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Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:54 pm
by GSOflyerDL
There are a slew of jaw-dropping allegations in this AP article on Ethiopian's culture and maintenance record. The following are just a few:
  • Ethiopian maintains a jail-like detention center on the grounds of its Addis Ababa headquarters that it used to interrogate, intimidate and sometimes beat up employees who got out of line.
  • The carrier went into the maintenance records on a Boeing 737 Max jet a day after it crashed this year.
  • Mechanics are overworked and pressed to take shortcuts to get planes cleared for takeoff.
  • Pilots are flying on too little rest and not enough training.
  • Nearly all of the 82 mechanics, inspectors, and supervisors whose files were reviewed for an FAA audit lacked the minimum requirements for doing their jobs.
  • The chief engineer/whistleblower urged the CEO to "personally intervene" to stop mechanics from falsifying records. His plea was ignored.

I'm not sure what impact, if any, these will have on the investigation into the 737 MAX crash, but it paints a damning picture of Ethiopian.

Associated Press Article:https://hosted.ap.org/article/5ff095b8b9954b03925410680e8c907d/engineer-ethiopian-airlines-went-records-after-crash

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:06 pm
by SFOtoORD
Doesn’t absolve Boeing of anything at all, but it seems like Ethiopian needs a serious culture change.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:11 pm
by Revelation
SFOtoORD wrote:
Doesn’t absolve Boeing of anything at all, but it seems like Ethiopian needs a serious culture change.

Fear of absolution is a real thing here on a.net.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:12 pm
by FlyHossD
GSOflyerDL wrote:
There are a slew of jaw-dropping allegations in this AP article on Ethiopian's culture and maintenance record. The following are just a few:
[list]
[*]The carrier went into the maintenance records on a Boeing 737 Max jet a day after it crashed this year.

I'm not sure what impact these will have on the investigation into the 737 MAX crash, but it paints a damning picture of the Ethiopian.

Associated Press Article:https://hosted.ap.org/article/5ff095b8b9954b03925410680e8c907d/engineer-ethiopian-airlines-went-records-after-crash


Reviewing the maintenance records seems prudent in light of a crash (especially in light of Lion Air's multiple failures to identify and correct the AoA faults on the accident airplane); altering those records would be another thing entirely.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:15 pm
by Scarebus34
GSOflyerDL wrote:

I'm not sure what impact these will have on the investigation into the 737 MAX crash, but it paints a damning picture of the Ethiopian.



Nothing... the problem is the airplane.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:16 pm
by Scarebus34
GSOflyerDL wrote:

I'm not sure what impact these will have on the investigation into the 737 MAX crash, but it paints a damning picture of the Ethiopian.



Nothing... the problem is the airplane.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:20 pm
by Revelation
FlyHossD wrote:
GSOflyerDL wrote:
There are a slew of jaw-dropping allegations in this AP article on Ethiopian's culture and maintenance record. The following are just a few:
[list]
[*]The carrier went into the maintenance records on a Boeing 737 Max jet a day after it crashed this year.

I'm not sure what impact these will have on the investigation into the 737 MAX crash, but it paints a damning picture of the Ethiopian.

Associated Press Article:https://hosted.ap.org/article/5ff095b8b9954b03925410680e8c907d/engineer-ethiopian-airlines-went-records-after-crash


Reviewing the maintenance records seems prudent in light of a crash (especially in light of Lion Air's multiple failures to identify and correct the AoA faults on the accident airplane); altering those records would be another thing entirely.

Yes, but that's not for the airline to do.

TFA says:

Aviation experts say that after a crash, maintenance records — specifically, log books and task cards containing notes by pilots and fixes by mechanics — are required by international air safety regulators to be immediately sealed off, and any attempt to manipulate them is a serious violation tantamount to trampling on a crime scene.

Also of note:

Human Rights Watch said in an April report that torture in jails and "unmarked detention centers" have long been a "serious and underreported problem" in Ethiopia, and its former researcher there said he personally interviewed three airline workers who alleged they were tortured by the government, the most recent three years ago.

"It was all about ensuring the positive image of the company and the country is kept intact," said HRW researcher Felix Horne. "Many people who tried to speak out against government-controlled companies were inevitably thrown in prison and beaten up."

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:23 pm
by Polot
Scarebus34 wrote:
GSOflyerDL wrote:

I'm not sure what impact these will have on the investigation into the 737 MAX crash, but it paints a damning picture of the Ethiopian.



Nothing... the problem is the airplane.

You can have a bad airplane...and a bad airline safety culture. The two are not mutually exclusive. If problems with Ethiopian’s culture are uncovered as a result of the crash they should not get a pass and ignored because of Boeing’s poor decisions.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:24 pm
by Antarius
Scarebus34 wrote:
GSOflyerDL wrote:

I'm not sure what impact these will have on the investigation into the 737 MAX crash, but it paints a damning picture of the Ethiopian.



Nothing... the problem is the airplane.


Not so simple. There is a major issue with the airplane, but the lack of airmanship is appalling

But dont let me detract from your rhetoric.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:25 pm
by Antarius
Revelation wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
Doesn’t absolve Boeing of anything at all, but it seems like Ethiopian needs a serious culture change.

Fear of absolution is a real thing here on a.net.


??

Boeing will not be absolved of their design flaws and they shouldn't be. It's not a fear thing - its recognizing their gigantic screw up.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:30 pm
by GSOflyerDL
FlyHossD wrote:
Reviewing the maintenance records seems prudent in light of a crash (especially in light of Lion Air's multiple failures to identify and correct the AoA faults on the accident airplane); altering those records would be another thing entirely.


The AP was pretty careful in not accusing them of altering the records, as there's no evidence of that at this stage. I armchair-hypothesize from reading the article that this was simply a CYA tactic that originated from consciousness of guilt of someone at the airline...an "oh my god what if this is our fault" moment. Further, I want to be clear that I still believe MCAS was the primary cause of the MAX incident, but this makes me think it's possible that sub-par pilot training and/or pilot fatigue *could* have been secondary factors.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:33 pm
by Revelation
Antarius wrote:
Revelation wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
Doesn’t absolve Boeing of anything at all, but it seems like Ethiopian needs a serious culture change.

Fear of absolution is a real thing here on a.net.


??

Boeing will not be absolved of their design flaws and they shouldn't be. It's not a fear thing - its recognizing their gigantic screw up.

And Boeing and FAA have both admitted those flaws, there's no need to fear absolution, yet we see that reflected here in the first response.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:49 pm
by hiflyeras
So why did the ET pilots turn the trim stabilizer shutoff switch off then back on again? Lack of training.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:10 pm
by OmerMaz
The troubled plane itself is one (big) thing.
But those allgeations show a grim photo: Some of the tragic lessons from ET405 were not truely learned and implemented.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:21 pm
by asdf
Revelation wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
GSOflyerDL wrote:
There are a slew of jaw-dropping allegations in this AP article on Ethiopian's culture and maintenance record. The following are just a few:
[list]
[*]The carrier went into the maintenance records on a Boeing 737 Max jet a day after it crashed this year.

I'm not sure what impact these will have on the investigation into the 737 MAX crash, but it paints a damning picture of the Ethiopian.

Associated Press Article:https://hosted.ap.org/article/5ff095b8b9954b03925410680e8c907d/engineer-ethiopian-airlines-went-records-after-crash


Reviewing the maintenance records seems prudent in light of a crash (especially in light of Lion Air's multiple failures to identify and correct the AoA faults on the accident airplane); altering those records would be another thing entirely.

Yes, but that's not for the airline to do.


come on ...
if i would be the CEO and one of my companys plane crashes .... i would be kinda responsible anyway, even if its only morally

i would want to know immediately what was going on ....
what flight deck crew
what plane
what route
how many pax
and of course i want to get the last maintainance records

i would give a **** on any regulations discouraging me from getting informations about processes i am - in the last stage - responsible

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:24 pm
by asdf
hiflyeras wrote:
So why did the ET pilots turn the trim stabilizer shutoff switch off then back on again? Lack of training.


feel free to make your own picture
its all in there
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1432067

and no
no lack of training
everything done according to checklists an AD

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:47 pm
by nycbjr
Let's keep this on topic, not another max/pilot bashing thread! Mods will lock if we go down that path..

that said some serious allegations here.. I hope there is some follow up into this!

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:59 pm
by bob75013
"Ethiopian Airlines' former chief engineer says in a whistleblower complaint filed with regulators that the carrier went into the maintenance records on a Boeing 737 Max jet a day after it crashed this year, a breach he contends was part of a pattern of corruption that included fabricating documents, signing off on shoddy repairs and even beating those who got out of line.

...

""The brutal fact shall be exposed ... Ethiopian Airlines is pursuing the vision of expansion, growth and profitability by compromising safety," Yeshanew said in his report, which he gave to The Associated Press after sending it last month to the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration and other international air safety agencies.

Yeshanew's criticism of Ethiopian's maintenance practices, backed by three other former employees who spoke to AP, makes him the latest voice urging investigators to take a closer look at potential human factors in the Max saga and not just focus on Boeing's faulty anti-stall system, which has been blamed in two crashes in four months.

It's not a coincidence, he said, that Ethiopian saw one of its Max planes go down when many other airlines that fly the plane suffered no such tragedy.

...

"And he produced an FAA audit from three years ago that found, among dozens of other problems, that nearly all of the 82 mechanics, inspectors and supervisors whose files were reviewed lacked the minimum requirements for doing their jobs.

Yeshanew included emails showing he urged top executives for years to end a practice at the airline of signing off on maintenance and repair jobs that he asserts were done incompletely, incorrectly or not at all. He said he stepped up his efforts following the Oct. 29, 2018, crash of a Lion Air Boeing 737 Max in Indonesia that killed all 189 people on board. One email Yeshanew sent to CEO Tewolde Gebremariam urged him to "personally intervene" to stop mechanics from falsifying records.

Those pleas were ignored, he said. And after the March 10, 2019, nosedive crash of an Ethiopian Boeing 737 Max outside Addis Ababa that killed all 157 people on board, Yeshanew said it was clear the mindset had not changed."

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/natio ... ac4b9ecc36

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:04 pm
by bob75013
AABusDrvr wrote:
kalvado wrote:
bob75013 wrote:


...,just from Ethiopian's former chief engineer...

Not that he would have any first hand knowledge...

Not that small exaggeration and a bit of cash cannot turn waiting room at chief pilot office into a torture chamber.
Can be a legitimate whistle blowing, but can easily be a setup to help Boeing out at a time they are in trouble.
So, take with a grain* of salt
*grain - variable unit, can reach up to 25 lb


So the Boeing whistleblowers should be believed without question, and this guy story should be suspect?


Why yes. That is exactly what he wants everyne to believe.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:07 pm
by kalvado
AABusDrvr wrote:
kalvado wrote:
bob75013 wrote:


...,just from Ethiopian's former chief engineer...

Not that he would have any first hand knowledge...

Not that small exaggeration and a bit of cash cannot turn waiting room at chief pilot office into a torture chamber.
Can be a legitimate whistle blowing, but can easily be a setup to help Boeing out at a time they are in trouble.
So, take with a grain* of salt
*grain - variable unit, can reach up to 25 lb


So the Boeing whistleblowers should be believed without question, and this guy story should be suspect?

There is no third party willing to sink Boeing, so there is likely less vested interest in those reports.
I am not totally sure what exact whistle blowing from Boeing side we're talking about as well. Loss of control over system design is a medical fact, not a whistle blower message. MCAS operation and related details are independently confirmed by preliminary reports and even sim demos. Hunt for the guilty, punishment of the innocent, and reward for the uninvolved is, of course, in progress...

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:07 pm
by glideslope
Revelation wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
Doesn’t absolve Boeing of anything at all, but it seems like Ethiopian needs a serious culture change.

Fear of absolution is a real thing here on a.net.


You nailed that one. The culture at ET contributed to the crash far more than most in here are willing to acknowledge. I'm not absolving Boeing of anything. However, one really must view JT 601 and ET 302 with different methodology.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:19 pm
by bob75013
glideslope wrote:
Revelation wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
Doesn’t absolve Boeing of anything at all, but it seems like Ethiopian needs a serious culture change.

Fear of absolution is a real thing here on a.net.


You nailed that one. The culture at ET contributed to the crash far more than most in here are willing to acknowledge. I'm not absolving Boeing of anything. However, one really must view JT 601 and ET 302 with different methodology.


Fear of absolution defined; the fear that anyone or anything other than Boeing will be determined as having played any part in the cause of the two crashes.

Fear of absolution is rampant here.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:19 pm
by MalevTU134
I'm curious about the consequences - or lack thereof - of that FAA report from 3 years ago. So...the FAA finds that virtually all 82 inspected people have no clue at what they are doing when repairing, doing maintenance on and inspecting aircraft...but ET is allowed to keep flying to the US as if nothing had happened? Is that for real??

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:20 pm
by JayinKitsap
There are factors that caused the crashes from the following areas.
- Aircraft Design
- Aircraft Production - did the actual work meet design documents.
- Plane maintenance and operation - is the maintenance of quality and well documented, or is it inadequate. For instance, are replacement instruments actually calibrated and checked out fully to ensure function.
- Pilot training and staffing.

All of these contributed to the accident, it will be the courts to decide what caused what. The key point for A.nut is that safe planes take robust designs, excellent production, quality maintenance, and well experienced pilots. Someone watching the autopilot for 200 hours does not provide any experience when problems arise.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:28 pm
by zeke
I don’t see anything unusual that maintenance record system would be accessed after a crash, it would be the same records system for the entire airline.

These maintenance record systems are designed so that every access is logged and time stamped, database records once submitted cannot be changed. If a mistake is made in a record, airlines don’t go in and change the record, the mistake stays in the system and another record is raised with a correction.

If this person was the head of engineering at the time, they hold the CAA post holder position for the airline and the ultimate responsibility. If it is as they claim while in change, they should be brought up on changes for criminal negligence and numerous other charges relating to the maintenance license. That would naturally prevent them from gaining asylum in the US.

If they had legitimate safety concerns, it was within their power as the engineering post holder and license responsibly to ground aircraft, fire staff, and report illegal activities to the regulator.

This person is not a whistleblower, they should either get the Darwin Award for telling the world of the criminal negligence under their watch, or making it all up to get 5 seconds of fame. Either way they gain nothing, and the airline can turn around and say this happened under his watch, he was in change of engineering.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:47 pm
by PW100
Revelation wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Fear of absolution is a real thing here on a.net.


??

Boeing will not be absolved of their design flaws and they shouldn't be. It's not a fear thing - its recognizing their gigantic screw up.

And Boeing and FAA have both admitted those flaws, there's no need to fear absolution, yet we see that reflected here in the first response.


And we saw the same thing in the opening post. Your point was . . . ?

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:48 pm
by bob75013
zeke wrote:


If they had legitimate safety concerns, it was within their power as the engineering post holder and license responsibly to ground aircraft, fire staff, and report illegal activities to the regulator.



and be beaten for doing so?

Again one of the allegations from the first post in this thread reads

"Ethiopian maintains a jail-like detention center on the grounds of its Addis Ababa headquarters that it used to interrogate, intimidate and sometimes beat up employees who got out of line.

I would imagine that if Ethopian was unsafe, and the chief engineer protested inside the airline (and was ignored) that if he tried to ground the ariline, that he might well find himself in a detention center.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:52 pm
by PW100
hiflyeras wrote:
So why did the ET pilots turn the trim stabilizer shutoff switch off then back on again? Lack of training.


They needed all their physical strength pulling on the control column just to keep the nose level and preventing the plane from suiciding itself.
They switched them back on because they saw no other means to maintain nose up input, as they could not maintain physical strength pulling on the control column much longer.

If at all, the lack of training refers to the gym . . .

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:55 pm
by kalvado
bob75013 wrote:
zeke wrote:


If they had legitimate safety concerns, it was within their power as the engineering post holder and license responsibly to ground aircraft, fire staff, and report illegal activities to the regulator.



and be beaten for doing so?

Which is again a totally valid concern, unfortunately. Retribution against alarmists is not unheard of, even in best organisations.
Now that whistle-blower voice would be way more powerful while ET302 was still a hot topic, not 7 months later when another company involved faces existential crisis and tries to unload as much responsibility as they can.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:08 pm
by Vio
These are two separate issues! One is Boeing's problem, the other one is Ethiopian's problem. I have no doubt each need improvement.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:20 pm
by aerolimani
bob75013 wrote:
glideslope wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Fear of absolution is a real thing here on a.net.


You nailed that one. The culture at ET contributed to the crash far more than most in here are willing to acknowledge. I'm not absolving Boeing of anything. However, one really must view JT 601 and ET 302 with different methodology.


Fear of absolution defined; the fear that anyone or anything other than Boeing will be determined as having played any part in the cause of the two crashes.

Fear of absolution is rampant here.

What fear? No amount of reasonably expectable blame distribution, in the case of either crash, will sufficiently exonerate Boeing for the massiveness of their design cock-up. Certainly, nothing approaching absolution, or at least not in the mind of someone thinking objectively.

In addition, with everything we now understand about MCAS, any such reasonable blame directed at the accident crews (or their airlines), would have zero effect on the validity of the grounding.

So, there’s really nothing to fear.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:21 pm
by AndyW35
The claim that an airline us beating people who work for it seems to being glossed over, surely that is not worthy of conversation even without the crash?

Perhaps airline companies beating their staff is yesterday's news though?

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:37 pm
by Checklist787
I can not imagine what would be the policy of Lion Air too.

And if the 737MAX does not deserve the grounding too? What I mean is that if the AOA's were well repaired then MCAS could not have made a mistake?

It's just an existential question...

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:38 pm
by aerolimani
AndyW35 wrote:
The claim that an airline us beating people who work for it seems to being glossed over, surely that is not worthy of conversation even without the crash?

Perhaps airline companies beating their staff is yesterday's news though?

Glossed over? Well… I guess that for many people, the idea that this could happen just doesn't seem shocking. That doesn't mean it shouldn't shock us, but… well, that seems to be the world we live in now. Of course, at the moment, all we have is one ex-employees statements in a media interview. Granted, I don't have much reason to disbelieve him either. Certainly, the allegations are worthy of investigation, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:47 pm
by lightsaber
Discuss the topic. Do not use flaimbait terms to discuss the subject.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:53 pm
by DualQual
PW100 wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
So why did the ET pilots turn the trim stabilizer shutoff switch off then back on again? Lack of training.


They needed all their physical strength pulling on the control column just to keep the nose level and preventing the plane from suiciding itself.
They switched them back on because they saw no other means to maintain nose up input, as they could not maintain physical strength pulling on the control column much longer.

If at all, the lack of training refers to the gym . . .


Because they were going too fast since no one pulled the power back. Also raising the flaps brought MCAS into the equation. Lousy system design by Boeing that was made worse with some poor airmanship.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:58 pm
by GSOflyerDL
zeke wrote:
If they had legitimate safety concerns, it was within their power as the engineering post holder and license responsibly to ground aircraft, fire staff, and report illegal activities to the regulator.


You do realize that Ethiopian Airlines is wholly owned by the Ethiopian Government? The regulator and the airline are run by the same entity. Did you read the article in full?

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:05 pm
by zeke
bob75013 wrote:

and be beaten for doing so?


Again having to state the obvious, if such techniques were used on employees, it must be reasonable to think they would be personally culpable for that treatment to staff that they managed.

If as the article suggests the person had a long distinguished career at the airline raising through the ranks, and this was in fact used, they were part of the system the purported to have committed these acts.

Why are these serious allegations only coming forward now ?

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:20 pm
by zeke
GSOflyerDL wrote:

You do realize that Ethiopian Airlines is wholly owned by the Ethiopian Government? The regulator and the airline are run by the same entity. Did you read the article in full?


I did read the article in full, however I do not share your conspiracy theories.

While the airline is owned by the state, and the ECAA comes under the department of transport, I reject the idea that members of the government (ie the politicians) are involved in the day to day operations of those organisations.

If as the person claims procedures and practices were deliberately missed, a politician would not have the technical expertise to give such a direction. That direction would come from the engineering post holder or people who report to them.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:52 pm
by hsuthe19
While I still believe Boeing does hold accountability for this crash and that of JT610, not only does this revelation make one wonder whether the MAX grounding was necessary, but also what the work culture at Lion Air is like.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:50 pm
by Francoflier
DualQual wrote:
PW100 wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
So why did the ET pilots turn the trim stabilizer shutoff switch off then back on again? Lack of training.


They needed all their physical strength pulling on the control column just to keep the nose level and preventing the plane from suiciding itself.
They switched them back on because they saw no other means to maintain nose up input, as they could not maintain physical strength pulling on the control column much longer.

If at all, the lack of training refers to the gym . . .


Because they were going too fast since no one pulled the power back. Also raising the flaps brought MCAS into the equation. Lousy system design by Boeing that was made worse with some poor airmanship.


I'm not sure how many of those who keep claiming 'poor airmanship' would have liked to be in the shoes of these guys on that flight.
Armchair flying months after the facts is easy. I very much doubt the proportion of crews actually able to save the day given the exact same set of circumstances on that day would have been very high.
Those who continue saying that some very proficient crews may have managed that situation completely miss the point and do not understand how airline safety works.

hsuthe19 wrote:
While I still believe Boeing does hold accountability for this crash and that of JT610, not only does this revelation make one wonder whether the MAX grounding was necessary, but also what the work culture at Lion Air is like.


Yes, the grounding is necessary. There is nothing in these allegations that would have directly affected the outcome of ET302.
And of ET302 hadn't happened, then it would eventually have happened to another airline somewhere.

ET may very well have issues with its safety culture, and that should be looked into. That doesn't change the fact that they were sold an unsafe aircraft, maybe even willingly unsafe.
Boeing's corporate/safety culture should very much be looked as well.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:58 pm
by kimimm19
Revelation wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Fear of absolution is a real thing here on a.net.


??

Boeing will not be absolved of their design flaws and they shouldn't be. It's not a fear thing - its recognizing their gigantic screw up.

And Boeing and FAA have both admitted those flaws, there's no need to fear absolution, yet we see that reflected here in the first response.



If anything, aviation has been incredibly lucky recently that all these unreliable (relative) software, manufacturing, material, etc hasn't cost more lives.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:29 am
by glideslope
DualQual wrote:
PW100 wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
So why did the ET pilots turn the trim stabilizer shutoff switch off then back on again? Lack of training.


They needed all their physical strength pulling on the control column just to keep the nose level and preventing the plane from suiciding itself.
They switched them back on because they saw no other means to maintain nose up input, as they could not maintain physical strength pulling on the control column much longer.

If at all, the lack of training refers to the gym . . .


Because they were going too fast since no one pulled the power back. Also raising the flaps brought MCAS into the equation. Lousy system design by Boeing that was made worse with some poor airmanship.


Correct. It’s always a combination of events.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:48 am
by BoeingVista
zeke wrote:
bob75013 wrote:

and be beaten for doing so?


Again having to state the obvious, if such techniques were used on employees, it must be reasonable to think they would be personally culpable for that treatment to staff that they managed.

If as the article suggests the person had a long distinguished career at the airline raising through the ranks, and this was in fact used, they were part of the system the purported to have committed these acts.

Why are these serious allegations only coming forward now ?


Yonas Yeshanew, who resigned this summer and is seeking asylum in the U.S.


He hopes that by doing Boeing a solid he will get his asylum application stamped, if this isn't enough as chief engineer he is surely implicated in any mismanagement. His motives are highly suspect so without corroboration this is simple ass covering here-say.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:53 am
by dtw2hyd
Allegations are irrelevant to MAX crash for two reasons.

1) There shouldn't be a need for MX personnel to work on MAX as none of the systems/components would have reached maintenance threshold.
2) Ethiopian mx didn't modify the MCAS code.

Stop blaming customers, and yes most of them are from third world, would be in future, because most growth in aviation is happening there.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:58 am
by planecane
Francoflier wrote:
DualQual wrote:
PW100 wrote:

They needed all their physical strength pulling on the control column just to keep the nose level and preventing the plane from suiciding itself.
They switched them back on because they saw no other means to maintain nose up input, as they could not maintain physical strength pulling on the control column much longer.

If at all, the lack of training refers to the gym . . .


Because they were going too fast since no one pulled the power back. Also raising the flaps brought MCAS into the equation. Lousy system design by Boeing that was made worse with some poor airmanship.


I'm not sure how many of those who keep claiming 'poor airmanship' would have liked to be in the shoes of these guys on that flight.
Armchair flying months after the facts is easy. I very much doubt the proportion of crews actually able to save the day given the exact same set of circumstances on that day would have been very high.
Those who continue saying that some very proficient crews may have managed that situation completely miss the point and do not understand how airline safety works.

hsuthe19 wrote:
While I still believe Boeing does hold accountability for this crash and that of JT610, not only does this revelation make one wonder whether the MAX grounding was necessary, but also what the work culture at Lion Air is like.


Yes, the grounding is necessary. There is nothing in these allegations that would have directly affected the outcome of ET302.
And of ET302 hadn't happened, then it would eventually have happened to another airline somewhere.

ET may very well have issues with its safety culture, and that should be looked into. That doesn't change the fact that they were sold an unsafe aircraft, maybe even willingly unsafe.
Boeing's corporate/safety culture should very much be looked as well.


It might not have happened to another flight. Boeing was working on the MCAS update after lion Air with the intention of rolling it out across the fleet.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:02 am
by planecane
BoeingVista wrote:
zeke wrote:
bob75013 wrote:

and be beaten for doing so?


Again having to state the obvious, if such techniques were used on employees, it must be reasonable to think they would be personally culpable for that treatment to staff that they managed.

If as the article suggests the person had a long distinguished career at the airline raising through the ranks, and this was in fact used, they were part of the system the purported to have committed these acts.

Why are these serious allegations only coming forward now ?


Yonas Yeshanew, who resigned this summer and is seeking asylum in the U.S.


He hopes that by doing Boeing a solid he will get his asylum application stamped, if this isn't enough as chief engineer he is surely implicated in any mismanagement. His motives are highly suspect so without corroboration this is simple ass covering here-say.

While there is a good chance you are right about the motive, it isn't hearsay if he had direct knowledge. Hearsay is repeating something that somebody else said

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:08 am
by BoeingVista
planecane wrote:
While there is a good chance you are right about the motive, it isn't hearsay if he had direct knowledge. Hearsay is repeating something that somebody else said


He only has direct knowledge, say of the beatings, if he was actually there in which case he is implicated. Much more likely that he is repeating something he was told.

I don't think its credible to maintain that he was an eyewitness to all of the events he asserts.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:24 am
by bob75013
dtw2hyd wrote:
Allegations are irrelevant to MAX crash for two reasons.

1) There shouldn't be a need for MX personnel to work on MAX as none of the systems/components would have reached maintenance threshold.
2) Ethiopian mx didn't modify the MCAS code.

Stop blaming customers, and yes most of them are from third world, would be in future, because most growth in aviation is happening there.


Correction: it was Ethiopan's former chief engineer that was blaming his own company -- ie the customer.

Re: Chief Engineer: Ethiopian Airlines Went Into Records After 737 MAX Crash

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:29 am
by Antarius
dtw2hyd wrote:
Allegations are irrelevant to MAX crash for two reasons.

1) There shouldn't be a need for MX personnel to work on MAX as none of the systems/components would have reached maintenance threshold.
2) Ethiopian mx didn't modify the MCAS code.

Stop blaming customers, and yes most of them are from third world, would be in future, because most growth in aviation is happening there.


So next bird strike, we should just wait until the maintenance threshold? Ludicrous position to take. Stuff breaks, maintenance fixes it.

Accidents have several causes. Boeing is unquestionably a major one, but you cant not blame customers when their pilots dont know how to fly an airplane outside a very narrow window of happy path.

Also, there is no reason to expect high standards in aviation everywhere and strive for it. It's not like every country "first" or "third" world magically got there. It takes work, course correction and more work to get it right. But it's easier to just point fingers at one cause, ignore everything else and feel good about yourself.