unnayan wrote:

Blerg wrote:

I think 650 A320 series aircraft on order is a bit too much. It's not like IndiGo has the entire Indian market for themselves. Maybe they plan on building a hub network at some Indian airport?

Does anyone know how these deliveries are planned? How many new planes are they supposed to receive every year?

Approximately one aircraft each week for 10-12 years. It also includes replacement for 129 CEO in the fleet. Given how quickly Indigo cycle old aircrafts, some of the early build Neo's would also be nearing replacement by the time last of deliveries are scheduled.

Thank you. So basically they will have an extra 520 aircraft joining the fleet. I guess they will start aggressively expanding all over India, international flying included. Let's see how it all plans out for them, their competition, both domestic and international, will not just hand them over the market on a silver platter.

airboss787 wrote:

Why did BA135/134 stop operating LHR-BOM-LHR? It was supposed to going daily next March and 777 starting end of November or beginning of December which still seems to be the case. But then, why isn't it operating right now? Last flight was October 25.

Looks like the flight was only scheduled until Summer schedule. But here is some more info about another flight that has been added. I think I read on airline route that this will be a 744 flight for about a month.

Blerg wrote:

I think 650 A320 series aircraft on order is a bit too much. It's not like IndiGo has the entire Indian market for themselves. Maybe they plan on building a hub network at some Indian airport?

Does anyone know how these deliveries are planned? How many new planes are they supposed to receive every year?

Indigo has 730 A320 series aircraft on order not 650, Airbus press release: https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html

unnayan wrote:

zionite wrote:

unnayan wrote:

Imagine - You are working in Chengdu and want your old parents to visit you.. who know workable English and nothing of Mandarin and Chinese, are strict vegetarians and travelling first time outside India.

What will you choose for them? Indigo or China Southern or China Eastern or Air China?

Its hard to imagine old parents visiting China. According to Wikipedia, Indians living in Mainland China - less than 50,000 in 2015 or about 15,051 in 2010. I guess about 100,000 right now. At best, a Cessna should be enough for these "parents" category.

For O&D, its mainly business community and very few VFF or tourists - for them price is the main concern.
For transit, majority Indians still pay slightly more to transit in ME or Europe for flights to US - mainly due to food and language. People still avoid China, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Finland etc. even though their tickets are priced quite lower than ME3 or EU3.

It was just an example. Ok take it a different way. Given a choice, how many Indians would like to transit via China to a third party destination? If choices are Emirates vs Air China. Unless the prices are insanely different.

Point here is Chinese carriers don't have much leverage in India apart from certain O&D or cheap transfer traffic. No one will go out of their way to fly a Chinese carriers.

Totally agree with your point sir. Just that the example was not to the point.

For O&D traffic - Indigo has very good competition from Chinese carriers. If same price points, LCC Indigo will badly suffer from FSC Chinese carriers.

For cheap transfer traffic - it's EU3, ME3 vs. CH3. CH3 will be least preferred due to food, language and onboard experience.

Anyone knows what is IndiGo's fleet status? Different sources gave me different numbers.

Planespotters.net: https://www.planespotters.net/airline/IndiGo
127 A320ceo and 90 A320neo (9 incoming)
7 A321neo (9 incoming)
22 ATR (5 incoming)

Airfleets.net: https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Indigo.htm
135 A320ceo and 82 A320neo
7 A321neo
22 ATR 72

Airwise news release on yesterday's 300 order: https://news.airwise.com/story/indigo-o ... ily-planes
128 A320ceo and 97 A320neo
No A321neo and ATR 72 were mentioned

juliuswong wrote:

Anyone knows what is IndiGo's fleet status? Different sources gave me different numbers.

Planespotters.net: https://www.planespotters.net/airline/IndiGo
127 A320ceo and 90 A320neo (9 incoming)
7 A321neo (9 incoming)
22 ATR (5 incoming)

Airfleets.net: https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Indigo.htm
135 A320ceo and 82 A320neo
7 A321neo
22 ATR 72

Airwise news release on yesterday's 300 order: https://news.airwise.com/story/indigo-o ... ily-planes
128 A320ceo and 97 A320neo
No A321neo and ATR 72 were mentioned

A320ceo 128
A320neo 90
A321neo 7
ATR72 22

unrave wrote:

juliuswong wrote:

Anyone knows what is IndiGo's fleet status? Different sources gave me different numbers.

Planespotters.net: https://www.planespotters.net/airline/IndiGo
127 A320ceo and 90 A320neo (9 incoming)
7 A321neo (9 incoming)
22 ATR (5 incoming)

Airfleets.net: https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Indigo.htm
135 A320ceo and 82 A320neo
7 A321neo
22 ATR 72

Airwise news release on yesterday's 300 order: https://news.airwise.com/story/indigo-o ... ily-planes
128 A320ceo and 97 A320neo
No A321neo and ATR 72 were mentioned

A320ceo 128
A320neo 90
A321neo 7
ATR72 22

Thank you unrave. Helpful as always. Was IndiGo's initial order for factory fresh A320ceo 130 frames? This was later supplemented by second hand lease aircraft. I know they have returned/ retired 30 A320ceo, some factory fresh, some used.

Note that 6E has an unspecified number of A321XLRs on order, as per the Airbus release, which should start the LHR/CDG rumour-mongering again. But it is unwise for 6E to use their existing product beyond destinations like GYD and TBS. Already passengers on the DEL–IST leg are complaining on being served nothing more than sandwiches. Also note that there is no streaming entertainment on 6E, unlike SG (then again, AI does not have it either on its A320 family aircraft).

juliuswong wrote:

Thank you unrave. Helpful as always. Was IndiGo's initial order for factory fresh A320ceo 130 frames? This was later supplemented by second hand lease aircraft. I know they have returned/ retired 30 A320ceo, some factory fresh, some used.

IndiGo's direct orders:
100 in 2005
180 in 2011
250 in 2015
300 in 2019

Of the initial 100 IndiGo currently operates 84 aircraft. It also operates 44 ceo aircraft on short term leases sourced from the secondary market.

juliuswong wrote:

Anyone knows what is IndiGo's fleet status? Different sources gave me different numbers.

Airfleets.net: https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Indigo.htm
135 A320ceo and 82 A320neo
7 A321neo
22 ATR 72

I just realized that the list is maintained properly but seems that the summary has errors. The figures in the summary does not match the list which open when clicked. Either there's a bug in the summary table calculations or its done manually.

What routes are the A321neo deployed on besides IST?

VTCIE wrote:

Note that 6E has an unspecified number of A321XLRs on order, as per the Airbus release, which should start the LHR/CDG rumour-mongering again. But it is unwise for 6E to use their existing product beyond destinations like GYD and TBS. Already passengers on the DEL–IST leg are complaining on being served nothing more than sandwiches. Also note that there is no streaming entertainment on 6E, unlike SG (then again, AI does not have it either on its A320 family aircraft).

There is cup noodles too :p

Plus water in. 100ml paper cups!

Don't get me wrong, below 3-4 hours all of this acceptable, but beyond a point, it's natural for a human to want something to sustain oneself. Indigo has mastered short-haul ULCC model. But it needs some tweaking to make it acceptable beyond 4-5 hours of flying. Having an Oven on the XLR and hot meals will be a start.

I think IndiGo is planning on inducting some A321neos with better amenities including an oven. Perhaps they'll do the same for the XLRs as well.

JAL has announced NRT - SFO beginning Mar 2020. The timings are well suited for the new BLR flight. Both flight begin on the same day. I am not sure how their BOM, DEL flights are timed.

https://press.jal.co.jp/en/release/201910/005371.html

edealinfo wrote:

vadodara wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

The Chinese full service carriers will undercut Indigo by offering a wide body aircraft with more space to stretch out, a meal, and more leg room than low cost Indigo. Further Air China et all also offer onward connections to China and the rest of the world. The ONLY way that Indigo can compete is to operate on routes between India and China not operated by Chinese airlines.

So statements like these have been made before most notably when LCC"s took to skies in Europe. After a decade or so, only BA, LH, AF-KLM still exist as hub-spoke carriers in Europe. It probably also has to do a great deal with restrictions imposed at LHR, FRA, MUC, AMS and so forth.

Except for HKG, there is really no slot controlled airport in China. Both Beijing and Shanghai have multiple airports and Chinese govt has been willing to increase capacity rather than 'protect' the incumbent airlines.

It is not very likely that there will be a dominant carrier like in US or Europe in China because of that reason.

Your response still doesn't answer why anyone would prefer low cost, knee crunching 28" seat pitch Indigo airlines over a Chinese carrier offering a wide body aircraft with more space to stretch out, a meal, cutthroat fares, and more leg room than low cost Indigo.

Is there a pitch difference on any carrier? In any case I am pointing to the market share of the LCC’s which you are choosing to ignore.

Jet Blue has a sub fleet on A32X’s with suites and other amenities. They use them for transcontinental routes, 6-7 hrs long.

Quiet conceivable for IndiGo to follow the model.

VTORD wrote:

JAL has announced NRT - SFO beginning Mar 2020. The timings are well suited for the new BLR flight. Both flight begin on the same day. I am not sure how their BOM, DEL flights are timed.

https://press.jal.co.jp/en/release/201910/005371.html

The BLR flight is daily while NH’s MAA flight is only 3x weekly. It is well-known in this thread that NH MAA–NRT is NOT well-timed to connect to the US, while this one seems to be. Does this justify making BLR daily?

JAL Tokyo Narita to Bengaluru
Starts 29 March 2020.

JL753 NRT 18:15–00:35 BLR (+1) 788 1234567
JL754 BLR 02:45–14:15 NRT 788 1234567.

For comparison:

NH825 NRT 11:10–17:45 MAA 788 357
NH826 MAA 20:30– 07:25 NRT (+1) 788 357.

Indigo's pitch on the NEOs is actually not bad. I found it decent compared to their CEOs which was terrible. However, they use a slimline seat to make it possible, which again when sat on for 6+ hours is really hard on your backside.

They already have 7 A321, yet haven't bothered with ovens, I wish they stop dillying dallying and get a smaller subset of A321 for longer flights. Better cushion/pitch/seat, an option of hot food, some form entertainment (even streaming will suffice), giving people a bottle of water and not 100 ml in paper cups. These are small little things, which can potentially make longer flights more bearable.

VTCIE wrote:

VTORD wrote:

JAL has announced NRT - SFO beginning Mar 2020. The timings are well suited for the new BLR flight. Both flight begin on the same day. I am not sure how their BOM, DEL flights are timed.

https://press.jal.co.jp/en/release/201910/005371.html

The BLR flight is daily while NH’s MAA flight is only 3x weekly. It is well-known in this thread that NH MAA–NRT is NOT well-timed to connect to the US, while this one seems to be. Does this justify making BLR daily?

JAL Tokyo Narita to Bengaluru
Starts 29 March 2020.

JL753 NRT 18:15–00:35 BLR (+1) 788 1234567
JL754 BLR 02:45–14:15 NRT 788 1234567.

For comparison:

NH825 NRT 11:10–17:45 MAA 788 357
NH826 MAA 20:30– 07:25 NRT (+1) 788 357.

If the SFO flight begins on the same day, maybe it is all deliberate, and great call. finally, Lufthansa’s Bangalore Express from SFO will have competition!

VTCIE wrote:

The BLR flight is daily while NH’s MAA flight is only 3x weekly. It is well-known in this thread that NH MAA–NRT is NOT well-timed to connect to the US, while this one seems to be. Does this justify making BLR daily?

I would think so.

@CPS001 can correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that MAA - JPN traffic is likely to be manufacturing (automotive) driven and could be aimed at MAA-NRT-XXX in Japan given the business and trade synergies. Japanese manufacturing has slowed a bit so 3 x weekly not connecting to the US could make sense. For BLR I am assuming there's considerable Japan-bound traffic particularly in the Energy/Power/Utilities sector's IT-back room given the post-2016 deregulation of the market. Worth noting that JL is running a 2-class 788 on NRT - SFO v a 4-class 77W with F on HND-SFO. So they don't have to fill up "as much plane".

Interestingly, the only US-bound flight that doesn't time well with the BLR fight is ORD. DFW-bound pax have the option of connecting on AA. And their DEL flight doesn't connect to any of their USA flights except ORD and DFW.

VTORD wrote:

VTCIE wrote:

The BLR flight is daily while NH’s MAA flight is only 3x weekly. It is well-known in this thread that NH MAA–NRT is NOT well-timed to connect to the US, while this one seems to be. Does this justify making BLR daily?

I would think so.

@CPS001 can correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that MAA - JPN traffic is likely to be manufacturing (automotive) driven and could be aimed at MAA-NRT-XXX in Japan given the business and trade synergies. Japanese manufacturing has slowed a bit so 3 x weekly not connecting to the US could make sense. For BLR I am assuming there's considerable Japan-bound traffic particularly in the Energy/Power/Utilities sector's IT-back room given the post-2016 deregulation of the market. Worth noting that JL is running a 2-class 788 on NRT - SFO v a 4-class 77W with F on HND-SFO. So they don't have to fill up "as much plane".

Interestingly, the only US-bound flight that doesn't time well with the BLR fight is ORD. DFW-bound pax have the option of connecting on AA. And their DEL flight doesn't connect to any of their USA flights except ORD and DFW.

1. To which cities in the US will the BLR flight conveniently connect to?

2. If you ignore layover times for a moment, will Flying time for SFO-HND-BLR be shorter than SFO-HKG-BLR? By how much less or more?

3. If in #2 you substitute, JFK for SFO, what would be the results?

https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/this- ... 615291.htm

1. This winter, seven new international airlines to fly in India. These airlines are Air Tanzania, Arkia Israeli Airlines, Azerbaijan Airlines, Lot Polish, Nok Air, Nok Scoot Air and Vietjet Airlines.

2. Air Manas, Asiana Airlines, Brussels Airlines, PT Garuda Indonesia, Tajik Air and the now-defunct Thomas Cook Airlines will be the six airlines which will not operate in the ongoing winter season.

3. Emirates is the largest international player with approvals for 61,209 seats per week, followed by Etihad at 42,525 seats per week. SriLankan Airlines is on the third spot for the winter schedule at 34,403 seats per week.

edealinfo wrote:

https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/this-winter-seven-new-international-airlines-to-fly-in-india-4615291.htm

1. This winter, seven new international airlines to fly in India. These airlines are Air Tanzania, Arkia Israeli Airlines, Azerbaijan Airlines, Lot Polish, Nok Air, Nok Scoot Air and Vietjet Airlines.

And Delta as well

unrave wrote:

juliuswong wrote:

Thank you unrave. Helpful as always. Was IndiGo's initial order for factory fresh A320ceo 130 frames? This was later supplemented by second hand lease aircraft. I know they have returned/ retired 30 A320ceo, some factory fresh, some used.

IndiGo's direct orders:
100 in 2005
180 in 2011
250 in 2015
300 in 2019

Of the initial 100 IndiGo currently operates 84 aircraft. It also operates 44 ceo aircraft on short term leases sourced from the secondary market.

Thank you unrave. I believe the family specific type sequencing would be as following:
100 in 2005- All A320ceo
180 in 2011- 150 A320neo, 30 A320ceo
250 in 2015- All A320neo. Later in 2018 it was converted to 100 A320neo and 150 A321neo
300 in 2019- Mix of A320neo, A321LR, A321XLR

Currently they have 43 used aircraft as per planespotters.net, identified by registration VT-ID*, VT-IH* and VT-IK* series. Where is the 44th aircraft? Was it VT-IKG which was ntu?

Still trying to make out the numbers for neo, Airbus press statement states 730 A320neo family collectively. However, the above numbers only adds up to 700 A320neo family. (150 in 2011, 100 in 2018 and 300 in 2019). Short of 30.

(Sorry for the hassle, I am OCD with numbers. Lol)

edealinfo wrote:

1. To which cities in the US will the BLR flight conveniently connect to?

YVR (Can), SEA, SAN, SFO, LAX, DFW (AA), BOS, JFK, HNL, KOA (last two are Hawaii)

edealinfo wrote:

2. If you ignore layover times for a moment, will Flying time for SFO-HND-BLR be shorter than SFO-HKG-BLR? By how much less or more?
HKG should be about 2 hours less

edealinfo wrote:

3. If in #2 you substitute, JFK for SFO, what would be the results?

At that point you are better off flying an eastern heading via FRA/CDG/AMS

edealinfo wrote:

VTCIE wrote:

VTORD wrote:

JAL has announced NRT - SFO beginning Mar 2020. The timings are well suited for the new BLR flight. Both flight begin on the same day. I am not sure how their BOM, DEL flights are timed.

https://press.jal.co.jp/en/release/201910/005371.html

The BLR flight is daily while NH’s MAA flight is only 3x weekly. It is well-known in this thread that NH MAA–NRT is NOT well-timed to connect to the US, while this one seems to be. Does this justify making BLR daily?

JAL Tokyo Narita to Bengaluru
Starts 29 March 2020.

JL753 NRT 18:15–00:35 BLR (+1) 788 1234567
JL754 BLR 02:45–14:15 NRT 788 1234567.

For comparison:

NH825 NRT 11:10–17:45 MAA 788 357
NH826 MAA 20:30– 07:25 NRT (+1) 788 357.

If the SFO flight begins on the same day, maybe it is all deliberate, and great call. finally, Lufthansa’s Bangalore Express from SFO will have competition!

NRT-SFO will resume from 29 March 2020.
JL58 NRT 18:10 - SFO 11:30 daily 788
JL57 SFO 13:35 - NRT 16:45+1 daily 788

What IndiGo’s mammoth aircraft order (again!) really means

IndiGo, India’s biggest airline by fleet and market share, said it has placed a firm order for 300 A320neo family aircraft. The latest order comprises A320neo, A321neo and A321XLR aircraft and takes the total number of A320neo family aircraft orders by IndiGo to 730.

The order is significant in many ways. Few believed in the airline soon after inception when it placed its first order of 100 A320 aircraft at the Paris Air show in 2005. A lot has changed since then for aviation in India as well as for IndiGo.

The early days

The market is triple of what it was back then and IndiGo alone corners nearly half of that market. All the aircraft from the initial order of 100 planes were delivered by 2014 and the airline started leasing planes from open market to tide over the delay in induction of the A320neo.

By January 2016, IndiGo was 100 aircraft strong. It achieved this feat in 113 months, or nine-and-half years since the start of operations. From there to where it is now — nearing 250 aircraft — the journey has taken less than four years.

juliuswong wrote:

180 in 2011- 150 A320neo, 30 A320ceo

This was later changed to all A320neo.
So the total neo orders are 180+250+300=730.

Jewar airport has moved one step closer to taking with the acquisition of 80% of land required - the minimum threshold required for project commencement in India
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 835087.ece

Meanwhile four firms have submitted bids for the project. The names will be announced on Nov 6.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 828204.cms

VTORD wrote:

JAL has announced NRT - SFO beginning Mar 2020. The timings are well suited for the new BLR flight. Both flight begin on the same day. I am not sure how their BOM, DEL flights are timed.

https://press.jal.co.jp/en/release/201910/005371.html

JAL doesn't fly to BOM .

VTCIE wrote:

Note that 6E has an unspecified number of A321XLRs on order, as per the Airbus release, which should start the LHR/CDG rumour-mongering again. But it is unwise for 6E to use their existing product beyond destinations like GYD and TBS. Already passengers on the DEL–IST leg are complaining on being served nothing more than sandwiches. Also note that there is no streaming entertainment on 6E, unlike SG (then again, AI does not have it either on its A320 family aircraft).

Basically the mindset that since there are Indians who travel in uncomfortable seating only trains ( not talking about the luxurious ones ) , Indians will also fly for 6-7 hrs without ife / food ...... needs to end . People do get tempted by low price but not many would like to fly like that given that they can still afford to book hotels in EU .

vadodara wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

vadodara wrote:

So statements like these have been made before most notably when LCC"s took to skies in Europe. After a decade or so, only BA, LH, AF-KLM still exist as hub-spoke carriers in Europe. It probably also has to do a great deal with restrictions imposed at LHR, FRA, MUC, AMS and so forth.

Except for HKG, there is really no slot controlled airport in China. Both Beijing and Shanghai have multiple airports and Chinese govt has been willing to increase capacity rather than 'protect' the incumbent airlines.

It is not very likely that there will be a dominant carrier like in US or Europe in China because of that reason.

Your response still doesn't answer why anyone would prefer low cost, knee crunching 28" seat pitch Indigo airlines over a Chinese carrier offering a wide body aircraft with more space to stretch out, a meal, cutthroat fares, and more leg room than low cost Indigo.

Is there a pitch difference on any carrier? In any case I am pointing to the market share of the LCC’s which you are choosing to ignore.

With Chinese carriers the whole game is different. If they feel threatened, they can easily undercut Indigo on price sometimes by a wide margin and can sustain for a long time and with larger leg room and a complimentary meal (vegetarian is available, although not good). Plus they have connecting traffic to Australia/NZ, Japan, Canada/US.

hohd wrote:

With Chinese carriers the whole game is different. If they feel threatened, they can easily undercut Indigo on price sometimes by a wide margin and can sustain for a long time and with larger leg room and a complimentary meal (vegetarian is available, although not good). Plus they have connecting traffic to Australia/NZ, Japan, Canada/US.

Sure! If fact the govt. should open all alirlines to go to secondary airport's. If they are willing to loose, power to them.

Having said that, this is not the first time LCC's have been 'tried' to be muscled out but they are around and growing.

Please continue your discussion here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1434189

Thread will be locked.