Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24851
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:18 am

Collings Foundation was flying this aircraft, Liberator and Mitchell bombers out of my local airport (ASH) this weekend.

We have been blessed with their visits, I have some photos of them going back to 2004.

I heard them buzzing overhead both Sat and Sun.

Was thinking of going over to the airport but had too many other things to do so I never made it.

Sad to think there's a good chance some of the same people flying over my house are now no longer with us.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24851
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:10 am

System07 wrote:
So very sad for everyone involved. RIP to the ones who didn’t make it.
Just last week Yankee Lady from Willow Run Airport flew over our apartments pretty low (we’re just 30 minutes from the airport) while my wife and I were walking our dog and I couldn’t stop talking about it. Selfishly I was worried it had gone down when I saw the news since I know there are only a few flying. One of these days I’ll get a ride in it.
I hope the injured recover quickly and maybe if we’re lucky the aircraft can be rebuilt

Unfortunately the crash was very serious and there isn't much left to rebuild:

Image

Hartford Courant ( https://www.courant.com/breaking-news/h ... story.html ) has a pretty detailed write up.

According to audio transmissions of the moments before the crash, a pilot said he’d “like to return to the field.”. The controller said, “What’s the reason for coming back?”. “Number 4 engine, we’d like to return and blow it out.”

“You can proceed to runway 6 and you said you need an immediate landing?”. “When you get a chance, yeah.”. “I just want to make sure because we have air traffic coming in can you go or do you need to be on the ground right now?”

The pilot clarified that he needed to land and the controller directed air traffic away from the airport.

(Edit) As it touched down, the airplane "impacted the instrument landing system stanchions, veered to the right, over a grassy area, over the taxiway and impacted the de-icing facility,".

After the crash, the controller calmly said, “Bradley airport is closed for an aircraft incident.”
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
N8302A
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:55 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:16 am

Very sad news. This B-17, along with the B-24, B-25, P-40 & P-51 visited GON (Groton/New London Airport CT) on September 10 & 11. Having flown on the B-24, I gave myself an early b-day gift and had a wonderful ride on Nine-o-Nine. It was a memorable experience. To the families and friends of those lost, my sincere condolences. To the injured, I hope for a complete and speedy recovery.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4343
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:29 am

This crash might spell the end of passenger flights on these antique warbirds. I am betting insurance premiums for the operators will skyrocket.

Very sad picture. Safe to say everyone on board was an aviation enthusiast.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10107
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:06 am

I know that people say that a classic can be re built if you have the Data Plate, but surely that is a replica rather than a re build.

Incidentally, where is the Data Plate.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1000
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:24 am

kpitrrat wrote:
Additionally, local news here reported that there were currently 18 still flying. Not sure how accurate that number is. Seems like there may also be a push now to enact stricter regulations on vintage airframes flying in this manner.


The rules are already strict, they have to operate under the same rules as any other Part 91 operator, including inspections.
 
wezgulf3
Posts: 125
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:52 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:43 am

jetmatt777 wrote:
This crash might spell the end of passenger flights on these antique warbirds. I am betting insurance premiums for the operators will skyrocket.

Very sad picture. Safe to say everyone on board was an aviation enthusiast.



I’m guessing that would see the number of these classics flying drop drastically if it did. I assume the monies made by such flights play a huge part in them being able to keep flying.

Wes...
 
estorilm
Posts: 762
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:07 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:54 pm

This really screws me up more than I though it would, I didn't know the plane or her crew, but nearly all my war bird friends did - ones friend lost their life (passenger) as well.

Maintaining and flying these war birds isn't for the faint of heart, but I can tell you that attending even one airshow and watching the faces of the kids, vets, and enthusiasts will make it all worth it for the volunteers.

RIP - blue skies and tailwinds to those involved, including PIC 'Mac (who was also an ATP BTW). :weeping:

jetmatt777 wrote:
This crash might spell the end of passenger flights on these antique warbirds. I am betting insurance premiums for the operators will skyrocket.

Very sad picture. Safe to say everyone on board was an aviation enthusiast.

Hopefully not, it's already very difficult to operate these warbirds. :(

FlyingElvii wrote:
kpitrrat wrote:
Additionally, local news here reported that there were currently 18 still flying. Not sure how accurate that number is. Seems like there may also be a push now to enact stricter regulations on vintage airframes flying in this manner.


The rules are already strict, they have to operate under the same rules as any other Part 91 operator, including inspections.

Exactly, if it's safe enough and meets the requirements set forth in its type certificate (typically these are limited class) for a pilot / crew, then it's safe enough for pax as well. There isn't anything inbetween really.

From what I've heard, there are now 10 flying of this type in the country I believe, not sure if that's G's or in general / publicly operating / rides programs etc.

bennett123 wrote:
I know that people say that a classic can be re built if you have the Data Plate, but surely that is a replica rather than a re build.

Incidentally, where is the Data Plate.

With this loss of life, I'm almost certain Nine-O-Nine will be permanently laid to rest alongside those who perished yesterday. :crying:
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24851
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:31 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
Very sad picture. Safe to say everyone on board was an aviation enthusiast.

Indeed. Hopefully NTSB will turn up clear evidence for the loss so future flights will be safer.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7101
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:35 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
This crash might spell the end of passenger flights on these antique warbirds. I am betting insurance premiums for the operators will skyrocket.

Very sad picture. Safe to say everyone on board was an aviation enthusiast.

Yes, very sad. And then so close after the Ju-52 accident in Switzerland last year.

After the Ju-52 crash Ju-Air lost certification to carry "passengers" on their remaining planes.

They can, however, still carry members of a club which is connected to operating the old planes. If you can sign up as a club member just before boarding, then it doesn't make much difference at a glance. But I would assume that it makes a world of differences when it comes to insurance issues. "Passengers" (members) will likely fly totally on own risk. And there may be restrictions to what populated areas may be overflown.

Lufthansa has (quietly) put their Ju-52 to rest.

Seems like we will have to get used to the fact that These 70-80 years old birds will be moved to static display only. Without passenger income there is hardly any economic possibility to keep those round engines spinning.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24851
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:43 pm

prebennorholm wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
This crash might spell the end of passenger flights on these antique warbirds. I am betting insurance premiums for the operators will skyrocket.

Very sad picture. Safe to say everyone on board was an aviation enthusiast.

Yes, very sad. And then so close after the Ju-52 accident in Switzerland last year.

After the Ju-52 crash Ju-Air lost certification to carry "passengers" on their remaining planes.

They can, however, still carry members of a club which is connected to operating the old planes. If you can sign up as a club member just before boarding, then it doesn't make much difference at a glance. But I would assume that it makes a world of differences when it comes to insurance issues. "Passengers" (members) will likely fly totally on own risk. And there may be restrictions to what populated areas may be overflown.

Lufthansa has (quietly) put their Ju-52 to rest.

Seems like we will have to get used to the fact that These 70-80 years old birds will be moved to static display only. Without passenger income there is hardly any economic possibility to keep those round engines spinning.

I thought very similar thoughts, but we can't assume that the root cause of the Ju grounding, metal fatigue, is the same one in this accident, so maybe aircraft age is not a factor here.

All we know so far from witness reports is #4 engine had problems and upon landing the aircraft impacted the instrument landing system stanchions and ended up in the de-icing area.

Yet I think if we did find metal fatigue was a factor in a major warbird incident we would probably see a lot of changes.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
rnav2dlrey
Posts: 382
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:10 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:13 pm

N8302A wrote:
Very sad news. This B-17, along with the B-24, B-25, P-40 & P-51 visited GON (Groton/New London Airport CT) on September 10 & 11. Having flown on the B-24, I gave myself an early b-day gift and had a wonderful ride on Nine-o-Nine. It was a memorable experience. To the families and friends of those lost, my sincere condolences. To the injured, I hope for a complete and speedy recovery.


i was on the sound with friends on 9/10; seeing the vintage a/c including the B-17 make low passes even made my non-av geek friends do double takes. this morning, one of them even sent me video he had taken of the B-17 flying overhead. spectacular machines.
 
User avatar
falstaff
Posts: 5744
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:17 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:48 pm

I saw Senator Richard Blumenthal on the news last night making a non statement statement.

"I think there is a real need for scrutiny and oversight here. And the tragedy that happened here may be a source of lessons for others who are still flying those B-17s. It's a vintage airplane and it needs to be properly maintained."

https://www.npr.org/2019/10/02/76640330 ... ut-airport

Typical aviation reporting; lets get a statement from somebody who isn't involved in any way or isn't an expert in the field.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15351
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:05 pm

Yet there are dozens of DC-3's of similar vintage as this B-17 still flying cargo and some pax service, one will crash from time to time, yet no call for them to be grounded.
Likely what will ground these vintage piston aircraft will be the inability to get affordable high-octane fuel of the proper type, the inability to rebuild engines as parts wear out, suffer stress failures and no new or rebuildable parts available as well as insurance becoming unavailable or at stupidly high premiums. Sad to see that, nothing like the roar of these warbird's engines flying closely over you, but reality has to be faced.
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 2368
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:50 pm

There are DC3s flying commercial flights that predate any WWII bomber ...
 
N212R
Posts: 333
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:39 pm

What do the experts say about the audio transcription (IF it is accurate as reported here)? Is it SOP for the controller to ask so many questions rather than facilitate an expedient return?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14636
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:45 pm

falstaff wrote:
I saw Senator Richard Blumenthal on the news last night making a non statement statement.

"I think there is a real need for scrutiny and oversight here. And the tragedy that happened here may be a source of lessons for others who are still flying those B-17s. It's a vintage airplane and it needs to be properly maintained."

https://www.npr.org/2019/10/02/76640330 ... ut-airport

Typical aviation reporting; lets get a statement from somebody who isn't involved in any way or isn't an expert in the field.


I'm far from a Senator Blumenthal apologist, but the quote you highlighted doesn't bother me. We can quibble about the need for additional oversight, but the second and third sentences are undeniably true. It's far better than much of the talking head drivel that gets dug up after crashes.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Boston757
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:56 pm

So very sad. Would see these aircraft out at Livermore Airport every Memorial Day weekend. The planes would give rides all day. Loved to see it up close as just from town flying the 680 corridor. Awe the engines.
 
hivue
Posts: 2093
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:04 pm

N212R wrote:
What do the experts say about the audio transcription (IF it is accurate as reported here)? Is it SOP for the controller to ask so many questions rather than facilitate an expedient return?


Say what? Listening to the ATC recordings (assuming they were posted to the newspaper web site complete) the controller gave the pilot the freedom to make it back to 06 however he wanted (and cancelled Piedmont's landing clearance) even though the pilot had not responded adequately to the controller's question about the urgency of the situation or declared an emergency.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2252
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:22 pm

Off the crash topic... but B-17 relevant. Here's a B-17 story few know (at 46:46 in video).
https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/ ... _cbs_318_9
(Amazon Prime Video).
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24851
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:35 pm

estorilm wrote:
This really screws me up more than I though it would, I didn't know the plane or her crew, but nearly all my war bird friends did - ones friend lost their life (passenger) as well.

I'm also in a weird place after this accident.

As mentioned, I heard this aircraft buzzing around my house all this last weekend as it took flights from the local airport.

A former classmate wrote on Facebook that she knew the pilot (who did not survive) and the flight mechanic (who did).

The names of victims has come out, but I won't link it here, google it if it matters to you.

Something that is really weirding me out is that one passenger posted a snapshot live to Facebook from the aircraft as it was taxiing for that last tragic flight.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
model299
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:50 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:36 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
This crash might spell the end of passenger flights on these antique warbirds. I am betting insurance premiums for the operators will skyrocket.

Very sad picture. Safe to say everyone on board was an aviation enthusiast.


Let's not jump to any conclusions just yet.

When Jimmy Leeward in the Galloping Ghost crashed into the spectator area in Reno in 2011, everyone was predicting the end of the Reno unlimited races. Still going, eight years later.

I'm going to wait until the NTSB report comes out before I declare PAX carring warbird flights coming to an end.
 
Zudnic
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:42 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:56 pm

When the pilot radioed that he needed to return to the airport because he needed to "blow out" the #4 engine, what does that mean? Does it imply it was on fire?
 
cjpark
Posts: 1225
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:57 pm

Sincere condolences to the loved ones of those we lost and prayers for recovery for those who are injured.
It was always a thrill to hear the rumble of the four engines when that B-17 and B-24 would fly over my house when the Collings Foundation aircraft visited Love Field and The Frontiers of Flight Museum. Nothing like the sound of four props beating a path through the air to keep those magnificent planes in the air.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24851
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:12 pm

Zudnic wrote:
When the pilot radioed that he needed to return to the airport because he needed to "blow out" the #4 engine, what does that mean? Does it imply it was on fire?

Good question, one I don't know the answer of.

When I first heard it, I thought it was along the lines of https://www.dallasnews.com/business/aut ... ing-smoke/ i.e. an expression (folklore or not) for blowing the carbon buildup out of the engine, or addressing a similar engine performance issue.

I don't think it meant it was on fire, I think the pilot would have said so if it was.

Also there were many ground witnesses who reported seeing the aircraft struggling (ref: Htfd Courant link above), none mentioned fire, some mentioned popping sounds along the lines of misfiring.

I would think if the engine was on fire that early in the sequence either the pilot would say so to get the fire trucks rolling to save him, his pax and his airplane, or someone on the ground (at CT's busiest airport for what that is worth) would have seen it and mentioned it.

But, I really don't know.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1000
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:30 am

prebennorholm wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
This crash might spell the end of passenger flights on these antique warbirds. I am betting insurance premiums for the operators will skyrocket.

Very sad picture. Safe to say everyone on board was an aviation enthusiast.

Yes, very sad. And then so close after the Ju-52 accident in Switzerland last year.

After the Ju-52 crash Ju-Air lost certification to carry "passengers" on their remaining planes.

They can, however, still carry members of a club which is connected to operating the old planes. If you can sign up as a club member just before boarding, then it doesn't make much difference at a glance. But I would assume that it makes a world of differences when it comes to insurance issues. "Passengers" (members) will likely fly totally on own risk. And there may be restrictions to what populated areas may be overflown.

Lufthansa has (quietly) put their Ju-52 to rest.

Seems like we will have to get used to the fact that These 70-80 years old birds will be moved to static display only. Without passenger income there is hardly any economic possibility to keep those round engines spinning.

Was that the Breitling airplane?
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3501
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:35 am

Someone at work today mentioned it may have been misfueled by Menzies. What would it even run? Guessing 100LL?
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
vr-hkg
Posts: 230
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 7:32 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:29 am

hivue wrote:
the pilot had not responded adequately to the controller's question about the urgency of the situation or declared an emergency.


That strikes me as something of an understatement. When asked if an immediate landing is needed, their response is "When you get a chance, yeah."

"When you get a chance" is not a statement that conveys urgency. It sounds more like they weren't yet aware of how bad their situation was, or quite possibly, that things hadn't yet become critical.
 
ECFlyer
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 7:55 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:14 am

My son and I saw this plane fly over us in Killington, Vermont in September. We were headed up East Mtn Road. He spotted it first—I then stopped the car and we watched it through the sunroof.

I mentioned to him then that the fuels that allowed big 1940s radial engines to run at full power aren’t available anymore. My mind does jump to the possibility of misfueling somewhere.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24851
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:22 am

Just to weird me out some more, a friend emailed me a link to a high quality video of the flight from KASH to KBDL on Sunday night:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPRdQFtmvAs
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24851
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:33 am

vr-hkg wrote:
hivue wrote:
the pilot had not responded adequately to the controller's question about the urgency of the situation or declared an emergency.


That strikes me as something of an understatement. When asked if an immediate landing is needed, their response is "When you get a chance, yeah."

"When you get a chance" is not a statement that conveys urgency. It sounds more like they weren't yet aware of how bad their situation was, or quite possibly, that things hadn't yet become critical.

Yes, if you can stand to listen to it ( https://www.wwlp.com/news/top-stories/a ... -crashing/ ) the ATC audio itself indicates there is about four minutes from the time the aircraft requests a return to the airport (its last recorded transmission) and the airport is closed due to the crash.

This wasn't apparent from the typed transcript.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Karlsands
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:53 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:57 am

Sounds like it may have entered a spin trying to turn back at that altitude and airspeed , very said indeed
 
twinotter
Posts: 254
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:13 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:22 am

Karlsands wrote:
Sounds like it may have entered a spin trying to turn back at that altitude and airspeed , very said indeed


Time will tell, but I doubt that. The wreckage is clearly on the airport.
 
crownvic
Posts: 2719
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:01 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
Someone at work today mentioned it may have been misfueled by Menzies. What would it even run? Guessing 100LL?


That has been my thought from the start. The pilot reported problems with the #4 engine fairly soon after take off. Yesterday I heard they were also having problems with the #3 engines. Now, this could be erroneous reporting, but if it turns out that two engines were going down close in time, i would immediately suspect a possible fuel problem. Could they have run one of the wings dry? Could wrong fuel (Jet A) been filled into an aircraft that required AvGas? Just my observation.
 
flyXJT
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:52 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:13 am

I find the wrong fuel issue highly unlikely just based off the reason that Collings staff fuels the aircraft themselves, the FBO pulls up the truck and hands over the hose. It’s not impossible if somehow the truck was loaded with the wrong fuel, but it certainly wasn’t a Jet A truck that pulled up and mistakenly fueled by some unfamiliar fueler.

Contaminated fuel would be more probable, and hard to detect. Possibly water in the fuel?

It’s admirable that Mac was able to get it back to the patch, and nearly pulled off an improbable landing which certainly added to the survivability.
 
 
estorilm
Posts: 762
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:07 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:40 pm

N212R wrote:
What do the experts say about the audio transcription (IF it is accurate as reported here)? Is it SOP for the controller to ask so many questions rather than facilitate an expedient return?

Nah - technically Mac didn't declare an emergency and the controller had a number of commercial aircraft in the area at the time of the incident. If anything he was exceptionally accommodating of the pilot and the situation - luckily for all involved, I don't think ATC will play any role in this investigation or incident, as he was immediately cleared back to the field.
Again, considering the lack of emergency declaration, the controller got him back as fast as if he had. Very well done on his part (and he was able to continue vectoring other commercial aircraft in the process - before the airport was closed obviously.) :(
 
Brick
Posts: 1691
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 1999 11:08 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:12 pm

The engine that is embedded in the building seen in the NTSB B-roll footage does not look like it was turning at the time of impact.
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man...
 
T4thH
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:28 pm

flyXJT wrote:
I find the wrong fuel issue highly unlikely just based off the reason that Collings staff fuels the aircraft themselves, the FBO pulls up the truck and hands over the hose. It’s not impossible if somehow the truck was loaded with the wrong fuel, but it certainly wasn’t a Jet A truck that pulled up and mistakenly fueled by some unfamiliar fueler.

Contaminated fuel would be more probable, and hard to detect. Possibly water in the fuel?

It’s admirable that Mac was able to get it back to the patch, and nearly pulled off an improbable landing which certainly added to the survivability.


Water in the fuel is unlikely/has no effect in this case, as it has to freeze, the plane was not able to reach more than few meters, so there was never the chance to reach a high, that fuel could start to freeze.
As it seems two engines broke down on one site during start/shortly after start (first engine three, than engine four), contaminated fuel, dirt in the fuel pipes or in one tank in use for both engines, wrong fuel type (perhaps someone was so stupid to fuel Jet fuel instead of high octane fuel) e.g. are likely, as also some stupid errors/something stupid, like the same guy has repaired/maintained the two engines and made the same mistake on both...
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3417
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:37 pm

T4thH wrote:
flyXJT wrote:
I find the wrong fuel issue highly unlikely just based off the reason that Collings staff fuels the aircraft themselves, the FBO pulls up the truck and hands over the hose. It’s not impossible if somehow the truck was loaded with the wrong fuel, but it certainly wasn’t a Jet A truck that pulled up and mistakenly fueled by some unfamiliar fueler.

Contaminated fuel would be more probable, and hard to detect. Possibly water in the fuel?

It’s admirable that Mac was able to get it back to the patch, and nearly pulled off an improbable landing which certainly added to the survivability.


Water in the fuel is unlikely/has no effect in this case, as it has to freeze, the plane was not able to reach more than few meters, so there was never the chance to reach a high, that fuel could start to freeze.
As it seems two engines broke down on one site during start/shortly after start (first engine three, than engine four), contaminated fuel, dirt in the fuel pipes or in one tank in use for both engines, wrong fuel type (perhaps someone was so stupid to fuel Jet fuel instead of high octane fuel) e.g. are likely, as also some stupid errors/something stupid, like the same guy has repaired/maintained the two engines and made the same mistake on both...


A piston engine isn’t like a turbine. Water certainly doesn’t need to freeze in a piston to cause a partial or total loss of power. Water doesn’t burn, and it doesn’t take much to really shut down a piston.
From my cold, dead hands
 
T4thH
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:55 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
T4thH wrote:
flyXJT wrote:
I find the wrong fuel issue highly unlikely just based off the reason that Collings staff fuels the aircraft themselves, the FBO pulls up the truck and hands over the hose. It’s not impossible if somehow the truck was loaded with the wrong fuel, but it certainly wasn’t a Jet A truck that pulled up and mistakenly fueled by some unfamiliar fueler.

Contaminated fuel would be more probable, and hard to detect. Possibly water in the fuel?

It’s admirable that Mac was able to get it back to the patch, and nearly pulled off an improbable landing which certainly added to the survivability.


Water in the fuel is unlikely/has no effect in this case, as it has to freeze, the plane was not able to reach more than few meters, so there was never the chance to reach a high, that fuel could start to freeze.
As it seems two engines broke down on one site during start/shortly after start (first engine three, than engine four), contaminated fuel, dirt in the fuel pipes or in one tank in use for both engines, wrong fuel type (perhaps someone was so stupid to fuel Jet fuel instead of high octane fuel) e.g. are likely, as also some stupid errors/something stupid, like the same guy has repaired/maintained the two engines and made the same mistake on both...


A piston engine isn’t like a turbine. Water certainly doesn’t need to freeze in a piston to cause a partial or total loss of power. Water doesn’t burn, and it doesn’t take much to really shut down a piston.

But the B17 has radial engines, so there are always two cylinders working at the same time. These are not so vulnerable. There are only few drops of water /low contamination with water needed and a pipe can be closed, when it freeze. There is a big amount of water needed, to kill a radial engine, else a little bit of water injection will only increase the power. a little bit for short time... The water content in fuel is regular tested, there is a big international airport with a regular highly controlled fuel supply, I can not believe, that fuel contaminated with liters of water will be supplied.
 
Karlsands
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:53 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:18 pm

twinotter wrote:
Karlsands wrote:
Sounds like it may have entered a spin trying to turn back at that altitude and airspeed , very said indeed


Time will tell, but I doubt that. The wreckage is clearly on the airport.

Haha , do a spin can’t occur above airport property ? Sure buddy
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24851
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:01 pm

Brick wrote:
The engine that is embedded in the building seen in the NTSB B-roll footage does not look like it was turning at the time of impact.

The Htfd Courant link said that one witness reported one engine not turning before impact.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3417
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:01 pm

T4thH wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
T4thH wrote:

Water in the fuel is unlikely/has no effect in this case, as it has to freeze, the plane was not able to reach more than few meters, so there was never the chance to reach a high, that fuel could start to freeze.
As it seems two engines broke down on one site during start/shortly after start (first engine three, than engine four), contaminated fuel, dirt in the fuel pipes or in one tank in use for both engines, wrong fuel type (perhaps someone was so stupid to fuel Jet fuel instead of high octane fuel) e.g. are likely, as also some stupid errors/something stupid, like the same guy has repaired/maintained the two engines and made the same mistake on both...


A piston engine isn’t like a turbine. Water certainly doesn’t need to freeze in a piston to cause a partial or total loss of power. Water doesn’t burn, and it doesn’t take much to really shut down a piston.

But the B17 has radial engines, so there are always two cylinders working at the same time. These are not so vulnerable. There are only few drops of water /low contamination with water needed and a pipe can be closed, when it freeze. There is a big amount of water needed, to kill a radial engine, else a little bit of water injection will only increase the power. a little bit for short time... The water content in fuel is regular tested, there is a big international airport with a regular highly controlled fuel supply, I can not believe, that fuel contaminated with liters of water will be supplied.


Again, a large international airport would have a highly controlled fuel supply of Jet-A. 100LL isn’t a widely used fuel at a large international airport, and probably sit longer and have more of a chance of picking up water than at a smaller GA airport.
From my cold, dead hands
 
User avatar
ChrisNH38
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:53 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:36 pm

There are reports that the plane struck many approach lights. Was there any landing gear debris around there? That might have caused the plane to veer so violently off the runway.
https://my.flightradar24.com/ChrisNH
 
airtechy
Posts: 779
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:02 pm

I doubt if many here are familiar with the specs of a B17, I certainly am not, but at one point it was capable of carrying a full bomb load to 20-25 thousand feet. Now it has been tuned to run on 100LL fuel and probably other mods. Assuming that the only problem was the loss of one engine, It still seems strange that it couldn't stay aloft on the remaining three. I doubt that it had a full fuel load and the people load would have been 2000 lbs or so. Sounds like there may have been other problems. Very sad event.

Jim
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6527
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:15 pm

airtechy wrote:
I doubt if many here are familiar with the specs of a B17, I certainly am not, but at one point it was capable of carrying a full bomb load to 20-25 thousand feet. Now it has been tuned to run on 100LL fuel and probably other mods. Assuming that the only problem was the loss of one engine, It still seems strange that it couldn't stay aloft on the remaining three. I doubt that it had a full fuel load and the people load would have been 2000 lbs or so. Sounds like there may have been other problems. Very sad event.

Jim


Over on Pprune, there’s a poster who flew this very plane extensively years ago. He said it’s a handful with one engine and never tried it with two out, even idled. It’s a “portrait in drag”, not much happens in hurry and none of the performance of today’s planes.

GF
 
T4thH
Posts: 1108
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:29 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
airtechy wrote:
I doubt if many here are familiar with the specs of a B17, I certainly am not, but at one point it was capable of carrying a full bomb load to 20-25 thousand feet. Now it has been tuned to run on 100LL fuel and probably other mods. Assuming that the only problem was the loss of one engine, It still seems strange that it couldn't stay aloft on the remaining three. I doubt that it had a full fuel load and the people load would have been 2000 lbs or so. Sounds like there may have been other problems. Very sad event.

Jim


Over on Pprune, there’s a poster who flew this very plane extensively years ago. He said it’s a handful with one engine and never tried it with two out, even idled. It’s a “portrait in drag”, not much happens in hurry and none of the performance of today’s planes.

GF

The B17 hast lost two engines according radio messages by the crew. They first lost engine three and shortly after have mentioned trouble with engine 4. Both engines lost during start, both on same wing....
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4450
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:10 am

T4thH wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
airtechy wrote:
I doubt if many here are familiar with the specs of a B17, I certainly am not, but at one point it was capable of carrying a full bomb load to 20-25 thousand feet. Now it has been tuned to run on 100LL fuel and probably other mods. Assuming that the only problem was the loss of one engine, It still seems strange that it couldn't stay aloft on the remaining three. I doubt that it had a full fuel load and the people load would have been 2000 lbs or so. Sounds like there may have been other problems. Very sad event.

Jim


Over on Pprune, there’s a poster who flew this very plane extensively years ago. He said it’s a handful with one engine and never tried it with two out, even idled. It’s a “portrait in drag”, not much happens in hurry and none of the performance of today’s planes.

GF

The B17 hast lost two engines according radio messages by the crew. They first lost engine three and shortly after have mentioned trouble with engine 4. Both engines lost during start, both on same wing....


So so sad. And let's really get to the fact that these pilots on this plane were top notch pros. I wanted to fly on that plane so so bad, but was planning on doing it next year due to funds. I wouldn't hesitate one bit to take a ride on a B-17, even after this horrible tragedy. Prayers are with all of those involved.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6527
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: B17 Crash at BDL October 2nd, 2019

Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:54 am

What do posters mean by “during start”? If the engines wouldn’t start, they wouldn’t be airborne.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos