xjetflyer2001
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Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:42 pm

I saw a small mention of this on an old thread that is now locked, so apparently this routing has been done before, but on airline routes it was just posted that in 2020 Air France will start a triangle route of Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris, I just can’t hardly believe it’s true, is Air France really going to fly an A332 between Kinshasa and Brazzaville? How long of a flight is that? Seems like a waste of fuel to me.
 
Longhornmaniac
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:47 pm

How do you figure? There are people that want to go from Paris to Kenshasa and Paris to Brazzaville, but perhaps not enough to fill up each separately. This way they get two markets with just one aircraft.

It would be a much larger waste of fuel to fly an A332 from Paris to each separately, half-full.
Cheers,
Cameron
 
xjetflyer2001
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:52 pm

Longhornmaniac wrote:
How do you figure? There are people that want to go from Paris to Kenshasa and Paris to Brazzaville, but perhaps not enough to fill up each separately. This way they get two markets with just one aircraft.

It would be a much larger waste of fuel to fly an A332 from Paris to each separately, half-full.


To me this makes about as much sense as flying Chicago to El Paso to Juarez to Chicago
 
behramjee
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:54 pm

Longhornmaniac wrote:
How do you figure? There are people that want to go from Paris to Kenshasa and Paris to Brazzaville, but perhaps not enough to fill up each separately. This way they get two markets with just one aircraft.

It would be a much larger waste of fuel to fly an A332 from Paris to each separately, half-full.


100% correct...this is a very good commercially oriented move.

Also note that BA does the same with LHR-BAH-DMM with BAH-DMM being simiar flying time as FIH-BZV.
 
xjetflyer2001
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:57 pm

Well I just thought it odd, but, I’m no aviation route planner/financial advisor, so I just wonder why they don’t consolidate the flight into one and have people cross the border between two neighboring cities the old fashioned way, by land/ferry boat, I didn’t know BA flew Bahrain to Dammam
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:58 pm

xjetflyer2001 wrote:
Longhornmaniac wrote:
How do you figure? There are people that want to go from Paris to Kenshasa and Paris to Brazzaville, but perhaps not enough to fill up each separately. This way they get two markets with just one aircraft.

It would be a much larger waste of fuel to fly an A332 from Paris to each separately, half-full.


To me this makes about as much sense as flying Chicago to El Paso to Juarez to Chicago

Exactly. If there isn't enough (profitable) traffic to each destination in its own right, you combine the two. I don't see why the two destinations being very close to each other bothers you. If they were, say, 1000 miles apart, would it make more sense to you? It's called a triangle flight. It used to be very common and still exists all over the world on many airlines.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:00 pm

xjetflyer2001 wrote:
Well I just thought it odd, but, I’m no aviation route planner/financial advisor, so I just wonder why they don’t consolidate the flight into one and have people cross the border between two neighboring cities the old fashioned way, by land/ferry boat, I didn’t know BA flew Bahrain to Dammam

Land between Brazzaville and Kinshasa? How?

By ferry....have you seen Congolese ferries?

If you serve both cities, then you...eh...serve both cities. Meaning you fly to both. Quite simple, really.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:02 pm

xjetflyer2001 wrote:
I saw a small mention of this on an old thread that is now locked, so apparently this routing has been done before, but on airline routes it was just posted that in 2020 Air France will start a triangle route of Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris, I just can’t hardly believe it’s true, is Air France really going to fly an A332 between Kinshasa and Brazzaville? How long of a flight is that? Seems like a waste of fuel to me.


United recenlty flew a flight from BUR-LAX and many have flown JFK-LGA to reposition flights. This may work best by allowing enough passengers to fly both Long range segments that otherwise would be a loss maker.
 
xjetflyer2001
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:07 pm

Wow! I was just curious, lots of hostility in some of these reply’s, and sure triangle routes were the norm back in the day, that’s also when airliners didn’t hold the capacity or have the range they have today, also, sure the conditions between the two cities on a ferry may not be ideal to someone whose not used to it, but to the locals I’m sure it’s very normal, anyway, like I said before, it was just a question and struck me as odd, so I wanted some insight, thanks for the reply’s
 
jbs2886
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:13 pm

xjetflyer2001 wrote:
Wow! I was just curious, lots of hostility in some of these reply’s, and sure triangle routes were the norm back in the day, that’s also when airliners didn’t hold the capacity or have the range they have today, also, sure the conditions between the two cities on a ferry may not be ideal to someone whose not used to it, but to the locals I’m sure it’s very normal, anyway, like I said before, it was just a question and struck me as odd, so I wanted some insight, thanks for the reply’s


Actually, AF does a lot of triangle routes in Africa currently (so does KLM).
 
airbuster
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:20 pm

Well I for one understand your being intrigued about this route. But we are talking 2 different countries and it might be difficult to transition swiftly between the 2 capitals. I guess there is a market and people are willing to pay. I’m sure this will be the most reliable and swift transition from Kinshasa to Brazzaville.
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
 
ei146
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:20 pm

Something else to consider: Kinshasa and Brazzaville are in two different countries. Most Europeans need visas to enter each of them. While the ferry transfer seems easy it may be completely impossible if you don't have the right visa.
 
xjetflyer2001
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:02 pm

Since I have been painfully enlightened that these triangle routes are still fairly common, what are some other routes, say less than 50 to 60 miles on wide body aircraft, that are flown in this manner?
 
ei146
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:23 pm

KLM 769 AMS-AUA-BON-AMS
 
dredgy
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:32 pm

xjetflyer2001 wrote:
Well I just thought it odd, but, I’m no aviation route planner/financial advisor, so I just wonder why they don’t consolidate the flight into one and have people cross the border between two neighboring cities the old fashioned way, by land/ferry boat, I didn’t know BA flew Bahrain to Dammam


Have you tried that border crossing? The two cities are on opposite banks of the river but there’s no real easy way to cross. While there was I believe talk of a bridge, I don’t think Kinshasa really wants to make it easy either as ROC doesn’t want a flood of people coming in from DRC. I believe several local airlines operate the route in a triangular fashion to avoid the mess that is the ferry (you have to bribe like 10 people to make the crossing)

As for Air France, they probably won’t make a lot of money flying between the two cities, but the waste of fuel on one tiny flight will be more than made up by being able to connect both cities to Paris.
 
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FlyRow
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:33 pm

KLM:
Liberia and San José in Costa rica in a triangle pattern. 250km apart.

KLM and TUI netherlands operate triangle flight between Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao in alternating patterns. No local rights.
Islands are 70km and 100km apart.
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:34 pm

xjetflyer2001 wrote:
Since I have been painfully enlightened that these triangle routes are still fairly common, what are some other routes, say less than 50 to 60 miles on wide body aircraft, that are flown in this manner?

You will be hard pressed to find something that short, I guess, except the one you brought up, and the ones between the ABC Islands. But it is really just the short distance between BZV and FIH that makes this routing somewhat special.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:36 pm

airbuster wrote:
Well I for one understand your being intrigued about this route. But we are talking 2 different countries and it might be difficult to transition swiftly between the 2 capitals. I guess there is a market and people are willing to pay. I’m sure this will be the most reliable and swift transition from Kinshasa to Brazzaville.

I would be surprised to hear that AF has local traffic rights on BZV-FIH.
 
IADCA
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:38 pm

xjetflyer2001 wrote:
Wow! I was just curious, lots of hostility in some of these reply’s, and sure triangle routes were the norm back in the day, that’s also when airliners didn’t hold the capacity or have the range they have today, also, sure the conditions between the two cities on a ferry may not be ideal to someone whose not used to it, but to the locals I’m sure it’s very normal, anyway, like I said before, it was just a question and struck me as odd, so I wanted some insight, thanks for the reply’s


So, are they supposed to put the airplane on the ferry too? How else does it get from Kinshasa to Brazzaville besides flying? Or are you seriously proposing that they fly one mostly empty plane from Paris to Kinshasa and back one from Paris to Brazzaville and back, rather than flying a single, mostly-full airplane to cover both cities? That proposal would be a much larger waste of fuel, wouldn't it?
Last edited by IADCA on Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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eastafspot
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:39 pm

Longhornmaniac wrote:
It would be a much larger waste of fuel to fly an A332 from Paris to each separately, half-full.


If it goes daily to both destinations it may harm SN, TK, ET and the likes.
As of now, I think it's 3/7 to BZV and 4/7 to FIH.

Btw in the past, some 5th freedom were available by KQ and ET on this 20 min route.
Fly with Air Burundi, Air Tanzania, Golden Wings Aviation, Kenya Airways, RwandAir and Uganda Airlines...Jumuiya ya Afrika mashariki !
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:41 pm

eastafspot wrote:
Longhornmaniac wrote:
It would be a much larger waste of fuel to fly an A332 from Paris to each separately, half-full.


If it goes daily to both destinations it may harm SN, TK, ET and the likes.
As of now, I think it's 3/7 to BZV and 4/7 to FIH.

Btw in the past, some 5th freedom were available by KQ and ET on this 20 min route.

I believe Swissair and UTA, too, had 5th freedim rights there, waaay back.
 
Ka6
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:07 pm

From the mid 80s to the late 90s, Sabena ran plenty of those sort of routes on the African continent, most prominently in West Africa. Their A310s were a pretty good fit for those, with their ability to suffer short hops graciously. Flights were often packed to the gills, both ways. They make sense for all the reasons indicated above. Plus, cargo space was precious. Crew scheduling was epic at times. I imagine those routes have not changed all that much in nature and demand has only increased.
 
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OA940
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:21 pm

While not 60 miles, these triangle routes in Africa are very common for European airlines, considering, like poeple said, one city may not be enough to justify the use of a widebody which could make more money elsewhere, but combine two of those cities and you get what you were seeking. Also since someone above mentioned TUI they apparently fly AMS-SFB-MIA-AMS, which is a fun little route, but I'm fairly certain they don't sell tickets on the SFB-MIA segment
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xjetflyer2001
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:25 pm

OA940 wrote:
While not 60 miles, these triangle routes in Africa are very common for European airlines, considering, like poeple said, one city may not be enough to justify the use of a widebody which could make more money elsewhere, but combine two of those cities and you get what you were seeking. Also since someone above mentioned TUI they apparently fly AMS-SFB-MIA-AMS, which is a fun little route, but I'm fairly certain they don't sell tickets on the SFB-MIA segment


Wow, that is a pretty interesting routing.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:33 pm

I was in a Brazzaville restaurant, Mama Wate’s, and there was an AF crew there on layover. Better and safer than Kin at the time. I doubt Kin is any safer now.

GF
 
airbazar
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:36 pm

These triangle routes are very common in Africa. Lots of airlines do it and the main reason is that each of the markets by themselves is not large enough to fill a plane from Europe so airlines combine 2 destinations for the same plane. SN and AF have been doing it for decades. EK also does triangle routes in Africa (or used to). The fact that Kinshasa and Brazzaville are so close to eachother is interesting but a mere coincidence because this flight is unlikely to carry any passengers between Kinshasa and Brazzaville. These types of routes are for people who want to travel from France to either Kinshasa or Brazzaville, or from either Kinshasa or Brazzaville to France.
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:37 pm

FlyRow wrote:
KLM:
Liberia and San José in Costa rica in a triangle pattern. 250km apart.

KLM and TUI netherlands operate triangle flight between Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao in alternating patterns. No local rights.
Islands are 70km and 100km apart.



KLM doesn’t have local rights on flight to-from Aruba, Bonaire, or Curaçao?

Aren’t they all parts of the Netherlands?
Boiler Up!
 
alan3
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:41 pm

As mentioned above Air France, KLM and Brussels Airlines all fly a number of triangle routes to Africa.

I did it recently and have to say it's a little odd when you are boarding in the middle leg. I recently boarded in KGL on a AMS-KGL-EBB-AMS flight. Was odd boarding a plane that had the mess of a flight that just flown 8 hours. And was odd having cleaners board during your layover with vaccuum cleaners going up and down the aisles and under your seat while you are sitting there!
 
conwaykyle
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:45 pm

The flying time between kinshasha and brazzaville 35 minutes
 
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FlyRow
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:48 pm

alan3 wrote:
As mentioned above Air France, KLM and Brussels Airlines all fly a number of triangle routes to Africa.

I did it recently and have to say it's a little odd when you are boarding in the middle leg. I recently boarded in KGL on a AMS-KGL-EBB-AMS flight. Was odd boarding a plane that had the mess of a flight that just flown 8 hours. And was odd having cleaners board during your layover with vaccuum cleaners going up and down the aisles and under your seat while you are sitting there!


KLM has a lot of these.
Amsterdam-Kuwait City-Doha
Amsterdam-Bahrein-Muscat
(Or one of these combi's, they get mixed and matched often)
Amsterdam-Kigali-Entebbe
Amsterdam-Kilimanjaro-Dar Es Salaam
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
xjetflyer2001
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:50 pm

airbazar wrote:
These triangle routes are very common in Africa. Lots of airlines do it and the main reason is that each of the markets by themselves is not large enough to fill a plane from Europe so airlines combine 2 destinations for the same plane. SN and AF have been doing it for decades. EK also does triangle routes in Africa (or used to). The fact that Kinshasa and Brazzaville are so close to eachother is interesting but a mere coincidence because this flight is unlikely to carry any passengers between Kinshasa and Brazzaville. These types of routes are for people who want to travel from France to either Kinshasa or Brazzaville, or from either Kinshasa or Brazzaville to France.


Thank You for that explanation, that makes sense to hit the 2 destinations at once, to get more pax, I guess the closeness of the two cities just made it funny to me.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:51 pm

Web500sjc wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
KLM:
Liberia and San José in Costa rica in a triangle pattern. 250km apart.

KLM and TUI netherlands operate triangle flight between Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao in alternating patterns. No local rights.
Islands are 70km and 100km apart.



KLM doesn’t have local rights on flight to-from Aruba, Bonaire, or Curaçao?

Aren’t they all parts of the Netherlands?

If you mean inter-island, then, no.

Aruba and Curaçao are independent countries within the Kingdom of The Netherlands. Bonaire is a municipality (but belongs to no province) of The Netherlands.
 
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FlyRow
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:52 pm

Web500sjc wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
KLM:
Liberia and San José in Costa rica in a triangle pattern. 250km apart.

KLM and TUI netherlands operate triangle flight between Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao in alternating patterns. No local rights.
Islands are 70km and 100km apart.



KLM doesn’t have local rights on flight to-from Aruba, Bonaire, or Curaçao?

Aren’t they all parts of the Netherlands?


No! All are part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, however not all are the Netherlands.
It's also not classed as a domestic but as a intercontinental route.

Aruba and Curacao and St Maarten are both independent countries within the Kingdom of the Netherlands
Bonaire, St. Eustatius and saba are special municipalities of the Netherlands proper, although they maintain the status of an overseas territory of the European Union.
Last edited by FlyRow on Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:52 pm

FlyRow wrote:
alan3 wrote:
As mentioned above Air France, KLM and Brussels Airlines all fly a number of triangle routes to Africa.

I did it recently and have to say it's a little odd when you are boarding in the middle leg. I recently boarded in KGL on a AMS-KGL-EBB-AMS flight. Was odd boarding a plane that had the mess of a flight that just flown 8 hours. And was odd having cleaners board during your layover with vaccuum cleaners going up and down the aisles and under your seat while you are sitting there!


KLM has a lot of these.
Amsterdam-Kuwait City-Doha
Amsterdam-Bahrein-Muscat
(Or one of these combi's, they get mixed and matched often)
Amsterdam-Kigali-Entebbe
Amsterdam-Kilimanjaro-Dar Es Salaam

Amsterdam - Bogotá - Cartagena - Amsterdam
 
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eastafspot
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:04 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I was in a Brazzaville restaurant, Mama Wate’s, and there was an AF crew there on layover. Better and safer than Kin at the time. I doubt Kin is any safer now.

You are absolutely right - thanks. And I wanted to mention this earlier on also. But I fail(ed) to remember if the FIH-CDG flight is currently nonstop or not, and if not, where it does stop now to pick up the crew.
Until recently (2-3 years ago), crew were accommodated at the Grand Hotel Kinshasa with an escort all along the way of course! :smile:
Fly with Air Burundi, Air Tanzania, Golden Wings Aviation, Kenya Airways, RwandAir and Uganda Airlines...Jumuiya ya Afrika mashariki !
 
xjetflyer2001
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:06 pm

eastafspot wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I was in a Brazzaville restaurant, Mama Wate’s, and there was an AF crew there on layover. Better and safer than Kin at the time. I doubt Kin is any safer now.

You are absolutely right - thanks. And I wanted to mention this earlier on also. But I fail(ed) to remember if the FIH-CDG flight is currently nonstop or not, and if not, where it does stop now to pick up the crew.
Until recently (2-3 years ago), crew were accommodated at the Grand Hotel Kinshasa with an escort all along the way of course! :smile:


I've never been to either but is Brazzaville that much safer than Kinshasa?
 
elmothehobo
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:13 pm

Another reason not cited yet may be crew accommodation. Kinshasa is an incredibly expensive and difficult city to operate out of. It can take hours to get from N'Djili to Gombe, the neighborhood where most of the high end hotels are located. Brazzaville (and the RoC for the most part) is much more stable, less expensive, and has more Western hotels available. There was one occasion in 2016 that a foreign carrier serving Kinshasa actually chartered an aircraft to fly its crews from N'Djili to Brazzaville and vice-versa rather than have them deal with protests along the main road connecting the airport to the city.

It's already been partly alluded to in this thread, but while Brazzaville and Kinshasa sit directly across the Congo River from each other, they may as well be on different continents. The closest bridge is well over one hundred kilometers away (and it's a small one-two lane bridge), ferry service between the two cities can be sporadic and unreliable, and even if you can secure a ferry, it can be administratively cumbersome process (e.g. bribes, constantly changing requirements travel requirements). The idea that Brazzaville and Kinshasa are like El Paso and Ciudad Juarez simply does not compare; in effect, the Congo River's 2-3km width creates a practical barrier that may as we well be several hundred kilometers.
 
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YSAPW
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:20 pm

Iberia flight from MAD - GUA - SAL - MAD. The distance between GUA-SAL is about 100 nm, and its done in a A330. IB has also the right to carry passengers from GUA to SAL only.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:34 pm

xjetflyer2001 wrote:
eastafspot wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I was in a Brazzaville restaurant, Mama Wate’s, and there was an AF crew there on layover. Better and safer than Kin at the time. I doubt Kin is any safer now.

You are absolutely right - thanks. And I wanted to mention this earlier on also. But I fail(ed) to remember if the FIH-CDG flight is currently nonstop or not, and if not, where it does stop now to pick up the crew.
Until recently (2-3 years ago), crew were accommodated at the Grand Hotel Kinshasa with an escort all along the way of course! :smile:


I've never been to either but is Brazzaville that much safer than Kinshasa?


These things are relative and both have had their security issues, but yes, I’d put Brazzaville ahead of Kinshasa in that area. Brazzaville is actually, the two times I’ve been, a quiet layover. I wouldn’t walk around in the dark of night, but going out to dinner and drinks with local business contacts didn’t feel threatening. It was memorable to sit eating a great pizza, bottles of wine watching the flickering lights of Kin 10 miles away across the Congo while kids paddled dugouts.

GF
 
praunda
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:34 pm

xjetflyer2001 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
While not 60 miles, these triangle routes in Africa are very common for European airlines, considering, like poeple said, one city may not be enough to justify the use of a widebody which could make more money elsewhere, but combine two of those cities and you get what you were seeking. Also since someone above mentioned TUI they apparently fly AMS-SFB-MIA-AMS, which is a fun little route, but I'm fairly certain they don't sell tickets on the SFB-MIA segment


Wow, that is a pretty interesting routing.


As mentioned above, these are indeed still extremely common throughout Africa, and while 5th-freedom rights aren't always in place between the shorter city pairs, often times it is possible to buy a seat on just the intra-African leg; this is often popular despite the short distance because overland travel (traffic, road conditions, border crossings, and safety) make a journey by car unappealing, difficult, or even dangerous.

Personally in just the past few years I have flown Dakar DSS-Banjul BJL on SN, less than 200 miles ATCF but possibly a 10-hour drive, and Accra-Lomé, which is something like 125mi ATCF but can take 5-6 hours overland (I've also driven that several times). Kinshasa and Brazzaville are, I believe, the two closest capital cities in the world, so I think it is an especially unique situation.
 
tonystan
Posts: 1667
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:37 pm

behramjee wrote:
Longhornmaniac wrote:
How do you figure? There are people that want to go from Paris to Kenshasa and Paris to Brazzaville, but perhaps not enough to fill up each separately. This way they get two markets with just one aircraft.

It would be a much larger waste of fuel to fly an A332 from Paris to each separately, half-full.


100% correct...this is a very good commercially oriented move.

Also note that BA does the same with LHR-BAH-DMM with BAH-DMM being simiar flying time as FIH-BZV.


It’s not quite the same as BA will not operate the route as a triangle route when it starts. It will operate LHR-BAH-DMM and terminate before returning the way it came.
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
steex
Posts: 1428
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:18 pm

xjetflyer2001 wrote:
My thought was why fly to both when you can just fly to one, second the el paso/juarez connection is being made as an example, it takes sometimes many hours for people to cross the border between juarez and el paso as well, thirdly, as I have never been to Kinshasa or Brazzaville, I have been unaware of the difficulties of making the trip between the two.


For what it's worth, a significant difference is that neither El Paso nor Juarez is served by any international flights from a third country - in fact, both airports are strictly domestic service when it comes to scheduled commercial flights. CJS has a reasonable amount of service within Mexico but none to the USA and vice versa for ELP.

If someone wanted to fly from Juarez to Chicago, for example, they would already need to have credentials to enter the USA and would see the time/cost of ground travel between Juarez and El Paso somewhat offset by a reduction in airfare for a domestic flight rather than international. This is also why you see so many flights to Florida and Vegas from smaller US cities near the Canadian border, but much fewer from similar sized Canadian cities near the border to the same US destinations.

Repeating what you acknowledge above, Kinshasa and Brazzaville are not nearly as well connected by ground transport options. If passengers were forced to all fly to FIH (for example) and use ground transport to reach Brazzaville, many travelers would require multiple visas. As previously alluded to, the Congo River ferry crossing is also one which many people don't feel comfortable negotiating on their own and end up paying a "fixer" in addition to fees and bribes to streamline the process.

If an airline like AF is primarily trying to cater to a western audience or premium Francophone travelers from Republic of Congo and Democratic Republic of Congo, they may very well find there to be a yield premium to having greater frequency service to both cities with a triangle route rather than the reduced widebody schedule that either one would support if separated.
 
berari
Posts: 786
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:21 pm

xjetflyer2001 wrote:
I saw a small mention of this on an old thread that is now locked, so apparently this routing has been done before, but on airline routes it was just posted that in 2020 Air France will start a triangle route of Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris, I just can’t hardly believe it’s true, is Air France really going to fly an A332 between Kinshasa and Brazzaville? How long of a flight is that? Seems like a waste of fuel to me.


Ethiopian Airlines has for years had a triangle route with Kinshasa and Brazzaville work successfully, with its largest aircraft plying the ADD-FIH-BZV-ADD route daily. Today it has terminator service to FIH, and BZV is triangled with PNR.
 
philabos
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:24 pm

Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:25 pm

FlyRow wrote:

No! All are part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, however not all are the Netherlands.
It's also not classed as a domestic but as a intercontinental route.

Aruba and Curacao and St Maarten are both independent countries within the Kingdom of the Netherlands
Bonaire, St. Eustatius and saba are special municipalities of the Netherlands proper, although they maintain the status of an overseas territory of the European Union.


The mental gymnastics of that are truly impressive.

Reminds me of when I was in Copenhagen, I asked about the relationship with Greenland.
I was told they are an independent country, in a personal union with the Queen of Denmark.

Served By Air Greenland, direct from CPH.
 
Thibault973
Posts: 234
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:11 am

Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 10:38 pm

jbs2886 wrote:

Actually, AF does a lot of triangle routes in Africa currently (so does KLM).


One thing I don't really understand is why this changes literally all the time, I mean at least for AF. For example, right now, some of their services to Lomé are via Niamey, when they were via Accra until few months ago. Accra is now operated as a triangular route with Ouagadougou, which itself was a stop on one of their daily flights to Abidjan, which now stops in Bamako instead. Hard to keep up.
 
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ro1960
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:06 pm

A friend FA at AF told me they never stay in Kinshasa for safety reasons. They unload and fly across the river to Brazzaville.
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Prost
Posts: 2454
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:23 pm

Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:07 pm

I wonder if two A321 NEO LR would be better? Although, if the security for crews in FIH is wanting, maybe the triangle route is best.
 
xjetflyer2001
Topic Author
Posts: 254
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:14 pm

ro1960 wrote:
A friend FA at AF told me they never stay in Kinshasa for safety reasons. They unload and fly across the river to Brazzaville.


So they are making the flight to Brazzaville already from Kinshasa and then flying back to Kinshasa for the return to Paris?

That alone would make sense to me as to why they will switch it to the triangle route talked about.

When I started this thread I didn’t realize they already flew to both Brazzaville and Kinshasa, I thought they only flew to Kinshasa and then just decided to add Brazzaville before flying back to Paris, now this is making more sense as they already flew two flights from Paris, it would make sense to consolidate it and the fact that apparently transport between the two cities is more problematic than I had realized
 
AF773
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:25 pm

Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:25 am

Before discontinuing the route a few years ago KL flew their A332 to ADD via KRT. At first it was a triangular route AMS-KRT-ADD-AMS. Then it became AMS-KRT-ADD and back the same way it came.
I must say as a passenger, the triangular route felt easier. The stop in KRT at Midnight on the return to Europe made the redeye less prone to sleeping. Very few people ever got on or off in Sudan.
When the route's ending was announced, I remember talking with the FO of what would be my last KL flight into Ethiopia. He said the discontinuation was due to the poor economics of having to stop in both directions which was imposed on KLM by the Ethiopians.
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xjetflyer2001
Topic Author
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:20 pm

Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:45 am

AF773 wrote:
Before discontinuing the route a few years ago KL flew their A332 to ADD via KRT. At first it was a triangular route AMS-KRT-ADD-AMS. Then it became AMS-KRT-ADD and back the same way it came.
I must say as a passenger, the triangular route felt easier. The stop in KRT at Midnight on the return to Europe made the redeye less prone to sleeping. Very few people ever got on or off in Sudan.
When the route's ending was announced, I remember talking with the FO of what would be my last KL flight into Ethiopia. He said the discontinuation was due to the poor economics of having to stop in both directions which was imposed on KLM by the Ethiopians.


Interesting, especially since KLM apparently still has a lot of these triangular routes, thanks for the information

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