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Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:52 pm
by dcajet
Iberia will not deploy the A350 on the MAD-BOG route, which was scheduled for 15/10. The airline says "operational reasons" are behind the decision and has not given a new date for the deployment of the A350 on the route. The A346 will continue to serve BOG.

Instead the airline has announced A350 service to SJO and SCL, for Decemeber and January, respectively. Until then, only EZE, JFK & ORD will continue to see IB's A350s.

https://torreeldorado.co/iberia-airbus- ... id-bogota/

Re: Iberia cancels planned A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:08 pm
by LatinAirliner
I think there is a new date, the article mentions January 1st 2020.

According to Airline Route, the A350 will be flying January 1st 2020 to BOG: https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-changes/

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:15 pm
by dcajet
Changed the title to reflect the info you provided - although Iberia's not confirmed that, Routes Online is a very credible source.

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:36 pm
by Weatherwatcher1
Is this due to delivery for the A350s?

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:47 pm
by TheF15Ace
How come the DL IB A350 can't fly LAX-SYD MAD-BOG? :duck:

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:55 pm
by LatinAirliner
My questions are:

How is the A350 performance taking off from high altitude airports in long haul flights?
Is Iberia still making performance analysis for the BOG-MAD route in specific?
I think Lufthansa had already tested their A350 in the MEX-MUC route and they went back to the A340-600, is because of performance?

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:24 pm
by dcajet
LatinAirliner wrote:
My questions are:

How is the A350 performance taking off from high altitude airports in long haul flights?
Is Iberia still making performance analysis for the BOG-MAD route in specific?
I think Lufthansa had already tested their A350 in the MEX-MUC route and they went back to the A340-600, is because of performance?


The airline only has said the delay is due to "operational reasons" so make what you'd like of it. It is only a 75-day long postponement, not sure what could change with the A350s in that period of time. I am not aware of the reasons why LH went back to the A346 on the MUC-MEX run.

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:07 pm
by dcajet
BOG ---> 2,640 msl
MEX ---> 2,250 msl

If the A350 had issues at MEX, they won't get any better at BOG.

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:37 pm
by seabosdca
Failure to procure some necessary piece of equipment on time?

With that big wing, the A350 shouldn't have takeoff performance issues at BOG.

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:50 pm
by BaconButty
dcajet wrote:
BOG ---> 2,640 msl
MEX ---> 2,250 msl

If the A350 had issues at MEX, they won't get any better at BOG.


ADD is at 2,334m, they fly to PVG which is between MAD-BOG and MUC-MEX in distance. That and the fact that the route is starting a couple of months later would suggest the reasons are more mundane?

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:16 am
by gbsgoulart
seabosdca wrote:
Failure to procure some necessary piece of equipment on time?

With that big wing, the A350 shouldn't have takeoff performance issues at BOG.


It is actually due to some obstacles around BOG runways. Thus, the payload restrictions hinder the use of the A350. The Colombian CAA is already working on solutions, so the January 1st schedule should work.

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:02 am
by Jomar777
I wonder why did IB not plan replacing the A346 on the MAD-GRU route by the A350 yet?
GIG is on a A332 which is more thna fine given the actual yields and the fact that their A332s are quite new.
But why doens't GRU gets a replacement?

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:56 pm
by dcajet
Jomar777 wrote:
I wonder why did IB not plan replacing the A346 on the MAD-GRU route by the A350 yet?
GIG is on a A332 which is more thna fine given the actual yields and the fact that their A332s are quite new.
But why doens't GRU gets a replacement?


Because other markets in South America are more important to Iberia's bottom line than GRU. Same reason why TAP rules in Brazil, Iberia rules in Argentina, etc.

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:36 am
by Jomar777
dcajet wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
I wonder why did IB not plan replacing the A346 on the MAD-GRU route by the A350 yet?
GIG is on a A332 which is more thna fine given the actual yields and the fact that their A332s are quite new.
But why doens't GRU gets a replacement?


Because other markets in South America are more important to Iberia's bottom line than GRU. Same reason why TAP rules in Brazil, Iberia rules in Argentina, etc.


Get that since, historically, IB really started in South America in EZE but surely GRU accrues more passenger yields than, let's say BOG. IB's GRU offer is the worst one between Air Europa (B789), Latam (B77W) and Air China (B789). You could mention the service as a differential but I did this line on LATAM & IB not long ago (LATAM outbound and IB inbound) and I foujnd no significant difference on the offering.

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:26 am
by pipeafcr
Jomar777 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
I wonder why did IB not plan replacing the A346 on the MAD-GRU route by the A350 yet?
GIG is on a A332 which is more thna fine given the actual yields and the fact that their A332s are quite new.
But why doens't GRU gets a replacement?


Because other markets in South America are more important to Iberia's bottom line than GRU. Same reason why TAP rules in Brazil, Iberia rules in Argentina, etc.


Get that since, historically, IB really started in South America in EZE but surely GRU accrues more passenger yields than, let's say BOG. IB's GRU offer is the worst one between Air Europa (B789), Latam (B77W) and Air China (B789). You could mention the service as a differential but I did this line on LATAM & IB not long ago (LATAM outbound and IB inbound) and I foujnd no significant difference on the offering.


In 2018, BOG was the busiest international route (outside the EU) out of MAD

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:46 pm
by HIA350
TheF15Ace wrote:
How come the DL IB A350 can't fly LAX-SYD MAD-BOG? :duck:



mad - bog is 4338 nautical miles, even the mighty a343 can do it so get your facts straight

LAX - Syd is 6507 NM you should call delta and IB operations tell them you need information for school paper and ask them instead of using sarcasm

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:04 pm
by TheF15Ace
HIA350 wrote:
TheF15Ace wrote:
How come the DL IB A350 can't fly LAX-SYD MAD-BOG? :duck:



mad - bog is 4338 nautical miles, even the mighty a343 can do it so get your facts straight

LAX - Syd is 6507 NM you should call delta and IB operations tell them you need information for school paper and ask them instead of using sarcasm


Image

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:58 pm
by DCA350
pipeafcr wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
dcajet wrote:

Because other markets in South America are more important to Iberia's bottom line than GRU. Same reason why TAP rules in Brazil, Iberia rules in Argentina, etc.


Get that since, historically, IB really started in South America in EZE but surely GRU accrues more passenger yields than, let's say BOG. IB's GRU offer is the worst one between Air Europa (B789), Latam (B77W) and Air China (B789). You could mention the service as a differential but I did this line on LATAM & IB not long ago (LATAM outbound and IB inbound) and I foujnd no significant difference on the offering.


In 2018, BOG was the busiest international route (outside the EU) out of MAD


Thanks for the info, I always thought EZE was King, but BOG is a powerhouse that's only going to continue to grow, especially with Argentina's economy tanking again.

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:45 pm
by dcajet
DCA350 wrote:
pipeafcr wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:

Get that since, historically, IB really started in South America in EZE but surely GRU accrues more passenger yields than, let's say BOG. IB's GRU offer is the worst one between Air Europa (B789), Latam (B77W) and Air China (B789). You could mention the service as a differential but I did this line on LATAM & IB not long ago (LATAM outbound and IB inbound) and I foujnd no significant difference on the offering.


In 2018, BOG was the busiest international route (outside the EU) out of MAD


Thanks for the info, I always thought EZE was King, but BOG is a powerhouse that's only going to continue to grow, especially with Argentina's economy tanking again.


Not that fast. The only reason BOG has more passengers is AV's hub thaf funnels passengers to pretty much everywhere in the region, except far away places such as EZE or GRU. When it comes to point to point traffic, EZE (and MEX) are still streets ahead from BOG. In fact, Argentina is the country in the world where most Spanish nationals live outside of Spain.

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:54 pm
by DCA350
dcajet wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
pipeafcr wrote:

In 2018, BOG was the busiest international route (outside the EU) out of MAD


Thanks for the info, I always thought EZE was King, but BOG is a powerhouse that's only going to continue to grow, especially with Argentina's economy tanking again.


Not that fast. The only reason BOG has more passengers is AV's hub thaf funnels passengers to pretty much everywhere in the region, except far away places such as EZE or GRU. When it comes to point to point traffic, EZE (and MEX) are still streets ahead from BOG. In fact, Argentina is the country in the world where most Spanish nationals live outside of Spain.


Ok this makes sense.. As I acknowledged before I thought EZE handled more traffic and Iberia's number of flights reflect this. But Colombia is Booming.. They have flights to Madrid from MDE and CLO in addition to the up to 5 daily from Bogota.

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:56 am
by danimarroquin
gbsgoulart wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
Failure to procure some necessary piece of equipment on time?

With that big wing, the A350 shouldn't have takeoff performance issues at BOG.


It is actually due to some obstacles around BOG runways. Thus, the payload restrictions hinder the use of the A350. The Colombian CAA is already working on solutions, so the January 1st schedule should work.


what obstacles ??? there's 2 runways in SKBO , so i really don't see the inconvenience for a obstacle ?

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:16 am
by gbsgoulart
danimarroquin wrote:
gbsgoulart wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
Failure to procure some necessary piece of equipment on time?

With that big wing, the A350 shouldn't have takeoff performance issues at BOG.


It is actually due to some obstacles around BOG runways. Thus, the payload restrictions hinder the use of the A350. The Colombian CAA is already working on solutions, so the January 1st schedule should work.


what obstacles ??? there's 2 runways in SKBO , so i really don't see the inconvenience for a obstacle ?


Several actually: Trees, buildings, antennas and even a hangar inside the airport built with excessive height. You name it, and they are there... :spin: At the moment, there are still around 36 flagged obstacles inside the flights' path distributed between the 4 ends of the 2 runways. Most of them should be gone by January, but there are some which will require a legal route before being removed, which tends to be quite slow in Colombia.

It is important to note that it is safe to operate, but the A350 would suffer heavy payload restrictions due to the climb gradient required. Most widebodies headed to Europe currently suffer some penalty...

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:38 am
by A388
If these obstacles are such a heavy toll on the A350 payload, how come all those 787-9's don't have a similar issue? It's not like the A350-900 is that much bigger compared to the 787-9? Why the difference?

A388

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:25 am
by tommy1808
A388 wrote:
If these obstacles are such a heavy toll on the A350 payload, how come all those 787-9's don't have a similar issue? It's not like the A350-900 is that much bigger compared to the 787-9? Why the difference?

A388


Depends on where those -9 fly to from BOG.

Best regards
Thomas

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:44 am
by seahawk
Operational reasons does not mean aircraft A can not fly the route, it usually means that using aircraft B on the route is better - maybe just because using aircraft B on another route would be less efficient. And like MEX with LH, it makes a lot of sense to keep the quads on the hot and high routes as long as you have them.

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:53 am
by Clydenairways
Maybe the A346 can carry more cargo in addition to a full pax load, so maybe the A346 will stay on these kind of airports until eventually replaced by the A350.

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:24 am
by airbazar
Clydenairways wrote:
Maybe the A346 can carry more cargo in addition to a full pax load, so maybe the A346 will stay on these kind of airports until eventually replaced by the A350.

The A346 is a beast out of high altitude airports. The A346 is to the widebodies what the B752 is to the narrowbodies when it comes to take-off performance at altitude. However, like the 752 it comes at a significant cost: high fuel consumption. So what it gains in payload, it gives away in fuel sort of.
A388 wrote:
If these obstacles are such a heavy toll on the A350 payload, how come all those 787-9's don't have a similar issue? It's not like the A350-900 is that much bigger compared to the 787-9? Why the difference?

What makes you think they don't have a similar issue? Only AF operates the 789 out of BOG to Europe. Everyone else is either 788 or A346. LH is the other airline operating the A346. Coincidence? AF has neither 788's nor A346's so they have to operate the next best thing.

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:25 pm
by danimarroquin
gbsgoulart wrote:
danimarroquin wrote:
gbsgoulart wrote:

It is actually due to some obstacles around BOG runways. Thus, the payload restrictions hinder the use of the A350. The Colombian CAA is already working on solutions, so the January 1st schedule should work.


what obstacles ??? there's 2 runways in SKBO , so i really don't see the inconvenience for a obstacle ?


Several actually: Trees, buildings, antennas and even a hangar inside the airport built with excessive height. You name it, and they are there... :spin: At the moment, there are still around 36 flagged obstacles inside the flights' path distributed between the 4 ends of the 2 runways. Most of them should be gone by January, but there are some which will require a legal route before being removed, which tends to be quite slow in Colombia.

It is important to note that it is safe to operate, but the A350 would suffer heavy payload restrictions due to the climb gradient required. Most widebodies headed to Europe currently suffer some penalty...



Those sound like recommendations made for better performance of the airport , not a restriction for the A350 to operate .
Besides , the A350-900 and 1000 where in bogota doing touch and go s with no problem .

What hangar are we talking about ? Do you have the source for this arguments ?

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:36 pm
by airbazar
danimarroquin wrote:
gbsgoulart wrote:
danimarroquin wrote:

what obstacles ??? there's 2 runways in SKBO , so i really don't see the inconvenience for a obstacle ?


Several actually: Trees, buildings, antennas and even a hangar inside the airport built with excessive height. You name it, and they are there... :spin: At the moment, there are still around 36 flagged obstacles inside the flights' path distributed between the 4 ends of the 2 runways. Most of them should be gone by January, but there are some which will require a legal route before being removed, which tends to be quite slow in Colombia.

It is important to note that it is safe to operate, but the A350 would suffer heavy payload restrictions due to the climb gradient required. Most widebodies headed to Europe currently suffer some penalty...



Those sound like recommendations made for better performance of the airport , not a restriction for the A350 to operate .
Besides , the A350-900 and 1000 where in bogota doing touch and go s with no problem .

What hangar are we talking about ? Do you have the source for this arguments ?


It could be airline specific. Different airlines have different clearance requirement.
For example, when JL started flying to BOS with the 788 the cranes from the container port that were on the take-off path had to be moved. That was a JL requirement. No one else required that.
https://images.app.goo.gl/xibcAg6k34D2eQdn8

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:08 am
by gbsgoulart
danimarroquin wrote:

Those sound like recommendations made for better performance of the airport , not a restriction for the A350 to operate .
Besides , the A350-900 and 1000 where in bogota doing touch and go s with no problem .

What hangar are we talking about ? Do you have the source for this arguments ?


Yes I do. Can't quite reveal everything, but here are some pics and draws that can illustrate the issue. One of the pics belongs to the Hangar in question.

And you are right about the A350 flights in BOG... But again, the aircraft can operate, but it is not efficient, as correctly pointed out by @airbazar. Also important to notice, those obstacles were published by the CAA just a couple of months ago. When IB decided to bring the A350, they were not published yet, so that's why they had to push back the dates.

https://imgur.com/a/ExjEES6

P.D: Multiple edits, because I can't post pics :lol: .. sorry, this is my 3rd post on A.net, after many years as a lurker...

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:55 pm
by Summa767
gbsgoulart wrote:
danimarroquin wrote:

Those sound like recommendations made for better performance of the airport , not a restriction for the A350 to operate .
Besides , the A350-900 and 1000 where in bogota doing touch and go s with no problem .

What hangar are we talking about ? Do you have the source for this arguments ?


Yes I do. Can't quite reveal everything, but here are some pics and draws that can illustrate the issue. One of the pics belongs to the Hangar in question.

And you are right about the A350 flights in BOG... But again, the aircraft can operate, but it is not efficient, as correctly pointed out by @airbazar. Also important to notice, those obstacles were published by the CAA just a couple of months ago. When IB decided to bring the A350, they were not published yet, so that's why they had to push back the dates.

https://imgur.com/a/ExjEES6

P.D: Multiple edits, because I can't post pics :lol: .. sorry, this is my 3rd post on A.net, after many years as a lurker...


Thank you very much for such illustrative contribution.
It's quite an eye opener for many of us that even a the height of a hanger to the side of the runway can have an impact on an aircraft's operations planning.

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:14 pm
by dcajet
And Iberia's A350s won't be seen at BOG anytime soon. With the airline announcing today new destinations for its A350s (LAX & NRT), BOG has been quietly taken off the list for the time being. It appears that the obstacles' removal may be taking longer than anticipated.

https://grupo.iberia.es/news/13112019/e ... washington

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:51 pm
by EddieDude
dcajet wrote:
The airline only has said the delay is due to "operational reasons" so make what you'd like of it. It is only a 75-day long postponement, not sure what could change with the A350s in that period of time. I am not aware of the reasons why LH went back to the A346 on the MUC-MEX run.

Operational reasons could also mean they want to allocate the A359s that have been received to other routes.

Jomar777 wrote:
IB's GRU offer is the worst one between Air Europa (B789), Latam (B77W) and Air China (B789)

With respect to what? IB usually has good catering. And 2-4-2 in economy is way better than 3-3-3 or 3-4-3. IB's A346 have also been refurbished and their business class has lie-flat seats in a 1-2-1 configuration. Or are you thinking of the attitude of flight attendants? Or schedules?

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:38 pm
by Armodeen
dcajet wrote:
And Iberia's A350s won't be seen at BOG anytime soon. With the airline announcing today new destinations for its A350s (LAX & NRT), BOG has been quietly taken off the list for the time being. It appears that the obstacles' removal may be taking longer than anticipated.

https://grupo.iberia.es/news/13112019/e ... washington


Co-incidence that IB also today announced a plan to keep 5 x A346’s in the fleet until 2025?

Re: Iberia postpones A350 deployment on the MAD-BOG route

Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:30 pm
by dcajet
EddieDude wrote:
dcajet wrote:
The airline only has said the delay is due to "operational reasons" so make what you'd like of it. It is only a 75-day long postponement, not sure what could change with the A350s in that period of time. I am not aware of the reasons why LH went back to the A346 on the MUC-MEX run.

Operational reasons could also mean they want to allocate the A359s that have been received to other routes.

Jomar777 wrote:
IB's GRU offer is the worst one between Air Europa (B789), Latam (B77W) and Air China (B789)

With respect to what? IB usually has good catering. And 2-4-2 in economy is way better than 3-3-3 or 3-4-3. IB's A346 have also been refurbished and their business class has lie-flat seats in a 1-2-1 configuration. Or are you thinking of the attitude of flight attendants? Or schedules?


If you read the whole thread you'll find out the reasons why Iberia is not sending the A350 to BOG yet. Those reasons continue to exist.