Ishrion
Topic Author
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AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:32 am

AA98 ORD-LHR, according to FR24, diverted to DFW while it was over Ottawa/Montreal....

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 8#2255534b

Image

Image

On the other hand, FlightAware shows it's a "scheduled" flight with no diversion, but it's arriving at DFW 2+ hours early:

Image

Both websites do show there will be a 6:30 a.m. departure from DFW-LHR, and the original LHR-ORD return flight (AA91) is cancelled.

Anyone know what's up with this?
 
skipness1E
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am

Maintenance issue, with it being faster to take the passengers to the replacement aircraft in DFW rather than wait at ORD for it to come to them?
 
Boeing727
Posts: 843
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:23 am

This one arrived right after us for maintenance as well I assume...

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL ... /SCEL/KTUL
 
Ishrion
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:41 am

skipness1E wrote:
Maintenance issue, with it being faster to take the passengers to the replacement aircraft in DFW rather than wait at ORD for it to come to them?


AA98, which is supposed to now be DFW-LHR at 6:30 a.m. seems to have been cancelled:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/aa98
 
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JetAwayDrew
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:55 pm

This is bizarre. The 787’s are based at ORD, so you’d think a replacement aircraft wouldn’t have been hard to come by there ... so odd.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:10 pm

AA does this sometimes. My wife's MIA-MSP flight was rerouted to DFW for some unexplained reason a few weeks ago.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL4674/history/20190912/2346Z/KMIA/KDFW
 
Ishrion
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:14 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
AA does this sometimes. My wife's MIA-MSP flight was rerouted to DFW for some unexplained reason a few weeks ago.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL4674/history/20190912/2346Z/KMIA/KDFW


That seems like it went in the direction of DFW, though.

AA98 flew up to Montreal on the way to London but turned around and headed southwest to DFW.
 
ScottB
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:40 pm

JetAwayDrew wrote:
This is bizarre. The 787’s are based at ORD, so you’d think a replacement aircraft wouldn’t have been hard to come by there ... so odd.


Even if there's a spare available at ORD, it's going to be tough to scare up a crew at 0400, not to mention finding ramp staff to transfer the bags and maintenance to do the ETOPS checks on the replacement aircraft. The crew for the diverted flight wouldn't have had duty time available to continue to LHR. DFW is pretty busy at 0530 so there'd be plenty of staff around, but cancelling the replacement flight seems to be about par for the course for the AA customer experience.
 
musman9853
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:52 pm

Why not land in phl?
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:00 pm

musman9853 wrote:
Why not land in phl?

Not a 787 base nor does the 787 fly there nor are the mechanics trained on them.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:03 pm

ScottB wrote:
JetAwayDrew wrote:
This is bizarre. The 787’s are based at ORD, so you’d think a replacement aircraft wouldn’t have been hard to come by there ... so odd.


Even if there's a spare available at ORD, it's going to be tough to scare up a crew at 0400, not to mention finding ramp staff to transfer the bags and maintenance to do the ETOPS checks on the replacement aircraft. The crew for the diverted flight wouldn't have had duty time available to continue to LHR. DFW is pretty busy at 0530 so there'd be plenty of staff around, but cancelling the replacement flight seems to be about par for the course for the AA customer experience.

That’s what a crew base is for and why they have crews on reserve to get called out. ETOPS check doesn’t take long
 
Adipocere
Posts: 248
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:12 pm

I wonder what the risk was that the crew decided it was unwise to fly the 3200mi from YUL to LHR but felt confident to keep the plane in the air for 1500mi from YUL to DFW...
 
AMollenhauer9
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:52 pm

Adipocere wrote:
I wonder what the risk was that the crew decided it was unwise to fly the 3200mi from YUL to LHR but felt confident to keep the plane in the air for 1500mi from YUL to DFW...


Crossing an ocean comes to mind. May have been worried about the ETOPS capability.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:07 pm

AMollenhauer9 wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
I wonder what the risk was that the crew decided it was unwise to fly the 3200mi from YUL to LHR but felt confident to keep the plane in the air for 1500mi from YUL to DFW...


Crossing an ocean comes to mind. May have been worried about the ETOPS capability.


If ETOPS equipment was a concern, it would still seem much more logical to continue to LHR with a re-route north through non-ETOPS required airspace instead of diverting all the way to DFW? All they would have needed to do was remain within 60 nm of either YYR, SFJ, and KEF:

Image
FLYi
 
musman9853
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:11 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
Why not land in phl?

Not a 787 base nor does the 787 fly there nor are the mechanics trained on them.


i thought phl was being upgraded to a 787 base? but i guess if they're not ready it kinda makes sense?
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:20 pm

flyPIT wrote:
AMollenhauer9 wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
I wonder what the risk was that the crew decided it was unwise to fly the 3200mi from YUL to LHR but felt confident to keep the plane in the air for 1500mi from YUL to DFW...


Crossing an ocean comes to mind. May have been worried about the ETOPS capability.


If ETOPS equipment was a concern, it would still seem much more logical to continue to LHR with a re-route north through non-ETOPS required airspace instead of diverting all the way to DFW? All they would have needed to do was remain within 60 nm of either YYR, SFJ, and KEF:

Image


Great.....if they had the gas.

Do you know what all the fuel requirements are for flag operations?
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:23 pm

Adipocere wrote:
I wonder what the risk was that the crew decided it was unwise to fly the 3200mi from YUL to LHR but felt confident to keep the plane in the air for 1500mi from YUL to DFW...


Certain equipment is required for ETOPS that normal domestic flight can operate without. No imminent danger, no need to divert immediately or dive into Canada which would be a foreign country for everybody on board......just can’t cross the pond.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:23 pm

musman9853 wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
Why not land in phl?

Not a 787 base nor does the 787 fly there nor are the mechanics trained on them.


i thought phl was being upgraded to a 787 base? but i guess if they're not ready it kinda makes sense?

PHL won’t see 787s till next year. Don’t know if it will be a crew base or not yet. For example AA flew ORD-DUB with an A330, and didn’t make ORD an A330 crew base.
 
Ishrion
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:24 pm

musman9853 wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
Why not land in phl?

Not a 787 base nor does the 787 fly there nor are the mechanics trained on them.


i thought phl was being upgraded to a 787 base? but i guess if they're not ready it kinda makes sense?


As far as I know, no AA 787 has visited PHL yet...

Pilots are being training and the first flight should be in January.
 
ScottB
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:37 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
That’s what a crew base is for and why they have crews on reserve to get called out. ETOPS check doesn’t take long


Chances are at 0400 reserve 787 pilots are in a required rest period or would hit a rest period before they could get to LON. I doubt AA has 787 crews sitting reserve at that hour unless they have early morning departures scheduled from ORD. The ETOPS check may not take long, but if they don't have mechanics at the airport on duty, they have to call them in and that takes time, too.

flyPIT wrote:
If ETOPS equipment was a concern, it would still seem much more logical to continue to LHR with a re-route north through non-ETOPS required airspace instead of diverting all the way to DFW? All they would have needed to do was remain within 60 nm of either YYR, SFJ, and KEF:


If they only had 2 pilots up front, they might not have been able to follow a non-ETOPS routing and remain within the duty limits, considering the flight was already delayed by about an hour-and-a-half.
 
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Boeing757rb211
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:50 pm

I still think Boston Logan,,, Seems like it would have been much more in the direct path of the flight and definitely a large enough airport in terms of runway length for an emergency landing if needed., And its even got an A380 Capable gate or 2 now, along with i wanna say,,,, 3-6? different airlines that also operate the Boeing 787 in and out of KBOS.
 
DualQual
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:07 pm

Boeing757rb211 wrote:
I still think Boston Logan,,, Seems like it would have been much more in the direct path of the flight and definitely a large enough airport in terms of runway length for an emergency landing if needed., And its even got an A380 Capable gate or 2 now, along with i wanna say,,,, 3-6? different airlines that also operate the Boeing 787 in and out of KBOS.


Read the thread. Whatever happened was not an emergency. So whatever happened they weren’t able to go ETOPS. For whatever reason DFW was determined to be the most suitable point to return. Since there was no emergency that required getting on the ground the decision must have skewed towards completing the flight. So where does AA have an airplane, and a crew? It must’ve been DFW. Had it been ORD I’m sure they would have gone there. They didn’t so going to DFW must’ve been the only way to try and salvage the flight with a fresh crew and replacement aircraft. Going to BOS would not have solved any of this.
There's no known cure for stupid
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:18 pm

ScottB wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
That’s what a crew base is for and why they have crews on reserve to get called out. ETOPS check doesn’t take long


Chances are at 0400 reserve 787 pilots are in a required rest period or would hit a rest period before they could get to LON. I doubt AA has 787 crews sitting reserve at that hour unless they have early morning departures scheduled from ORD. The ETOPS check may not take long, but if they don't have mechanics at the airport on duty, they have to call them in and that takes time, too.

flyPIT wrote:
If ETOPS equipment was a concern, it would still seem much more logical to continue to LHR with a re-route north through non-ETOPS required airspace instead of diverting all the way to DFW? All they would have needed to do was remain within 60 nm of either YYR, SFJ, and KEF:


If they only had 2 pilots up front, they might not have been able to follow a non-ETOPS routing and remain within the duty limits, considering the flight was already delayed by about an hour-and-a-half.

A reserve pilot is not in a rest period unless they’ve flown or are not within their assigned duty period. I’ve seen crews called out at all times of day and night. Each maintenance stations are operated on a 24/7 basis with the majority on third shift as that’s where most of the maintenance is performed on the line.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:20 pm

Ishrion wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
Not a 787 base nor does the 787 fly there nor are the mechanics trained on them.


i thought phl was being upgraded to a 787 base? but i guess if they're not ready it kinda makes sense?


As far as I know, no AA 787 has visited PHL yet...

Pilots are being training and the first flight should be in January.

If they open a crew base for 787s in PHL it would be open to all pilots, trained or untrained. . For only 2 787 flights I doubt it will be a base at first.
 
Ishrion
Topic Author
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:22 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
musman9853 wrote:

i thought phl was being upgraded to a 787 base? but i guess if they're not ready it kinda makes sense?


As far as I know, no AA 787 has visited PHL yet...

Pilots are being training and the first flight should be in January.

If they open a crew base for 787s in PHL it would be open to all pilots, trained or untrained. . For only 2 787 flights I doubt it will be a base at first.


I believe there will be up to 5 flights, DFW/ORD-PHL-AMS/MAN/ZRH... not sure if they’ll actually be based there though.
 
ilovepabst
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:23 pm

flyPIT wrote:
AMollenhauer9 wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
I wonder what the risk was that the crew decided it was unwise to fly the 3200mi from YUL to LHR but felt confident to keep the plane in the air for 1500mi from YUL to DFW...


Crossing an ocean comes to mind. May have been worried about the ETOPS capability.


If ETOPS equipment was a concern, it would still seem much more logical to continue to LHR with a re-route north through non-ETOPS required airspace instead of diverting all the way to DFW? All they would have needed to do was remain within 60 nm of either YYR, SFJ, and KEF:

Image

For starters, don't know which track they were filed on last night but unless they were pretty far north to begin with, highly doubtful they had fuel for that big of a reroute. Furthermore, depending on the problem, no sense sending it to LHR if you can't fix it or don't have the part there.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:24 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Great.....if they had the gas.

Do you know what all the fuel requirements are for flag operations?

I do, thank you for asking. Why are you assuming they did not have the gas for a flight that was filed to be easily within the YYR radius, and as far north as 54N putting it not that far from the SFJ and KEF radius? I suppose it is possible that AA's fuel planning was so tight that it was not possible to go any further north but I find it hard to believe such a re-route would eat more than the 10% reserve allowed.


ScottB wrote:
If they only had 2 pilots up front, they might not have been able to follow a non-ETOPS routing and remain within the duty limits, considering the flight was already delayed by about an hour-and-a-half.

Duty limits must be met at takeoff, but once airborne if a duty limit is to be exceeded due to unforeseen circumstances (such as unforecast winds for example) then that does not require a diversion. Disclaimer... I'm a freight dawg so not worthy of "one level of safety" and therefore carved out of FAR Part 117 so my understanding on the newer rules may be hazy.

Regardless I would think they had 3 pilots onboard for the flight back.
FLYi
 
ilovepabst
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:45 pm

flyPIT wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Great.....if they had the gas.

Do you know what all the fuel requirements are for flag operations?

I do, thank you for asking. Why are you assuming they did not have the gas for a flight that was filed to be easily within the YYR radius, and as far north as 54N putting it not that far from the SFJ and KEF radius? I suppose it is possible that AA's fuel planning was so tight that it was not possible to go any further north but I find it hard to believe such a re-route would eat more than the 10% reserve allowed.


ScottB wrote:
If they only had 2 pilots up front, they might not have been able to follow a non-ETOPS routing and remain within the duty limits, considering the flight was already delayed by about an hour-and-a-half.

Duty limits must be met at takeoff, but once airborne if a duty limit is to be exceeded due to unforeseen circumstances (such as unforecast winds for example) then that does not require a diversion. Disclaimer... I'm a freight dawg so not worthy of "one level of safety" and therefore carved out of FAR Part 117 so my understanding on the newer rules may be hazy.

Regardless I would think they had 3 pilots onboard for the flight back.

My recollection is that we can't use SFJ eastbound for anything non ETOPS so that would ultimately make continuing not an option.
 
Magnolia
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:01 pm

ilovepabst wrote:
My recollection is that we can't use SFJ eastbound for anything non ETOPS


Why?
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:14 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
ScottB wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
That’s what a crew base is for and why they have crews on reserve to get called out. ETOPS check doesn’t take long


Chances are at 0400 reserve 787 pilots are in a required rest period or would hit a rest period before they could get to LON. I doubt AA has 787 crews sitting reserve at that hour unless they have early morning departures scheduled from ORD. The ETOPS check may not take long, but if they don't have mechanics at the airport on duty, they have to call them in and that takes time, too.

flyPIT wrote:
If ETOPS equipment was a concern, it would still seem much more logical to continue to LHR with a re-route north through non-ETOPS required airspace instead of diverting all the way to DFW? All they would have needed to do was remain within 60 nm of either YYR, SFJ, and KEF:


If they only had 2 pilots up front, they might not have been able to follow a non-ETOPS routing and remain within the duty limits, considering the flight was already delayed by about an hour-and-a-half.

A reserve pilot is not in a rest period unless they’ve flown or are not within their assigned duty period. I’ve seen crews called out at all times of day and night. Each maintenance stations are operated on a 24/7 basis with the majority on third shift as that’s where most of the maintenance is performed on the line.


This is incorrect.

I don’t know AAs contract but I’m sure the pilots have a long call out time. UAs is 13hrs to push. If a pilot is placed on Short call they start duty for 117 the minute that that Short call period starts. The airline has 4 free hours but that is it. I’d be willing to bet that at 0400 there was not 1 single reserve pilot ready to go before 13 hours. They probably opened it to open time and extra pay.
 
ilovepabst
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:19 pm

Magnolia wrote:
ilovepabst wrote:
My recollection is that we can't use SFJ eastbound for anything non ETOPS


Why?

We can list it westbound for delivery flights and if needed for a 121 operation but have to contact SFJ and coordinate the times it would be used, ultimately so they can get paid I would assume. I can only speculate that SFJ is too small to maintain the ARFF level required to use it in the middle of the night (when it would be needed for the majority of eastbound legs)
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:24 pm

flyPIT wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Great.....if they had the gas.

Do you know what all the fuel requirements are for flag operations?

I do, thank you for asking. Why are you assuming they did not have the gas for a flight that was filed to be easily within the YYR radius, and as far north as 54N putting it not that far from the SFJ and KEF radius? I suppose it is possible that AA's fuel planning was so tight that it was not possible to go any further north but I find it hard to believe such a re-route would eat more than the 10% reserve allowed.


ScottB wrote:
If they only had 2 pilots up front, they might not have been able to follow a non-ETOPS routing and remain within the duty limits, considering the flight was already delayed by about an hour-and-a-half.

Duty limits must be met at takeoff, but once airborne if a duty limit is to be exceeded due to unforeseen circumstances (such as unforecast winds for example) then that does not require a diversion. Disclaimer... I'm a freight dawg so not worthy of "one level of safety" and therefore carved out of FAR Part 117 so my understanding on the newer rules may be hazy.

Regardless I would think they had 3 pilots onboard for the flight back.


Airlines plan pretty damn tight. I could tell unless we were filed on a northern track to begin with we would not have the fuel to do that reroute at UA.

You don’t just burn reserves because they are there........
 
Airbuser
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:26 pm

787PHL base starts January 2020. The award is not out yet. Some will be trained and some will bid into base from bases that already have 787 pilots. Looks like some good flying so it will go senior. Crews needing training will risk being in Dallas during Christmas and away from families. That could cause the bid to be more junior.

Opening a new bid status in a base causes a tremendous amount of training. It can cause many people switching planes and/or seats. It will take up to two years of trickle down to lower bid status. For instance an A330 Captain bids 787 Captain. Someone will have to fill that vacated seat. Maybe a 767 Captain bids A330 Captain then someone has to fill that seat. Maybe a 737 Captain that lives in Jersey bids 767 Captain in PHL. This will trickle down until it reaches the Embraer 190 bid status. Needless to say, opening a new bid status in base is expensive.
 
Tikchik
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:02 pm

How are EQM's calculated for something like this?
 
Ishrion
Topic Author
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:30 pm

https://mobile.twitter.com/tompodolec/s ... 88224?s=21

American #AA98 Chicago to London diverted to Dallas (poor ORD weather prevented return & hotel/pax accommodation)

Makes sense, assuming weather got bad as they neared ORD? Otherwise a more eastern airport would’ve seemed more logical for accommodations and rebooking...
 
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Boeing757rb211
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:35 am

DualQual wrote:
Boeing757rb211 wrote:
I still think Boston Logan,,, Seems like it would have been much more in the direct path of the flight and definitely a large enough airport in terms of runway length for an emergency landing if needed., And its even got an A380 Capable gate or 2 now, along with i wanna say,,,, 3-6? different airlines that also operate the Boeing 787 in and out of KBOS.


Read the thread. Whatever happened was not an emergency. So whatever happened they weren’t able to go ETOPS. For whatever reason DFW was determined to be the most suitable point to return. Since there was no emergency that required getting on the ground the decision must have skewed towards completing the flight. So where does AA have an airplane, and a crew? It must’ve been DFW. Had it been ORD I’m sure they would have gone there. They didn’t so going to DFW must’ve been the only way to try and salvage the flight with a fresh crew and replacement aircraft. Going to BOS would not have solved any of this.


I don't tend to magically form an opinion on something without seeing / reading about it first,,, and i still stand by my assertion that it seems like having diverted to Boston which was basically directly in its flight path still seems to make more sense than to make a complete 180 degree turn and fly 2 to 3 Hrs "Backwards".
in the complete opposite direction

And as far as going to KBOS, because its literally on the way to Europe before going over the North Atlantic instead of to KDFW "not solving any of "this" ",,,, again i refer to my comment above. Boston is certainly NO small airport even for AA,,, its definitely no DFW for sure,, but saying it wouldn't have solved anything seems a BIT,,,, well like that's just your opinion, not Fact.
 
777Mech
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:40 am

DualQual wrote:
Boeing757rb211 wrote:
I still think Boston Logan,,, Seems like it would have been much more in the direct path of the flight and definitely a large enough airport in terms of runway length for an emergency landing if needed., And its even got an A380 Capable gate or 2 now, along with i wanna say,,,, 3-6? different airlines that also operate the Boeing 787 in and out of KBOS.


Read the thread. Whatever happened was not an emergency. So whatever happened they weren’t able to go ETOPS. For whatever reason DFW was determined to be the most suitable point to return. Since there was no emergency that required getting on the ground the decision must have skewed towards completing the flight. So where does AA have an airplane, and a crew? It must’ve been DFW. Had it been ORD I’m sure they would have gone there. They didn’t so going to DFW must’ve been the only way to try and salvage the flight with a fresh crew and replacement aircraft. Going to BOS would not have solved any of this.


And yet AA still didn't have a replacement crew or aircraft available. The PAX still left 12 hours after arriving DFW. Just piss poor management.
 
packmedic
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Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:20 am

Boeing757rb211 wrote:
DualQual wrote:
Boeing757rb211 wrote:
I still think Boston Logan,,, Seems like it would have been much more in the direct path of the flight and definitely a large enough airport in terms of runway length for an emergency landing if needed., And its even got an A380 Capable gate or 2 now, along with i wanna say,,,, 3-6? different airlines that also operate the Boeing 787 in and out of KBOS.


Read the thread. Whatever happened was not an emergency. So whatever happened they weren’t able to go ETOPS. For whatever reason DFW was determined to be the most suitable point to return. Since there was no emergency that required getting on the ground the decision must have skewed towards completing the flight. So where does AA have an airplane, and a crew? It must’ve been DFW. Had it been ORD I’m sure they would have gone there. They didn’t so going to DFW must’ve been the only way to try and salvage the flight with a fresh crew and replacement aircraft. Going to BOS would not have solved any of this.


I don't tend to magically form an opinion on something without seeing / reading about it first,,, and i still stand by my assertion that it seems like having diverted to Boston which was basically directly in its flight path still seems to make more sense than to make a complete 180 degree turn and fly 2 to 3 Hrs "Backwards".
in the complete opposite direction

And as far as going to KBOS, because its literally on the way to Europe before going over the North Atlantic instead of to KDFW "not solving any of "this" ",,,, again i refer to my comment above. Boston is certainly NO small airport even for AA,,, its definitely no DFW for sure,, but saying it wouldn't have solved anything seems a BIT,,,, well like that's just your opinion, not Fact.


Does BOS have 787-trained mechanics? Does BOS have 787 pilots? Is there gate space for a 787 at BOS? Is there a spare plane (with a crew) that could continue the flight from BOS?

Without this, BOS doesn't make sense. They'd have to ferry a replacement plane to BOS (adding more hours), ferry a crew, send 787 mechanics from a maintenance base, and other logistical issues vs diverting to an airport where they have crew, aircraft, and mechanics trained. If the issue wasn't urgent, then they can choose where the most appropriate divert airport is
A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A359 A388 AT72 B717 B733 B734 B734C B735 B73G B738 B739 B744 B752 B764 B772 B789 B78X CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9 DH8D E135 E140 E145 E170 E175 E190 MD80 MD90
 
lavalampluva
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:33 pm

Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:21 am

[list=][/list]
skipness1E wrote:
Maintenance issue, with it being faster to take the passengers to the replacement aircraft in DFW rather than wait at ORD for it to come to them?

It couldn’t have been that serious of a MX issue if they flew that far out of the way.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
TSA125
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:56 pm

Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:00 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
Not a 787 base nor does the 787 fly there nor are the mechanics trained on them.


i thought phl was being upgraded to a 787 base? but i guess if they're not ready it kinda makes sense?

PHL won’t see 787s till next year. Don’t know if it will be a crew base or not yet. For example AA flew ORD-DUB with an A330, and didn’t make ORD an A330 crew base.


Side note, but when was AA ORD-DUB an A330? I don't recall AA having A330s scheduled at ORD, especially not year-round.
No not that TSA.
 
apodino
Posts: 3581
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:10 am

TSA125 wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
musman9853 wrote:

i thought phl was being upgraded to a 787 base? but i guess if they're not ready it kinda makes sense?

PHL won’t see 787s till next year. Don’t know if it will be a crew base or not yet. For example AA flew ORD-DUB with an A330, and didn’t make ORD an A330 crew base.


Side note, but when was AA ORD-DUB an A330? I don't recall AA having A330s scheduled at ORD, especially not year-round.


In the Early days of the AA-US merger, before the fences even came down, AA used a 330 out of ORD-DUB. This was about 3 years ago IIRC. It was staffed by a 330 crew, usually from PHL but occasionally CLT.


To address the 10 percent comment and the reroute fuel. Very few AA flights under flag rules use a 10 percent reserve anymore. AA has an Exemption B343 that allows them to operate with a reserve that is based on historical data for a given city pair and aircraft type. This reduces it to as low as a 2.0 percent reserve at times (Average I would say is about 3.75 percent or so). There would not be the fuel on board to actually reroute it onto a 60 minute route. Additionally, due to CFR concerns in Sonderstrom, many AA dispatchers are skeptical of considering it an adequate airport for the 60 minute purposes, and would consider some that airspace ETOPS airspace. If there was an ETOPS critical failure, a divert decision was probably made. That being said, DFW over an ORD return is very puzzling. I read weather may have been a concern, and I can see that totally. Another issue with 98 is that being so late a flight, not many AA stations have 24 hour staffing to deal with the passengers. DFW would be one that does.
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:19 am

TSA125 wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
musman9853 wrote:

i thought phl was being upgraded to a 787 base? but i guess if they're not ready it kinda makes sense?

PHL won’t see 787s till next year. Don’t know if it will be a crew base or not yet. For example AA flew ORD-DUB with an A330, and didn’t make ORD an A330 crew base.


Side note, but when was AA ORD-DUB an A330? I don't recall AA having A330s scheduled at ORD, especially not year-round.

Summer of 2018.
 
Ishrion
Topic Author
Posts: 1205
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:59 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
TSA125 wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
PHL won’t see 787s till next year. Don’t know if it will be a crew base or not yet. For example AA flew ORD-DUB with an A330, and didn’t make ORD an A330 crew base.


Side note, but when was AA ORD-DUB an A330? I don't recall AA having A330s scheduled at ORD, especially not year-round.

Summer of 2018.


You sure it wasn’t 2016-17? http://travelbiz.ie/newsstory/American_ ... to_Chicago

I could’ve sworn AA switched to the 788 in 2018...
 
kwp302
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:59 pm

Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:16 pm

Tikchik wrote:
How are EQM's calculated for something like this?

Ha this is the real question! Its actual miles flown, so would it be the total diversion distance plus the actual flight to London?
 
User avatar
Boeing757rb211
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:24 am

Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:53 pm

packmedic wrote:
Boeing757rb211 wrote:
DualQual wrote:

Read the thread. Whatever happened was not an emergency. So whatever happened they weren’t able to go ETOPS. For whatever reason DFW was determined to be the most suitable point to return. Since there was no emergency that required getting on the ground the decision must have skewed towards completing the flight. So where does AA have an airplane, and a crew? It must’ve been DFW. Had it been ORD I’m sure they would have gone there. They didn’t so going to DFW must’ve been the only way to try and salvage the flight with a fresh crew and replacement aircraft. Going to BOS would not have solved any of this.


I don't tend to magically form an opinion on something without seeing / reading about it first,,, and i still stand by my assertion that it seems like having diverted to Boston which was basically directly in its flight path still seems to make more sense than to make a complete 180 degree turn and fly 2 to 3 Hrs "Backwards".
in the complete opposite direction

And as far as going to KBOS, because its literally on the way to Europe before going over the North Atlantic instead of to KDFW "not solving any of "this" ",,,, again i refer to my comment above. Boston is certainly NO small airport even for AA,,, its definitely no DFW for sure,, but saying it wouldn't have solved anything seems a BIT,,,, well like that's just your opinion, not Fact.


Does BOS have 787-trained mechanics? Does BOS have 787 pilots? Is there gate space for a 787 at BOS? Is there a spare plane (with a crew) that could continue the flight from BOS?

Without this, BOS doesn't make sense. They'd have to ferry a replacement plane to BOS (adding more hours), ferry a crew, send 787 mechanics from a maintenance base, and other logistical issues vs diverting to an airport where they have crew, aircraft, and mechanics trained. If the issue wasn't urgent, then they can choose where the most appropriate divert airport is


Yes, Yes, and Absolutely..... BUT lets talk about this ferrying thing.... You think its a better and safer idea to turn around almost on-top of Boston 180 degrees and fly backwards for 3+ hours in a plane where something obviously didn't seem right or actually went wrong because they didn't want to fly it over the North Atlantic,, AND keep flying it for the 3+ hours in a backwards direction than they were originally headed with the Pax on board the aircraft INSTEAD of doing what would have been an almost immediate decent and easy straight in approach to a multitude of runways of their choosing and support on the ground followed by having the pax de-planed and waiting safely and comfortably in a warm clean terminal for their new plane to arrive ?
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 604
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:57 pm

Boeing757rb211 wrote:
packmedic wrote:
Boeing757rb211 wrote:

I don't tend to magically form an opinion on something without seeing / reading about it first,,, and i still stand by my assertion that it seems like having diverted to Boston which was basically directly in its flight path still seems to make more sense than to make a complete 180 degree turn and fly 2 to 3 Hrs "Backwards".
in the complete opposite direction

And as far as going to KBOS, because its literally on the way to Europe before going over the North Atlantic instead of to KDFW "not solving any of "this" ",,,, again i refer to my comment above. Boston is certainly NO small airport even for AA,,, its definitely no DFW for sure,, but saying it wouldn't have solved anything seems a BIT,,,, well like that's just your opinion, not Fact.


Does BOS have 787-trained mechanics? Does BOS have 787 pilots? Is there gate space for a 787 at BOS? Is there a spare plane (with a crew) that could continue the flight from BOS?

Without this, BOS doesn't make sense. They'd have to ferry a replacement plane to BOS (adding more hours), ferry a crew, send 787 mechanics from a maintenance base, and other logistical issues vs diverting to an airport where they have crew, aircraft, and mechanics trained. If the issue wasn't urgent, then they can choose where the most appropriate divert airport is


Yes, Yes, and Absolutely..... BUT lets talk about this ferrying thing.... You think its a better and safer idea to turn around almost on-top of Boston 180 degrees and fly backwards for 3+ hours in a plane where something obviously didn't seem right or actually went wrong because they didn't want to fly it over the North Atlantic,, AND keep flying it for the 3+ hours in a backwards direction than they were originally headed with the Pax on board the aircraft INSTEAD of doing what would have been an almost immediate decent and easy straight in approach to a multitude of runways of their choosing and support on the ground followed by having the pax de-planed and waiting safely and comfortably in a warm clean terminal for their new plane to arrive ?


Because clearly safety wasn’t an issue. There is much you don’t understand grasshopper.....it is never cut and dry.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 604
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:00 pm

apodino wrote:
TSA125 wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
PHL won’t see 787s till next year. Don’t know if it will be a crew base or not yet. For example AA flew ORD-DUB with an A330, and didn’t make ORD an A330 crew base.


Side note, but when was AA ORD-DUB an A330? I don't recall AA having A330s scheduled at ORD, especially not year-round.


In the Early days of the AA-US merger, before the fences even came down, AA used a 330 out of ORD-DUB. This was about 3 years ago IIRC. It was staffed by a 330 crew, usually from PHL but occasionally CLT.


To address the 10 percent comment and the reroute fuel. Very few AA flights under flag rules use a 10 percent reserve anymore. AA has an Exemption B343 that allows them to operate with a reserve that is based on historical data for a given city pair and aircraft type. This reduces it to as low as a 2.0 percent reserve at times (Average I would say is about 3.75 percent or so). There would not be the fuel on board to actually reroute it onto a 60 minute route. Additionally, due to CFR concerns in Sonderstrom, many AA dispatchers are skeptical of considering it an adequate airport for the 60 minute purposes, and would consider some that airspace ETOPS airspace. If there was an ETOPS critical failure, a divert decision was probably made. That being said, DFW over an ORD return is very puzzling. I read weather may have been a concern, and I can see that totally. Another issue with 98 is that being so late a flight, not many AA stations have 24 hour staffing to deal with the passengers. DFW would be one that does.


Good post United is the same. I couldn’t bring myself to try and explain this though lol

Sonderatorm is not an airport I ever care to fly a larger commercial airliner into, especially one that is in an emergency. I would question it being used as a planed alternate on one of my flights.
 
User avatar
chepos
Posts: 6806
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:29 pm

Not to change the subject, but to clarify the matter. The 332 ORD-DUB operated only one season for the summer 2016.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
ilovepabst
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:19 am

Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:02 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Boeing757rb211 wrote:
packmedic wrote:

Does BOS have 787-trained mechanics? Does BOS have 787 pilots? Is there gate space for a 787 at BOS? Is there a spare plane (with a crew) that could continue the flight from BOS?

Without this, BOS doesn't make sense. They'd have to ferry a replacement plane to BOS (adding more hours), ferry a crew, send 787 mechanics from a maintenance base, and other logistical issues vs diverting to an airport where they have crew, aircraft, and mechanics trained. If the issue wasn't urgent, then they can choose where the most appropriate divert airport is


Yes, Yes, and Absolutely..... BUT lets talk about this ferrying thing.... You think its a better and safer idea to turn around almost on-top of Boston 180 degrees and fly backwards for 3+ hours in a plane where something obviously didn't seem right or actually went wrong because they didn't want to fly it over the North Atlantic,, AND keep flying it for the 3+ hours in a backwards direction than they were originally headed with the Pax on board the aircraft INSTEAD of doing what would have been an almost immediate decent and easy straight in approach to a multitude of runways of their choosing and support on the ground followed by having the pax de-planed and waiting safely and comfortably in a warm clean terminal for their new plane to arrive ?


Because clearly safety wasn’t an issue. There is much you don’t understand grasshopper.....it is never cut and dry.

If you lose autopilot prior to ETOPS it's a no go. Not exactly a need for an immediate landing.
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 266
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: AA98 ORD-LHR Diverts To... DFW?

Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:28 pm

flyPIT wrote:
AMollenhauer9 wrote:
Adipocere wrote:
I wonder what the risk was that the crew decided it was unwise to fly the 3200mi from YUL to LHR but felt confident to keep the plane in the air for 1500mi from YUL to DFW...


Crossing an ocean comes to mind. May have been worried about the ETOPS capability.


If ETOPS equipment was a concern, it would still seem much more logical to continue to LHR with a re-route north through non-ETOPS required airspace instead of diverting all the way to DFW? All they would have needed to do was remain within 60 nm of either YYR, SFJ, and KEF:

Image


I’m curious if the fuel planning and dispatch requirements would allow them to reroute with ETOPs downgraded.

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