ETinCaribe
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:32 am

If, and that is a big IF, any or all of the allegations from the whistleblower are true, big changes will be needed at ET. Looks like he has an axe to grind, may have some political reasons, but the focus is on the message, not the messenger. Let's see what comes up in the next few days and weeks. AFAIK, ET does not have particularly higher level of incidents compared to its peers of similar size (I understand that they have a young fleet, but still...). Shoddy maintenance and cutting corners don't stay invisible forever.

zeke wrote:
While the airline is owned by the state, and the ECAA comes under the department of transport, I reject the idea that members of the government (ie the politicians) are involved in the day to day operations of those organisations.

Very true. In fact, I cannot recall the last time ET was used for political ends by the gov. For instance, you never see ET orders being announced by politicians while visiting the US or Europe/France. I have never seen that at ET, let alone the technical day-to-day ops.
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:27 am

Antarius wrote:
Boeing is unquestionably a major one, but you cant not blame customers when their pilots dont know how to fly an airplane outside a very narrow window of happy path.

If you want to talk about proportions of blame:
Lets see how broad this happy path normally is and in case of the MAX:
-> Global aviation crash rate 2012-2017: 0.00000024 per flight (-> one crash per 4.16 million flights)
-> Of these, likely contributed by pilot failures: 0.00000021 per flight (-> one crash every 4.76 million flights). This contribution reflects the average pilots proficiency.
-> This leaves the following difference to be contributed by technical failures: 0.00000003 per flight (-> one crash per 33.3 million flights)

The MAX had this crash rate: 0.000008 per flight (-> one crash every 0.125 million flights -> 33 times worse than the global aviation crash rate in the 5 years before the MAX)
As the same pilots were flying the MAX, that contributed 0.00000021 crashes per flight normally, we can take the 0.000008 minues the 0.00000021 to get the contribution of the MAX itself (components contribute to the total failure rate by simple addition). So we get 0.00000779 as the crash contributing failure rate of the MAX. Which is 260 times higher than the 0.00000003 crashes per flight, which are normally contributed by technical failure.

So, as you say, the MAX occasionally has left a very narrow window of happy path for the crews to react. 260 time narrower than with other aircraft so to speak. But we also have to say, that the subpar airlines were likely the first ones to expose this weakness of the MAX. And that migh be in line with this report about ET.
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Noshow
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:13 am

If this whistleblower has a point Ethiopian maintenance and records changes are some different topic.
This is about the MAX and technical changes needed on the airplane not (possibly) at customer airlines.
I hope we don't have to go through another "they should just have switched two switches"-loop.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:16 am

planecane wrote:
It might not have happened to another flight. Boeing was working on the MCAS update after lion Air with the intention of rolling it out across the fleet.


How long have they been working on it? Wasn't it supposed to be a quick and easy fix?
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Noshow
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:18 am

Shouldn't it be ready by now? Why havn't they handed over their official and final improvements and update suggestion to the FAA yet?
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:57 am

GSOflyerDL wrote:
There are a slew of jaw-dropping allegations in this AP article on Ethiopian's culture and maintenance record. The following are just a few:
  • Ethiopian maintains a jail-like detention center on the grounds of its Addis Ababa headquarters that it used to interrogate, intimidate and sometimes beat up employees who got out of line.
  • The carrier went into the maintenance records on a Boeing 737 Max jet a day after it crashed this year.
  • Mechanics are overworked and pressed to take shortcuts to get planes cleared for takeoff.
  • Pilots are flying on too little rest and not enough training.
  • Nearly all of the 82 mechanics, inspectors, and supervisors whose files were reviewed for an FAA audit lacked the minimum requirements for doing their jobs.
  • The chief engineer/whistleblower urged the CEO to "personally intervene" to stop mechanics from falsifying records. His plea was ignored.


All this, somehow, reminds me of what the pilot who landed at GVA instead of FCO, said, five years ago.
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:24 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Allegations are irrelevant to MAX crash for two reasons.

1) There shouldn't be a need for MX personnel to work on MAX as none of the systems/components would have reached maintenance threshold.
2) Ethiopian mx didn't modify the MCAS code.

Stop blaming customers, and yes most of them are from third world, would be in future, because most growth in aviation is happening there.


Who can we blame for pilots flying MAX at full speed, full throttle and did not even once even try to slowing the Max down? It was pilot's choice.

We know the mcas is not goods. But pilots actions are not perfect either.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:52 am

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Allegations are irrelevant to MAX crash for two reasons.

1) There shouldn't be a need for MX personnel to work on MAX as none of the systems/components would have reached maintenance threshold.
2) Ethiopian mx didn't modify the MCAS code.

Stop blaming customers, and yes most of them are from third world, would be in future, because most growth in aviation is happening there.


Who can we blame for pilots flying MAX at full speed, full throttle and did not even once even try to slowing the Max down? It was pilot's choice.

We know the mcas is not goods. But pilots actions are not perfect either.


Once again, the main component to speed is trim, when you point the nose down, speed increases. The pilots were trying to climb, the airplane was trying to fly itself into the ground.
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:05 am

Main things to the speeds is engine throttles.

The pilots did win the Macs and turned it off. But they did not slow the speeding and at the some point, they on the mcas again. The speeding did not get the slow.

Seems the dicesions from the pilots are factor in this trajedy.
 
Olddog
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:08 am

And yet they are somehow able to fly the other 737 without problem....
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
Chasensfo
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:46 am

Going back many years before the crash, engineers and pilot expats on internet forums often said that Ethiopian would not only encourage you to work past your max duty times, but love you and treat you well if you are willing to work longer than legal consistently. I'd imagine that means said workers were not held accountable for violating rules, though I never expressly saw that written. With that in mind, this all doesn't surprise me.

Olddog wrote:
And yet they are somehow able to fly the other 737 without problem....

Well....there was that one night in Beirut...
 
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Polot
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:01 am

Olddog wrote:
And yet they are somehow able to fly the other 737 without problem....

Well, mostly without problem.
 
planecane
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:08 am

scbriml wrote:
planecane wrote:
It might not have happened to another flight. Boeing was working on the MCAS update after lion Air with the intention of rolling it out across the fleet.


How long have they been working on it? Wasn't it supposed to be a quick and easy fix?


What has been taking so long is the additional changes for things like the bit flip issue that required a major change to the FCC software. If the ET crash had not occurred, the MAX would not have received the same amount of scrutiny and the software change would have just been the changes to the MCAS logic that seem to have been complete and tested back in June.
 
asdf
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:11 am

bob75013 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Allegations are irrelevant to MAX crash for two reasons.

1) There shouldn't be a need for MX personnel to work on MAX as none of the systems/components would have reached maintenance threshold.
2) Ethiopian mx didn't modify the MCAS code.

Stop blaming customers, and yes most of them are from third world, would be in future, because most growth in aviation is happening there.


Correction: it was Ethiopan's former chief engineer that was blaming his own company -- ie the customer.


what do you mean with "blame"?

he stated that company LOOKED into the MX records after the crash
no mention of altering or anything

maybe a breach of rules

who cares
boeing itself breached not only but at least rules, regulations, recommendations ......
 
asdf
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:28 am

Chasensfo wrote:
Going back many years before the crash, engineers and pilot expats on internet forums often said that Ethiopian would not only encourage you to work past your max duty times, but love you and treat you well if you are willing to work longer than legal consistently. I'd imagine that means said workers were not held accountable for violating rules, though I never expressly saw that written. With that in mind, this all doesn't surprise me.
...


have you ever been in africa - for other purposes then recreation - before ...?

nothing to whitewash here
but this is not the western world

not at all if you look behind the scenes
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:45 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Allegations are irrelevant to MAX crash for two reasons.

1) There shouldn't be a need for MX personnel to work on MAX as none of the systems/components would have reached maintenance threshold.
2) Ethiopian mx didn't modify the MCAS code.

Stop blaming customers, and yes most of them are from third world, would be in future, because most growth in aviation is happening there.

Not true at all. Systems get checked and worked on for various reasons.
 
asdf
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:49 am

Phoenix757767 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Allegations are irrelevant to MAX crash for two reasons.
1) There shouldn't be a need for MX personnel to work on MAX as none of the systems/components would have reached maintenance threshold.
2) Ethiopian mx didn't modify the MCAS code.
Stop blaming customers, and yes most of them are from third world, would be in future, because most growth in aviation is happening there.

Not true at all. Systems get checked and worked on for various reasons.


really?

flight critial sensors on brand new multi billion airliners need to be changed regulary ?
and matching systems need to be troubleshooted?
a few weeks into service?
really?
 
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Polot
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:54 am

asdf wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Allegations are irrelevant to MAX crash for two reasons.
1) There shouldn't be a need for MX personnel to work on MAX as none of the systems/components would have reached maintenance threshold.
2) Ethiopian mx didn't modify the MCAS code.
Stop blaming customers, and yes most of them are from third world, would be in future, because most growth in aviation is happening there.

Not true at all. Systems get checked and worked on for various reasons.


really?

flight critial sensors on brand new multi billion airliners need to be regulary changed?
and matching systems are top be troubleshooted?
a few weeks into service?
really?

He never said anything about flight critical sensors, and matching systems. Dtw2hyd said there was never any reason for MX to work on the Max, because “none of the systems/components would have reached maintenance threshold.”

Phoenix757767 was just pointing out that that is false, and MX poke around aircraft for a variety of reasons. I doubt in the 4 months that ET had the accident aircraft that ET MX personnel had never touched the aircraft.

This is true of all new aircraft no matter the type or vender. Modern airplanes are complicated largely hand-built machines. They break and need to be cared for, even when new.
 
Phoenix757767
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:56 am

asdf wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Allegations are irrelevant to MAX crash for two reasons.
1) There shouldn't be a need for MX personnel to work on MAX as none of the systems/components would have reached maintenance threshold.
2) Ethiopian mx didn't modify the MCAS code.
Stop blaming customers, and yes most of them are from third world, would be in future, because most growth in aviation is happening there.

Not true at all. Systems get checked and worked on for various reasons.


really?

flight critial sensors on brand new multi billion airliners need to be changed regulary ?
and matching systems need to be troubleshooted?
a few weeks into service?
really?

Do not put words in my posts. No where did I say anything that you claim.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:09 pm

Polot wrote:
asdf wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
Not true at all. Systems get checked and worked on for various reasons.


really?

flight critial sensors on brand new multi billion airliners need to be regulary changed?
and matching systems are top be troubleshooted?
a few weeks into service?
really?

He never said anything about flight critical sensors, and matching systems. Dtw2hyd said there was never any reason for MX to work on the Max, because “none of the systems/components would have reached maintenance threshold.”

Phoenix757767 was just pointing out that that is false, and MX poke around aircraft for a variety of reasons. I doubt in the 4 months that ET had the accident aircraft that ET MX personnel had never touched the aircraft.

This is true of all new aircraft no matter the type or vender. Modern airplanes are complicated largely hand-built machines. They break and need to be cared for, even when new.


They are so modern line MX can do all the checks from Starbucks with WiFi. Or it is just a sales brochure talk.

Is that the first AoA sensor ET changed on a 737? Probably not.

ET operated 36x737s since 1987. How many nosedived because their MX or Pilots didn't know how to maintain or fly?

If ET is at fault prove it with concrete evidence what ET did wrong with this particular frame and the flight in question, otherwise it is just annoying.
 
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Polot
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:15 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Polot wrote:
asdf wrote:

really?

flight critial sensors on brand new multi billion airliners need to be regulary changed?
and matching systems are top be troubleshooted?
a few weeks into service?
really?

He never said anything about flight critical sensors, and matching systems. Dtw2hyd said there was never any reason for MX to work on the Max, because “none of the systems/components would have reached maintenance threshold.”

Phoenix757767 was just pointing out that that is false, and MX poke around aircraft for a variety of reasons. I doubt in the 4 months that ET had the accident aircraft that ET MX personnel had never touched the aircraft.

This is true of all new aircraft no matter the type or vender. Modern airplanes are complicated largely hand-built machines. They break and need to be cared for, even when new.


They are so modern line MX can do all the checks from Starbucks with WiFi. Or it is just a sales brochure talk.

That is not even sales brochure talk, that is just fantasy.

dtw2hyd wrote:

ET operated 36x737s since 1987. How many nosedived because their MX or Pilots didn't know how to maintain or fly?

Well at least one (ET409). Most of the allegations are allegedly practices done because of ET’s rapid growth in past decade.

dtw2hyd wrote:

If ET is at fault prove it with concrete evidence what ET did wrong with this particular frame and the flight in question, otherwise it is just annoying.

No one said it was ET fault, but brushing aside possible airline safety concerns because “BuT iT’s BoEiNg’S FaULt!!!” is both stupid and dangerous.
 
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zeke
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:25 pm

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
Main things to the speeds is engine throttles.

The pilots did win the Macs and turned it off. But they did not slow the speeding and at the some point, they on the mcas again. The speeding did not get the slow.

Seems the dicesions from the pilots are factor in this trajedy.


With the benefit of hindsight it seems obvious to bring the thrust back. However I would wager that the crew was being presented with a lot of unusual information unexpectedly, and their priorities were drawn into the flight control issue.

No doubt they were very well aware of the Lion Air outcome, and had that “this couldn’t be happening to me” moments of disbelief.

This is where a flight engineer or modern EICAS is most beneficial, it can prioritise the information for the crew.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:30 pm

Polot wrote:
...
No one said it was ET fault, but brushing aside possible airline safety concerns because “BuT iT’s BoEiNg’S FaULt!!!” is both stupid and dangerous.


No one is saying that it is solely Boeing's fault, can you show me ET sponsored NYT, WP articles blaming BCA.

This discussion comes up only when some newspaper publishes a story with an inference that it is customers' fault.

Boeing has been very successful with blame the customer strategy since 787. Fortunately, no one died. So using the same old antics with MAX. Unfortunately, the result is different this time.

Not at all helping the reputation of the American aerospace industry.
 
morrisond
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:54 pm

To all those who think there is nothing wrong at ET and think they won't try to bury evidence you can start your reading here:

The Captain of ET409 went through 737 Initial Type rating at the same time as the Captain of ET302

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ax-456515/

Final Report https://www.bea.aero/docspa/2010/et-b10 ... 125.en.pdf
 
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Polot
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:58 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Polot wrote:
...
No one said it was ET fault, but brushing aside possible airline safety concerns because “BuT iT’s BoEiNg’S FaULt!!!” is both stupid and dangerous.


No one is saying that it is solely Boeing's fault, can you show me ET sponsored NYT, WP articles blaming BCA.

This discussion comes up only when some newspaper publishes a story with an inference that it is customers' fault.

Boeing has been very successful with blame the customer strategy since 787. Fortunately, no one died. So using the same old antics with MAX. Unfortunately, the result is different this time.

Not at all helping the reputation of the American aerospace industry.

So newspapers should just ignore and never publish what a whistleblower says? What’s the statute of limitations-when is the American press allowed to publish articles possibly critics of non-American safety again? Is everything some vast save Boeing/Boeing funded conspiracy? Are ET (and Lionair) untouchable, and should be shielded from any possible criticism?

I’m not going to deny that the whistleblower probably came forward because of Max crash, but immediately burying him and refusing to give him a voice because, well, it’s “just annoying” (your words) is, like I said, stupid and dangerous.
 
itchief
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:06 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Allegations are irrelevant to MAX crash for two reasons.

1) There shouldn't be a need for MX personnel to work on MAX as none of the systems/components would have reached maintenance threshold.
2) Ethiopian mx didn't modify the MCAS code.

Stop blaming customers, and yes most of them are from third world, would be in future, because most growth in aviation is happening there.


So with your logic I am led to believe that systems/components only fail when the "maintenance threshold" is reached? In the world I live in systems/components can fail at anytime.
 
Pyrex
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:09 pm

Francoflier wrote:
DualQual wrote:
PW100 wrote:

They needed all their physical strength pulling on the control column just to keep the nose level and preventing the plane from suiciding itself.
They switched them back on because they saw no other means to maintain nose up input, as they could not maintain physical strength pulling on the control column much longer.

If at all, the lack of training refers to the gym . . .


Because they were going too fast since no one pulled the power back. Also raising the flaps brought MCAS into the equation. Lousy system design by Boeing that was made worse with some poor airmanship.


I'm not sure how many of those who keep claiming 'poor airmanship' would have liked to be in the shoes of these guys on that flight.
Armchair flying months after the facts is easy. I very much doubt the proportion of crews actually able to save the day given the exact same set of circumstances on that day would have been very high.
Those who continue saying that some very proficient crews may have managed that situation completely miss the point and do not understand how airline safety works.

hsuthe19 wrote:
While I still believe Boeing does hold accountability for this crash and that of JT610, not only does this revelation make one wonder whether the MAX grounding was necessary, but also what the work culture at Lion Air is like.


Yes, the grounding is necessary. There is nothing in these allegations that would have directly affected the outcome of ET302.
And of ET302 hadn't happened, then it would eventually have happened to another airline somewhere.

ET may very well have issues with its safety culture, and that should be looked into. That doesn't change the fact that they were sold an unsafe aircraft, maybe even willingly unsafe.
Boeing's corporate/safety culture should very much be looked as well.


And designing a plane is a vastly, vastly more complex task them simply flying one, and yet who and others here, complaining about armchair flying, have no issue with armchair engineering... As usual, South Park was right with their "Captain Hindsight" character.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:00 pm

Polot wrote:
..
So newspapers should just ignore and never publish what a whistleblower says? What’s the statute of limitations-when is the American press allowed to publish articles possibly critics of non-American safety again? Is everything some vast save Boeing/Boeing funded conspiracy? Are ET (and Lionair) untouchable, and should be shielded from any possible criticism?

I’m not going to deny that the whistleblower probably came forward because of Max crash, but immediately burying him and refusing to give him a voice because, well, it’s “just annoying” (your words) is, like I said, stupid and dangerous.


This shouldn't be a NY Times/WP (vs) Seattle Times/Al Jazeera discussion.

It should be an ECAA report (vs) NTSB report discussion.

I will burn that bridge when NTSB finds fault with ECAA report. Until then this is just Paul Revere's silver engraving (vs) British National Archives.
 
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Polot
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:05 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Polot wrote:
..
So newspapers should just ignore and never publish what a whistleblower says? What’s the statute of limitations-when is the American press allowed to publish articles possibly critics of non-American safety again? Is everything some vast save Boeing/Boeing funded conspiracy? Are ET (and Lionair) untouchable, and should be shielded from any possible criticism?

I’m not going to deny that the whistleblower probably came forward because of Max crash, but immediately burying him and refusing to give him a voice because, well, it’s “just annoying” (your words) is, like I said, stupid and dangerous.


This shouldn't be a NY Times/WP (vs) Seattle Times/Al Jazeera discussion.

It should be an ECAA report (vs) NTSB report discussion.

I will burn that bridge when NTSB finds fault with ECAA report. Until then this is just Paul Revere's silver engraving (vs) British National Archives.

This is a discussion on the allegations by ET’s former chief engineer. This is not a discussion on the direct cause of ET302.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:17 pm

planecane wrote:
It might not have happened to another flight. Boeing was working on the MCAS update after lion Air with the intention of rolling it out across the fleet.


They started working on that critical update nearly a year ago. Several fixes later the FAA still hasn't approved the new code.....

morrisond wrote:
To all those who think there is nothing wrong at ET and think they won't try to bury evidence you can start your reading here:


In the last thread you claimed that Ethiopian had emailed out the airworthiness directive out to their flight crew and "didn't even request a read receipt". I asked you for a source on that claim and you ignored me. Any chance of providing a source for that claim now?
First to fly the 787-9
 
morrisond
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:31 pm

zkojq wrote:
planecane wrote:
It might not have happened to another flight. Boeing was working on the MCAS update after lion Air with the intention of rolling it out across the fleet.


They started working on that critical update nearly a year ago. Several fixes later the FAA still hasn't approved the new code.....

morrisond wrote:
To all those who think there is nothing wrong at ET and think they won't try to bury evidence you can start your reading here:


In the last thread you claimed that Ethiopian had emailed out the airworthiness directive out to their flight crew and "didn't even request a read receipt". I asked you for a source on that claim and you ignored me. Any chance of providing a source for that claim now?


I'll have to find that specific article as it deals with events surrounding the MAX specifically. It was from a Pilot who resigned or was fired after complaining that ET was lax in updating MAX procedures.

This one is some good reading though from the Washington Post from 2015 though.

"One pilot accused the airline of employing flight simulator trainers that are not knowledgeable about “aircraft systems, Boeing procedures, or company procedures,” and failing to follow a syllabus for a pilot training course.

“Across the board, 737, 767 [and] 777 [flight simulator] instructors not knowledgeable about the aircraft’s systems, Boeing procedures, or company procedures,” the pilot alleged in the complaint. “Overall, [Ethiopian Airlines] offers substandard training compared to industry norms," the pilot wrote.

"The pilot also noted that “non-normal checklists in the cockpit are not kept current, including complete omission of certain checklists,” referring to documents that instruct pilots on how to respond to “non-normal” equipment behaviors that can become dangerous."

The pilot also noted that “non-normal checklists in the cockpit are not kept current, including complete omission of certain checklists,” referring to documents that instruct pilots on how to respond to “non-normal” equipment behaviors that can become dangerous.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... ords-show/
 
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spinotter
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:46 pm

Revelation wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
Doesn’t absolve Boeing of anything at all, but it seems like Ethiopian needs a serious culture change.

Fear of absolution is a real thing here on a.net.


More exactly defined, fear that the absolved entities are not worthy of absolution.
 
planecane
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:48 pm

zkojq wrote:
planecane wrote:
It might not have happened to another flight. Boeing was working on the MCAS update after lion Air with the intention of rolling it out across the fleet.


They started working on that critical update nearly a year ago. Several fixes later the FAA still hasn't approved the new code.....


Based on all reports, the MCAS 2.0 code is fine. The delays have been due to the other issues that the FAA has insisted be fixed (even though they exist on the NG) after the intense scrutiny. Those issues have required significant changes to the FCC architecture.
 
Bhoy
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:05 pm

morrisond wrote:
zkojq wrote:
planecane wrote:
It might not have happened to another flight. Boeing was working on the MCAS update after lion Air with the intention of rolling it out across the fleet.


They started working on that critical update nearly a year ago. Several fixes later the FAA still hasn't approved the new code.....

morrisond wrote:
To all those who think there is nothing wrong at ET and think they won't try to bury evidence you can start your reading here:


In the last thread you claimed that Ethiopian had emailed out the airworthiness directive out to their flight crew and "didn't even request a read receipt". I asked you for a source on that claim and you ignored me. Any chance of providing a source for that claim now?


I'll have to find that specific article as it deals with events surrounding the MAX specifically. It was from a Pilot who resigned or was fired after complaining that ET was lax in updating MAX procedures.

This one is some good reading though from the Washington Post from 2015 though.

"One pilot accused the airline of employing flight simulator trainers that are not knowledgeable about “aircraft systems, Boeing procedures, or company procedures,” and failing to follow a syllabus for a pilot training course.

“Across the board, 737, 767 [and] 777 [flight simulator] instructors not knowledgeable about the aircraft’s systems, Boeing procedures, or company procedures,” the pilot alleged in the complaint. “Overall, [Ethiopian Airlines] offers substandard training compared to industry norms," the pilot wrote.

"The pilot also noted that “non-normal checklists in the cockpit are not kept current, including complete omission of certain checklists,” referring to documents that instruct pilots on how to respond to “non-normal” equipment behaviors that can become dangerous."

The pilot also noted that “non-normal checklists in the cockpit are not kept current, including complete omission of certain checklists,” referring to documents that instruct pilots on how to respond to “non-normal” equipment behaviors that can become dangerous.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... ords-show/

Surely non compliant checklists would show up in ramp inspections (eg. SAFA checks in Europe) if they were widespread?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:13 pm

Polot wrote:
...
This is a discussion on the allegations by ET’s former chief engineer. This is not a discussion on the direct cause of ET302.


I have to guess you haven't read the article other than the text posted here.

Let me post some selective tidbits from the same article to connect the dots.

The chief engineer is applying for US asylum, making him a reliable and neutral source of information.
ET is a state-owned airline, not necessarily a profit-motivated commercial entity.
MAX was referred at least 10 times in the article.

And this
makes him the latest voice urging investigators to take a closer look at potential human factors in the Max saga and not just focus on Boeing's faulty anti-stall system, which has been blamed in two crashes in four months.


Hence the goal of this news article is at the least to deflect the attention.
 
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PW100
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:18 pm

DualQual wrote:
PW100 wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
So why did the ET pilots turn the trim stabilizer shutoff switch off then back on again? Lack of training.


They needed all their physical strength pulling on the control column just to keep the nose level and preventing the plane from suiciding itself.
They switched them back on because they saw no other means to maintain nose up input, as they could not maintain physical strength pulling on the control column much longer.
If at all, the lack of training refers to the gym . . .

Because they were going too fast since no one pulled the power back. Also raising the flaps brought MCAS into the equation. Lousy system design by Boeing that was made worse with some poor airmanship.


The speed profile was fine until that lousy system design by Boeing made kicked in. At that point they got overwhelmed by issues, which they could not find their way out.
Boeing had never told them the manual (electric) trim did not work at speed below Vmo at certain out of trim condition (enforced by that lousy system design by Boeing).
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
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PW100
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:29 pm

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
Main things to the speeds is engine throttles.

The pilots did win the Macs and turned it off. But they did not slow the speeding and at the some point, they on the mcas again. The speeding did not get the slow.

Seems the dicesions from the pilots are factor in this trajedy.


Funny, my first (on second though it could be my second) flying lesson in a 172 the instructor told me above thinking works in the 2-D world (i.e. automobile).

And then he hammered me to forget the 2-D world, and learned that throttle controlls my rate of climb/descent, and elevator/trim controlls airspeed . . .
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
9w748capt
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:29 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Polot wrote:
...
This is a discussion on the allegations by ET’s former chief engineer. This is not a discussion on the direct cause of ET302.


I have to guess you haven't read the article other than the text posted here.

Let me post some selective tidbits from the same article to connect the dots.

The chief engineer is applying for US asylum, making him a reliable and neutral source of information.


I'm not sure that adds to his case. Applying for US asylum definitely implies that there could be some ulterior motive at play. It's simply in his best interests to make Boeing look good and ET look bad. He has no choice but to dig in at this point.

What's more striking to me is that he seemingly gave up a life of privilege in Ethiopia. It can't be easy to give up a relatively high standard of living in what is still a poor country, with no guarantee of any similar opportunities here in the US.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:42 pm

Play nice.

If your post starts discussing another user, you probably will get warned. Hint, "You need... You believe..." or schoolyard insults are Flamebait.

Please discuss the technical, inform details, we encourage open discussion on the topic.

Discuss airlines in factual terms, not implied insults. Same rules apply to nations. If you cannot handle it said about you, your favorite aircraft, airline, or a nation you care about, perhaps do not post that part.

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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:45 pm

The fact that Ethiopian authorities had demonstrated some hostility in the investigation of a previous ET 737 crash means that the allegations deserves some scrutiny.

Those who are quick to believe everything that has been reported on the Max in terms of Boeing's negligence shouldn't dismiss this immediately, unless you're ok with your own cognitive dissonance.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
asdf
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:59 pm

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Allegations are irrelevant to MAX crash for two reasons.

1) There shouldn't be a need for MX personnel to work on MAX as none of the systems/components would have reached maintenance threshold.
2) Ethiopian mx didn't modify the MCAS code.

Stop blaming customers, and yes most of them are from third world, would be in future, because most growth in aviation is happening there.


Who can we blame for pilots flying MAX at full speed, full throttle and did not even once even try to slowing the Max down? It was pilot's choice.

We know the mcas is not goods. But pilots actions are not perfect either.


if the checklist says
- flaps up
- climb
- max thrust
its not a bad idea to flaps up, climb and apply max thrust, isnt it?

it would have worked out well if not MCAS would have nosedived that bird soon after it
to follow the AD and the suggested runaway trim checklist Unfortunately didnt made it better
 
asdf
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:05 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
The chief engineer is applying for US asylum, making him a reliable and neutral source of information.


so if he want to get that US asylum he has to „deliver“, hasnt he?
deliver something valuable for the US

and that makes him a „.... reliable and neutral source ....“?

LOL
 
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zeke
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:11 pm

9w748capt wrote:
I'm not sure that adds to his case. Applying for US asylum definitely implies that there could be some ulterior motive at play. It's simply in his best interests to make Boeing look good and ET look bad. He has no choice but to dig in at this point.

What's more striking to me is that he seemingly gave up a life of privilege in Ethiopia. It can't be easy to give up a relatively high standard of living in what is still a poor country, with no guarantee of any similar opportunities here in the US.


Someone with their qualifications and experience should be able to walk into a job.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
AABusDrvr
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:23 pm

PW100 wrote:
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
Main things to the speeds is engine throttles.

The pilots did win the Macs and turned it off. But they did not slow the speeding and at the some point, they on the mcas again. The speeding did not get the slow.

Seems the dicesions from the pilots are factor in this trajedy.


Funny, my first (on second though it could be my second) flying lesson in a 172 the instructor told me above thinking works in the 2-D world (i.e. automobile).

And then he hammered me to forget the 2-D world, and learned that throttle controlls my rate of climb/descent, and elevator/trim controlls airspeed . . .


Hopefully he then brought it up that it’s not an absolute statement, only applies in certain phases of flight, and even then, both controls are still required to be used together, to achieve the desired flight path.
 
9w748capt
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:23 pm

zeke wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
I'm not sure that adds to his case. Applying for US asylum definitely implies that there could be some ulterior motive at play. It's simply in his best interests to make Boeing look good and ET look bad. He has no choice but to dig in at this point.

What's more striking to me is that he seemingly gave up a life of privilege in Ethiopia. It can't be easy to give up a relatively high standard of living in what is still a poor country, with no guarantee of any similar opportunities here in the US.


Someone with their qualifications and experience should be able to walk into a job.


Except things are rarely ever that simple in real life.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:24 pm

rheinwaldner wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Boeing is unquestionably a major one, but you cant not blame customers when their pilots dont know how to fly an airplane outside a very narrow window of happy path.

If you want to talk about proportions of blame:
Lets see how broad this happy path normally is and in case of the MAX:
-> Global aviation crash rate 2012-2017: 0.00000024 per flight (-> one crash per 4.16 million flights)
-> Of these, likely contributed by pilot failures: 0.00000021 per flight (-> one crash every 4.76 million flights). This contribution reflects the average pilots proficiency.
-> This leaves the following difference to be contributed by technical failures: 0.00000003 per flight (-> one crash per 33.3 million flights)

The MAX had this crash rate: 0.000008 per flight (-> one crash every 0.125 million flights -> 33 times worse than the global aviation crash rate in the 5 years before the MAX)
As the same pilots were flying the MAX, that contributed 0.00000021 crashes per flight normally, we can take the 0.000008 minues the 0.00000021 to get the contribution of the MAX itself (components contribute to the total failure rate by simple addition). So we get 0.00000779 as the crash contributing failure rate of the MAX. Which is 260 times higher than the 0.00000003 crashes per flight, which are normally contributed by technical failure.

So, as you say, the MAX occasionally has left a very narrow window of happy path for the crews to react. 260 time narrower than with other aircraft so to speak. But we also have to say, that the subpar airlines were likely the first ones to expose this weakness of the MAX. And that migh be in line with this report about ET.

That's some really fancy math there. It's not based on any statistical modeling methodology I ever studied, but it's fancy.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
NWADTWE16
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:38 pm

is this pro-boeing propaganda or what? the depths of this horrid trench continue to amaze. I am honestly in the camp that Boeing should be broken up at this point.
I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list!
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:43 pm

NWADTWE16 wrote:
is this pro-boeing propaganda or what? the depths of this horrid trench continue to amaze. I am honestly in the camp that Boeing should be broken up at this point.


Why is it that everything that points to others being a problem in the MAX fiasco a Pro-Boeing propaganda?

The cognitive dissonance is utterly unbelievable.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
DualQual
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:00 am

PW100 wrote:
DualQual wrote:
PW100 wrote:

They needed all their physical strength pulling on the control column just to keep the nose level and preventing the plane from suiciding itself.
They switched them back on because they saw no other means to maintain nose up input, as they could not maintain physical strength pulling on the control column much longer.
If at all, the lack of training refers to the gym . . .

Because they were going too fast since no one pulled the power back. Also raising the flaps brought MCAS into the equation. Lousy system design by Boeing that was made worse with some poor airmanship.


The speed profile was fine until that lousy system design by Boeing made kicked in. At that point they got overwhelmed by issues, which they could not find their way out.
Boeing had never told them the manual (electric) trim did not work at speed below Vmo at certain out of trim condition (enforced by that lousy system design by Boeing).


The speed profile was not fine. If it was, they’d be alive. No one pulled the power. They continued to accelerate. They raised the flaps which allowed the MCAS to fire. Had they not done any of that they might be alive today. They didn’t. Yes, the MCAS system was poorly designed and implemented. Yes, Boeing is solely at fault for that. However, some questionable airmanship was a link in the chain. A 200 hr FO, contrary to what all the armchair experts want on this site want to think, is an SA suck on even the most experienced Captain in the world. So again, a lousy system (which Boeing is responsible for) coupled with human factors and questionable decision making were all links in the chain that led to the crash.
There's no known cure for stupid
 
Chasensfo
Posts: 212
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Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:17 am

asdf wrote:
Chasensfo wrote:
Going back many years before the crash, engineers and pilot expats on internet forums often said that Ethiopian would not only encourage you to work past your max duty times, but love you and treat you well if you are willing to work longer than legal consistently. I'd imagine that means said workers were not held accountable for violating rules, though I never expressly saw that written. With that in mind, this all doesn't surprise me.
...


have you ever been in africa - for other purposes then recreation - before ...?

nothing to whitewash here
but this is not the western world

not at all if you look behind the scenes

No, and while I am beyond sympathetic to the neglect and indifference that the 1st World has shown most of Africa since de-colonization, this is aviation. Ethiopian is not only a long-standing IATA member, but also a prominent member of the Star Alliance. Just as passengers expect seemless travel, I expect international regulation and standardization, regardless of a countries own politics and welfare. Safety knows no borders.

Put simply, there is a reason that some carriers are blacklisted from the likes of the EU, and that others may even sell tickets on major US/EU/Asian carriers. A consistent level of safety should be expected by said major US/EU/Asian carriers of the carriers with said privileges.
Last edited by Chasensfo on Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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