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DLASFlyer
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DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:58 am

According to the latest winter flight schedule from the Jackson Hole Airport, Delta will begin flying Airbus 321s from ATL from February 16th, 2020, replacing the 757-200. I am surprised as JAC's runway is only 6,300 feet long at 6,450' in elevation. To my knowledge, no airline has ever served JAC with a 321 (or a 737-900.) I wonder if the 321 will frequently be payload optimized? United's A320s frequently are.

https://228k3g4ee2bb2v3oe82te2b2-wpengi ... ir2020.pdf
 
Alitalia744
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:06 am

According to the PDF listed there is no outbound for the 321.

All four outbound ATLs are 757s so must be an error of type on the inbound, or they're still adjusting schedules.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:23 am

The flights are currently loaded as 73G on weekdays and 757 on Saturdays.

I guarantee they won't be flying the A321 into JAC. That PDF isn't accurate.
 
evank516
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:24 am

I can't imagine it's accurate. I highly doubt the 321 could safely operate at JAC with a viable payload.
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:45 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The flights are currently loaded as 73G on weekdays and 757 on Saturdays.

I guarantee they won't be flying the A321 into JAC. That PDF isn't accurate.


Thanks for looking. Is MSP-JAC really done after January 5th? That would be a major loss. It was 2x daily at times this summer.
 
alasizon
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:52 am

DLASFlyer wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The flights are currently loaded as 73G on weekdays and 757 on Saturdays.

I guarantee they won't be flying the A321 into JAC. That PDF isn't accurate.


Thanks for looking. Is MSP-JAC really done after January 5th? That would be a major loss. It was 2x daily at times this summer.


JAC is a very seasonal market so MSP-JAC will resume in the summer. It takes a hiatus for the late winter & Spring.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:54 am

alasizon wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The flights are currently loaded as 73G on weekdays and 757 on Saturdays.

I guarantee they won't be flying the A321 into JAC. That PDF isn't accurate.


Thanks for looking. Is MSP-JAC really done after January 5th? That would be a major loss. It was 2x daily at times this summer.


JAC is a very seasonal market so MSP-JAC will resume in the summer. It takes a hiatus for the late winter & Spring.


A January 5th end would be a very short winter run. Last year it ran 1-2x daily through late March.
 
WN732
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:55 am

alasizon wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The flights are currently loaded as 73G on weekdays and 757 on Saturdays.

I guarantee they won't be flying the A321 into JAC. That PDF isn't accurate.


Thanks for looking. Is MSP-JAC really done after January 5th? That would be a major loss. It was 2x daily at times this summer.


JAC is a very seasonal market so MSP-JAC will resume in the summer. It takes a hiatus for the late winter & Spring.


People from MSP don't go to an equally cold place in the winter, unless they like to ski. Then they would go to Salt Lake City, or Denver for that.
 
RJNUT
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:37 am

DLASFlyer wrote:
alasizon wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:

Thanks for looking. Is MSP-JAC really done after January 5th? That would be a major loss. It was 2x daily at times this summer.


JAC is a very seasonal market so MSP-JAC will resume in the summer. It takes a hiatus for the late winter & Spring.


A January 5th end would be a very short winter run. Last year it ran 1-2x daily through late March.

seems like some seasonal ski service runs mid-December thru New Year's and then a hiatus until President's Day( mid-Feb )until end of March ?!
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:46 am

WN732 wrote:
People from MSP don't go to an equally cold place in the winter, unless they like to ski. Then they would go to Salt Lake City, or Denver for that.


Might want to tell that to United and American who are flying daily all winter from Chicago. Nevermind winter service from all three NYC airports.
 
LAXBUR
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:51 pm

Delta is very good at optimizing their schedule. That’s why they make lots of money. They can run plenty through SLC during slower times.
 
Elementalism
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:51 pm

It will be interesting to see what happens to these hot and high airports in the next decade as the 757 retires into the dustbin of history. Weight restricted A320s cant be desired by the airlines. Is this something an A220 could manage at full load?

Might be these airports will need to lengthen their runways to handle less performing aircraft.
 
airbazar
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:06 pm

Elementalism wrote:
It will be interesting to see what happens to these hot and high airports in the next decade as the 757 retires into the dustbin of history. Weight restricted A320s cant be desired by the airlines. Is this something an A220 could manage at full load?

Might be these airports will need to lengthen their runways to handle less performing aircraft.

No need to lengthen runways as aircraft performance keep getting better. There aren't that many of those airports that require such a large plane anyway but it all depends on the length of runway and terrain.
In the case of JAC, A320's/B738's should have no problem operating out of there. The A321NEO with its increased takeoff performance will likely be able to as well. If it can get out of OGG for a long flight to LAX it might be able to get out of JAC for a relatively shorter hop to ATL.
 
amcnd
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:19 pm

And I doubt DL CRJ 700 will happen. Maybe a E175.. as OO has moves most 700’s east. Except for 1 that does Aspen..
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:22 pm

Elementalism wrote:
It will be interesting to see what happens to these hot and high airports in the next decade as the 757 retires into the dustbin of history. Weight restricted A320s cant be desired by the airlines. Is this something an A220 could manage at full load?

Might be these airports will need to lengthen their runways to handle less performing aircraft.


You might have a look at the OP's PDF for the variety of aircraft that are scheduled in. It might be tough to find something both big and with long range but carriers can overcome that by fragmenting traffic to closer hubs, for the most part.
 
mm320cap
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:40 pm

airbazar wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
It will be interesting to see what happens to these hot and high airports in the next decade as the 757 retires into the dustbin of history. Weight restricted A320s cant be desired by the airlines. Is this something an A220 could manage at full load?

Might be these airports will need to lengthen their runways to handle less performing aircraft.

No need to lengthen runways as aircraft performance keep getting better. There aren't that many of those airports that require such a large plane anyway but it all depends on the length of runway and terrain.
In the case of JAC, A320's/B738's should have no problem operating out of there. The A321NEO with its increased takeoff performance will likely be able to as well. If it can get out of OGG for a long flight to LAX it might be able to get out of JAC for a relatively shorter hop to ATL.


A320’s and 738’s don’t work well in JAC. Even the A319 was tight when I flew in there. We frequently needed a decent headwind to maximize payload on takeoff.

The NEO and MAX should perform better
 
stburke
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:44 pm

airbazar wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
It will be interesting to see what happens to these hot and high airports in the next decade as the 757 retires into the dustbin of history. Weight restricted A320s cant be desired by the airlines. Is this something an A220 could manage at full load?

Might be these airports will need to lengthen their runways to handle less performing aircraft.

No need to lengthen runways as aircraft performance keep getting better. There aren't that many of those airports that require such a large plane anyway but it all depends on the length of runway and terrain.
In the case of JAC, A320's/B738's should have no problem operating out of there. The A321NEO with its increased takeoff performance will likely be able to as well. If it can get out of OGG for a long flight to LAX it might be able to get out of JAC for a relatively shorter hop to ATL.


No 738's operate into JAC. In the case of the 321, the corresponding outbound is a 757. I'd imagine it's a typo.
 
dcaproducer
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:44 pm

Looks like the PDF has been updated. There are no A321's on the schedule.
I fly to JAC every January on DL and it's always been a mix of C700/900's, A319 and 757s. Midday Saturday's get kinda busy when all of the airlines fly in pretty much at the same time.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:17 pm

JAC is a very seasonal airport.
Peak Summer is very busy with traffic visiting the mountains, the broader Jackson area, Grand Teton NP, and Yellowstone NP
This season runs roughly from mid-June through early September.
The number of flights significantly drops after Labor Day, and is cut to the minimum with basically DL-SLC, UA-DEN, and AA-DFW running during the low season of Oct-early Dec when ski season begins.

Winter traffic is also highly seasonal based heavily around holiday and break schedules.
Early Winter December before the holidays is slow and ski/snow conditions highly unpredictable year over year
Peak holiday over the two week Christmas & New Years period is extremely busy, if not the busiest and most expensive period of the season
Early-Jan through mid-Feb (Presidents' Day) is also relatively slower and normal-paced since its between any major school break periods.
Mid-Feb through end of March is peak ski season aligns with generally some of the best conditions and also when all the major school and university mid-winter and spring break periods occur.
Early Apr is extremely quiet as the ski season comes to a close by mid-April.

Hence you see the variability in air service in destinations and frequencies so much throughout the year with some destinations run only for holiday periods, some Sat-only, some only for 6 weeks, and frequent change in gauge and times.

Again, DL will only operate 73G, 757, A319, E7W, and CR7 into JAC.

I just flew out of there last week. My A319 on SLC-JAC only had about 30 people on-board, granted in was a Tuesday night in October. The outbound on Saturday back to SLC was basically full.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:36 pm

Again the PDF is incorrect, as it was probably generated some time ago by the airport or the community air service group.
The airline website reflects the latest and greatest of what is actually loaded for the flights:

Here is what is actually loaded:
ATL - 73G off-peak weekdays, 757 weekends and holiday periods
JFK - 757 (Sat-only)
LAX - E7W (daily holiday period, Sat-only otherwise) operated by Skywest
MSP - 319 (daily holiday period only; note this does operate more during peak summer than winter season)
SLC - 3x 319 daily, with some days an additional 4th flight E7W operated by Skywest
SEA - E7W (daily holiday period, Sat-only otherwise) operated by Skywest
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:44 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
WN732 wrote:
People from MSP don't go to an equally cold place in the winter, unless they like to ski. Then they would go to Salt Lake City, or Denver for that.


Might want to tell that to United and American who are flying daily all winter from Chicago. Nevermind winter service from all three NYC airports.


What does that have to do with MSP?

Chicago and Minneapolis often have very different weather in the winter. Chicago averages warmer temperatures than does Minneapolis, and New York is warmer still.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
ual763
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:04 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
WN732 wrote:
People from MSP don't go to an equally cold place in the winter, unless they like to ski. Then they would go to Salt Lake City, or Denver for that.


Might want to tell that to United and American who are flying daily all winter from Chicago. Nevermind winter service from all three NYC airports.


What does that have to do with MSP?

Chicago and Minneapolis often have very different weather in the winter. Chicago averages warmer temperatures than does Minneapolis, and New York is warmer still.


Sorry, but a few degree difference during the coldest months of the year, means nothing. Chicago is damn cold, just like MSP. And up on the slopes in January, it is just as cold in the Denver mountains as it would be in the JAC mountain area. Skiers don’t pick where they go based on temperature. They pick where they go based on who has the best skiing. And KJAC is one of the absolute best out there.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:32 pm

JH Air https://www.jacksonholeair.org/ , a local community/industry/tourism non-profit group coordinates and negotates air service with the airlines. Since the community and surrounding region is heavily reliant on destination tourists and skiers, providing good air service connectivity is vital to the economy of the region.

This group is responsible for negotiating the air service needs with the airlines and based on the pledges and donations from the area businesses, lodges/hotels, and ski resorts provides minimum revenue guarantees. In essence, a subsidy of sorts particularly for the shoulder season and off-peak flights.

Some interesting data from the website; last winters' overall load factor was 75% based on 200,000 seats with 50,000 going empty.
During shoulder season in fall and spring, the air service is 50% Jackson originating passengers (local, not tourist related passengers).

Regarding the destination skiers, its generally an upper class socioeconomic class sport and the biggest markets include NYC, Chicago, and LA. South Florida is huge for Vail Resorts, not sure so much about Jackson Hole since by large the skiing is generally a lot more difficult than the big Colorado resorts.

MSP just don't have the shear number compared to other markets and also in fact that DL chooses to route their connections into JAC into primarily SLC which is a quick 40 minute flight up to JAC. When it was NW, yes they did have MSP-JAC service since that was the best available connecting hub in their network.
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:35 pm

mm320cap wrote:

A320’s and 738’s don’t work well in JAC. Even the A319 was tight when I flew in there. We frequently needed a decent headwind to maximize payload on takeoff.

The NEO and MAX should perform better


The A319 has become quite the heavy lifter in JAC. At times this summer, there were more than 10 daily A319 flights from LGA, DFW, ORD, DEN, SFO, SLC and MSP. Pretty cool with them all lined up in front of the Tetons in four different liveries.
 
dcaproducer
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:14 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
JH Air https://www.jacksonholeair.org/ , a local community/industry/tourism non-profit group coordinates and negotates air service with the airlines. Since the community and surrounding region is heavily reliant on destination tourists and skiers, providing good air service connectivity is vital to the economy of the region.

This group is responsible for negotiating the air service needs with the airlines and based on the pledges and donations from the area businesses, lodges/hotels, and ski resorts provides minimum revenue guarantees. In essence, a subsidy of sorts particularly for the shoulder season and off-peak flights.

Some interesting data from the website; last winters' overall load factor was 75% based on 200,000 seats with 50,000 going empty.
During shoulder season in fall and spring, the air service is 50% Jackson originating passengers (local, not tourist related passengers).

Regarding the destination skiers, its generally an upper class socioeconomic class sport and the biggest markets include NYC, Chicago, and LA. South Florida is huge for Vail Resorts, not sure so much about Jackson Hole since by large the skiing is generally a lot more difficult than the big Colorado resorts.

MSP just don't have the shear number compared to other markets and also in fact that DL chooses to route their connections into JAC into primarily SLC which is a quick 40 minute flight up to JAC. When it was NW, yes they did have MSP-JAC service since that was the best available connecting hub in their network.


I've been skiing in JH for the past six winters. (Grew up skiing in Colorado)
Many of the skiers I encounter are from NYC, DC and SFO Bay Area and LA. Plus Europeans. The crowds are much smaller than I experience in Colorado in places like Breckenridge, etc. Hotels in JH are a fraction of the cost of summer. The hotel I normally say at is about $140/nt in winter and $400+ in summer.

The DL flights have always been full when I'm there in winter. A few years ago the SLC-JAC flights were mostly RJ's and now there are more mainline aircraft. (in my experience)
 
airbazar
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:34 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Regarding the destination skiers, its generally an upper class socioeconomic class sport and the biggest markets include NYC, Chicago, and LA. South Florida is huge for Vail Resorts, not sure so much about Jackson Hole since by large the skiing is generally a lot more difficult than the big Colorado resorts.

Jackson Hole is on the Ikon pass so it should be a heck lot more popular with destination skiers if it wasn't for the very high air fares. For example, I'm flying to DEN for xmas vacation for $300 r/t. JAC was at least $700 IIRC. BZN falls somewhere in between. What's the difference? Competition. Everyone flies to DEN and at BZN you have the likes of Jetblue, Allegiant, and Alaska. When B6 starts flying to JAC you'll start to see a lot more destination skiers.
I've only been there in Summer. Beautiful place but I'm not paying $700 to get there :) For that kind of money I can go ski in the Alps.
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:34 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
The DL flights have always been full when I'm there in winter. A few years ago the SLC-JAC flights were mostly RJ's and now there are more mainline aircraft. (in my experience)


Delta's 3x daily SLC-JAC A319 flights now run 364 days a year (only 2x on Christmas.) It is a huge improvement from the days of CRJ-700s in both offseasons. This summer there were no CRJs at all from Delta, only E175s and bigger. Makes me wonder when Alaska, JetBlue etc. may want in on this high fare destination. SEA-JAC is one of only two domestic Seattle routes Delta flies that AS does not.
 
dcaproducer
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Re: DL Schedules 321s into JAC

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:14 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
The DL flights have always been full when I'm there in winter. A few years ago the SLC-JAC flights were mostly RJ's and now there are more mainline aircraft. (in my experience)


Delta's 3x daily SLC-JAC A319 flights now run 364 days a year (only 2x on Christmas.) It is a huge improvement from the days of CRJ-700s in both offseasons. This summer there were no CRJs at all from Delta, only E175s and bigger. Makes me wonder when Alaska, JetBlue etc. may want in on this high fare destination. SEA-JAC is one of only two domestic Seattle routes Delta flies that AS does not.


I’m sure AS could make SEA and SFO work to JAC.

JAC is probably my favorite small airport. Comfy waiting area and super friendly private security folks.

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