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Pu752
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AV restarts BOG-MVD

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:32 pm

AVIANCA will begin *again* non-stop flying between Bogota, Colombia and Montevideo, Uruguay. Route was suspended in April this year, and certainly this re-start wasn't expected to happen so soon, but very well welcome and good to see this 2 capitals linked again.

Flights will begin DEC15 operated 4x weekly with A319.
 
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SQ22
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Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:02 pm

Can you provide a source, please?
 
pipeafcr
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Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:11 pm

It's also starting Asuncion around the same dates
Felipe Carrillo
 
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LAXintl
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Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:34 pm

Here is a link

Avianca will resume flights between Bogotá and Montevideo
http://aerolatinnews.com/destacado/avia ... ontevideo/
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
guillelds
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Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:46 pm

This is the 3rd time AV starts this route. They used to fly BOG EZE MVD many years ago with a 747-200 and they withdrew to only make BOG EZE 3x a week on 767 during the 90's. Let's hope this time It wil work out.
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3857
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Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:41 pm

Ok there's also a BOG-ASU thread I started it but let's discuss everything here (what if we asked the mods to close the other and change the title of this one to AV starts BOG-ASU and restarts BOG-MVD).

It seems they're commiting an A32S to fly 4x/w to MVD and 3x/w to ASU. Both stations will become daily in the near future if warranted. This smells like they're going to test the waters, which is not good for AV Perú. I'm scared for the LIM hub. Together with POA, these are the only three stations served from LIM and not served from BOG, which certainly leaves LIM rather redundant.

To add on, the unions in AV Peru stopped the approval of an MoU between Peru and Colombia which would have essentially granted AV more flexibility in rotating colombia based crews and fleet through LIM, so AV Peru is now stuck with the higher-cost peruvian crews, which have been an issue to AV's business model for years.

Van der Werff already said they were revising the LIM hub strategy as it wasn't profitable. Meanwhile, SAL and BOG have seen several frequency increases and new destinations.

While I like these wins for BOG, I fear for the LIM station and AV Peru, which is increasingly becoming less relevant not only in the AV network but in the peruvian market.

Let's hope LIM doesn't get the axe altogether. But hey, if it's just not working, let it go.
 
RCS763AV
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Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:43 pm

guillelds wrote:
This is the 3rd time AV starts this route. They used to fly BOG EZE MVD many years ago with a 747-200 and they withdrew to only make BOG EZE 3x a week on 767 during the 90's. Let's hope this time It wil work out.


Are you seriously saying how AV operated in the 80s and 90s has anything to do with their current network planning?
 
LatinAirliner
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Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:04 pm

RCS763AV wrote:
Ok there's also a BOG-ASU thread I started it but let's discuss everything here (what if we asked the mods to close the other and change the title of this one to AV starts BOG-ASU and restarts BOG-MVD).

It seems they're commiting an A32S to fly 4x/w to MVD and 3x/w to ASU. Both stations will become daily in the near future if warranted. This smells like they're going to test the waters, which is not good for AV Perú. I'm scared for the LIM hub. Together with POA, these are the only three stations served from LIM and not served from BOG, which certainly leaves LIM rather redundant.

To add on, the unions in AV Peru stopped the approval of an MoU between Peru and Colombia which would have essentially granted AV more flexibility in rotating colombia based crews and fleet through LIM, so AV Peru is now stuck with the higher-cost peruvian crews, which have been an issue to AV's business model for years.

Van der Werff already said they were revising the LIM hub strategy as it wasn't profitable. Meanwhile, SAL and BOG have seen several frequency increases and new destinations.

While I like these wins for BOG, I fear for the LIM station and AV Peru, which is increasingly becoming less relevant not only in the AV network but in the peruvian market.

Let's hope LIM doesn't get the axe altogether. But hey, if it's just not working, let it go.


That's true, with all the latest movements they are doing in the network, it seems Lima is out of the business. Let's hope is not like that because Avianca Peru had a very nice and smooth connectivity bank, is very easy to connect in Lima. But if is not being profitable, it needs to be axed - that's the real world.
LatinAirliner - Nickpo
 
DCA350
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 7:27 pm

Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:30 pm

LatinAirliner wrote:
RCS763AV wrote:
Ok there's also a BOG-ASU thread I started it but let's discuss everything here (what if we asked the mods to close the other and change the title of this one to AV starts BOG-ASU and restarts BOG-MVD).

It seems they're commiting an A32S to fly 4x/w to MVD and 3x/w to ASU. Both stations will become daily in the near future if warranted. This smells like they're going to test the waters, which is not good for AV Perú. I'm scared for the LIM hub. Together with POA, these are the only three stations served from LIM and not served from BOG, which certainly leaves LIM rather redundant.

To add on, the unions in AV Peru stopped the approval of an MoU between Peru and Colombia which would have essentially granted AV more flexibility in rotating colombia based crews and fleet through LIM, so AV Peru is now stuck with the higher-cost peruvian crews, which have been an issue to AV's business model for years.

Van der Werff already said they were revising the LIM hub strategy as it wasn't profitable. Meanwhile, SAL and BOG have seen several frequency increases and new destinations.

While I like these wins for BOG, I fear for the LIM station and AV Peru, which is increasingly becoming less relevant not only in the AV network but in the peruvian market.

Let's hope LIM doesn't get the axe altogether. But hey, if it's just not working, let it go.


That's true, with all the latest movements they are doing in the network, it seems Lima is out of the business. Let's hope is not like that because Avianca Peru had a very nice and smooth connectivity bank, is very easy to connect in Lima. But if is not being profitable, it needs to be axed - that's the real world.



Does anybody know why they couldn't make it profitable.. Unions leading to higher cost than BOG? I know LATAM has a big presence in Peru but I don't see why a market that large can't support two carriers. LATAM must be far more disciplined on the cost side.. I recently connected through LIM and it was a breeze, much better than connecting through BOG, so I hope AV Peru can get it's house in order.
 
2travel2know2
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Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:40 pm

Wouldn’t be better for AV to fly BOG-ASU-MVD daily and drop LIM-ASU/MVD ?
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
Pu752
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Posts: 450
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Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:53 pm

2travel2know2 wrote:
Wouldn’t be better for AV to fly BOG-ASU-MVD daily and drop LIM-ASU/MVD ?


This would be just just way off AV's current business plans making BOG it's main hub.

Based on your comment, why wouldn't CM fly for exmple PTY-ASU-MVD?

Not to mention MVD is a small market but better connected than ASU and it has an overall more premium demand, so wouldn't make sense from that point of view either.
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3857
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:23 pm

DCA350 wrote:
LatinAirliner wrote:
RCS763AV wrote:
Ok there's also a BOG-ASU thread I started it but let's discuss everything here (what if we asked the mods to close the other and change the title of this one to AV starts BOG-ASU and restarts BOG-MVD).

It seems they're commiting an A32S to fly 4x/w to MVD and 3x/w to ASU. Both stations will become daily in the near future if warranted. This smells like they're going to test the waters, which is not good for AV Perú. I'm scared for the LIM hub. Together with POA, these are the only three stations served from LIM and not served from BOG, which certainly leaves LIM rather redundant.

To add on, the unions in AV Peru stopped the approval of an MoU between Peru and Colombia which would have essentially granted AV more flexibility in rotating colombia based crews and fleet through LIM, so AV Peru is now stuck with the higher-cost peruvian crews, which have been an issue to AV's business model for years.

Van der Werff already said they were revising the LIM hub strategy as it wasn't profitable. Meanwhile, SAL and BOG have seen several frequency increases and new destinations.

While I like these wins for BOG, I fear for the LIM station and AV Peru, which is increasingly becoming less relevant not only in the AV network but in the peruvian market.

Let's hope LIM doesn't get the axe altogether. But hey, if it's just not working, let it go.


That's true, with all the latest movements they are doing in the network, it seems Lima is out of the business. Let's hope is not like that because Avianca Peru had a very nice and smooth connectivity bank, is very easy to connect in Lima. But if is not being profitable, it needs to be axed - that's the real world.



Does anybody know why they couldn't make it profitable.. Unions leading to higher cost than BOG? I know LATAM has a big presence in Peru but I don't see why a market that large can't support two carriers. LATAM must be far more disciplined on the cost side.. I recently connected through LIM and it was a breeze, much better than connecting through BOG, so I hope AV Peru can get it's house in order.


Connecting through LIM is better than connecting through BOG? LIM is operating way beyond capacity and it's latest expansion was finished 15 years ago, everything looks very 2003. Lines for immigration are insane and there almost never a place to park on a gate which actually has a jetway. Sadly, BOG is quickly reaching the same situation although with twice as much available infrastructure. Both airports need to be expanded, but LIM needs it ASAP.

Now to answer your question, IMO LIM is not working for AV because it basically has:

(i) Much higher labor costs, combined with the impossibility to rotate Colombia based crews and aircraft on LIM-South America routes which would have given oxygen to the operation;
(ii) A newly unfriendly tax environment as Perú just raised a certain import tax on aircraft, don't know the details (VivaAir froze their Peru expansion mostly because of it);
(iii) An oversaturated and operationally inefficient airport, raising costs and minimizing expansion opportunities;
(iv) Lots pricing control from LATAM's massive hub there (same as LATAM has in BOG with AV, where as you see LATAM Colombia cut all international services and has a limited domestic network);
(vi) LCCs growing like wildfire (Viva and Jetsmart), which depresses yields;
(vii) AV's late at changing their business model to effectively compete with LCCs as LATAM already has (they just realized they have to charge for bags and remove short haul business);
(viii) The fact that BOG-East Coast US is all doable efficiently on narrow body aircraft, while LIM requires a narrow body to be on the air 6 hrs to reach Florida and everything from MCO up is not doable un current models, which implies higher costs to operate to the main connecting markets (widebodies).

All of that adds up to LIM having higher CASM and less yields than BOG for Avianca. Sure, they could invest millions in the hub to see what turns out as they already did 7 years ago to a disappointing outcome. But in AV's current financial position there's no point in chasing market share just for market share. Gotta stick to Colombia, El Salvador and Ecuador, the healthy branches.

It's sad, but it's the way it is. We'll see if these are all concoctions of mine, hoping they are and LIM eventually thrives.
 
RCS763AV
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Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:24 pm

2travel2know2 wrote:
Wouldn’t be better for AV to fly BOG-ASU-MVD daily and drop LIM-ASU/MVD ?


That makes no sense in the perspective of a connecting hub. Also, both routes are intended to go daily in the short term.
 
2travel2know2
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Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:39 pm

Pu752 wrote:
2travel2know2 wrote:
Wouldn’t be better for AV to fly BOG-ASU-MVD daily and drop LIM-ASU/MVD ?


This would be just just way off AV's current business plans making BOG it's main hub.

Based on your comment, why wouldn't CM fly for exmple PTY-ASU-MVD?

Not to mention MVD is a small market but better connected than ASU and it has an overall more premium demand, so wouldn't make sense from that point of view either.

Business plan to prioritise non-daily non-stop over daily flights? That’s great if both BOG-ASU and BOG-MVD are to go daily within a year.

Why should CM fly that PTY-ASU-MVD if CM has twice daily to both MVD and ASU and who knows PTY hub could even have the demand to need a 3rd daily to either MVD or ASU quite soon?

You’re right, there’s premium demand which prefers non-daily non-stops to daily one-stop flights.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3857
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:49 pm

So let me get this straight, you're attacking Pu752 on his logic because you're applying a double standard? Somehow it's common practice in the industry for airlines to launch business oriented routes less than daily until mature and build up demand (includng CM) but AV shouldn't and it would be wiser to have people go on a triangle flight which is uncomfortable for ASU pax on the northbound and MVD pax on the southbound?

What does that have to say about routes like BGA, GDL, MTY, COR, VVI and even MVD and ASU which all started/are still less than daily by CM?

...the arguments you see on this forum sometimes...

Anyways, back to the topic, I wonder if MVD gave them any kind of incentive to come back, or maybe jet fuel in Uruguay started being less expensive? I'm trying to figure out theories that don't involve the obvious redundancy and posterior shutdown of LIM here...
 
dcajet
Posts: 4689
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Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:05 pm

guillelds wrote:
This is the 3rd time AV starts this route. They used to fly BOG EZE MVD many years ago with a 747-200 and they withdrew to only make BOG EZE 3x a week on 767 during the 90's. Let's hope this time It wil work out.


I don't recall Avianca ever operating at EZE with the 747. Until well into the early to mid 90s they operated 2x w with the 707s via SCL and the plane overnighted in Buenos Aires. AV also had SCL-based cabin crew (except for the Purser) operate the SCL-EZE-SCL legs.

RCS763AV wrote:

It seems they're commiting an A32S to fly 4x/w to MVD and 3x/w to ASU.


If AV plans to operate an A320 to MVD it'll have to be the NEO. The CEO does not have the legs out of BOG due to the airport's elevation. The A319 has no range issues ex-BOG. Same case applies to EZE.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
SJOtoLIR
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Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:51 am

Speaking about AV network in Peru, both MVD and ASU were a heritage from TACA PERU from the last decade.
Since the AV-TA merger came into fruition, we have actually seen how BOG is duplicating some South American stations that have been served in the past from Peru like LPB, CUZ, VVI, ASU and so forth. Even BSB was briefly included in that list.
Did AV mainline operate BOG-GIG before 2010 ?
AV BOG-LIM and back is 5x daily. However, Avianca is opting for BOG-ASU over any BOG-LIM-ASU.
The proximity of their hubs BOG and LIM could have undermined its optimal model of business.
Something similar occurred in Central America: the duplicity of SAL and SJO didn't work successfully on AV network and the status of SJO hub was suddenly cancelled in 2013.
As pointing out above, AV has a formidable competitor in Lima called LATAM, offering more international frequencies and destinations than AV is capable to supply there.
With that being said above, I have a feeling BOG could've been working better than LIM on AV. Let me put it this way: they will drop AV LIM-VVI due to the crisis. AV BOG-VVI will remain active.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
2travel2know2
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Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:51 am

RCS763AV wrote:
So let me get this straight, you're attacking Pu752 on his logic because you're applying a double standard? Somehow it's common practice in the industry for airlines to launch business oriented routes less than daily until mature and build up demand (includng CM) but AV shouldn't and it would be wiser to have people go on a triangle flight which is uncomfortable for ASU pax on the northbound and MVD pax on the southbound?

What does that have to say about routes like BGA, GDL, MTY, COR, VVI and even MVD and ASU which all started/are still less than daily by CM?

...the arguments you see on this forum sometimes...

Anyways, back to the topic, I wonder if MVD gave them any kind of incentive to come back, or maybe jet fuel in Uruguay started being less expensive? I'm trying to figure out theories that don't involve the obvious redundancy and posterior shutdown of LIM here...

Who’s attacking AV?

Every airline has its common practices, look at how TK opens and keeps new destinations from IST, not exactly the same as CM or AV.

Where was a triangle route mentioned?

When were those CM routes started? Were they started way before CM hub became what’s now?
If CM thinks twice a week to some destinations is the way to go, let CM think that. IMHO, would CM have looked into expanding like TK does out of IST, CM might probably now had keep FOR and increased PTY-Northeast Brazil to daily plus planned to start sometime soon PTY-SLA-TUC-PTY daily.

Now back to the subject of this thread:
If AV’s closing its LIM hub, it makes a lot of sense to offer MVD non-stop from BOG.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 3055
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:09 am

Calm down, guys !
Back to aviation-wise, we cannot fairly compare [MVD-ASU] on AV and CM.
CM PTY-MVD 14x weekly started in 2007, whilst CM PTY-ASU 12x weekly began in 2011.
Copa Airlines only deploys one-stop flights in some routes within Central America.
We will never see any CM PTY-ASU-MVD-PTY or so.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
OGLOBAL
Posts: 202
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:29 pm

Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:48 am

i am glad AV is expanding in BOG . on other news does any one know if Munich is getting axed i keep reading conflicting news
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3857
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:29 am

2travel2know2 wrote:
RCS763AV wrote:
So let me get this straight, you're attacking Pu752 on his logic because you're applying a double standard? Somehow it's common practice in the industry for airlines to launch business oriented routes less than daily until mature and build up demand (includng CM) but AV shouldn't and it would be wiser to have people go on a triangle flight which is uncomfortable for ASU pax on the northbound and MVD pax on the southbound?

What does that have to say about routes like BGA, GDL, MTY, COR, VVI and even MVD and ASU which all started/are still less than daily by CM?

...the arguments you see on this forum sometimes...

Anyways, back to the topic, I wonder if MVD gave them any kind of incentive to come back, or maybe jet fuel in Uruguay started being less expensive? I'm trying to figure out theories that don't involve the obvious redundancy and posterior shutdown of LIM here...

Who’s attacking AV?

Every airline has its common practices, look at how TK opens and keeps new destinations from IST, not exactly the same as CM or AV.

Where was a triangle route mentioned?

When were those CM routes started? Were they started way before CM hub became what’s now?
If CM thinks twice a week to some destinations is the way to go, let CM think that. IMHO, would CM have looked into expanding like TK does out of IST, CM might probably now had keep FOR and increased PTY-Northeast Brazil to daily plus planned to start sometime soon PTY-SLA-TUC-PTY daily.

Now back to the subject of this thread:
If AV’s closing its LIM hub, it makes a lot of sense to offer MVD non-stop from BOG.


Nobody said you were attacking AV. Your one stop flight argument was flawed and you attacked Pu752’s post for arguing with you in a sound manner while applying a double standard.

About BOG-MUC, load factors are fine. I do know LH hasn’t been happy and hasn’t given them certain beyond benefits for connecting flights from a friend who works in the relevant department at AV.
 
planeguy
Posts: 359
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:11 am

I was wondering, could AV make BOG-CBB-BOG work?
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3857
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:35 am

planeguy wrote:
I was wondering, could AV make BOG-CBB-BOG work?


Bolivia remains a small country population wise and a tiny economy. The daily flights to LPB and VVI have some business traffic and tourism is booming in La Paz right now, but the business case for a CBB flight from BOG seems tougher than the other two. I wouldn't put my 2c on CBB-BOG at least until they consolidate LPB and VVI to twice daily frequencies.

Checking the available international flights from CBB, they seem to be heavily oriented to localized VFR traffic (EZE, GRU and MAD), which makes me wonder if there's enough business traffic to make a flight to a connecting hub worth flying. Also there doesn't seem to be a lot of CBB-North America VFR given there's no direct flights. S.Am-N.Am is one of AV's main connecting markets (Andean Nations-Europe is arguably the main one).

Maybe a LATAM flight to LIM which is closer and has probably more business ties with the Cochabamba area might be a better option.
 
Avianca
Posts: 5373
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

Re: AV restarts BOG-MVD

Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:30 pm

[/quote]

Nobody said you were attacking AV. Your one stop flight argument was flawed and you attacked Pu752’s post for arguing with you in a sound manner while applying a double standard.

About BOG-MUC, load factors are fine. I do know LH hasn’t been happy and hasn’t given them certain beyond benefits for connecting flights from a friend who works in the relevant department at AV.[/quote]

I have used several times the flight and it was always packed - of course does not mean a lot regarding the yield.
Why should LH not be happy - AV is feeding them fine at their MUC hub ….
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia

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