AF773
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:51 am

xjetflyer2001 wrote:

Interesting, especially since KLM apparently still has a lot of these triangular routes, thanks for the information


I may be completely wrong, its been awhile, but I believe, at least at the time, that both LH and KL, and British Midland (who used to fly an a321 to ADD via CAI) could not offer non stop flights from Ethiopia. I guess it was an effort to protect ET... Was it just a european thing? Because EK and TK flew nonstop from ADD
Next flights: SAN-LAX-CDG; ORY-TLN-ORY; CDG-SEA-LAX-SAN; SAN-LAX-CDG-SLC-SNA; TIJ-MEX-PVR-MEX-TIJ
 
flyingdoc787
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:32 am

Just wanted to confirm what a previous poster said - in the late 80’s, early 90’s, Swissair flew between Brazzaville and Kinshasa, too. It was a triangular routing from/to Zurich. Probably a DC-10 or MD-11.
 
xjetflyer2001
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:55 am

flyingdoc787 wrote:
Just wanted to confirm what a previous poster said - in the late 80’s, early 90’s, Swissair flew between Brazzaville and Kinshasa, too. It was a triangular routing from/to Zurich. Probably a DC-10 or MD-11.


No matter the reasoning I still find it pretty wild, it would be pretty cool to watch it take off and then land just on the other side of the river
 
jellyhead
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:52 am

For those disenchanted by the triangular routing with short hop between BZV and FIH, let me assure you this is nothing new. I remember about a decade ago I was flying with a belgian captain - an ex-SABENA guy - we were doing triangular with the relatively short hop between DAM and AMM and he was telling me how back then they were doing BZV to FIH with 747-300 with SN. As per his recollection they didn't even bother with retracting the gear. I remember he pointed out that crew safety was big issue back then and there was no way any western(or decent) airline would leave their crew for layover in Kinshasa(so they always overnighted in Brazza). Which got confirmed years later when I met a bunch of AF flight attendants in a hotel in Bangui(CAR) who just arrived from CDG - FIH - BGF sector. When I asked them if they are happy with the layover in this $%!#hole, they replied that its obviously much safer than Kinshasa as they would be never allowed to layover there. Things may have changed by now though(but probably not much), luckily haven't been in that part of the world for many years now.
 
cedarjet
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:38 am

This routing is largely driven by crew rest. Air France could probably fill an A330 just with Kinshasa traffic but there’s no way you could nightstop the crew there. Too dangerous, period.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
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PHBVF
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:25 am

FlyRow wrote:
KLM:
Liberia and San José in Costa rica in a triangle pattern. 250km apart.

KLM and TUI netherlands operate triangle flight between Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao in alternating patterns. No local rights.
Islands are 70km and 100km apart.


True! However there are different reasons for some triangle routings to be flown.
The thread starters' example, or AUA-BON are for economic reasons whereas SJO-LIR (or BOG-CTG and UIO-GYE) are mainly for aircraft performance reasons (i.e. no full payload possible, on a direct routing).
Licensed 777/787 driver
 
mchei
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:32 am

Hi
I think it was back in the late Nineties that Condor flew from Frankfurt to Dakar and from Dakar to Banjul once weekly using a 757. Dakar to Banjul was a rough 30 minute ride, if I recall that correctly. Condor would also sometimes skip the leg from Dakar to Banjul for whatever reason.
F70-F100-E145-E170-E190-319-320-321-735–736-737-738-752-763–742-744-333-343-ATR72-Metroliner-Saab2000-Lockheed Electra-C172-C182-C182RG-MD11
 
SeaDoo
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:48 am

Not a triangle route, but Alaska has some milk run routes. One of the routes I believe goes from Seattle to Ketchikan to Wrangell, and then flies 31 miles to Petersburg.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:29 am

xjetflyer2001 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
These triangle routes are very common in Africa. Lots of airlines do it and the main reason is that each of the markets by themselves is not large enough to fill a plane from Europe so airlines combine 2 destinations for the same plane. SN and AF have been doing it for decades. EK also does triangle routes in Africa (or used to). The fact that Kinshasa and Brazzaville are so close to eachother is interesting but a mere coincidence because this flight is unlikely to carry any passengers between Kinshasa and Brazzaville. These types of routes are for people who want to travel from France to either Kinshasa or Brazzaville, or from either Kinshasa or Brazzaville to France.


Thank You for that explanation, that makes sense to hit the 2 destinations at once, to get more pax, I guess the closeness of the two cities just made it funny to me.


There were -and still are- a number of triangular "funny" routes, sometimes to consolidate smaller markets, but also for security reasons. Some years ago AZ was flying triangulars with Lagos and Accra, with crews overnighting in Accra due to safety concerns in Lagos.
Charter airlines will also from time to time fly funny triangulars, particularly in the Caribbean.
Another one that comes to mind is TK IST-CMB-MLE-IST.
 
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Coal
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:37 am

Not as short for sure, but KL seems to like doing 5th freedoms. They also do KUL-CGK and SIN-DPS. SIN-DPS has great deals, usually S$250 for Y and S$500 for J RT if you book in advance.
Nxt Flts: KE SIN-ICN-ATL | DL ATL-FLL | AA MIA-ATL | KE ATL-ICN-SIN
 
Chasensfo
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:44 am

There were a ton of these short routes in the past in Africa, flown mostly by Air France, SABENA, KLM, and Swissair plus a few others.

CKY-BJL, LFW-ABJ, EBB-NBO, ect were slightly longer, but still short flights flown by SABENA for a while with A330s. In 1998, I can tell you just about every European service to a West\East\South African destination(other than South Africa) probably had a triangle route. Lufthansa liked to route their A300s serving North Africa via the Middle East back then as well.
 
jumpjets
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:43 am

behramjee wrote:
Longhornmaniac wrote:
100% correct...this is a very good commercially oriented move.

Also note that BA does the same with LHR-BAH-DMM with BAH-DMM being simiar flying time as FIH-BZV.


It is interesting that this new BA add on runs contrary to recent practices of separating out the tag on destination to have its own direct service.

In recent times BA has offered a land based transfer across the BAH causeway to DMM, so I am intrigued to know why they decided that now a short hop by plane was better for them and their passengers.
 
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OA940
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:30 am

praunda wrote:
xjetflyer2001 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
While not 60 miles, these triangle routes in Africa are very common for European airlines, considering, like poeple said, one city may not be enough to justify the use of a widebody which could make more money elsewhere, but combine two of those cities and you get what you were seeking. Also since someone above mentioned TUI they apparently fly AMS-SFB-MIA-AMS, which is a fun little route, but I'm fairly certain they don't sell tickets on the SFB-MIA segment


Wow, that is a pretty interesting routing.


As mentioned above, these are indeed still extremely common throughout Africa, and while 5th-freedom rights aren't always in place between the shorter city pairs, often times it is possible to buy a seat on just the intra-African leg; this is often popular despite the short distance because overland travel (traffic, road conditions, border crossings, and safety) make a journey by car unappealing, difficult, or even dangerous.

Personally in just the past few years I have flown Dakar DSS-Banjul BJL on SN, less than 200 miles ATCF but possibly a 10-hour drive, and Accra-Lomé, which is something like 125mi ATCF but can take 5-6 hours overland (I've also driven that several times). Kinshasa and Brazzaville are, I believe, the two closest capital cities in the world, so I think it is an especially unique situation.


Another way to understand why these short flights happen would be to look over at Brazil, namely the Sao Paulo to Rio route. It's one of the busiest in the world, so much so that Azul announced 17x daily roundtrips at once a couple of months ago. While not in a different country, and only a 30 minute flight, the road and rail infastructure in Brazil is, simply put, garbage, making flying the best option by far. To a smaller degree you could find similar cases around the world.
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AF022
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:02 pm

I believe both HF and KP have flights that stop in BZV enroute to FIH, or FIH enroute to BZV.
 
vinniewinnie
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:41 pm

cedarjet wrote:
This routing is largely driven by crew rest. Air France could probably fill an A330 just with Kinshasa traffic but there’s no way you could nightstop the crew there. Too dangerous, period.


Kinshasa is not dangerous by any means if you follow the same rules as you would in any other developing country. The problem is that AF rules do not change when things change in a county. How do you explain that SN crew remains in Kinshasa without any major problem? The real problem with FIH is the time it takes to go to the airport and how unreliable the journey is.

What AF does is fly its crew to Brazzaville and back. As such, up to now, a plane would fly to Kinshasa to bring a new crew. The same plane would take the crew from the arriving plane and bring this crew to Brazzaville. As such, On the route, a crew would fly CDG - FIH on day 1, and BZV CDG on day 2. Another crew would do the reverse journey.

Also, other than Congolese planes, no plane overnights in FIH. This is probably due to insurance.
 
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eastafspot
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:50 pm

AF773 wrote:
xjetflyer2001 wrote:

Interesting, especially since KLM apparently still has a lot of these triangular routes, thanks for the information


British Midland (who used to fly an a321 to ADD via CAI)

The flight was via AMM, not CAI
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konkret
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:37 am

jumpjets wrote:
behramjee wrote:
Longhornmaniac wrote:
100% correct...this is a very good commercially oriented move.

Also note that BA does the same with LHR-BAH-DMM with BAH-DMM being simiar flying time as FIH-BZV.


It is interesting that this new BA add on runs contrary to recent practices of separating out the tag on destination to have its own direct service.


One of the factors to be considered is that if BA “separated out” BAH and DMM it would take up two LHR slots instead of one.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:48 am

Turkish Airlines also does a lot of triangular routes. One such one is IST-BOG-PTY-IST. I doubt there are local traffic rights, but the return can’t be made from BOG because it’s so high.
 
DWC
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:52 am

airbazar wrote:
EK also does triangle routes in Africa (or used to)

Triangular routes are an elastic conception, any stop-over with pax to both end destinations qualify, nevermind if in addition they have pick-up rights.
EK had & still has many such extended triangular routes, usually priced cheaper than the direct flight when applicable.
DXB-HKG-BKK-HKG-DXB ( or maybe it is two frames doing BKK-HKG & HKG-BKK in 2 different loops )
DXB-MXP-JFK-MXP-DXB

then the former Aussie-Kiwi combo :
DXB-SYD-AKL-SYD-DXB
DXB-MEL-AKL-MEL-DXB
DXB-BNE-AKL-BNE-DXB
there was a time where one could see all 4 EK A380 at AKL's apron at the same time ( with the direct DXB-AKL flight )

Today, a judge just overturned the new EK DXB-BCN-MEX-BCN-DXB.

Swissair also had a ZRH-GVA-JFK-GVA-ZRH

Add the few such extended triangular routes operated by SQ to the US via Europe and CX to JKF via YYC (will be soon discontinued)
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:33 am

DWC wrote:
airbazar wrote:
EK also does triangle routes in Africa (or used to)

Triangular routes are an elastic conception, any stop-over with pax to both end destinations qualify, nevermind if in addition they have pick-up rights.
EK had & still has many such extended triangular routes, usually priced cheaper than the direct flight when applicable.
DXB-HKG-BKK-HKG-DXB ( or maybe it is two frames doing BKK-HKG & HKG-BKK in 2 different loops )
DXB-MXP-JFK-MXP-DXB

then the former Aussie-Kiwi combo :
DXB-SYD-AKL-SYD-DXB
DXB-MEL-AKL-MEL-DXB
DXB-BNE-AKL-BNE-DXB
there was a time where one could see all 4 EK A380 at AKL's apron at the same time ( with the direct DXB-AKL flight )

Today, a judge just overturned the new EK DXB-BCN-MEX-BCN-DXB.

Swissair also had a ZRH-GVA-JFK-GVA-ZRH

Add the few such extended triangular routes operated by SQ to the US via Europe and CX to JKF via YYC (will be soon discontinued)

Not a single one of your examples is a triangular route.

And Cathay stops in YVR, not YYC, on their way to and from JFK.
 
Chrisba320
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:15 am

This route makes sense to me. Air France can, however, do some strange things at times. I worked for them in Windhoek in the early 90’s and the Windhoek - Paris flight went Windhoek - Gaborone - Johannesburg - Paris. On a Boeing 747-200 Combi at the time. That was a difficult flight to sell, to put it mildly. A mid-day departure from Windhoek’s altitude with temperatures close to 40 degrees centigrade in summer, let’s just say it was interesting to watch the battle to get airborne. Namibia exports a lot of fish and Air France was not a popular option for the cargo, more often than not we had to leave cargo behind due to take-off limitations. Was an interesting time, though! The big twins that replaced the 747’s are really amazing, wish we had an A330, A350 or even a 787 at the time.
 
DWC
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:45 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
Not a single one of your examples is a triangular route.
And Cathay stops in YVR, not YYC, on their way to and from JFK.

Yes, it is YVR ;)
Economically, they are triangular, as carrier flies paying pax from origin to all those destinations ( as opposed to fuel stops only )
I fully understand av-geeks do not see it that way & restrict it to destinations not served otherwise.
Point is these flights wouldn't happen if they didn't make money too. This was only to show how "elastic" & developped this strategy is, and still actively sought after by some carriers.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:37 am

DWC wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Not a single one of your examples is a triangular route.
And Cathay stops in YVR, not YYC, on their way to and from JFK.

Yes, it is YVR ;)
Economically, they are triangular, as carrier flies paying pax from origin to all those destinations ( as opposed to fuel stops only )
I fully understand av-geeks do not see it that way & restrict it to destinations not served otherwise.
Point is these flights wouldn't happen if they didn't make money too. This was only to show how "elastic" & developped this strategy is, and still actively sought after by some carriers.

Ehm...yeah...sure...whatever.
 
redadeco
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:03 am

If FIH was safe for crews to stay at I bet AF and other carriers would just ditch BZV which is not the source of premium traffic from Congo.

PNR is where the money is and AF flies there nonstop for a reason.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:48 am

Chrisba320 wrote:
This route makes sense to me. Air France can, however, do some strange things at times. I worked for them in Windhoek in the early 90’s and the Windhoek - Paris flight went Windhoek - Gaborone - Johannesburg - Paris. On a Boeing 747-200 Combi at the time. That was a difficult flight to sell, to put it mildly. A mid-day departure from Windhoek’s altitude with temperatures close to 40 degrees centigrade in summer, let’s just say it was interesting to watch the battle to get airborne. Namibia exports a lot of fish and Air France was not a popular option for the cargo, more often than not we had to leave cargo behind due to take-off limitations. Was an interesting time, though! The big twins that replaced the 747’s are really amazing, wish we had an A330, A350 or even a 787 at the time.


Sounds like a 757 would have been ideal, given the cargo.
 
AMS18C36C
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:08 am

philabos wrote:
FlyRow wrote:

No! All are part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, however not all are the Netherlands.
It's also not classed as a domestic but as a intercontinental route.

Aruba and Curacao and St Maarten are both independent countries within the Kingdom of the Netherlands
Bonaire, St. Eustatius and saba are special municipalities of the Netherlands proper, although they maintain the status of an overseas territory of the European Union.


The mental gymnastics of that are truly impressive.

Reminds me of when I was in Copenhagen, I asked about the relationship with Greenland.
I was told they are an independent country, in a personal union with the Queen of Denmark.

Served By Air Greenland, direct from CPH.


This will explain it for you ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE_IUPInEuc
 
vinniewinnie
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:21 am

redadeco wrote:
If FIH was safe for crews to stay at I bet AF and other carriers would just ditch BZV which is not the source of premium traffic from Congo.

PNR is where the money is and AF flies there nonstop for a reason.


See my reply above FIH is not unsafe. SN crew and I would think ET crew overnights there.

Bzv has lots of of government traffic both at national level and Internations level. Oil contracts don’t get signed in pointe-noire for example, and the world Health Organisation has its headquarters in Brazzaville.
 
Mi26
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:05 am

For those not familiar with the area, the distance between FIH and BZV is 43 Kilometres according to Google.
 
Cunard
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:34 am

YYZLGA wrote:
Chrisba320 wrote:
This route makes sense to me. Air France can, however, do some strange things at times. I worked for them in Windhoek in the early 90’s and the Windhoek - Paris flight went Windhoek - Gaborone - Johannesburg - Paris. On a Boeing 747-200 Combi at the time. That was a difficult flight to sell, to put it mildly. A mid-day departure from Windhoek’s altitude with temperatures close to 40 degrees centigrade in summer, let’s just say it was interesting to watch the battle to get airborne. Namibia exports a lot of fish and Air France was not a popular option for the cargo, more often than not we had to leave cargo behind due to take-off limitations. Was an interesting time, though! The big twins that replaced the 747’s are really amazing, wish we had an A330, A350 or even a 787 at the time.


Sounds like a 757 would have been ideal, given the cargo.


Considering that Air France have never had the B757 in their fleet your suggestion isn't applicable plus the aircraft wouldn't be ideal for a Windhoek-Gaborone-Johannesburg-Paris routing!

The reference to the A330, A350 and B787 is in regards to the current long range twins within the Air France fleet.

FYI The B747 is very capable of carrying fish as are many other aircraft, it's not just the B757 that's ideal for that type of cargo. Many on a.net refer to the fish carrying capabilities on the B757 purely on the aircraft's association with Icelandair with the country of Iceland obviously being a large fish exporter.
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ussherd
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:23 am

While triangle routes aren’t too unusual, the fact that part of this flight is between two airports that are 16 miles apart as the crow flies is very unusual. There isn’t a bridge over the river Congo between the two cities and you have to clear immigration/customs between the two countries (plus most nationalities need a visa to enter the DRC) so probably its not practical to use Kinshasa as a gateway to Brazzaville.
Cada loco con su tema...
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:52 pm

Cunard wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
Chrisba320 wrote:
This route makes sense to me. Air France can, however, do some strange things at times. I worked for them in Windhoek in the early 90’s and the Windhoek - Paris flight went Windhoek - Gaborone - Johannesburg - Paris. On a Boeing 747-200 Combi at the time. That was a difficult flight to sell, to put it mildly. A mid-day departure from Windhoek’s altitude with temperatures close to 40 degrees centigrade in summer, let’s just say it was interesting to watch the battle to get airborne. Namibia exports a lot of fish and Air France was not a popular option for the cargo, more often than not we had to leave cargo behind due to take-off limitations. Was an interesting time, though! The big twins that replaced the 747’s are really amazing, wish we had an A330, A350 or even a 787 at the time.


Sounds like a 757 would have been ideal, given the cargo.


Considering that Air France have never had the B757 in their fleet your suggestion isn't applicable plus the aircraft wouldn't be ideal for a Windhoek-Gaborone-Johannesburg-Paris routing!

The reference to the A330, A350 and B787 is in regards to the current long range twins within the Air France fleet.

FYI The B747 is very capable of carrying fish as are many other aircraft, it's not just the B757 that's ideal for that type of cargo. Many on a.net refer to the fish carrying capabilities on the B757 purely on the aircraft's association with Icelandair with the country of Iceland obviously being a large fish exporter.


Humour.
 
Cunard
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:46 am

YYZLGA wrote:
Cunard wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:

Sounds like a 757 would have been ideal, given the cargo.


Considering that Air France have never had the B757 in their fleet your suggestion isn't applicable plus the aircraft wouldn't be ideal for a Windhoek-Gaborone-Johannesburg-Paris routing!

The reference to the A330, A350 and B787 is in regards to the current long range twins within the Air France fleet.

FYI The B747 is very capable of carrying fish as are many other aircraft, it's not just the B757 that's ideal for that type of cargo. Many on a.net refer to the fish carrying capabilities on the B757 purely on the aircraft's association with Icelandair with the country of Iceland obviously being a large fish exporter.


Humour.


I don't think for one minute that the comment was made in Humour, in my opinion it was a serious comment and it was intended, I don't know where your getting the humour bit from!
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leftcoast8
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:01 am

vinniewinnie wrote:
Kinshasa is not dangerous by any means if you follow the same rules as you would in any other developing country.


I've got two points to make regarding this statement:

1. Not related to violence in Kinshasa, but I do know that Congo-Brazzaville and DR Congo have been plagued by conflict and strife, stretching back to the days of the savage King Leopold II of Belgium. Does this conflict result in reduced business or even VFR demand to DR Congo from Europe/the Americas? How about to Brazzaville?

2. How does the safety in Kinshasa compare to, suppose, Abuja, Lagos, Harare or Karachi (all cities which currently see or previously saw direct service from European/Asian carriers, and also have a reputation for being unsafe)? Especially in terms of safety for crew layovers. Our government's official travel advisory (Canadian) states that you should avoid areas of Kinshasa that aren't in Gombe, the CBD/government area which is home to most of the embassies, and avoid travel after dark.
 
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LTU932
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:07 am

FlyRow wrote:
KLM:
Liberia and San José in Costa rica in a triangle pattern. 250km apart.
That flight also has the advantage, that the aircraft doesn't have to make potential tech stops because of restrictions on departure from SJO (especially when departing RW 07). Even the 787 appears to struggle with that departure somewhat.

Nonetheless I still hope KL will go yearround on their Costa Rica service. I've enjoyed my last flight with them via PTY three years ago.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
blandy62
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:18 am

primary for security reason in Kinshasa. crew continue and stay in Brazzaville

Also is there enough demand in Kinshasa and Brazaville to justify a direct flight for each?
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:48 am

Cunard wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
Cunard wrote:

Considering that Air France have never had the B757 in their fleet your suggestion isn't applicable plus the aircraft wouldn't be ideal for a Windhoek-Gaborone-Johannesburg-Paris routing!

The reference to the A330, A350 and B787 is in regards to the current long range twins within the Air France fleet.

FYI The B747 is very capable of carrying fish as are many other aircraft, it's not just the B757 that's ideal for that type of cargo. Many on a.net refer to the fish carrying capabilities on the B757 purely on the aircraft's association with Icelandair with the country of Iceland obviously being a large fish exporter.


Humour.


I don't think for one minute that the comment was made in Humour, in my opinion it was a serious comment and it was intended, I don't know where your getting the humour bit from!

Then you mustn't have followed the Icelandair threads on here very closely for the last few decades...
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:05 am

blandy62 wrote:
primary for security reason in Kinshasa. crew continue and stay in Brazzaville

Also is there enough demand in Kinshasa and Brazaville to justify a direct flight for each?

Sorry, don't mean to be rude, but...have you read any of the other posts in this thread?

It has been clarified that several crews stay in Kinshasa, without problems.

And your second comment has been discussed extensively.
 
jmc1975
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:11 am

Would aircraft fuel cheaper and/or more reliable in BZV than FIH?
.......
 
blandy62
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:22 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
blandy62 wrote:
primary for security reason in Kinshasa. crew continue and stay in Brazzaville

Also is there enough demand in Kinshasa and Brazaville to justify a direct flight for each?

Sorry, don't mean to be rude, but...have you read any of the other posts in this thread?

It has been clarified that several crews stay in Kinshasa, without problems.

And your second comment has been discussed extensively.


Each company decides on what is safe or not for their staff. If AF estimates it is not, that’s their right
 
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ro1960
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:38 am

According to FR24 several airlines operate triangle routes to BZV and FIH:

Royal AIr Maroc:
AT269 CMN-BZV-FIH-CMN 738

Air Côte d'Ivoire does a full roundtrip. Flight time between BZV and FIH is 12 minutes:
HF836 ABJ-FIH-BZV A320 https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/tu-tsv#22484deb
HF837 BZV-FIH-ABJ A320 https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/hf837#2255675e
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vfw614
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:41 am

During low season, you can also find quite a few triangular flights between European cities and destinations on the Canary Islands. It allows to maintain service to all islands during times of weaker demand (the most common combo appears to be to combine ACE and FUE).
 
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jetpixx
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:32 am

It doesn't happen anymore, but I've been on a DL 763 flying from MIA-FLL. You literally climb out, and are immediately on final after a couple of quick turns.
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CURQ400
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:42 am

Cunard wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
Cunard wrote:

Considering that Air France have never had the B757 in their fleet your suggestion isn't applicable plus the aircraft wouldn't be ideal for a Windhoek-Gaborone-Johannesburg-Paris routing!

The reference to the A330, A350 and B787 is in regards to the current long range twins within the Air France fleet.

FYI The B747 is very capable of carrying fish as are many other aircraft, it's not just the B757 that's ideal for that type of cargo. Many on a.net refer to the fish carrying capabilities on the B757 purely on the aircraft's association with Icelandair with the country of Iceland obviously being a large fish exporter.


Humour.


I don't think for one minute that the comment was made in Humour, in my opinion it was a serious comment and it was intended, I don't know where your getting the humour bit from!



It was clearly a joke. (And one that you half-explained in your last paragraph, too.)

And YYZLGA is the one who made the comment, surely they would know if he meant it be humorous?
 
vinniewinnie
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:25 pm

leftcoast8 wrote:
vinniewinnie wrote:
Kinshasa is not dangerous by any means if you follow the same rules as you would in any other developing country.


I've got two points to make regarding this statement:

1. Not related to violence in Kinshasa, but I do know that Congo-Brazzaville and DR Congo have been plagued by conflict and strife, stretching back to the days of the savage King Leopold II of Belgium. Does this conflict result in reduced business or even VFR demand to DR Congo from Europe/the Americas? How about to Brazzaville?

2. How does the safety in Kinshasa compare to, suppose, Abuja, Lagos, Harare or Karachi (all cities which currently see or previously saw direct service from European/Asian carriers, and also have a reputation for being unsafe)? Especially in terms of safety for crew layovers. Our government's official travel advisory (Canadian) states that you should avoid areas of Kinshasa that aren't in Gombe, the CBD/government area which is home to most of the embassies, and avoid travel after dark.


So any country that once upon a time had conflict is will be forever unsafe? That is a weird line of thought. According to this statement, 3/4 of counties in the world are no-go areas.

There is nothing that inherently unsafe about both counties. How do I know? Been, stayed and lived in both counties in the past few years... As for government advise, always take it with a pinch of salt. Their advise is usually is on the very cautious side.

So why this new triangular flight: most likely economics. There is just not enough demand to warrant a direct flight and providing more service each day with a stopover probably makes more sense than continuing as is. If you look at the economy of both counties, you will notice that they highly rely on what’s under the ground or under the sea. Not very sustainable nor an enabler for middle class travel.

As for why AF doesn’t have crew layovers in Kinshasa. Well clearly AF is not the most flexible airline both in terms of crewing and in terms adaptability. As such I’m pretty sure someone representing crews at AF is enforcing overnighting rules which are no longer match the latest circumstances in DRC .
 
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ro1960
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:19 pm

vinniewinnie wrote:

As for government advise, always take it with a pinch of salt. Their advise is usually is on the very cautious side.


Nor sure how you can take this with a grain of salt:
https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/conseils-aux-voyageurs/conseils-par-pays-destination/republique-democratique-du-congo/#securite
You may like my airport photos:
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330lover
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:44 pm

Side note: this is not al all AF's only triangular into Africa.
There is also
CDG - Malabo (SSG) - Pointe Noire (PNR) - CDG
CDG - N'Djamena (NDJ) - Abuja (ABV) - CDG
and probably more, just these 2 come to mind right away…

So triangulars are not that rare and make perfect sense to serve 2 destinations with less demand.
Better triangular than no service at all, no?
Britten Norman Islander VP-FBR on Falkland Islands. THAT'S FLYING!
 
FromCDGtoSYD
Posts: 327
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:03 pm

330lover wrote:
Side note: this is not al all AF's only triangular into Africa.
There is also
CDG - Malabo (SSG) - Pointe Noire (PNR) - CDG
CDG - N'Djamena (NDJ) - Abuja (ABV) - CDG
and probably more, just these 2 come to mind right away…

So triangulars are not that rare and make perfect sense to serve 2 destinations with less demand.
Better triangular than no service at all, no?


CDG - Bamako (BKO) - Abidjan (ABJ) - CDG
CDG - Niamey (NIM) - Lome (LFW) - CDG
CDG - Conakry (CKY) - Nouakchott (NKC) - CDG
CDG - Freetown (FNA) - Conakry (CKY) - CDG
(The last two are pretty cool because it effectively means direct flights for CKY.)

And a few more. Its no wonder Ben Smith said AF’s african network is a mess... but if even triangular flights aren’t daily, then there must be a reason.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:21 pm

Cunard wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
Cunard wrote:

Considering that Air France have never had the B757 in their fleet your suggestion isn't applicable plus the aircraft wouldn't be ideal for a Windhoek-Gaborone-Johannesburg-Paris routing!

The reference to the A330, A350 and B787 is in regards to the current long range twins within the Air France fleet.

FYI The B747 is very capable of carrying fish as are many other aircraft, it's not just the B757 that's ideal for that type of cargo. Many on a.net refer to the fish carrying capabilities on the B757 purely on the aircraft's association with Icelandair with the country of Iceland obviously being a large fish exporter.


Humour.


I don't think for one minute that the comment was made in Humour, in my opinion it was a serious comment and it was intended, I don't know where your getting the humour bit from!


I'm getting the humour bit from the fact that I made the original comment in jest!
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:24 pm

vinniewinnie wrote:
1. Not related to violence in Kinshasa, but I do know that Congo-Brazzaville and DR Congo have been plagued by conflict and strife, stretching back to the days of the savage King Leopold II of Belgium. Does this conflict result in reduced business or even VFR demand to DR Congo from Europe/the Americas? How about to Brazzaville?


Certainly DRC has had terrible problems for many years, going back to Leopold's legacy. Congo-Brazzaville has certainly had issues, but far fewer than its neighbour. It was never a Belgian colony (nor a private colony of Leopold); it was always a French colony.

In terms of VFR traffic, I think the problems cut both ways. On the one hand, obviously the conflict (especially in DRC) limits traffic, but it also means that many people have emigrated from the country, so there are substantial Congolese communities in other countries who might want to visit their families. It's also worth noting that a lot of the traffic on these routes is aid workers, who are often willing to pay pretty high fares.
 
vinniewinnie
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Re: Air France Paris to Kinshasa to Brazzaville to Paris

Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:21 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
[

Certainly DRC has had terrible problems for many years, going back to Leopold's legacy. Congo-Brazzaville has certainly had issues, but far fewer than its neighbour. It was never a Belgian colony (nor a private colony of Leopold); it was always a French colony.


You are stating the obvious.

YYZLGA wrote:
In terms of VFR traffic, I think the problems cut both ways. On the one hand, obviously the conflict (especially in DRC) limits traffic, but it also means that many people have emigrated from the country, so there are substantial Congolese communities in other countries who might want to visit their families. It's also worth noting that a lot of the traffic on these routes is aid workers, who are often willing to pay pretty high fares.


Ok clearly you seem to ignore a few things. Let me give you a few facts.

Kinshasa is a very large city, with a population estimated at 12 million people. Brazzaville's population is estimated to be around 2 million. Technically therefore, there should be more demand from FIH than from BZV.

However, few things hinder Kinshasa's traffic:

- DRC individuals do not have the right to have dual citizenship. This limits travel from congolese population abroad
- The difficulty of obtaining a visa for DRC generally speaking
- The economy is weak in DRC. Other than mining, banking and telecoms, there is not much happening. Mining centers are also not located in near Kinshasa. This limits business travel
- The poverty of people. (Gombe and Limete may be relatively well of, the rest isn't)

The rest of your statement is plainly misinformed: having flown several times both to FIH and BZV, and having lived in Kinshasa, I can tell you that aid-workers do not represent a sizeable proportion of people flying AF to FIH. What you see is VFR, and local and international business people. Also, DRC receives relatively little Aid in proportion to its population. Most aid flows to the East of the country (Kivus), not to Kinshasa. The kind of aid worker you imagine would be flying to Kivu via Kigali or straight to Goma.

Overall FIH sustains itself through the sheer number of people that live there. This creates a market, although, for a city of 12 million people, it's ridiculously small. SN seems to be doing better in FIH. More business ties. But even it performs triangular routes on soe days (via Luanda)

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