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airbazar
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Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:42 am

The other topic on this forum "Lufthansa loses No-Show lawsuit - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1432439", prompted me to post this.

A court in Portugal has penalized Easyjet 125,000 Euros for failing to compensate a passenger the value of 250 Euros because of a canceled flight due to weather delays.

https://24.sapo.pt/atualidade/artigos/e ... passageira
This article is in Portuguese only but I'll re-cap.

- Flight LIS-NTE diverts due to weather in Nantes. The return flight, NTE-LIS is canceled.
- That plane was supposed to operate LIS-MAD but since it never returned from Nantes there's no aircraft to operate the flight so LIS-MAD is also canceled.
- Passenger requests compensation for canceled flight. Easyjet refuses claiming the cancellation was weather related.
- Passenger files a complaint. Court rules that since there was no bad weather event either in LIS or MAD that Easyjet can't claim the bad weather in Nantes as a valid excuse.

I can't tell you how many flights I've had cancelled or delayed due to the domino effect of bad weather far away from where I'm flying from/to. If this sets a precedent, along with the above LH no-show ruling it will likely have a huge impact on the way airlines operate.
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:22 am

If only the US would adopt such customer friendly rules and regulations. Perhaps then AA wouldn’t be the basket case they are today.
 
einkleinerknabe
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:42 am

The end result of this ruling would be airlines being less likely to divert -- meaning potentially more landings in poor conditions. I don't see that as a positive thing.
Without knowing the circumstances of this particular flight -- were conditions bad in Nantes when the plane left Lisbon? -- it's hard to know exactly what Easyjet should have done differently (cancel LIS-NTE and NTE-LIS so they would have a plane for the LIS-MAD flight, maybe).
 
MHG
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:57 am

The problem here is that we all know many airlines are easy to abuse the "weather related" excuse and there´s no clear line between weather related and operationally related.
The question is where do you want to draw the line ?
Of course weather related turns often into operationally related (as in this case) but on the other hand an airline must be prepared to cope with that (back-up) not reduce redundancy too much.
If that raises costs to some degree then that has to be part of the ticket you pay, obviously (and it does not increase fares as much as some make us believe).

Back to this case I am pretty sure that there´s more to it than just a failure to pay compensation.
Easyjet apparently decided to operate the NTE rotation with the risk having to divert (being well aware of the likely resulting domino effect).
So, Cancelling the NTE rotation would have allowed them to get away without compensations due.

They certaily did the math what is cheaper: lost revenue on the NTE rotation or gambling on the number passengers to MAD that actually would file a compensation claim ...
This time however they got "caught" ...
I - suspect - that the court found that Easyjet has failed too many times adhering to the related regulations and needs to be stopped from continuing that practice.
Flying is not inherently dangerous but it is very unforgiving in case of carelessness, incapacity or neglect.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:12 am

Good. I have been on legacy airlines who proactively rebooked me due to similar situations. The low cost airlines have to be forced to play under the same rules.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:10 am

When i worked for Southwest (the darling of a.net) we never ever gave compensation for weather. Even if the particular flight I was working was part of the domino effect.

You cant change nature, you can only let it run its course. While I usually do agree with consumer friendly laws and court rulings, weather delays and other "acts of God" shouldnt be the reason for compensation.

And to the poster who mentioned AA, if the US airlines were required to give compensation for weather, ALL the airlines would be out of business.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
vahancrazy
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:29 am

TWA772LR wrote:
[...]
You cant change nature, you can only let it run its course. While I usually do agree with consumer friendly laws and court rulings, weather delays and other "acts of God" shouldnt be the reason for compensation.[...]
.


Hei TWA772LR,

I understand your point. While legitimate, I think it is exactly what differentiate a good company from an excellent one.
A good one does everything properly. Then, something happens but it is not company fault, the company stays quiet.
An excellent company, instead, goes beyond and think for its customers best interest before the customers activate; the company knows this part of the game and keeps it into account.


Just my two cents
 
MHG
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:34 am

vahancrazy wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
[...]
You cant change nature, you can only let it run its course. While I usually do agree with consumer friendly laws and court rulings, weather delays and other "acts of God" shouldnt be the reason for compensation.[...]
.


Hei TWA772LR,

I understand your point. While legitimate, I think it is exactly what differentiate a good company from an excellent one.
A good one does everything properly. Then, something happens but it is not company fault, the company stays quiet.
An excellent company, instead, goes beyond and think for its customers best interest before the customers activate; the company knows this part of the game and keeps it into account.


Just my two cents

That is exactly my point as said in my post #
Flying is not inherently dangerous but it is very unforgiving in case of carelessness, incapacity or neglect.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:44 am

TWA772LR wrote:
When i worked for Southwest (the darling of a.net) we never ever gave compensation for weather. Even if the particular flight I was working was part of the domino effect.

You cant change nature, you can only let it run its course. While I usually do agree with consumer friendly laws and court rulings, weather delays and other "acts of God" shouldnt be the reason for compensation.

And to the poster who mentioned AA, if the US airlines were required to give compensation for weather, ALL the airlines would be out of business.


You are right, but this is not about flights affected directly by weather. It is about subsequent flights that day. Airlines are not allowed to simply get away with delaying every flight for an entire day just because the first flight of the day ran into foul weather. That EasyJet plane could have been scheduled to do 12 flights that day.
This will force the cheapo airlines to schedule some more space in between flights and have more spare planes standing by, as well as giving them an incentive to proactively rebook onto other airlines when trouble occurs.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:40 am

einkleinerknabe wrote:
it's hard to know exactly what Easyjet should have done differently (cancel LIS-NTE and NTE-LIS so they would have a plane for the LIS-MAD flight, maybe).

Well, Easyjet had several options:
- Cancel LIS-NTE proactively so that LIS-MAD is possible
- Rebook passengers on another carrier or ground transportation
- Charter a replacement aircraft
- Have some slack in the schedule so that the delay from the diversion doesn't lead to the cancellation of subsequent flights
- Have standby capacity in LIS or send in an aircraft from elsewhere to operate LIS-MAD instead
- Pay the cancellation compensation

They chose to do none of the above.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:08 am

airbazar wrote:
The other topic on this forum "Lufthansa loses No-Show lawsuit - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1432439", prompted me to post this.

A court in Portugal has penalized Easyjet 125,000 Euros for failing to compensate a passenger the value of 250 Euros because of a canceled flight due to weather delays.

https://24.sapo.pt/atualidade/artigos/e ... passageira
This article is in Portuguese only but I'll re-cap.

- Flight LIS-NTE diverts due to weather in Nantes. The return flight, NTE-LIS is canceled.
- That plane was supposed to operate LIS-MAD but since it never returned from Nantes there's no aircraft to operate the flight so LIS-MAD is also canceled.
- Passenger requests compensation for canceled flight. Easyjet refuses claiming the cancellation was weather related.
- Passenger files a complaint. Court rules that since there was no bad weather event either in LIS or MAD that Easyjet can't claim the bad weather in Nantes as a valid excuse.

I can't tell you how many flights I've had cancelled or delayed due to the domino effect of bad weather far away from where I'm flying from/to. If this sets a precedent, along with the above LH no-show ruling it will likely have a huge impact on the way airlines operate.

This is simple 7. you cannot cancel a routing that did not sustain a WX related Delay, If the Delay was PHL-SFO and the SFO leg was cancelled due to WX? Wherever the plane is scheduled after that? Is NOT due to the WX on the previous leg. And the passengers have a reasonable expectation they should have a plane to get where they're going. That weather somewhere Else? Is Not their Problem nor their fault,
 
Turnhouse1
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:09 am

There are a few questions here:

Did they offer to rebook the passengers on TAP/Iberia/whoever to get them from LIS to MAD? This would have seemed a reasonable alternative if it was within 3 hours, I'm sure there are plenty flights on that route.
The flight to NTE diverted, but couldn't it fly back to LIS from where-ever it landed, even if empty to continue the day's schedule?
 
debonair
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:28 am

airbazar wrote:
If this sets a precedent, along with the above LH no-show ruling it will likely have a huge impact on the way airlines operate.


No, that is NOT true all. In the past the same happened to other airlines as well and all had to pay. I remember a case against Ryanair, cancelling the last flight of the day (as the curfew was setting in), because the first flight of the day was delayed due to fog. The courts verdict was very simple; a professional airline can expect operational disruptions by weather etc. and so needs some sort of back-up. Therefore, Ryanair was forced to pay.

Turnhouse1 wrote:
There are a few questions here:

Did they offer to rebook the passengers on TAP/Iberia/whoever to get them from LIS to MAD? This would have seemed a reasonable alternative if it was within 3 hours, I'm sure there are plenty flights on that route.


easyjet is NOT rebooking passengers onto other carriers. Period! Passengers can choose between a full refund or a rebooking on the next available easyjet flight, simple as that. However, if easyjet fails to provide the rebooking (as all of the flights within a specific period are already fully booked), passengers can rebook themselves and claim the expenses from easyjet.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:37 am

The thread title is wrong.

easyJet declare the flight cancellation weather related. The court declared that easyJet could not prove that.

So easyJet tried fraudulent to declare a not weather related cancellation as weather related. Simple as that.

The impact will be that airlines should stop lying about the real reasons when they cancel flights and stop using weather as an excuse.
 
f4f3a
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:53 am

I don’t believe they lied about the cause bein weather related . The issue is that under eu law it has been interpreted that the fact that airlines use aircraft to fly to more than one place in a day doesn’t count . EasyJet does have spare aircraft but i imagine on the day these had been used . This ruling isn’t new they lost a case that was similar during the snow in uk where a/c had got stuck but route cancelled was ok . I personally think air traffic is being held up to a much higher standard than by road or rail where they can do what they want. Also with other outside factors ATC delays and strikes airlines count the cost and are not reimbursed . All these rules will lead to more airlines going bankrupt and ticket prices rocketing
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:48 am

f4f3a wrote:
I don’t believe they lied about the cause bein weather related . The issue is that under eu law it has been interpreted that the fact that airlines use aircraft to fly to more than one place in a day doesn’t count . EasyJet does have spare aircraft but i imagine on the day these had been used . This ruling isn’t new they lost a case that was similar during the snow in uk where a/c had got stuck but route cancelled was ok . I personally think air traffic is being held up to a much higher standard than by road or rail where they can do what they want. Also with other outside factors ATC delays and strikes airlines count the cost and are not reimbursed . All these rules will lead to more airlines going bankrupt and ticket prices rocketing


Airlines have been lying a lot about the reasons for delays. You call it weather and you did not have to pay compensation. Airlines are greedy, if lying helps to make more money, they will lie to passengers.

Every time airlines are held to a standard, they scream that ticket prices will rock up, they do not do it.

Airlines mainly go under when they are badly led or the environment the airline operates in changes drastically.

Let us look at a simple example. An aircraft leaves an airport 2 hours delayed. It arrives 1 hour 40 minutes late at the destination. No gate available. The flight waits an the taxiway for 2 hours while other flights come and leave Whole flight delay is 3 hours 40 minutes. The airline claims the whole delay as weather related. They are simply lying. Half of the delay is operations. The airline operations center should know of the delay when it occurs and should have worked on solutions to the gate space while the airplane is in the air. For what is information flow and computers.
Airlines have to expect delays, they have to have reserves, both in gate space as well as in spare aircraft
 
f4f3a
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:36 am

If you take an airport like ams there is no gate space . So when a/c are out of sequence what do you want them to do magic up space that isn’t there . Completely unworkable . Airlines work on tight margins . Profit per seat is little more than a couple of Euro’s . A lot of the issue is airspace infrastructure that causes delays . There is no forward planning . An airline wants to run a flight from a to b as long as there is a space at either airport to park they can do so without anything being planned for the En route . All of this is done by euro control on the day . This equal massive slots for everyone . The whole process needs addressing
 
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GCT64
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:42 am

debonair wrote:
easyjet is NOT rebooking passengers onto other carriers. Period! Passengers can choose between a full refund or a rebooking on the next available easyjet flight, simple as that. However, if easyjet fails to provide the rebooking (as all of the flights within a specific period are already fully booked), passengers can rebook themselves and claim the expenses from easyjet.


I believe that under EU261, Easyjet should be rebooking pax onto other airlines.
Article 8(b) says that pax have a choice including:
"(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity; or"
It doesn't say anything about the re-routing being on the operating air carrier, just that it must be at the "earliest opportunity".
I do realise that most of Easy's routes do not have any direct competition, but where they do I believe they are obliged to rebook onto other airlines (although these days those other planes are probably already full already!).
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
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GCT64
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:46 am

f4f3a wrote:
I personally think air traffic is being held up to a much higher standard than by road or rail where they can do what they want. Also with other outside factors ATC delays and strikes airlines count the cost and are not reimbursed . All these rules will lead to more airlines going bankrupt and ticket prices rocketing


Certainly in the UK, rail delays also attract compensation or refunds under a wide range of circumstances. I don't know about other EU countries.
The one mode of transport that doesn't is road travel using your car.
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
mxaxai
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:13 pm

GCT64 wrote:
f4f3a wrote:
I personally think air traffic is being held up to a much higher standard than by road or rail where they can do what they want. Also with other outside factors ATC delays and strikes airlines count the cost and are not reimbursed . All these rules will lead to more airlines going bankrupt and ticket prices rocketing


Certainly in the UK, rail delays also attract compensation or refunds under a wide range of circumstances. I don't know about other EU countries.
The one mode of transport that doesn't is road travel using your car.

On German trains, you get refunded 25% / 50% of the ticket price for 1 h / 2 h delay, regardless of cause. I think this rule applies to all of the EU, just like the compensation rule for airlines. https://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes/passengers_en
Last edited by mxaxai on Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:14 pm

einkleinerknabe wrote:
The end result of this ruling would be airlines being less likely to divert -- meaning potentially more landings in poor conditions. I don't see that as a positive thing.
Without knowing the circumstances of this particular flight -- were conditions bad in Nantes when the plane left Lisbon? -- it's hard to know exactly what Easyjet should have done differently (cancel LIS-NTE and NTE-LIS so they would have a plane for the LIS-MAD flight, maybe).


I think it is a bit of a stretch to say that airlines will be less likely to divert if an airplane is enroute in poor conditions. Pilots usually don’t have much discretion when it comes to diversion based on the impact of cancellation penalties.

What I think will happen is that airlines May cancel a flight if conditions at the intended destination are marginal. If the airline needs to protect the rest of the schedule, they will avoid flying under marginal conditions. It’s cheaper to pay penalties for two flights than for a whole days worth of flying.

They may also be more likely to do air returns back to the origin instead of alternates. For example, if they are halfway to the destination and conditions are reported to be below minimums for landing, they may go back to the origin and cancel the flight to protect the rest of the schedule instead of diverting to their alternate and waiting it out.
 
DAL763ER
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:40 pm

The title of this thread is misleading. The cancellation was not weather related, but operational - easyJet did not have a plane to operate the flight due to it being stuck somewhere for weather reasons. The flight itself wasn't cancelled for weather. So yes, easyJet should pay.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:03 pm

mxaxai wrote:
On German trains, you get refunded 25% / 50% of the ticket price for 1 h / 2 h delay, regardless of cause. I think this rule applies to all of the EU, just like the compensation rule for airlines. https://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes/passengers_en


That is the minimum mandatory compensation. I know for Denmark it starts at 30 minutes, culminating with 100% at 2 hours.

But actually getting them to pay out is a different matter. On DB they hand out delay slips and help you full them out. On DSB they try to ignore you.
 
Insertnamehere
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:36 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
If only the US would adopt such customer friendly rules and regulations. Perhaps then AA wouldn’t be the basket case they are today.

Who knew diverting a flight doing ORD-LHR to Dallas was customer unfriendly?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:42 pm

debonair wrote:
airbazar wrote:
If this sets a precedent, along with the above LH no-show ruling it will likely have a huge impact on the way airlines operate.


No, that is NOT true all. In the past the same happened to other airlines as well and all had to pay. I remember a case against Ryanair, cancelling the last flight of the day (as the curfew was setting in), because the first flight of the day was delayed due to fog. The courts verdict was very simple; a professional airline can expect operational disruptions by weather etc. and so needs some sort of back-up. Therefore, Ryanair was forced to pay.


That may the the law and practice in the EU, but U.S. law doesn't make the same demand. U.S. carriers routinely play the weather card (even for flight segments not landing/departing in areas with weather) to avoid formal Duty of Care provisions.
 
AirFrance744
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:45 pm

MHG wrote:
The problem here is that we all know many airlines are easy to abuse the "weather related" excuse and there´s no clear line between weather related and operationally related.
The question is where do you want to draw the line ?
Of course weather related turns often into operationally related (as in this case) but on the other hand an airline must be prepared to cope with that (back-up) not reduce redundancy too much.


I have struggled with the question of what is a weather related delay and what is an operational related delay for many years. I think about it every time one of my flights is delayed due to bad weather somewhere I'm not flying from, to, or connecting through. I have not been able to come to a proper conclusion, but I will share my thoughts.

For the passenger: There is an understanding that if there is poor weather at the origin or destination airport, that there will likely be a delay due to lower departure or arrival rates or even a cancellation if flying conditions are deemed unsafe. However, if flying conditions are safe and the weather is fine at the arrival and departure airports, then there is full expectation of service, and that service should be provided. After all, part of what the customer paid for was the time of the flight, and they may have paid a significant premium over other flight times to arrive or depart at a certain time.

For the airline: There are time and space considerations to be made. This may sound a bit philosophical, but there are similarities and differences to how airlines operate flights and how someone drives around. Take the example of the person who drives to a bar, has too much to drink and then can't drive home. A friend drives them home, but their car is left at the bar overnight. In this very simple network (fleet size of one) the challenge comes the next morning when the person has to figure out how to fix the spatial relationship between them and their car. Now, there are a number of options for this person including using their friend again, using a TNC, calling a taxi, etc.
However, airlines don't just fly places in the same way a person drives their car, in that airlines operate a large complex network and their options for fixing a spatial relationship problem are further constrained by time and less options compared to the person in then example. To impose a fine on the airlines for not being able to resolve this problem, is to not understand the nature of airlines, and instead pretend that an operational change could fix the problem 100% of the time. Once again, airlines don't fly routes, they fly networks. Networks are very difficult (but not impossible) to plan and change on a dime.

Ultimately, I feel for the passenger, as I have been stuck in that situation many times, but the time and space logistics of what can and can't be done decide the outcome of the situation.
Flown over 150,000 miles! Native Bostonian living in Orlando.
 
Turnhouse1
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:46 pm

GCT64 wrote:
debonair wrote:
easyjet is NOT rebooking passengers onto other carriers. Period! Passengers can choose between a full refund or a rebooking on the next available easyjet flight, simple as that. However, if easyjet fails to provide the rebooking (as all of the flights within a specific period are already fully booked), passengers can rebook themselves and claim the expenses from easyjet.


I believe that under EU261, Easyjet should be rebooking pax onto other airlines.
Article 8(b) says that pax have a choice including:
"(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity; or"
It doesn't say anything about the re-routing being on the operating air carrier, just that it must be at the "earliest opportunity".
I do realise that most of Easy's routes do not have any direct competition, but where they do I believe they are obliged to rebook onto other airlines (although these days those other planes are probably already full already!).


Indeed, the weather would absolve EasyJet of the requirement to pay cash compensation, but under EU261 they are still required to provide replacement travel, and food and accommodation until that is available.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:47 pm

f4f3a wrote:
If you take an airport like ams there is no gate space . So when a/c are out of sequence what do you want them to do magic up space that isn’t there . Completely unworkable . Airlines work on tight margins . Profit per seat is little more than a couple of Euro’s . A lot of the issue is airspace infrastructure that causes delays . There is no forward planning . An airline wants to run a flight from a to b as long as there is a space at either airport to park they can do so without anything being planned for the En route . All of this is done by euro control on the day . This equal massive slots for everyone . The whole process needs addressing


Excuses, excuses and excuses. The delayed flight they can claim is weather delayed, gets the shitty end of the stick. If it is infrastructure causing the delay, do call it that.
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:26 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
clrd4t8koff wrote:
If only the US would adopt such customer friendly rules and regulations. Perhaps then AA wouldn’t be the basket case they are today.

Who knew diverting a flight doing ORD-LHR to Dallas was customer unfriendly?


Clearly not AA
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:42 pm

Or airlines could calculate just how much it costs them to ensure passengers reach their paid-for destinations. Tickets could be priced to ensure arrival in X number of hours, within 2 hours more expensive than 24 hours for example. Major disruptions (record blizzards, volcanoes etc) would be handled per EU regulations.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
ikramerica
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:02 pm

Since the return flight was canceled and the outbound diverted, why wasn’t that aircraft ferried back to LIS from the diversion point?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
kimimm19
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:08 pm

It's time airlines are held accountable for weather delays. They choose to operate a business that is affected by weather, not unlike say satellite TV and internet services.
 
DWC
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Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:02 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
When i worked for Southwest (the darling of a.net) we never ever gave compensation for weather. Even if the particular flight I was working was part of the domino effect.
You cant change nature, you can only let it run its course. While I usually do agree with consumer friendly laws and court rulings, weather delays and other "acts of God" shouldnt be the reason for compensation.
And to the poster who mentioned AA, if the US airlines were required to give compensation for weather, ALL the airlines would be out of business.

Man, what kind of society do you live in ?
1. People have to care more about people than their bucks, how petty if you only cared to think a little more what life is about.
2. PAX paid for their tickets, it is immoral of airlines to keep their money and invoke the weather : it is theft
3. In addition, airlines have insurances against weather related problems. What they do is their decision, fly the plane or not, that is why it is a profession, to take responsibilities & not to milk PAX any further.
4. Last, most US airlines are healthily profitable, not like others that have been folding lately.

I for one was ripped off by AA, unduly overcharged, which earned them my eternal resentment & commitment to make sure it be known so PAX fly with the competition, perhaps DL but then DL is getting way too big and may play oligopoly anytime ( which they do here & there ).

The EU aviation market is more competitive than the US because they ( still ) have more actors ( companies ), true enough with more hit & misses like all the recent bankrupcies have shown. Yet these are NEVER due to compensation, which are pennies in the grand scheme of a company overall budget. If they can't factor that in, they should go bust. So should Alitalia, but that is another subject ;)
 
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Aesma
Posts: 13393
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:35 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I think it is a bit of a stretch to say that airlines will be less likely to divert if an airplane is enroute in poor conditions. Pilots usually don’t have much discretion when it comes to diversion based on the impact of cancellation penalties.

What I think will happen is that airlines May cancel a flight if conditions at the intended destination are marginal. If the airline needs to protect the rest of the schedule, they will avoid flying under marginal conditions. It’s cheaper to pay penalties for two flights than for a whole days worth of flying.

They may also be more likely to do air returns back to the origin instead of alternates. For example, if they are halfway to the destination and conditions are reported to be below minimums for landing, they may go back to the origin and cancel the flight to protect the rest of the schedule instead of diverting to their alternate and waiting it out.


Well unless somehow that first flight brings lots of money and the other flights of the day don't, that seems like the best thing to do operationally too.

The only problem is that the passengers might expect to land at an alternate not too far from the destination, and will not understand why they're back at their departure airport.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
Posts: 13393
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:45 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
That may the the law and practice in the EU, but U.S. law doesn't make the same demand. U.S. carriers routinely play the weather card (even for flight segments not landing/departing in areas with weather) to avoid formal Duty of Care provisions.


So the airline can cancel and just give you your money back, without doing anything else for you ?

In the EU they must offer rerouting.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5092
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:46 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
f4f3a wrote:
I don’t believe they lied about the cause bein weather related . The issue is that under eu law it has been interpreted that the fact that airlines use aircraft to fly to more than one place in a day doesn’t count . EasyJet does have spare aircraft but i imagine on the day these had been used . This ruling isn’t new they lost a case that was similar during the snow in uk where a/c had got stuck but route cancelled was ok . I personally think air traffic is being held up to a much higher standard than by road or rail where they can do what they want. Also with other outside factors ATC delays and strikes airlines count the cost and are not reimbursed . All these rules will lead to more airlines going bankrupt and ticket prices rocketing


Airlines have been lying a lot about the reasons for delays. You call it weather and you did not have to pay compensation. Airlines are greedy, if lying helps to make more money, they will lie to passengers.

Every time airlines are held to a standard, they scream that ticket prices will rock up, they do not do it.

Airlines mainly go under when they are badly led or the environment the airline operates in changes drastically.

Let us look at a simple example. An aircraft leaves an airport 2 hours delayed. It arrives 1 hour 40 minutes late at the destination. No gate available. The flight waits an the taxiway for 2 hours while other flights come and leave Whole flight delay is 3 hours 40 minutes. The airline claims the whole delay as weather related. They are simply lying. Half of the delay is operations. The airline operations center should know of the delay when it occurs and should have worked on solutions to the gate space while the airplane is in the air. For what is information flow and computers.
Airlines have to expect delays, they have to have reserves, both in gate space as well as in spare aircraft

Theres a rune called Double Intensity. If your fight departs Late from One place and is delayed getting a gate longer than it was originally delayed? Then the Delay is on the Airline WX related or NOT!! They should have made room for the airplane to arrive and deplae EVEN if they had to borrow a gate from another airline to deplane the passengers.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14629
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:50 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
f4f3a wrote:
I don’t believe they lied about the cause bein weather related . The issue is that under eu law it has been interpreted that the fact that airlines use aircraft to fly to more than one place in a day doesn’t count . EasyJet does have spare aircraft but i imagine on the day these had been used . This ruling isn’t new they lost a case that was similar during the snow in uk where a/c had got stuck but route cancelled was ok . I personally think air traffic is being held up to a much higher standard than by road or rail where they can do what they want. Also with other outside factors ATC delays and strikes airlines count the cost and are not reimbursed . All these rules will lead to more airlines going bankrupt and ticket prices rocketing


Airlines have been lying a lot about the reasons for delays. You call it weather and you did not have to pay compensation. Airlines are greedy, if lying helps to make more money, they will lie to passengers.

Every time airlines are held to a standard, they scream that ticket prices will rock up, they do not do it.

Airlines mainly go under when they are badly led or the environment the airline operates in changes drastically.

Let us look at a simple example. An aircraft leaves an airport 2 hours delayed. It arrives 1 hour 40 minutes late at the destination. No gate available. The flight waits an the taxiway for 2 hours while other flights come and leave Whole flight delay is 3 hours 40 minutes. The airline claims the whole delay as weather related. They are simply lying. Half of the delay is operations. The airline operations center should know of the delay when it occurs and should have worked on solutions to the gate space while the airplane is in the air. For what is information flow and computers.
Airlines have to expect delays, they have to have reserves, both in gate space as well as in spare aircraft

Theres a rune called Double Intensity. If your fight departs Late from One place and is delayed getting a gate longer than it was originally delayed? Then the Delay is on the Airline WX related or NOT!! They should have made room for the airplane to arrive and deplae EVEN if they had to borrow a gate from another airline to deplane the passengers.


What? What if ATC holds the plane for flow control? What if there’s enroute w/x requiring a reroute? I could go on . . .
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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TWA772LR
Posts: 7347
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:34 pm

DWC wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
When i worked for Southwest (the darling of a.net) we never ever gave compensation for weather. Even if the particular flight I was working was part of the domino effect.
You cant change nature, you can only let it run its course. While I usually do agree with consumer friendly laws and court rulings, weather delays and other "acts of God" shouldnt be the reason for compensation.
And to the poster who mentioned AA, if the US airlines were required to give compensation for weather, ALL the airlines would be out of business.

Man, what kind of society do you live in ?
1. People have to care more about people than their bucks, how petty if you only cared to think a little more what life is about.
2. PAX paid for their tickets, it is immoral of airlines to keep their money and invoke the weather : it is theft
3. In addition, airlines have insurances against weather related problems. What they do is their decision, fly the plane or not, that is why it is a profession, to take responsibilities & not to milk PAX any further.
4. Last, most US airlines are healthily profitable, not like others that have been folding lately.

I for one was ripped off by AA, unduly overcharged, which earned them my eternal resentment & commitment to make sure it be known so PAX fly with the competition, perhaps DL but then DL is getting way too big and may play oligopoly anytime ( which they do here & there ).

The EU aviation market is more competitive than the US because they ( still ) have more actors ( companies ), true enough with more hit & misses like all the recent bankrupcies have shown. Yet these are NEVER due to compensation, which are pennies in the grand scheme of a company overall budget. If they can't factor that in, they should go bust. So should Alitalia, but that is another subject ;)

Who said we never rebooked customers? Who said we never tried to find a spare plane to cover the cities affected in the domino effect? Who said we never rebooked the customers in the domino effect city? Who said we never fully refunded the customers that decided not to fly?

Lastly, who said the airline can operate in the weather effected area when the FAA says we couldn't?
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
veeseeten
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:50 am

Re: Easyjet forced to compensate for weather related cancellation

Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:09 am

debonair wrote:
easyjet is NOT rebooking passengers onto other carriers. Period!


That’s not actually true - EZY has disruption agreements with Ryanair, Jet2, Norwegian and a number of other carriers.

Such contracts are very common (some carriers use Interline MITA’s for it, others a straight ad-hoc seat purchase deal) and with a tougher CAA mandate proposed for 24hr turnaround of disrupted pax, you’ll likely see more and more of them.

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