricted, which makes those additions more difficult. But with the new terminal, maybe someone can give it a go. Ultimately though, I suspect KC would have to go the PIT/IND route and throw some significant incentives out there to get the route up and running.


What was FI’s schedule to MCI? Did they overnight like WW did at STL? Unfortunately, geography/stage length is an issue for MCI.


WW didn’t overnight in STL. They came in around 7 Or 8 pm and left around 10 or 11.

MCI wise 2018 they overnighted. 2019 they didn’t.


Are you sure? I remember seeing their aircraft resting at STL a couple of times late afternoon last winter.
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Jshank83
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:55 am

Cubsrule wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

What was FI’s schedule to MCI? Did they overnight like WW did at STL? Unfortunately, geography/stage length is an issue for MCI.


WW didn’t overnight in STL. They came in around 7 Or 8 pm and left around 10 or 11.

MCI wise 2018 they overnighted. 2019 they didn’t.


Are you sure? I remember seeing their aircraft resting at STL a couple of times late afternoon last winter.


It might have overnighted in winter when it went to 3x a week, but summer when it was 4x and 5x a week it didn't. They also had one get its wings clipped by a Southwest jet so it was on the ground for a week or so nearby until the fixed it.
 
FSDan
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:12 am

MAH4546 wrote:
FSDan wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
Also more bad news for Iceland, which is increasingly less accessible for American tourists...


Iceland is still very accessible, IMHO. Besides the nonstops (some seasonal) to ANC, SEA, PDX, DEN, MSP, ORD, TPA, MCO, IAD, PHL, EWR, JFK, and BOS, almost any medium to large market in the U.S. can make a one stop connection via YYZ (AC), SEA (AS/FI), MSP (DL), PHL (AA), EWR (UA), JFK (DL), or BOS (B6+FI).


TPA also discontinued by Icelandair. One of the earlier cuts.


Ah, thanks - I had missed that (thought it was still seasonal).
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TUSDawg23
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:25 am

trexel94 wrote:
Bummer to hear but not surprised. I believe Kansas City (aside from CLE) was the only market where FI was the sole TATL operator.

However, with FI gone, what are the chances MCI could attract another flight? Say to AMS or LHR? I’m hopeful but not optimistic.


MCI is just not an attractive market for the legacy carriers because of probably a lack of premium traffic and the fact that well, MCI is not a real exciting value proposition from a tourism perspective from folks originating from Europe.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:29 am

That means we'll see the 763 in SEA more often now.
 
FSDan
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:35 am

klm617 wrote:
is there really that much O/D from say SEA and BOS to warrant 2 daily nonstops I think not so you can't judge by that.


Both SEA and BOS can feed FI's flights with connections (AS and B6, respectively), are large, wealthy metro areas with plenty of O&D traffic to Europe, and also attract European point of sale traffic by virtue of being tourist and business destinations. SFO checks all those boxes, but is apparently not worth the resource utilization required to make it work (keep in mind that FI only has 4 763s). SEA can be operated by the much more numerous 752 fleet, and BOS is a much shorter stage length and can be operated by any aircraft FI has.

klm617 wrote:
Not everyone has deep pockets and can afford the US3's prices to Europe so FI is a great option. The only reason we see these markets falling off left and right is because the pressure is now off and FI can shrink it's inventory. I'm sorry the customer loses all the way around


With airlines like WW, the customer only ever wins for a little while. Eventually reality catches up and unprofitable routes are dropped and/or unprofitable airlines go bust. Unfortunately, having cheap transatlantic flights is not a right.

klm617 wrote:
To me the only true international gateway that warrants a connection is JFK and I would transfer there but I'm not building up another cities nonstop flight at the expense of my city getting said connection.


I'm sorry, but this just makes no sense. Do you know how airlines decide which new routes to add? They look at where there's a lot of traffic connecting from a particular origin to a particular destination where there's no nonstop. By not taking a connecting flight because you don't want to support another hub's flight, you're really just subtracting from your origin's O&D numbers...
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ericm2031
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:52 am

They can blame the MAX as much as they want, but a lot of these routes were added in response to WW. WW was marketed more towards the US-Europe market and FI was trying to compete and match it...in the end WW failed and now FI is pulling back out of markets that don't make sense with their business model that has served them well in the past.
 
cschleic
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:09 am

As far as SEA and the two daily during the travel season (which depart about 5 or 10 minutes apart), there are connections from around the Northwest but also a large Scandinavian population in the Seattle area. IIRC, FI began SEA service right after SAS pulled out.
 
dc855
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:55 pm

ericm2031 wrote:
They can blame the MAX as much as they want, but a lot of these routes were added in response to WW. WW was marketed more towards the US-Europe market and FI was trying to compete and match it...in the end WW failed and now FI is pulling back out of markets that don't make sense with their business model that has served them well in the past.


So you are maintaining that losing more than 25% of their planned fleet had no impact at all on all of these decisions? That no changes had to be made due to that unforseen fact? :sarcastic:
 
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klm617
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:07 pm

dc855 wrote:
ericm2031 wrote:
They can blame the MAX as much as they want, but a lot of these routes were added in response to WW. WW was marketed more towards the US-Europe market and FI was trying to compete and match it...in the end WW failed and now FI is pulling back out of markets that don't make sense with their business model that has served them well in the past.


So you are maintaining that losing more than 25% of their planned fleet had no impact at all on all of these decisions? That no changes had to be made due to that unforseen fact? :sarcastic:


So if WOW Air hadn't ceased operations what do you suppose the plan for Icelandair would be going for due to the MAX grounding. Just sit there and let WOW Air eat up their market share because they were short of aircraft. It's Ironic if WOW Air would have been allowed to survive can you imagine the power they would have now in the market.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
babastud
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:13 pm

MCI makes sense for the cut, SFO not so much. I would have expected more secondary cities to be cut rather then SFO. I have to chalk this up to equipment issues or so forth. Granted Iceland is way over served, and really does not need all the cities served but still SFO seemed to be doing well. I would not be surprised to see this temporary. I don't think those SFO passengers are going to want to transfer in SEA or some other city, SFO deserves a nonstop.
 
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klm617
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:22 pm

babastud wrote:
MCI makes sense for the cut, SFO not so much. I would have expected more secondary cities to be cut rather then SFO. I have to chalk this up to equipment issues or so forth. Granted Iceland is way over served, and really does not need all the cities served but still SFO seemed to be doing well. I would not be surprised to see this temporary. I don't think those SFO passengers are going to want to transfer in SEA or some other city, SFO deserves a nonstop.


What makes you think SFO was a stellar performer. When WOW was in the market they basically had to give seats away to fill their aircraft. This is a common misconception her on a.net that only front lines cities are viable. DFW and SFO are perfect examples of this DFW went from 3 to zero and SFO went form 2 to zero. These routes are just to long and the markets are over saturated so yes SFO makes total sense this is the second time FI has dumped that market.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Lapplander800
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:32 pm

dc855 wrote:
ericm2031 wrote:
They can blame the MAX as much as they want, but a lot of these routes were added in response to WW. WW was marketed more towards the US-Europe market and FI was trying to compete and match it...in the end WW failed and now FI is pulling back out of markets that don't make sense with their business model that has served them well in the past.


So you are maintaining that losing more than 25% of their planned fleet had no impact at all on all of these decisions? That no changes had to be made due to that unforseen fact? :sarcastic:


That was S19 which was likely solved in a very expensive way. S20 is ahead and changes done now allow them to de-risk the S20 operation. 5 addional MAX frames were expected for S20, older frames that were supposed to retire may need to have their life extended. Additionally they have likely learned a thing or two from running S19 without WOW, oil prices and world economy seem volatile at the moment requiring one to adapt to new commercial realities and minimize risk.

Even if MAX starts to fly soon, it still takes a while to get everything running again in terms of updates, crew training, return from storage, complete the delivered planes and then resuming actual deliveries as scheduled. One never knows, but seeing 14 MAX flying for FI in S20 must be very unlikely.
Last edited by Lapplander800 on Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:33 pm

Icelandair has not only lost the use of the MAX, 9 frames this summer, but also the reduction in running cost, especially fuel, using the MAX on the shorter routes.
They have been paying pilots without having use of the them and had to pay expensive frames, three 767-300, one 757-200 and one A319 on wet lease to not reduce the route system to much. In the moment it makes more sense to fly the 767-300 rather to the airports with slot restrictions than to SFO.

Icelandair put quite a bit of money in training 737MAX pilots and other crew. Even going to the expense of buying one (useless) 737MAX simulator. All in all a pretty serious bust.

As it is, Icelandair fired the 737MAX pilots and is moving the 737MAX to the south of France for the winter, nobody expects to use the 737MAX before later next year. We also should think about, that Icelandair expected to take delivery of further three MAX next year, bringing the fleet to 12.

Icelandair seems to have come to a preliminary agreement with Boeing regarding compensation, but AFAIK, has not seen any money yet.

I expect Icelandair to recheck the route system, once the MAX should start flying again.

I assume Icelandair will order the A321XLR and stop waiting for the 797. There is a serious discussion about going over to a fleet of all Airbus narrow body frames in the future.
 
dc855
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:33 pm

klm617 wrote:
dc855 wrote:
ericm2031 wrote:
They can blame the MAX as much as they want, but a lot of these routes were added in response to WW. WW was marketed more towards the US-Europe market and FI was trying to compete and match it...in the end WW failed and now FI is pulling back out of markets that don't make sense with their business model that has served them well in the past.


So you are maintaining that losing more than 25% of their planned fleet had no impact at all on all of these decisions? That no changes had to be made due to that unforseen fact? :sarcastic:


So if WOW Air hadn't ceased operations what do you suppose the plan for Icelandair would be going for due to the MAX grounding. Just sit there and let WOW Air eat up their market share because they were short of aircraft. It's Ironic if WOW Air would have been allowed to survive can you imagine the power they would have now in the market.


Yes the fact that Icelandair would still have had to cut routes, even if WOW was still around, is to me patently obvious. You cannot lose all these aircraft without having to contract. Leasing planes is a very expensive proposition especially under these circumstances when many other carriers are facing the same problem. I agree that it would have helped WOW somewhat as the competition from FI would have at least temporarily been less fierce.

FI had overextended itself more in America than in Europe so the choices of routes to cut have primarily fallen on that side of the ocean.
 
dc855
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:41 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Icelandair has not only lost the use of the MAX, 9 frames this summer, but also the reduction in running cost, especially fuel, using the MAX on the shorter routes.
They have been paying pilots without having use of the them and had to pay expensive frames, three 767-300, one 757-200 and one A319 on wet lease to not reduce the route system to much. In the moment it makes more sense to fly the 767-300 rather to the airports with slot restrictions than to SFO.

Icelandair put quite a bit of money in training 737MAX pilots and other crew. Even going to the expense of buying one (useless) 737MAX simulator. All in all a pretty serious bust.

As it is, Icelandair fired the 737MAX pilots and is moving the 737MAX to the south of France for the winter, nobody expects to use the 737MAX before later next year. We also should think about, that Icelandair expected to take delivery of further three MAX next year, bringing the fleet to 12.

Icelandair seems to have come to a preliminary agreement with Boeing regarding compensation, but AFAIK, has not seen any money yet.

I expect Icelandair to recheck the route system, once the MAX should start flying again.

I assume Icelandair will order the A321XLR and stop waiting for the 797. There is a serious discussion about going over to a fleet of all Airbus narrow body frames in the future.


The fateful choice to go with the MAX instead of the A321 that FI made in 2013 is looking worse with every day that passes. Obviously the board was not to know about the future grounding of the MAX but I still think that if they had managed to see past their Boeing bias they should have come to the conclusion that the A321 is much better suited to their needs.
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:53 pm

klm617 wrote:
dc855 wrote:
ericm2031 wrote:
They can blame the MAX as much as they want, but a lot of these routes were added in response to WW. WW was marketed more towards the US-Europe market and FI was trying to compete and match it...in the end WW failed and now FI is pulling back out of markets that don't make sense with their business model that has served them well in the past.


So you are maintaining that losing more than 25% of their planned fleet had no impact at all on all of these decisions? That no changes had to be made due to that unforseen fact? :sarcastic:


So if WOW Air hadn't ceased operations what do you suppose the plan for Icelandair would be going for due to the MAX grounding. Just sit there and let WOW Air eat up their market share because they were short of aircraft. It's Ironic if WOW Air would have been allowed to survive can you imagine the power they would have now in the market.


What do you mean being allowed to survive? The company went bust due to a bad business plan, it's not like anyone banned them from operating. :confused:
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
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Aeroflot777
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:16 pm

Chasensfo wrote:
Not even a downgauge to 757s or eventually 737MAX8s(if it is in range)?


IIRC, the 757s couldn't make it out to SFO from KEF without blocked seats, right?
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:00 pm

Aeroflot777 wrote:
Chasensfo wrote:
Not even a downgauge to 757s or eventually 737MAX8s(if it is in range)?


IIRC, the 757s couldn't make it out to SFO from KEF without blocked seats, right?


Correct. They did operate some flights though, especially when winds were favorable or loads were light in high winter. But the flight was by default a 767.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
babastud
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:21 pm

klm617 wrote:
babastud wrote:
MCI makes sense for the cut, SFO not so much. I would have expected more secondary cities to be cut rather then SFO. I have to chalk this up to equipment issues or so forth. Granted Iceland is way over served, and really does not need all the cities served but still SFO seemed to be doing well. I would not be surprised to see this temporary. I don't think those SFO passengers are going to want to transfer in SEA or some other city, SFO deserves a nonstop.


What makes you think SFO was a stellar performer. When WOW was in the market they basically had to give seats away to fill their aircraft. This is a common misconception her on a.net that only front lines cities are viable. DFW and SFO are perfect examples of this DFW went from 3 to zero and SFO went form 2 to zero. These routes are just to long and the markets are over saturated so yes SFO makes total sense this is the second time FI has dumped that market.



If you read some of the other comments you will find that the lack of MAX's the fact that they still have to pay pilots not flying, etc, etc. This is a major drain on Icelandair and they need the 767's to fly to other airports. This is more about equipment then SFO. Plus where heading into the winter where both SFO and Icelandair are slow times. It makes sense to make the cut. I expect it to come back when things get squared away. SFO is the main airport representing the Bay Area, an economic powerhouse, I think speaks for itself in terms of non-stop to Iceland.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Icelandair axing service to Kansas City and San Francisco

Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:35 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
This is not at all surprising. Iceland has been richly over-served for the past few years on TATL routes, with Icelandair and WOW (prior to its collapse) running a competitive environment that can only be described as folly. The US3 have a more disciplined approach and keep it seasonal. Iceland is a popular tourist destination, yes, and a much less so a business destination. MCI really never made sense at all. SFO is a long stage length. The Iceland tourism fad may continue or it may subside.


It is probably the biggest bubble in the last decade. WOW went bankrupt, Icelandair has cancelled a few routes... and other carriers keep reducing. BA axed LCY and cut LHR by more than half, Eurowings cut several routes, Norwegian cut FCO and MAD, etc.

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