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Boston757
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AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:23 pm

Any information on why American airlines will be using the 3 class 321T in mid December for a few weeks LAX-MIA-LAX? I believe there are 2 that will be put on this route
Last edited by atcsundevil on Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title edited for clarity
 
afcjets
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Re: AA 321T

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:25 pm

American has offered three class Flagship service on LAX-MIA on select flights since the early to mid 1990s.
 
Boston757
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:34 pm

Yes, we know that. However, not on the 321t and thus the question. Its only for 2 weeks or so.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:37 pm

As was posted when schedule changes were made, both JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO are drawn down in late December as business travel vanishes.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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chepos
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:45 pm

I know it has been discussed extensively in other threads Slack int the fleet during the holiday period seems to be the consensus/.


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Fly the Flag!!!!
 
jfk777
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:36 pm

Miami floods with people over the New Years holiday. There is demand to Miami's warm weather and little demand to New York.
 
afcjets
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:37 pm

Boston757 wrote:
Yes, we know that. However, not on the 321t and thus the question. Its only for 2 weeks or so.


I didn't think this was the first time the 321T was put on LAX-MIA. It seems like I remember hearing about it a long time ago, and not just from a recent schedule change, but I could be wrong.
 
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N62NA
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:35 am

And once the two weeks of 321T service is over in January, AA is going all 321(standard) and one 738 on MIA-LAX. No lie flats at all.

Very disappointing.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:14 am

Aren't they only configured with around 100 seats? That's a huge drop in capacity from a standard 321, 738, etc that usually operates that route. I can't imagine there is demand for paid F on that route.
 
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N62NA
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:48 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Aren't they only configured with around 100 seats? That's a huge drop in capacity from a standard 321, 738, etc that usually operates that route. I can't imagine there is demand for paid F on that route.


Yeah, there's not very many seats on the 321T compared to a "regular" 321 or 738.

We've been told time and time again here from some people that MIA-LAX is a very "premium heavy" route. It may well be, but AA has had only one plane (772/77W) with lie-flat seats on the route for years and then, starting in January, NO lie-flat equipped plane on the route. So what does that tell you?
 
N649DL
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:13 am

N62NA wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Aren't they only configured with around 100 seats? That's a huge drop in capacity from a standard 321, 738, etc that usually operates that route. I can't imagine there is demand for paid F on that route.


Yeah, there's not very many seats on the 321T compared to a "regular" 321 or 738.

We've been told time and time again here from some people that MIA-LAX is a very "premium heavy" route. It may well be, but AA has had only one plane (772/77W) with lie-flat seats on the route for years and then, starting in January, NO lie-flat equipped plane on the route. So what does that tell you?


January is a bit far out there for AA scheduling and it's notorious for being a low capacity month for lack of demand after the holiday's perhaps?
 
MAH4546
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:28 am

N62NA wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Aren't they only configured with around 100 seats? That's a huge drop in capacity from a standard 321, 738, etc that usually operates that route. I can't imagine there is demand for paid F on that route.


Yeah, there's not very many seats on the 321T compared to a "regular" 321 or 738.

We've been told time and time again here from some people that MIA-LAX is a very "premium heavy" route. It may well be, but AA has had only one plane (772/77W) with lie-flat seats on the route for years and then, starting in January, NO lie-flat equipped plane on the route. So what does that tell you?


It tells you it’s a monopoly market where AA doesn’t need to respond much to competition. JetBlue is eating it’s lunch all the same, with FLLLAX consistently being one of their top yielding Mint routes.

You are also looking at this in a vacuum absent facts. Unfortunately, as discussed many times, when AA decided to add gates at LAX a few years ago, gates that previously could park a 767 or 757 no longer can, so a 763 does a LAS turn instead of an LAX turn (there are no AA 767s or 757s to LAX). Hopefully AA finds a proper 2-class solution to its transcon problem, which extends past MIA. There are, if I recall, only three gates at Terminal 4 LAX capable of a wide body (or 757, which has a wide wingspan). And they certainly aren’t going to be prioritizing a Miami flight over all the other stuff. A321T has too few seats (when AA does the A321T this winter they are going to 9x daily), 777s are rotated on the route when they can, 757s and 767s don’t fly to LAX and 787s don’t fly to MIA. There isn’t a solution right now. Maybe with the Qantas JV the 77W returns to LAXSYD and AA loops it between Miami and LA. AA has always added a 77W to the market when it could logically schedule it, like right now rotating it to LA for Haneda.

Unfortunately there are many reasons why AA has been on/again off/again lately in this market and it will likely continue unless AA invests in a two-class transcon narrowbody lieflat product.

I don’t understand your constant complaints about it. If you want consistency, JetBlue is 4x a day to FLL with a service and hard product that AA will never be able match.
a.
 
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vhtje
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:36 am

I really enjoy the AA 321T Service. I am no fleet planner, but I always think AA do not have enough of these aircraft - every time I have been on it the flight has been full. The fares are crazily expensive: e.g. looking on aa.com at JFK to SFO return next month for a week, fares in J and F are around £2,700. That's insane, do people actually pay that? I have done it a few times, but always as an add-on to a TATL BA flight, as routing via JFK is is cheaper than the direct LHR to SFO flight if booked late.

Obviously it Is very successful for AA, so it makes me wonder why AA do not expand it further by adding frequency and adding it to other markets. But, like I said, I am no fleet planner or route planner, or yield manager, so I can only assume AA's fleet/route/yield planners know their stuff and have it right.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
Boston757
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:42 am

[list=][/list]
N62NA wrote:
And once the two weeks of 321T service is over in January, AA is going all 321(standard) and one 738 on MIA-LAX. No lie flats at all.

Very disappointing.

Ouch, where can we find that information. Or can you post it. Thanks
 
tphuang
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:20 am

N62NA wrote:
And once the two weeks of 321T service is over in January, AA is going all 321(standard) and one 738 on MIA-LAX. No lie flats at all.

Very disappointing.

it's like AA is looking to lose valued customers in South Florida. Good thing for them B6 has shifted its focus completely to BOS or else FLL-LAX might be up to 5 or 6x and FLL-SFO up to 3x by now.
 
Miamiairport
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:24 am

Like I said on FT I hope I'm seated in the F cabin of a LUS321 now put on this route when some Hollywood A listers or studio executive (often seen on this route) goes looking for a power port for their device. I don't doubt the anger and disappointment by said Hollywood type, I just doubt that my upgrade would clear on this route. Remember of a lot of the big money stays in North Miami Beach, which is not that much further away from FLL versus MIA. No wonder they are flocking to Mint.
 
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N62NA
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:37 pm

Boston757 wrote:
N62NA wrote:
And once the two weeks of 321T service is over in January, AA is going all 321(standard) and one 738 on MIA-LAX. No lie flats at all.

Very disappointing.

Ouch, where can we find that information. Or can you post it. Thanks



Just go to AA.com and look at the schedule.





tphuang wrote:
N62NA wrote:
And once the two weeks of 321T service is over in January, AA is going all 321(standard) and one 738 on MIA-LAX. No lie flats at all.

Very disappointing.

it's like AA is looking to lose valued customers in South Florida. Good thing for them B6 has shifted its focus completely to BOS or else FLL-LAX might be up to 5 or 6x and FLL-SFO up to 3x by now.


Right.

On the one hand we've been told by certain member(s) here that "AA has a monopoly on MIA-LAX" and then on the other hand the same member(s) have said "FLL draws practically the same people as MIA, so B6 is competing with AA on the route to LAX." I do wonder how much of the AA MIA-LAX traffic has moved over to B6 so far and it will be interesting to see once the new schedule takes hold in January how many more will abandon AA for B6.
 
Boston757
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:20 am

AA does get a higher average fare on MIA-SFO & LAX , than B6 does out of FLL-SFO&LAX.
 
Boston757
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:20 am

AA does get a higher average fare on MIA-SFO & LAX , than B6 does out of FLL-SFO&LAX.
 
phxa340
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:36 am

Boston757 wrote:
AA does get a higher average fare on MIA-SFO & LAX , than B6 does out of FLL-SFO&LAX.


Woah , don’t let facts get in the way of the consistent mantra on here that B6 eats AAs lunch in S. FL ...

Why can’t both AA and B6 be wildly successful on their LAX - FL routes ?

It’s not mutually exclusive.
 
isp2
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:04 am

I think one of the most underreported stories in the South Florida aviation market the past 5 years - since the AA/US merger - is American’s willingness to essentially let B6 double their FLL operation by ceding gates in FLL to them. It is an interesting case study, and I’d be fascinated to know if the economics actually worked in American’s favor.

Many people forget that US had a sizable operation in FLL even through 2013/2014 after their failed mini-hub experiment in 2005 - still operating 25-30 daily flights to CLT, DCA, LGA, PHL, PIT, and PHX. FLL was one of their larger line MX stations, and they had 9 RON’s nightly. They were the signatory leaseholder on E1, E3, E5, E6, E7, E9, and E10.

American used to operate from F5 and F8 in FLL, and after WN bought FL American was moved to E2 and E4 - the former FL gates. When AA and US merged, they controlled 9 of the 10 gates in FLL T3-E (E8 has always been a county gate due to wide body capabilities, and E9 subsequently also became a county gate so both Azul and Norwegian could be accommodated). At the time, AA operated a 15 daily flight operation to DFW, JFK, LAX, ORD, and PAP.

The point of mergers is to reduce overlap and consolidate - and I’m sure AA didn’t want FLL drawing from it’s MIA fortress hub. But since the merger, the following has occurred:

AA has ended FLL-JFK/LAX/ORD/PAP, and the LUS-side ended FLL-DCA/PIT/PHX. Today, combined AA/US operates from just 4 of their former 9 gates and has dropped so far in FLL that United now has a higher market share than they do. JetBlue now has E2, E4, E6, E10 on the T3-E concourse and regularly use E8 and E9. Even the remaining American gates E1, E3, E5, and E7 are frequently in use by Spirit and occasionally JetBlue for overflow.

American could have kept JetBlue at 60-ish departures in FLL had they wanted to. They elected not to, and now JetBlue is at 110 daily flights.

Right decision by AA Corp Real Estate and Network Planning? Most will probably never know. Something to consider though when today premium customers fly B6 FLL-LAX as opposed to AA MIA-LAX.
 
N649DL
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:17 am

isp2 wrote:
I think one of the most underreported stories in the South Florida aviation market the past 5 years - since the AA/US merger - is American’s willingness to essentially let B6 double their FLL operation by ceding gates in FLL to them. It is an interesting case study, and I’d be fascinated to know if the economics actually worked in American’s favor.

Many people forget that US had a sizable operation in FLL even through 2013/2014 after their failed mini-hub experiment in 2005 - still operating 25-30 daily flights to CLT, DCA, LGA, PHL, PIT, and PHX. FLL was one of their larger line MX stations, and they had 9 RON’s nightly. They were the signatory leaseholder on E1, E3, E5, E6, E7, E9, and E10.

American used to operate from F5 and F8 in FLL, and after WN bought FL American was moved to E2 and E4 - the former FL gates. When AA and US merged, they controlled 9 of the 10 gates in FLL T3-E (E8 has always been a county gate due to wide body capabilities, and E9 subsequently also became a county gate so both Azul and Norwegian could be accommodated). At the time, AA operated a 15 daily flight operation to DFW, JFK, LAX, ORD, and PAP.

The point of mergers is to reduce overlap and consolidate - and I’m sure AA didn’t want FLL drawing from it’s MIA fortress hub. But since the merger, the following has occurred:

AA has ended FLL-JFK/LAX/ORD/PAP, and the LUS-side ended FLL-DCA/PIT/PHX. Today, combined AA/US operates from just 4 of their former 9 gates and has dropped so far in FLL that United now has a higher market share than they do. JetBlue now has E2, E4, E6, E10 on the T3-E concourse and regularly use E8 and E9. Even the remaining American gates E1, E3, E5, and E7 are frequently in use by Spirit and occasionally JetBlue for overflow.

American could have kept JetBlue at 60-ish departures in FLL had they wanted to. They elected not to, and now JetBlue is at 110 daily flights.

Right decision by AA Corp Real Estate and Network Planning? Most will probably never know. Something to consider though when today premium customers fly B6 FLL-LAX as opposed to AA MIA-LAX.


United screwed up in FLL too by dropping their codeshare with Silver Airways during the Smisek area. Back then UA could've made FLL a focus city competitive with US, AA, DL but also retracted
 
isp2
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:30 am

N649DL wrote:
isp2 wrote:
I think one of the most underreported stories in the South Florida aviation market the past 5 years - since the AA/US merger - is American’s willingness to essentially let B6 double their FLL operation by ceding gates in FLL to them. It is an interesting case study, and I’d be fascinated to know if the economics actually worked in American’s favor.

Many people forget that US had a sizable operation in FLL even through 2013/2014 after their failed mini-hub experiment in 2005 - still operating 25-30 daily flights to CLT, DCA, LGA, PHL, PIT, and PHX. FLL was one of their larger line MX stations, and they had 9 RON’s nightly. They were the signatory leaseholder on E1, E3, E5, E6, E7, E9, and E10.

American used to operate from F5 and F8 in FLL, and after WN bought FL American was moved to E2 and E4 - the former FL gates. When AA and US merged, they controlled 9 of the 10 gates in FLL T3-E (E8 has always been a county gate due to wide body capabilities, and E9 subsequently also became a county gate so both Azul and Norwegian could be accommodated). At the time, AA operated a 15 daily flight operation to DFW, JFK, LAX, ORD, and PAP.

The point of mergers is to reduce overlap and consolidate - and I’m sure AA didn’t want FLL drawing from it’s MIA fortress hub. But since the merger, the following has occurred:

AA has ended FLL-JFK/LAX/ORD/PAP, and the LUS-side ended FLL-DCA/PIT/PHX. Today, combined AA/US operates from just 4 of their former 9 gates and has dropped so far in FLL that United now has a higher market share than they do. JetBlue now has E2, E4, E6, E10 on the T3-E concourse and regularly use E8 and E9. Even the remaining American gates E1, E3, E5, and E7 are frequently in use by Spirit and occasionally JetBlue for overflow.

American could have kept JetBlue at 60-ish departures in FLL had they wanted to. They elected not to, and now JetBlue is at 110 daily flights.

Right decision by AA Corp Real Estate and Network Planning? Most will probably never know. Something to consider though when today premium customers fly B6 FLL-LAX as opposed to AA MIA-LAX.


United screwed up in FLL too by dropping their codeshare with Silver Airways during the Smisek area. Back then UA could've made FLL a focus city competitive with US, AA, DL but also retracted


United could pursue the 3M codeshare again tomorrow though if they wanted to... problem is that 3M is an absolute operational disaster.
 
Brickell305
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:32 pm

N649DL wrote:
isp2 wrote:
I think one of the most underreported stories in the South Florida aviation market the past 5 years - since the AA/US merger - is American’s willingness to essentially let B6 double their FLL operation by ceding gates in FLL to them. It is an interesting case study, and I’d be fascinated to know if the economics actually worked in American’s favor.

Many people forget that US had a sizable operation in FLL even through 2013/2014 after their failed mini-hub experiment in 2005 - still operating 25-30 daily flights to CLT, DCA, LGA, PHL, PIT, and PHX. FLL was one of their larger line MX stations, and they had 9 RON’s nightly. They were the signatory leaseholder on E1, E3, E5, E6, E7, E9, and E10.

American used to operate from F5 and F8 in FLL, and after WN bought FL American was moved to E2 and E4 - the former FL gates. When AA and US merged, they controlled 9 of the 10 gates in FLL T3-E (E8 has always been a county gate due to wide body capabilities, and E9 subsequently also became a county gate so both Azul and Norwegian could be accommodated). At the time, AA operated a 15 daily flight operation to DFW, JFK, LAX, ORD, and PAP.

The point of mergers is to reduce overlap and consolidate - and I’m sure AA didn’t want FLL drawing from it’s MIA fortress hub. But since the merger, the following has occurred:

AA has ended FLL-JFK/LAX/ORD/PAP, and the LUS-side ended FLL-DCA/PIT/PHX. Today, combined AA/US operates from just 4 of their former 9 gates and has dropped so far in FLL that United now has a higher market share than they do. JetBlue now has E2, E4, E6, E10 on the T3-E concourse and regularly use E8 and E9. Even the remaining American gates E1, E3, E5, and E7 are frequently in use by Spirit and occasionally JetBlue for overflow.

American could have kept JetBlue at 60-ish departures in FLL had they wanted to. They elected not to, and now JetBlue is at 110 daily flights.

Right decision by AA Corp Real Estate and Network Planning? Most will probably never know. Something to consider though when today premium customers fly B6 FLL-LAX as opposed to AA MIA-LAX.


United screwed up in FLL too by dropping their codeshare with Silver Airways during the Smisek area. Back then UA could've made FLL a focus city competitive with US, AA, DL but also retracted

Why would UA want to make FLL a focus city? It's the less premium of the two largest airports in the metro area (and the more premium airport has a well established legacy hub carrier), there is significant LCC/ULCC competition plus a relatively large DL presence thanks mainly to the ATL hub. FLL would be a money pit for any legacy that tried to establish a hub/focus city.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:11 pm

vhtje wrote:
I really enjoy the AA 321T Service. I am no fleet planner, but I always think AA do not have enough of these aircraft - every time I have been on it the flight has been full.


AA continued to take new deliveries of 321ceos until until about 25 months ago. They could have put more in a 321T config if they wanted to - without developing yet another sub-fleet. They could reconfigure some nearly-new 321s today.
 
MAH4546
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:13 pm

Boston757 wrote:
AA does get a higher average fare on MIA-SFO & LAX , than B6 does out of FLL-SFO&LAX.


Yup. Even more reason AA doesn't see a need to compete. Meanwhile, many premium passengers will just continue to use jetBlue. AA doesn't have a reason to react at the moment. It tried reacting in Boston and failed.
a.
 
tphuang
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:30 pm

I did post that AA had slightly higher avg fare than B6 did on the south florida-lax/sfo, but keep in mind that AA has far more connection traffic than B6. So if you factor that in, hard to see how AA would be generating higher yield than B6 on 2 routes where they get no competition out of MIA. And also keep in mind that was before AA decided to go to all single aisle with no lie flat cabin.
 
Boston757
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:04 pm

phxa340 wrote:
Boston757 wrote:
AA does get a higher average fare on MIA-SFO & LAX , than B6 does out of FLL-SFO&LAX.


Woah , don’t let facts get in the way of the consistent mantra on here that B6 eats AAs lunch in S. FL ...

Why can’t both AA and B6 be wildly successful on their LAX - FL routes ?

It’s not mutually exclusive.

Facts are your OT. This is simply AA using 321t on LAX-MIA-LAX. It’s like DN is here talking at large.
 
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N62NA
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Re: AA 321T LAX-MIA?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:11 pm

Boston757 wrote:
Facts are your OT. This is simply AA using 321t on LAX-MIA-LAX. It’s like DN is here talking at large.



Not sure what you mean here. "OT" = Off Topic?

AA isn't using 321T on MIA-LAX-MIA except for a brief 2 week period late December / early January, then all narrowbodies with no lie-flat.

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