Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Boston757
Topic Author
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:39 pm

JBU Boston-London

Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:36 pm

Now that JBL is planning on flying to the UK, where are they on their ETOPs certificate. Secondly what city did they choose to fly in the UK, they had said their going to LHR Is that definite , and did they purchase a number of slots ?

Cheers
 
User avatar
adamblang
Posts: 1250
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:47 pm

Re: JBL Boston-London

Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:01 pm

As of last month, JetBlue is looking at Heathrow, Gatwick, Luton and Stansted as potential arrival points, and may fly into multiple London-area airports, but hasn't made any decisions: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ts-460714/

Also, JetBlue is B6 (IATA) or JBU (ICAO) but not JBL.
 
massachoicetts
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:23 pm

Re: JBL Boston-London

Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:36 pm

Its going to be interesting to see what happens in the BOS-LON Market with now 10 daily departures going from next summer. 8 to Heathrow and 2 to Gatwick. Capacity this year will be roughly ~1,350,000 with 1,100,000 LHR capacity and ~200k LGW capacity. With AA back in the market, and the 380 back next summer there wil be a grand ole capacity roughly at 1,600,000 overall. Where will this leave B6? Seems like an oversaturated market.
 
ahj2000
Posts: 1230
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:34 pm

Re: JBL Boston-London

Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:08 pm

massachoicetts wrote:
Its going to be interesting to see what happens in the BOS-LON Market with now 10 daily departures going from next summer. 8 to Heathrow and 2 to Gatwick. Capacity this year will be roughly ~1,350,000 with 1,100,000 LHR capacity and ~200k LGW capacity. With AA back in the market, and the 380 back next summer there wil be a grand ole capacity roughly at 1,600,000 overall. Where will this leave B6? Seems like an oversaturated market.

Do realize though that B6 and DL will aslo use these to offer connections across the country. This won't all be O/D. However, BOS-LON is a huge market, and can probably take most of this traffic. The fact that BA/AA feels the need to add an AA 777 and uprgrade to A380 again says a ton about the market conditions.
-Andrés Juánez
 
User avatar
ChrisNH38
Posts: 255
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:53 pm

Re: JBL Boston-London

Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:43 pm

B6 can’t just ‘decide’ it wants to go to Heathrow, right? It’s all about the slots there. Also, they can’t arbitrarily ‘choose’ their times, either.
https://my.flightradar24.com/ChrisNH
 
tphuang
Posts: 5172
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:27 am

Boston757 wrote:
Now that JBL is planning on flying to the UK, where are they on their ETOPs certificate. Secondly what city did they choose to fly in the UK, they had said their going to LHR Is that definite , and did they purchase a number of slots ?

Cheers

if you look at the charts they posted, other UK cities would be MAN, EDI and BFL that they might be interested in.

They made the announcement with about as little clarity as possible, since everyone and their mother know they are going to London as soon as they pick up the A321LR option.

My guess is that LGW slots are pretty easy to pick up with TCX demise and the likely down fall of DY. Let's see if they can get LHR slots.

As for saturated market, check BOS-LAX. That's the most saturated domestic transcon market. They are making money there when no one else is.

They have a very low cost product with very few seats they need to fill and strong point of sale at BOS. It's hard to imagine they can't fill 3 flights of A321s with 140 seat each when that's fewer seat than 1 BA A380.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26212
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: JBL Boston-London

Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:34 am

ahj2000 wrote:
massachoicetts wrote:
Its going to be interesting to see what happens in the BOS-LON Market with now 10 daily departures going from next summer. 8 to Heathrow and 2 to Gatwick. Capacity this year will be roughly ~1,350,000 with 1,100,000 LHR capacity and ~200k LGW capacity. With AA back in the market, and the 380 back next summer there wil be a grand ole capacity roughly at 1,600,000 overall. Where will this leave B6? Seems like an oversaturated market.

Do realize though that B6 and DL will aslo use these to offer connections across the country. This won't all be O/D. However, BOS-LON is a huge market, and can probably take most of this traffic. The fact that BA/AA feels the need to add an AA 777 and uprgrade to A380 again says a ton about the market conditions.


It’s a huge market, yes, but not that big. It’s very overserved. It’s smaller than LA, SF, Orlando or Miami to London. But that’s not unique to Boston-London. It’s happening in a lot of markets, including the other London markets I mentioned.
a.
 
rnav2dlrey
Posts: 382
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:10 am

Re: JBL Boston-London

Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:32 am

ChrisNH38 wrote:
B6 can’t just ‘decide’ it wants to go to Heathrow, right? It’s all about the slots there. Also, they can’t arbitrarily ‘choose’ their times, either.


correct. a deal will have to be made for slots at LHR.
 
Boston757
Topic Author
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:02 pm

In regards to JetBlue being on the QT on their all hands on deck announcement, being advise so to speak doesn’t keep United, Delta or American from knowing what’s up over there. It keeps joe blow in the dark but definitely not them.
 
Boston757
Topic Author
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:02 pm

In regards to JetBlue being on the QT on their all hands on deck announcement, being advise so to speak doesn’t keep United, Delta or American from knowing what’s up over there. It keeps joe blow in the dark but definitely not them.
 
User avatar
GCT64
Posts: 1839
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:34 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:21 pm

tphuang wrote:
They have a very low cost product with very few seats they need to fill and strong point of sale at BOS. It's hard to imagine they can't fill 3 flights of A321s with 140 seat each when that's fewer seat than 1 BA A380.


I think that's basically got to be the strategy, if they are going to have to adopt to make any impact in the market. Ex-BOS timing for the 3 flights to LON would probably be: am, early pm and late pm.
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
Boston757
Topic Author
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:12 pm

Who will be forced to relinquish slots??
 
PVDspotting
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:10 am

Re: JBU Boston-London

Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:19 pm

Boston757 wrote:
Who will be forced to relinquish slots??

I don't think that's how it works at LHR. An airlines buys it, they own it. An airline can choose to lease it or sell it to another airline.
 
mutu
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:04 am

Re: JBU Boston-London

Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:18 pm

Boston757 wrote:
Who will be forced to relinquish slots??

No one unless there's an unused remedy pair lhrbos which BA Aa need to make available following the BMI acquisition.

The JFK slot position is dead now IIRC as the measure of minimum competition used has not been breached between the city pairs. Helpfully DL VS ha e increased frequencies and DY is in the wider LON NYC market.

So they buy them like everyone else (including BA) unlessthere are available slots in the pool - undoubtedly afternoon arrivals and late pm departures
 
massachoicetts
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:23 pm

Re: JBL Boston-London

Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:25 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
ahj2000 wrote:
massachoicetts wrote:
Its going to be interesting to see what happens in the BOS-LON Market with now 10 daily departures going from next summer. 8 to Heathrow and 2 to Gatwick. Capacity this year will be roughly ~1,350,000 with 1,100,000 LHR capacity and ~200k LGW capacity. With AA back in the market, and the 380 back next summer there wil be a grand ole capacity roughly at 1,600,000 overall. Where will this leave B6? Seems like an oversaturated market.

Do realize though that B6 and DL will aslo use these to offer connections across the country. This won't all be O/D. However, BOS-LON is a huge market, and can probably take most of this traffic. The fact that BA/AA feels the need to add an AA 777 and uprgrade to A380 again says a ton about the market conditions.


It’s a huge market, yes, but not that big. It’s very overserved. It’s smaller than LA, SF, Orlando or Miami to London. But that’s not unique to Boston-London. It’s happening in a lot of markets, including the other London markets I mentioned.



LAX? Sure. SFO? Probably now more so. MIA and MCO? Absolutely not.

Remember MIA is a hub for American Airlines and sees way less O/D than Boston. BOS-LON served 1.1 million passengers last year (865k LHR, 210k LGW) where >95% were O/D. MIA is far less than that. Orlando isnt even close. I wouldn't say Boston is currently overserved, but 10 fights a ay to LON will be overkill... a perfect medium would be 3x BA, 2x VS, 1x DL and 1x AA, with a LGW flight somewhere in there...
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:33 pm

tphuang wrote:
Boston757 wrote:
Now that JBL is planning on flying to the UK, where are they on their ETOPs certificate. Secondly what city did they choose to fly in the UK, they had said their going to LHR Is that definite , and did they purchase a number of slots ?

Cheers

if you look at the charts they posted, other UK cities would be MAN, EDI and BFL that they might be interested in.

They made the announcement with about as little clarity as possible, since everyone and their mother know they are going to London as soon as they pick up the A321LR option.

My guess is that LGW slots are pretty easy to pick up with TCX demise and the likely down fall of DY. Let's see if they can get LHR slots.

As for saturated market, check BOS-LAX. That's the most saturated domestic transcon market. They are making money there when no one else is.

They have a very low cost product with very few seats they need to fill and strong point of sale at BOS. It's hard to imagine they can't fill 3 flights of A321s with 140 seat each when that's fewer seat than 1 BA A380.

BFL? Bakersfield,CA ?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8015
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:46 pm

UA didn't keep Belfast with the Newark hub and far more O&D and connectivity than B6 offers out of BOS.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26212
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: JBL Boston-London

Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:54 pm

massachoicetts wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
ahj2000 wrote:
Do realize though that B6 and DL will aslo use these to offer connections across the country. This won't all be O/D. However, BOS-LON is a huge market, and can probably take most of this traffic. The fact that BA/AA feels the need to add an AA 777 and uprgrade to A380 again says a ton about the market conditions.


It’s a huge market, yes, but not that big. It’s very overserved. It’s smaller than LA, SF, Orlando or Miami to London. But that’s not unique to Boston-London. It’s happening in a lot of markets, including the other London markets I mentioned.



LAX? Sure. SFO? Probably now more so. MIA and MCO? Absolutely not.

Remember MIA is a hub for American Airlines and sees way less O/D than Boston. BOS-LON served 1.1 million passengers last year (865k LHR, 210k LGW) where >95% were O/D. MIA is far less than that. Orlando isnt even close. I wouldn't say Boston is currently overserved, but 10 fights a ay to LON will be overkill... a perfect medium would be 3x BA, 2x VS, 1x DL and 1x AA, with a LGW flight somewhere in there...


Sorry, but no, it's not something to dispute. Miami and Orlando are larger local markets to London than Boston. Not only is Orlando-London bigger than Boston-London, it is bigger than Miami-London and San Francisco-London.

Having a hub has nothing to do with it. Roughly 80% of traffic between Miami and Europe is local. It's the second largest U.S.-Europe market.
a.
 
User avatar
Jamake1
Posts: 1006
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 2:30 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:02 pm

I hope B6 gets some LHR slots.
Come fly the sun.
 
DALMD80
Posts: 500
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:31 pm

I can't wait to see B6 go fully intercontinental!
2 things- Wear a mask, and vote. It's that simple.
 
Boston757
Topic Author
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:39 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:41 pm

Well I think from what I’ve been reading everyone gets a slot . You might not like the price but everything is for sale at LHR. I fly through all the time and you would think not but if JetBlue, Spirit or Frontier want a go at it they will be granted what ever they desire.
 
massachoicetts
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:23 pm

Re: JBL Boston-London

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:21 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
massachoicetts wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:

It’s a huge market, yes, but not that big. It’s very overserved. It’s smaller than LA, SF, Orlando or Miami to London. But that’s not unique to Boston-London. It’s happening in a lot of markets, including the other London markets I mentioned.



LAX? Sure. SFO? Probably now more so. MIA and MCO? Absolutely not.

Remember MIA is a hub for American Airlines and sees way less O/D than Boston. BOS-LON served 1.1 million passengers last year (865k LHR, 210k LGW) where >95% were O/D. MIA is far less than that. Orlando isnt even close. I wouldn't say Boston is currently overserved, but 10 fights a ay to LON will be overkill... a perfect medium would be 3x BA, 2x VS, 1x DL and 1x AA, with a LGW flight somewhere in there...


Sorry, but no, it's not something to dispute. Miami and Orlando are larger local markets to London than Boston. Not only is Orlando-London bigger than Boston-London, it is bigger than Miami-London and San Francisco-London.

Having a hub has nothing to do with it. Roughly 80% of traffic between Miami and Europe is local. It's the second largest U.S.-Europe market.


Where are you getting these stats? BOS-LON is travelled 1.4x more than Orlando and 1.35x more than MIA , as they both have less than 800,000 passengers travelling between the two....BOS has 1,100,000 passengers flying direct WITH more O/D BOS-LON than any FL-LON market. Also.. BOS-LON has more YOY revenue than LON-MIA..

..So are you making up these stories? Because if a route is both more travelled and has a higher revenue... than its a bigger market LOL. Nice try.

https://www.anna.aero/2018/04/18/transa ... ort-table/ One of many sources. Also keep in mind LON traffic in BOS is up 17% so far this year 2019 vs 2018... the highest of any US city and is poised to grow a further 15%+ next year with AA, DL additions and the continuation of the 380 pushing the available one way seat potential to 16,000+ a week.
 
massachoicetts
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:23 pm

Re: JBL Boston-London

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:57 pm

massachoicetts wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
massachoicetts wrote:


LAX? Sure. SFO? Probably now more so. MIA and MCO? Absolutely not.

Remember MIA is a hub for American Airlines and sees way less O/D than Boston. BOS-LON served 1.1 million passengers last year (865k LHR, 210k LGW) where >95% were O/D. MIA is far less than that. Orlando isnt even close. I wouldn't say Boston is currently overserved, but 10 fights a ay to LON will be overkill... a perfect medium would be 3x BA, 2x VS, 1x DL and 1x AA, with a LGW flight somewhere in there...


Sorry, but no, it's not something to dispute. Miami and Orlando are larger local markets to London than Boston. Not only is Orlando-London bigger than Boston-London, it is bigger than Miami-London and San Francisco-London.

Having a hub has nothing to do with it. Roughly 80% of traffic between Miami and Europe is local. It's the second largest U.S.-Europe market.


Where are you getting these stats? BOS-LON is travelled 1.4x more than Orlando and 1.35x more than MIA , as they both have less than 800,000 passengers travelling between the two....BOS has 1,100,000 passengers flying direct WITH more O/D BOS-LON than any FL-LON market. Also.. BOS-LON has more YOY revenue than LON-MIA..

..So are you making up these stories? Because if a route is both more travelled and has a higher revenue... than its a bigger market LOL. Nice try.

https://www.anna.aero/2018/04/18/transa ... ort-table/ One of many sources. Also keep in mind LON traffic in BOS is up 17% so far this year 2019 vs 2018... the highest of any US city and is poised to grow a further 15%+ next year with AA, DL additions and the continuation of the 380 pushing the available one way seat potential to 18,000+ a week to LHR alone.... not to mention LGW
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26212
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: JBL Boston-London

Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:59 pm

massachoicetts wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
massachoicetts wrote:


LAX? Sure. SFO? Probably now more so. MIA and MCO? Absolutely not.

Remember MIA is a hub for American Airlines and sees way less O/D than Boston. BOS-LON served 1.1 million passengers last year (865k LHR, 210k LGW) where >95% were O/D. MIA is far less than that. Orlando isnt even close. I wouldn't say Boston is currently overserved, but 10 fights a ay to LON will be overkill... a perfect medium would be 3x BA, 2x VS, 1x DL and 1x AA, with a LGW flight somewhere in there...


Sorry, but no, it's not something to dispute. Miami and Orlando are larger local markets to London than Boston. Not only is Orlando-London bigger than Boston-London, it is bigger than Miami-London and San Francisco-London.

Having a hub has nothing to do with it. Roughly 80% of traffic between Miami and Europe is local. It's the second largest U.S.-Europe market.


Where are you getting these stats? BOS-LON is travelled 1.4x more than Orlando and 1.35x more than MIA , as they both have less than 800,000 passengers travelling between the two....BOS has 1,100,000 passengers flying direct WITH more O/D BOS-LON than any FL-LON market. Also.. BOS-LON has more YOY revenue than LON-MIA..

..So are you making up these stories? Because if a route is both more travelled and has a higher revenue... than its a bigger market LOL. Nice try.

https://www.anna.aero/2018/04/18/transa ... ort-table/ One of many sources. Also keep in mind LON traffic in BOS is up 17% so far this year 2019 vs 2018... the highest of any US city and is poised to grow a further 15%+ next year with AA, DL additions and the continuation of the 380 pushing the available one way seat potential to 16,000+ a week.


You are looking at total traffic, not local traffic. MIDT data shows otherwise. Not going to argue with you. If you want to incorrectly believe Boston-London is larger local market, be my guest. It’s not. It’s actually usually neck and neck with Miami, to the point where certainly in any given month or year, one might be larger than the other, but Miami has traditionally edged it out.

But Orlando-London is significantly larger than both. Neither come close to being as big as Orlando-London.

The problem with your Anna.aero source is that it uses one point in time, a summer month, for data. That’s not how you measure this. It also happens to use a month that is peak for Boston and off peak for Miami and Orlando. It also doesn’t combine airports, and both Orlando and Miami have multiple trans-Atlantic airports.

Also, you are underestimating how much of that Boston-London capacity is connecting. And apparently underestimating how many Brits vacation in Florida.
a.
 
User avatar
VS4ever
Posts: 2567
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:03 am

Re: JBL Boston-London

Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:36 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
massachoicetts wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:

Sorry, but no, it's not something to dispute. Miami and Orlando are larger local markets to London than Boston. Not only is Orlando-London bigger than Boston-London, it is bigger than Miami-London and San Francisco-London.

Having a hub has nothing to do with it. Roughly 80% of traffic between Miami and Europe is local. It's the second largest U.S.-Europe market.


Where are you getting these stats? BOS-LON is travelled 1.4x more than Orlando and 1.35x more than MIA , as they both have less than 800,000 passengers travelling between the two....BOS has 1,100,000 passengers flying direct WITH more O/D BOS-LON than any FL-LON market. Also.. BOS-LON has more YOY revenue than LON-MIA..

..So are you making up these stories? Because if a route is both more travelled and has a higher revenue... than its a bigger market LOL. Nice try.

https://www.anna.aero/2018/04/18/transa ... ort-table/ One of many sources. Also keep in mind LON traffic in BOS is up 17% so far this year 2019 vs 2018... the highest of any US city and is poised to grow a further 15%+ next year with AA, DL additions and the continuation of the 380 pushing the available one way seat potential to 16,000+ a week.


You are looking at total traffic, not local traffic. MIDT data shows otherwise. Not going to argue with you. If you want to incorrectly believe Boston-London is larger local market, be my guest. It’s not. It’s actually usually neck and neck with Miami, to the point where certainly in any given month or year, one might be larger than the other, but Miami has traditionally edged it out.

But Orlando-London is significantly larger than both. Neither come close to being as big as Orlando-London.

The problem with your Anna.aero source is that it uses one point in time, a summer month, for data. That’s not how you measure this. It also happens to use a month that is peak for Boston and off peak for Miami and Orlando. It also doesn’t combine airports, and both Orlando and Miami have multiple trans-Atlantic airports.

Also, you are underestimating how much of that Boston-London capacity is connecting. And apparently underestimating how many Brits vacation in Florida.



All very interesting, but folks deal in butts on seats, regardless of connecting, and let's remember per Massport (BOS owners), connecting traffic is about 5.8% of the overall number, so it's primarily a local market
http://www.massport.com/media/3029/mpa- ... -final.pdf (June 2018 report last released) - Page 142 shows O&D of 94.2%.

So... if you take the 5% out, BOS still wins vs MCO. The numbers below were taken from the CAA and while MCO-LGW is bigger than BOS-LHR and the same is true for MIA-LHR, the fact that combined LGW/LHR is bigger for BOS by over 20% from MCO and 3% from MIA

Source: https://www.caa.co.uk/uploadedFiles/CAA ... alysis.pdf

MCO - LHR 2268
MCO - LGW 876408 878676

BOS - LHR 849,443
BOS - LGW 209,106
BOS Total: 1,058,549 20.47% >MCO

MIA LHR 1,029,366
MIA LGW 0
MIA Total:1,029,366 2.83% <BOS

That's 2018

For 2019
https://www.caa.co.uk/Data-and-analysis ... port-data/, the data is a little different. MIA is currently in the lead by 1.7% and BOS is 16.9% ahead of MCO, MIA gained a LGW number in 2019, which is a big difference, however in 2020, BOS grabs a 2nd LGW summer daily with DL, so may pull back ahead a bit.


MCO - LHR 13
MCO - LGW 670,815
Total 670,828

BOS - LHR 637,661
BOS - LGW 146,713
Total 784,374

MIA - LHR 716,118
MIA - LGW 81,728
Total 797,846

BOS vs MCO 16.9%
BOS vs MIA (1.7%)

Feel free to check the numbers, they are published by a very reputable source (CAA, UK's air authority) but MCO on this basis is not bigger than BOS, not by a long shot. Vacationers go to MCO, Business goes to BOS. I will grant you that MCO will get more of an overall UK market because of those holiday flights to MCO, GLA, BFS, but even BOS is catching up with EDI and MAN, they won't overall because DL 752's are no match for VS 333's and 744's in terms of pax volume, but still.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
Posts: 5671
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: JBU Boston-London

Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:54 pm

DALMD80 wrote:

I can't wait to see B6 go fully intercontinental!


They already do. South America.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: JBL Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:06 am

VS4ever wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
massachoicetts wrote:

Where are you getting these stats? BOS-LON is travelled 1.4x more than Orlando and 1.35x more than MIA , as they both have less than 800,000 passengers travelling between the two....BOS has 1,100,000 passengers flying direct WITH more O/D BOS-LON than any FL-LON market. Also.. BOS-LON has more YOY revenue than LON-MIA..

..So are you making up these stories? Because if a route is both more travelled and has a higher revenue... than its a bigger market LOL. Nice try.

https://www.anna.aero/2018/04/18/transa ... ort-table/ One of many sources. Also keep in mind LON traffic in BOS is up 17% so far this year 2019 vs 2018... the highest of any US city and is poised to grow a further 15%+ next year with AA, DL additions and the continuation of the 380 pushing the available one way seat potential to 16,000+ a week.


You are looking at total traffic, not local traffic. MIDT data shows otherwise. Not going to argue with you. If you want to incorrectly believe Boston-London is larger local market, be my guest. It’s not. It’s actually usually neck and neck with Miami, to the point where certainly in any given month or year, one might be larger than the other, but Miami has traditionally edged it out.

But Orlando-London is significantly larger than both. Neither come close to being as big as Orlando-London.

The problem with your Anna.aero source is that it uses one point in time, a summer month, for data. That’s not how you measure this. It also happens to use a month that is peak for Boston and off peak for Miami and Orlando. It also doesn’t combine airports, and both Orlando and Miami have multiple trans-Atlantic airports.

Also, you are underestimating how much of that Boston-London capacity is connecting. And apparently underestimating how many Brits vacation in Florida.



All very interesting, but folks deal in butts on seats, regardless of connecting, and let's remember per Massport (BOS owners), connecting traffic is about 5.8% of the overall number, so it's primarily a local market
http://www.massport.com/media/3029/mpa- ... -final.pdf (June 2018 report last released) - Page 142 shows O&D of 94.2%.

So... if you take the 5% out, BOS still wins vs MCO. The numbers below were taken from the CAA and while MCO-LGW is bigger than BOS-LHR and the same is true for MIA-LHR, the fact that combined LGW/LHR is bigger for BOS by over 20% from MCO and 3% from MIA

Source: https://www.caa.co.uk/uploadedFiles/CAA ... alysis.pdf

MCO - LHR 2268
MCO - LGW 876408 878676

BOS - LHR 849,443
BOS - LGW 209,106
BOS Total: 1,058,549 20.47% >MCO

MIA LHR 1,029,366
MIA LGW 0
MIA Total:1,029,366 2.83% <BOS

That's 2018

For 2019
https://www.caa.co.uk/Data-and-analysis ... port-data/, the data is a little different. MIA is currently in the lead by 1.7% and BOS is 16.9% ahead of MCO, MIA gained a LGW number in 2019, which is a big difference, however in 2020, BOS grabs a 2nd LGW summer daily with DL, so may pull back ahead a bit.


MCO - LHR 13
MCO - LGW 670,815
Total 670,828

BOS - LHR 637,661
BOS - LGW 146,713
Total 784,374

MIA - LHR 716,118
MIA - LGW 81,728
Total 797,846

BOS vs MCO 16.9%
BOS vs MIA (1.7%)

Feel free to check the numbers, they are published by a very reputable source (CAA, UK's air authority) but MCO on this basis is not bigger than BOS, not by a long shot. Vacationers go to MCO, Business goes to BOS. I will grant you that MCO will get more of an overall UK market because of those holiday flights to MCO, GLA, BFS, but even BOS is catching up with EDI and MAN, they won't overall because DL 752's are no match for VS 333's and 744's in terms of pax volume, but still.

Not opining on which is bigger but just wanted to point out that while BOS may be 5% connecting, that doesn’t account for connections at the LON end.
 
User avatar
adamh8297
Posts: 3214
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:28 pm

Re: JBL Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:07 am

VS4ever wrote:


All very interesting, but folks deal in butts on seats, regardless of connecting, and let's remember per Massport (BOS owners), connecting traffic is about 5.8% of the overall number, so it's primarily a local market



BOS-London probably has more seats/pax but more people in BOS are connecting in LHR on BA and LGW on DY. That 5.8% states that every 100 people who arrive or depart BOS 5.8 of them are connecting in BOS. That number has nothing to do with whether or not the passenger connected in LHR or not.

I know BOS-LON is around 740K annual pax O+D (1000 PDEW) for 2018. Is MIA/FLL-LGW more than 1000 PDEW now? Orlando is bigger based on the 2011 numbers - (>800K pax)

Also probably offtopic but with MT not being around are there any carriers picking up the slack UK traffic? Could this cause a dip?
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
User avatar
johnboy
Posts: 3106
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 9:09 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:10 am

OzarkD9S wrote:
DALMD80 wrote:

I can't wait to see B6 go fully intercontinental!


They already do. South America.


As an “old-timer” here, I’m sure you don’t wanna open up that can of worms. :lol:
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26212
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: JBL Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:37 am

VS4ever wrote:
Feel free to check the numbers, they are published by a very reputable source (CAA, UK's air authority) but MCO on this basis is not bigger than BOS, not by a long shot. Vacationers go to MCO, Business goes to BOS. I will grant you that MCO will get more of an overall UK market because of those holiday flights to MCO, GLA, BFS, but even BOS is catching up with EDI and MAN, they won't overall because DL 752's are no match for VS 333's and 744's in terms of pax volume, but still.


I am not saying those numbers are wrong. They are in fact totally accurate figures. I am talking about local market. People who start in Miami/Orlando and end in London, regardless of how they get there. Those numbers you are quoting are just people flying non-stop between those city pairs. If they continue onto to another city beyond London or if they started in another city in front of Miami/Orlando/Boston, they are counted. That's not what we are talking about here.

Local market is people who fly between Miami/Orlando/Boston and London regardless if they went non-stop or via a third city. And Orlando-London local market is just massive, much larger than from Miami or Boston. It's not the best yielding though, so a lot of traffic is going via Atlanta or Boston or Miami or wherever.

Also, 94% just says that 94% end in Boston. It doesn't mean they don't connect in London.
Last edited by MAH4546 on Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
a.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 1103
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:41 am

Aliqiout wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Boston757 wrote:
Now that JBL is planning on flying to the UK, where are they on their ETOPs certificate. Secondly what city did they choose to fly in the UK, they had said their going to LHR Is that definite , and did they purchase a number of slots ?

Cheers

if you look at the charts they posted, other UK cities would be MAN, EDI and BFL that they might be interested in.

They made the announcement with about as little clarity as possible, since everyone and their mother know they are going to London as soon as they pick up the A321LR option.

My guess is that LGW slots are pretty easy to pick up with TCX demise and the likely down fall of DY. Let's see if they can get LHR slots.

As for saturated market, check BOS-LAX. That's the most saturated domestic transcon market. They are making money there when no one else is.

They have a very low cost product with very few seats they need to fill and strong point of sale at BOS. It's hard to imagine they can't fill 3 flights of A321s with 140 seat each when that's fewer seat than 1 BA A380.

BFL? Bakersfield,CA ?


I would imagine that the intention was "Belfast", (either BFS or BHD); however, I too got a chuckle out of the excitement Bakersfield would experience if JetBlue announced anything to do with the airport at all.

I wonder if B6 would do a split operations, offering flights to more than one London airport. If MINT is going to be used, that demand will be overwhelmingly LHR. If they can turn a profit with lower yields, they might do well at a lower-cost airport like Stansted. But could they - or would they - do both?
 
massachoicetts
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:23 pm

Re: JBL Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:23 am

MAH4546 wrote:
VS4ever wrote:
Feel free to check the numbers, they are published by a very reputable source (CAA, UK's air authority) but MCO on this basis is not bigger than BOS, not by a long shot. Vacationers go to MCO, Business goes to BOS. I will grant you that MCO will get more of an overall UK market because of those holiday flights to MCO, GLA, BFS, but even BOS is catching up with EDI and MAN, they won't overall because DL 752's are no match for VS 333's and 744's in terms of pax volume, but still.


I am not saying those numbers are wrong. They are in fact totally accurate figures. I am talking about local market. People who start in Miami/Orlando and end in London, regardless of how they get there. Those numbers you are quoting are just people flying non-stop between those city pairs. If they continue onto to another city beyond London or if they started in another city in front of Miami/Orlando/Boston, they are counted. That's not what we are talking about here.

Local market is people who fly between Miami/Orlando/Boston and London regardless if they went non-stop or via a third city. And Orlando-London local market is just massive, much larger than from Miami or Boston. It's not the best yielding though, so a lot of traffic is going via Atlanta or Boston or Miami or wherever.

Also, 94% just says that 94% end in Boston. It doesn't mean they don't connect in London.



.. but MIA is way less OD due to it being a fortress AA hub. Youre missing that key piece of information.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26212
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: JBL Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:44 am

massachoicetts wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
VS4ever wrote:
Feel free to check the numbers, they are published by a very reputable source (CAA, UK's air authority) but MCO on this basis is not bigger than BOS, not by a long shot. Vacationers go to MCO, Business goes to BOS. I will grant you that MCO will get more of an overall UK market because of those holiday flights to MCO, GLA, BFS, but even BOS is catching up with EDI and MAN, they won't overall because DL 752's are no match for VS 333's and 744's in terms of pax volume, but still.


I am not saying those numbers are wrong. They are in fact totally accurate figures. I am talking about local market. People who start in Miami/Orlando and end in London, regardless of how they get there. Those numbers you are quoting are just people flying non-stop between those city pairs. If they continue onto to another city beyond London or if they started in another city in front of Miami/Orlando/Boston, they are counted. That's not what we are talking about here.

Local market is people who fly between Miami/Orlando/Boston and London regardless if they went non-stop or via a third city. And Orlando-London local market is just massive, much larger than from Miami or Boston. It's not the best yielding though, so a lot of traffic is going via Atlanta or Boston or Miami or wherever.

Also, 94% just says that 94% end in Boston. It doesn't mean they don't connect in London.



.. but MIA is way less OD due to it being a fortress AA hub. Youre missing that key piece of information.


No, I’m not. Just because Miami has less O&D overall doesn’t mean that it has less O&D to London.

Firstly, Miami is a two airport city, unlike Boston, and its primarily domestic airport is FLL, not MIA. Secondly, MIA, by itself excluding FLL, has more international O&D than Boston. It’s the third largest O&D international airport in the U.S. after LAX and JFK.

Like it or not, Miami-London is traditionally a bigger local market than Boston-London. Miami is the second largest O&D market between Europe and the United States, so that shouldn’t even be surprising that it’s a larger market to London than Boston. Miami supports non-stops to a lot of smaller markets in Europe, like Oslo, Moscow, Warsaw, Vienna, Milan, that Boston doesn’t, and that’s on local traffic. American’s “fortress” network from Miami to Europe isn’t even that big, it is just Madrid, London, Barcelona, Paris and Milan, and it doesn’t have a monopoly on any of them.

You also aren’t using the term fortress hub correctly, because AA in no way shape or form has a fortress hub in Miami, where it literally has competition in just about every major route.
a.
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
Posts: 5671
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: JBU Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:18 am

As an “old-timer” here, I’m sure you don’t wanna open up that can of worms. :lol:[/quote]

Well, you've got 2 more years here than I do so I guess I'm nipping at your heels for "old-timer" status. :old:
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: JBU Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:39 am

OzarkD9S wrote:
DALMD80 wrote:

I can't wait to see B6 go fully intercontinental!


They already do. South America.


LOL, sure, I guess the northern most part of south America is actually, still south America, then yes.
 
User avatar
mikegigs
Posts: 237
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:03 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:59 am

OzarkD9S wrote:
DALMD80 wrote:

I can't wait to see B6 go fully intercontinental!


They already do. South America.


In reality, B6's longest route will be JFK-GYE (I think), which is 2,970 miles. If they flew BOS-DUB it would be 2,993 miles - only 23 miles further. Even flying to LHR from BOS is 3,265 miles - only about 300 mi further.

Others can make their own judgement, but in my mind, if flights to LHR are considered intercontinental then South America should be too, as they are:
:checkmark: Similar in length to US-UK
:checkmark: Between two separate continents
:checkmark: Over 7 hours flight time
:checkmark: International flights

Perhaps the better phrase would be "see B6 go fully transoceanic" ;)
Airports: BOS, JAX, JFK, EWR, LGA, CVG, ATL, CLT, DCA, IAD, STT, PVD, ALB, MCO
Aircraft: 733, 735, 73G, 738, 752, 717, A319, A320, MD-88, E190, E175, E145, CRJ-200, CRJ-700, Q400
Airlines: B6, CO, DL, US, NW, WN, DH
...a good start but a long way to go!
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: JBU Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:13 pm

mikegigs wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
DALMD80 wrote:

I can't wait to see B6 go fully intercontinental!


They already do. South America.


In reality, B6's longest route will be JFK-GYE (I think), which is 2,970 miles. If they flew BOS-DUB it would be 2,993 miles - only 23 miles further. Even flying to LHR from BOS is 3,265 miles - only about 300 mi further.

Others can make their own judgement, but in my mind, if flights to LHR are considered intercontinental then South America should be too, as they are:
:checkmark: Similar in length to US-UK
:checkmark: Between two separate continents
:checkmark: Over 7 hours flight time
:checkmark: International flights

Perhaps the better phrase would be "see B6 go fully transoceanic" ;)


B6 has a very small footprint in South America. In fact, an individual would still have to traverse thousands of miles just to get to the core of South America. So yes, they technically fly to S.A. but you cant compare their flying to S.A. to that of a global airline.
 
DALMD80
Posts: 500
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:17 pm

mikegigs wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
DALMD80 wrote:

I can't wait to see B6 go fully intercontinental!


They already do. South America.


In reality, B6's longest route will be JFK-GYE (I think), which is 2,970 miles. If they flew BOS-DUB it would be 2,993 miles - only 23 miles further. Even flying to LHR from BOS is 3,265 miles - only about 300 mi further.

Others can make their own judgement, but in my mind, if flights to LHR are considered intercontinental then South America should be too, as they are:
:checkmark: Similar in length to US-UK
:checkmark: Between two separate continents
:checkmark: Over 7 hours flight time
:checkmark: International flights

Perhaps the better phrase would be "see B6 go fully transoceanic" ;)

Yeah. That's what I meant.
2 things- Wear a mask, and vote. It's that simple.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5172
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:55 pm

jumbojet wrote:
mikegigs wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:

They already do. South America.


In reality, B6's longest route will be JFK-GYE (I think), which is 2,970 miles. If they flew BOS-DUB it would be 2,993 miles - only 23 miles further. Even flying to LHR from BOS is 3,265 miles - only about 300 mi further.

Others can make their own judgement, but in my mind, if flights to LHR are considered intercontinental then South America should be too, as they are:
:checkmark: Similar in length to US-UK
:checkmark: Between two separate continents
:checkmark: Over 7 hours flight time
:checkmark: International flights

Perhaps the better phrase would be "see B6 go fully transoceanic" ;)


B6 has a very small footprint in South America. In fact, an individual would still have to traverse thousands of miles just to get to the core of South America. So yes, they technically fly to S.A. but you cant compare their flying to S.A. to that of a global airline.


interesting how you say that and they serve or have announced to serve 3 airports there (CTG, GYE and GEO) out of JFK and DL only serves 2 (GRU and BOG) by next summer.

If you are saying that because they don't serve the deep SA airports like GRU/GIG/EZE/SCL, then I would agree with you since they don't have the aircraft to serve those places.

But for an airline the size of B6, they actually serve quite a few airports in SA in BOG, CTG, GYE, UIO, GEO, MDE and LIM. And if you will notice DL doesn't serve MDE, GEO, GYE from anywhere.

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:

I would imagine that the intention was "Belfast", (either BFS or BHD); however, I too got a chuckle out of the excitement Bakersfield would experience if JetBlue announced anything to do with the airport at all.

I wonder if B6 would do a split operations, offering flights to more than one London airport. If MINT is going to be used, that demand will be overwhelmingly LHR. If they can turn a profit with lower yields, they might do well at a lower-cost airport like Stansted. But could they - or would they - do both?


Yes, I definitely got that one wrong. BFS it is. And I think it's possible for summer time if they ever decide to purchase A220XLR. But first things first, London would probably be the only place they add in 2021. They need to London right.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8015
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:43 pm

mikegigs wrote:
:checkmark: Between two separate continents


That single criterion is both necessary and sufficient. :) Rome to Tunis may only be a 1:15 flight but it's still intercontinental.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:54 pm

jumbojet wrote:
mikegigs wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:

They already do. South America.


In reality, B6's longest route will be JFK-GYE (I think), which is 2,970 miles. If they flew BOS-DUB it would be 2,993 miles - only 23 miles further. Even flying to LHR from BOS is 3,265 miles - only about 300 mi further.

Others can make their own judgement, but in my mind, if flights to LHR are considered intercontinental then South America should be too, as they are:
:checkmark: Similar in length to US-UK
:checkmark: Between two separate continents
:checkmark: Over 7 hours flight time
:checkmark: International flights

Perhaps the better phrase would be "see B6 go fully transoceanic" ;)


B6 has a very small footprint in South America. In fact, an individual would still have to traverse thousands of miles just to get to the core of South America. So yes, they technically fly to S.A. but you cant compare their flying to S.A. to that of a global airline.

B6 actually has pretty good coverage of South America. It serves the second (Colombia), fourth (Peru), and sixth (Ecuador) largest countries on the continent. The biggest hole in the network would be Brazil obviously but they must have determined that secondary Brazil markets aren't worth it and they currently don't have the range to serve the two largest cities. I don't consider Argentina to be a hole as the overwhelming majority of the traffic goes to one city and the only American airline with multiple city service to Argentina is AA. Venezuela (the fifth largest country) is obviously not served by any US carrier at this point.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: JBU Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:30 pm

tphuang wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
mikegigs wrote:

In reality, B6's longest route will be JFK-GYE (I think), which is 2,970 miles. If they flew BOS-DUB it would be 2,993 miles - only 23 miles further. Even flying to LHR from BOS is 3,265 miles - only about 300 mi further.

Others can make their own judgement, but in my mind, if flights to LHR are considered intercontinental then South America should be too, as they are:
:checkmark: Similar in length to US-UK
:checkmark: Between two separate continents
:checkmark: Over 7 hours flight time
:checkmark: International flights

Perhaps the better phrase would be "see B6 go fully transoceanic" ;)


B6 has a very small footprint in South America. In fact, an individual would still have to traverse thousands of miles just to get to the core of South America. So yes, they technically fly to S.A. but you cant compare their flying to S.A. to that of a global airline.


interesting how you say that and they serve or have announced to serve 3 airports there (CTG, GYE and GEO) out of JFK and DL only serves 2 (GRU and BOG) by next summer.

If you are saying that because they don't serve the deep SA airports like GRU/GIG/EZE/SCL, then I would agree with you since they don't have the aircraft to serve those places.

.


Who's talking just JFK to South America? After DL and LATAM get finished with their personal affairs, they will have more non stops between the two countries than any other airline. And since we're all av-geeks, DL + LATAM flights will be on a wide variety of wide body and interesting aircraft. Back on topic, it will be very difficult for B6 to gain any significant market share on the NYC-LON flights, no matter what airport they choose. NYC to LON is not NYC to the west coast. B6 to London simply won't be the slam dunk that some of you think it to be.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: JBU Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:48 pm

talk about cornering the market, DL/VS combined with AA/BA will offer roughly 375-400 business class seats a day on BOS-LON. Thats just BOS. NYC to LON on those 4 airlines has to be well over 1,000 business class seats. B6 will be plucking the low hanging fruit, I get it, and I get it that they can probably find enough butts to fill up an A321 and make a few bucks. However, I disagree with what has been said in that B6 will disrupt the business class fare on NYC-LON. They simply won't have enough market share or seats to make that much of a difference.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: JBU Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:19 pm

Lets take a look at JFK-LON. I'm guessing 3 daily B6 flights?

Compare that to AA/BS 16 daily JFK-LON flights. They basically run a shuttle type operation between the two cities.

DL/VS, 10 daily out of JFK. 2 morning flights and then multiple flights between 1800 and 2300.

since most of the money is made up front, I am guessing thats roughly 700 AA/BA business class seats and 350-400 DL/VS seats for a combined 1000-1100 daily business class seats. And thats not taking into account what UA has going on over at EWR.

If I work for a fortune 500 company, or any medium to large sized company, and I need flexibility and reliability, its a no brainer to go with AA/BA or DL/VS.

So its obvious that B6 is targeting the low hanging fruit, meaning the leisure flyer that might want to spend up a bit for MINT or small companies.

Again, I fail to see how 3 (or whatever the actual # is) A321's on JFK-LON will disrupt the business class market when your talking the numbers above.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5172
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:41 pm

jumbojet wrote:
talk about cornering the market, DL/VS combined with AA/BA will offer roughly 375-400 business class seats a day on BOS-LON. Thats just BOS. NYC to LON on those 4 airlines has to be well over 1,000 business class seats. B6 will be plucking the low hanging fruit, I get it, and I get it that they can probably find enough butts to fill up an A321 and make a few bucks. However, I disagree with what has been said in that B6 will disrupt the business class fare on NYC-LON. They simply won't have enough market share or seats to make that much of a difference.


Let's say they add 4 flights on NYC-LON and 3 flights on BOS-LON, that will probably be 85 J seat out of BOS and 120 J seat out of NYC. It should be a no-brainer given their point of sale at BOS to be able to sell those seats out at a fare level that's equivalent to what the competition is selling. And while they are doing this, the J fares at other carriers will drop due to the need for price matching.

If you just look at BOS-ATL where 5 additional flights from B6 into an existing market of 17 flights from DL/WN/NK managed to tank the entire fare environment to half of what is was originally. And that was 750 extra seat into a market with already 3000+ seat a day. So an additional competitor with willingness to price lower can significantly change the landscape of a market even when it only adds less than 25% capacity into the market. And even with WN gone from the market now, so the capacity is about the same as what it was prior to B6 entering BOS-ATL, the yield really hasn't come back up.

Past events have been shown us that DL will aggressively price match B6 at every chance. And if both VS/DL and B6 price lower, AA/BA will have to do so too.

About the schedule part, it's actually not that complicated. For the evening flights, the east bound flight all go out in a 5 hour window from like 6 to 11 PM. Let's say they only have 3 flights a day on NYC-LON and they schedule them in at 7, 8:30 and 10 pm. That actually sufficiently covers the entire evening departure already. Anyone traveling to London on company dime would see those B6 options and have to pick them if it's the cheapest. And if they have a 4th flight and put it in the morning, they got the morning covered to. And they will only have 120 J seats to fill. That should be really easy for an airline like B6 to do in a such a large market.
 
User avatar
GCT64
Posts: 1839
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:34 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:42 pm

If B6 is really going to make an impact on JFK-LON and simultaneously BOS-LON and raise their presence and brand awareness in London, they are going to need the 6 A321s daily (3 BOS and 3 JFK) mentioned above and a substantial marketing spend. Difficult to see how B6 is realistically going to get suitable slots at LHR to support this (and it would be massively expensive). Even getting suitable slots at LGW is going to be a huge challenge (unless they are aggressive in the TCX slot auction?). Will they set their stall out to be the STN's hometown TATL airline? There's definitely a market, but would take a lot of advertising to educate both the US and UK point of sale to use STN.
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
tphuang
Posts: 5172
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:54 pm

GCT64 wrote:
If B6 is really going to make an impact on JFK-LON and simultaneously BOS-LON and raise their presence and brand awareness in London, they are going to need the 6 A321s daily (3 BOS and 3 JFK) mentioned above and a substantial marketing spend. Difficult to see how B6 is realistically going to get suitable slots at LHR to support this (and it would be massively expensive). Even getting suitable slots at LGW is going to be a huge challenge (unless they are aggressive in the TCX slot auction?). Will they set their stall out to be the STN's hometown TATL airline? There's definitely a market, but would take a lot of advertising to educate both the US and UK point of sale to use STN.

They are going the way of regulatory diversture first for LHR. If not, I think LGW will be pretty easy to get. Remember that with adding T6/7, they will have a huge presence in JFK with what will be the 2nd largest terminal in terms of space and largest in terms of number of gates and they have the 2nd most number of slots at JFK. There are a lot of things they could use to trade with foreign airlines to get this done. Given all the issues DY is having and TCX demise, I think LGW slots will be more available a year from now on. In some ways, I think they should pursue a 2 airport strategy. Get whatever they can get out of LHR for BOS flights and then putting the JFK and possibly FLL/MCO flights down the road at LGW while they wait for more slots to become available at LHR.

While brand awareness in London is important, they frankly don't have a lot of brand awareness in some of the American cities they fly to and still do well, because they have strong JFK/BOS point of sale.
 
flyby519
Posts: 1570
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:31 am

Re: JBU Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:17 pm

jumbojet wrote:
mikegigs wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:

They already do. South America.


In reality, B6's longest route will be JFK-GYE (I think), which is 2,970 miles. If they flew BOS-DUB it would be 2,993 miles - only 23 miles further. Even flying to LHR from BOS is 3,265 miles - only about 300 mi further.

Others can make their own judgement, but in my mind, if flights to LHR are considered intercontinental then South America should be too, as they are:
:checkmark: Similar in length to US-UK
:checkmark: Between two separate continents
:checkmark: Over 7 hours flight time
:checkmark: International flights

Perhaps the better phrase would be "see B6 go fully transoceanic" ;)


B6 has a very small footprint in South America. In fact, an individual would still have to traverse thousands of miles just to get to the core of South America. So yes, they technically fly to S.A. but you cant compare their flying to S.A. to that of a global airline.


When did anyone say B6 was a global airline?
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1017
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:34 pm

GCT64 wrote:
If B6 is really going to make an impact on JFK-LON and simultaneously BOS-LON and raise their presence and brand awareness in London, they are going to need the 6 A321s daily (3 BOS and 3 JFK) mentioned above and a substantial marketing spend. Difficult to see how B6 is realistically going to get suitable slots at LHR to support this (and it would be massively expensive). Even getting suitable slots at LGW is going to be a huge challenge (unless they are aggressive in the TCX slot auction?). Will they set their stall out to be the STN's hometown TATL airline? There's definitely a market, but would take a lot of advertising to educate both the US and UK point of sale to use STN.

I agree wholeheartedly. This is going to be an extremely expensive undertaking. Furthermore, I don't in any way believe B6 will be a price maker on any LON route. They're simply too small.
 
Bluewho
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:58 pm

Re: JBU Boston-London

Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:00 pm

flyby519 wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
mikegigs wrote:

In reality, B6's longest route will be JFK-GYE (I think), which is 2,970 miles. If they flew BOS-DUB it would be 2,993 miles - only 23 miles further. Even flying to LHR from BOS is 3,265 miles - only about 300 mi further.

Others can make their own judgement, but in my mind, if flights to LHR are considered intercontinental then South America should be too, as they are:
:checkmark: Similar in length to US-UK
:checkmark: Between two separate continents
:checkmark: Over 7 hours flight time
:checkmark: International flights

Perhaps the better phrase would be "see B6 go fully transoceanic" ;)


B6 has a very small footprint in South America. In fact, an individual would still have to traverse thousands of miles just to get to the core of South America. So yes, they technically fly to S.A. but you cant compare their flying to S.A. to that of a global airline.


When did anyone say B6 was a global airline?



They didn’t but that does not stop jumbo.

This will be interesting to watch. Many of the same thoughts about mint and how it couldn’t work and don’t you know what your up against you can’t challenge that market or take on the big guys.

Wrong wrong wrong.

On top of that what is the issue with having another player in the tatl world? I thought we all like competition? JetBlue is not trying to dominate that market I don’t know how many times it needs to be said even they say it. What they see is an area where they can make money just like Delta says with its growth in Boston. Yet on here Delta is right and JetBlue is insane. We are talking 321lrs that sip glass lots of loyal passengers and perfectly positioned hubs as well as a nice (to be upgraded) mint product so what is the issue?

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos