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Yakflyer
Posts: 122
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:32 pm

Revelation wrote:
jagraham wrote:
The 767-400 already has the 777 glass cockpit.

A.net pedantry rules require me to comment that the 767-400 has the 777 glass displays yet a very different cockpit.


I would like to inquire just what constitutes "a very different cockpit"? In my opinion the cockpits are very similar. Granted the 767-400 computers are dumbed down a little bit and there is no track pad or electronic checklists, but to the untrained eye the cockpits look pretty much the same. Couple that with the fact that the 777 cab is just a 767 nose blended onto a larger diameter fuselage where do we cross the line from similar to very different?
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:34 pm

I believe this is a primarily freight consideration, any pax sales are a bonus. Those pax sales would come from airlines that want more cargo capacity than the MOM is likely to have. I am not an expert on CORSIA but I recall that as the 767 is using older engines that cannot be delivered (or ordered after - I have seen both) by 2027 will need to cease production.

Yes the 764 wings will be used, except the winglets will be adjusted to keep the 763 wingspan. The bigger gear will make a difference.

A quick comparison: 744F 748F 763F 764 76XF wag
Engines (4) CF6-80C2 GEnx-2B (2) CF6-80C2 (2) CF6-80C2 (2) GEnx-2B
Thrust each 61,500 lbf 66,500 lbf 61,500 lbf 61,500 lbf 66,500 lbf 8% more thrust
MTOW 875,000 lb 975,000 412,000 450,000 lbf 450,000 lbf 9% increase
Max Payload 148,412 192,000 ? 121,000 102,600 lbf 140,000 lbf 19% increase
MLW 630,000 763,000 326,000 350,000 350,000 lbf 7% increase

The GEnx weight is 12,397 lb vs 9,860 2,537 lb added ea, basically 5,000 added

It looks to be a quite mean freighter, if no extra range increase somewhere around 15% more payload, volume up by almost 20% with 764 length.

For GE it allows the CF6 engine to probably stop production as the KC-46 uses PW. It also allows the GEnx-2B production to greatly increase improving unit cost and spares cost considerably.

For Boeing, it probably improves the 748F pricing as the engine cost will drop and the operators can have common engines if they have both the 748F and 76XF. More 748F sales and 767 freighter sales.

Could Boeing be seeing the 778F as not being optimum. the 77F carries more but a shorter distance, but I recall the 77F is almost preferred. Does it stay in production and the 77X freighter deferred say 10 years. The 76XF would be cheaper and the 767 is a quite popular freighter.

It also allows for any freighter variants of the NMA and 787 to be postponed a decade or more.
 
fcogafa
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:48 pm

The Flight article says it would be available mid decade, strange, that is not so different from the 797 timescale
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:49 pm

Could make a cheap market test for a MOM.
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:50 pm

patrickjp93 wrote:
The 757 lacks a supercritical wing


Where did you get this idea? As a demonstration of 757 wing technology, can you name another airliner with a 0.80M long range cruise speed that has 25 degree sweep wing?
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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ODwyerPW
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:00 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
Yes the 764 wings will be used, except the winglets will be adjusted to keep the 763 wingspan. The bigger gear will make a difference.


Why is the greater 764 wingspan an issue? It doesn't really have to worry about gate space does it? (I'm asking, not being critical... I honestly don't know if that is an issue or not). It must improve the plane or it would not have been added. What are the negatives?
learning never stops.
 
2175301
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:04 am

I believe that this study will actually help make the NMA business case. It will show that with perhaps a modest number of niche passenger aircraft over some years (my est 500-750 max) that there is no reasonable market for the passenger version because the NMA will be sufficiently more efficient to displace it except for a limited niche.

I can see why they are studying it - and for the freight market. I'll be surprised if it was produced for just the freight market if it moves past the study phase. At the same time a passenger variant could relieve some of the initial production stress on the NMA and allow it time to ramp up its production.

It's an interesting study. Most studies do not pan out - or tell you to do something else. Again, I think this study will make the case for the NMA - that there really is no good alternative.

Have a great day,
 
jfk777
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:20 am

After Boeing get done in early 2020 with the MAX headache it needs some transformative news, launching the NMA and whatever replaces the 737. Even if it takes the better part of 10 year just to change the headline. It time for something new from Seattle. Boeing is good at the upper end of the market and ultra long range but stinks at the short haul right now and needs to dump the 737. Deliver the 4,000 MAX ordered but let's make the A320 yesterday's airplane.
 
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qf2220
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:20 am

I wonder if there are any historically imparied/written off development costs for the 764 sitting on balance sheet for Boeing that might be reversable (to create paper income) if they now develop an aircraft based on the 764?
 
2175301
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:28 am

patrickjp93 wrote:
That doesn't mean the 757 is dead.


KFTG wrote:
danipawa wrote:
Interesting, what they should do with the 757..

They can't do anything with the 757, because all of the tooling to build it has been destroyed. It was built at Renton, not Paine Field like the 767.



patrickjp93 & danipawa. I like your opinion of "what if" the 757 was still and option; and largely agree If....

I'd like to provide a more complete answer as to why it is not than just that the main tooling was destroyed (as it could be recreated if everything else was in place).

Restarting production of a 757 type aircraft would require much more than just building a new set of tooling. You would first have to convert all the drawings from mylar (paper original Final drawings died before the 757 was designed). Most companies cannot work from actual "blueprints" anymore. You need to have CAD controlled items - which means CAD drawings. Boeing found out how much of challenge and mess converting drawings were for the 747-8; and they have had to digitize a lot of prints related to the 737 and modern versions of the 767. This is a massive project.

Since virtually all major part production has been shut down and the tooling destroyed (even at the sub contractor level); its better to design many new parts than to try to recreate the older parts. Most of the subcontractors who supplied the parts are actually not interested in going back to doing things the old way or producing the old version of current things they make for the aircraft industry.

There will by it's very nature of how the industry and parts suppliers have changed - require a lot of modernization work with the relevant certifications.

A reality, is that you would likely cost at least 50%, and perhaps 75%, of a clean sheet design to pull this off, and return to market would not be much faster than a clean sheet program as well.

There is not enough of a market to justify that cost.

Of course... IF... IF it was still in production and all the old parts and equipment pieces still available... It would be a lot less costly and faster to modify and bring to market in a modern format.

Sometimes reality hurts.... The 757 is dead, and not coming back.

Have a great day,
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:34 am

fcogafa wrote:
The Flight article says it would be available mid decade, strange, that is not so different from the 797 timescale

Which if true is another indication that they aren't really targeting this at the MOM passenger market.

If they were, they would have a shorter development time line, since the engine is already available and the only mods being done are gears plus some strengthening needed for the extra engine weight.

Also it's a pretty strong strategic need to get something out to fill the MOM passenger requirement, so one would think the program would be fast tracked.

The time line would be like the A330neo but without the -7000 development hassle.
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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DALMD80
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:42 am

Ooh! Let's do a GEnx 767-300ER! The -300ER looks great!
You can take the boy away from aviation, but you can't take aviation out of the boy.
 
9Patch
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:17 am

StTim wrote:
I am not sure that Boeing has got away with grandfathering the 777X fusekage structure - given that they have produced stress and fatgue frames. The sidewall sculpting will have changed stress profiles quite significantly.


Are you speculating again?
 
rbavfan
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:32 am

texl1649 wrote:
kjeld0d wrote:
My advice: Lengthen it a few frames. Then install a computer control system to keep it flyable.


No commercial aircraft has ever been certified as fly by wire where the predecessor was fly by steel. Boeing's record 'patching' CoG issues with electronic systems is not....great.


You realize the A320/A330/A340/A350/A380 fly by wire was developed by the A300-600 with fly by wire conversion from the old non-600 series A300 that was not fly by wire.
 
Lufthansa
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:35 am

The whole article was just clickbait.

The reality is, if they attempted this and there was interest, Airbus just discounts the A330-800
like no tomorrow and sweeps in and gets a lot of the orders, and gets the delivered faster.
Yes, a re engined 767-400 would probably be lighter but unless they can do it really cheap...
and keep a lot of the old systems the same its pointless. In terms of a freighter the 338 will be
able to lift more, and in terms of pax the only carrier this makes sense for is UA. So upgrades will
have to be minimal. Basically accomodating new engines and updating the cabin.

And I agree with the others. If they're going to do this, then it should be 763 sized, not 764.
The A332 whipped the 764's butt once and the 338 could do it to a re engined one if sold dirt
cheap but I suspect given the operating costs won't be that much lower, its the A321XLR that will
win out here. It probably already has.
 
SEU
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:47 am

I take it this mean the 787-3 couldnt be a thing?
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:48 am

Revelation wrote:
Easy on those victory laps, my friend.

I guess you didn't notice the "seems" in boldface. :wink2:


Revelation wrote:
Which is the same thing they've said about NMA, 2011-ish NSA, Sonic Cruiser, etc.

Hence the question.....

Devilfish wrote:
But it's rather curious that B is mulling this at a time when gloomy news abound about the cargo business. Is it to deflect attention from the NMA and their other worries?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
rbavfan
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:49 am

texl1649 wrote:
The GEnX was first run around 2006. This is an engine that was largely developed roughly 20 years ago (more, from an EIS perspective on some 767 derivative). Who in their right mind would put a new model out with it's basis 40+ year old wings and a 20 year old engine?

Sure, they could easily throw it on some freighters, and GE would be happy to offer it as an upgrade to the KC-46 in another 10 (or 40) years, but it's silly as a passenger model consideration. The 787 itself is approaching an NEO/MAX age.


You realize the 737 came out in the 60's and the 767 in the early 80's, not the 60's. Also the GEnx was developed for the 787 & 748, not a 767 derivitive! please fact check before posting bad information.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:03 am

william wrote:
keesje wrote:
I think I created posts on that 13, 7, 2, 1 years ago. First I had the Dreamliner crowd all over me (787 = 767 replacement) later on the MOM/NMA crowd.

Always felt it was a reasonable idea. The 767 is 30t lighter than the A330/787, right sized, got significant updated for the -400ER and KC-46.

And it has an existing production line and supply chain. And United asked for it.. and can do serious cargo.. and lacks expensive composites infrastructure.. and has a much better MCAS..

Image


Boeing may prove you right after all Keejse. :D

Maybe Boeing has been reading Anet over the years. LOL.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1376671&p=19899493&hilit=767+max+767max#p19899493

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=606811&p=9681851&hilit=767+max+767max#p9681851


In 2014 I had also suggested a 767MAX with GenX.

I do not pretend to say that Boeing read me!

On the other hand, Boeing has always maintained the date of entry into service of the NMA in 2025.
We always knew that it would be in the 767's class.

For me it is clear, Boeing is preparing to launch (finally) his plan!
 
UPS757Pilot
Posts: 106
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:05 am

Lufthansa wrote:
The whole article was just clickbait.

The reality is, if they attempted this and there was interest, Airbus just discounts the A330-800
like no tomorrow and sweeps in and gets a lot of the orders, and gets the delivered faster.
Yes, a re engined 767-400 would probably be lighter but unless they can do it really cheap...
and keep a lot of the old systems the same its pointless. In terms of a freighter the 338 will be
able to lift more, and in terms of pax the only carrier this makes sense for is UA. So upgrades will
have to be minimal. Basically accomodating new engines and updating the cabin.

And I agree with the others. If they're going to do this, then it should be 763 sized, not 764.
The A332 whipped the 764's butt once and the 338 could do it to a re engined one if sold dirt
cheap but I suspect given the operating costs won't be that much lower, its the A321XLR that will
win out here. It probably already has.

Did you read that it will be an MD-11 replacement on the freighter side - that's why they would model the 767-400 over the -300.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:18 am

texl1649 wrote:
kjeld0d wrote:
My advice: Lengthen it a few frames. Then install a computer control system to keep it flyable.


No commercial aircraft has ever been certified as fly by wire where the predecessor was fly by steel. Boeing's record 'patching' CoG issues with electronic systems is not....great.

Didn't a significant portion of the 747-8 flight controls get converted to FBW?
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:28 am

Wouldn't the whole reason to do this for the cargo market be that some date is approaching when Boeing has to stop selling the 767 due to some emissions regulation?
 
Checklist787
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:36 am

fcogafa wrote:
The Flight article says it would be available mid decade, strange, that is not so different from the 797 timescale


Congratulations!

After a hundred comments, you are the only one to have made the connection with 2025. As I explain above,

Boeing is preparing to execute his plan. The NMA / 797X has always been based on the 767 jet!
 
patrickjp93
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:44 am

mxaxai wrote:
PhilMcCrackin wrote:
The freighter market makes sense as it doesn't have any direct Boeing competition for such a thing.

If there is no competition for the 767F - which is quite true IMHO - why would Boeing even bother with this upgrade? They've proven that the existing 767F still sells well, although production rates remain far below other widebodies.

Because, never give the competition an easy time of it. Airbus is having cashflow problems with no freighter market and no ability to push the A330 NEO production up to 14 frames per month, which is making the A330 NEO pricier than they'd like to help drive sales. Boeing's trying to lock in their bellwether market just in case passenger airlines' orders REALLY start slumping in the event of global recession (and downward pressure from the frames soon up for sale or cheap lease thanks to recently failed airlines).
 
patrickjp93
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:52 am

OldAeroGuy wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
The 757 lacks a supercritical wing


Where did you get this idea? As a demonstration of 757 wing technology, can you name another airliner with a 0.80M long range cruise speed that has 25 degree sweep wing?

You're confused on definitions. Is the Truss-Braced Wing supercritical? No... The 737 MAX's wing is a hybrid that gets close, but if you compare the 767 to the 787 and A350 wing-wise, you'll realize the differences.
 
patrickjp93
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:08 am

2175301 wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
That doesn't mean the 757 is dead.


KFTG wrote:
danipawa wrote:
Interesting, what they should do with the 757..

They can't do anything with the 757, because all of the tooling to build it has been destroyed. It was built at Renton, not Paine Field like the 767.



patrickjp93 & danipawa. I like your opinion of "what if" the 757 was still and option; and largely agree If....

I'd like to provide a more complete answer as to why it is not than just that the main tooling was destroyed (as it could be recreated if everything else was in place).

Restarting production of a 757 type aircraft would require much more than just building a new set of tooling. You would first have to convert all the drawings from mylar (paper original Final drawings died before the 757 was designed). Most companies cannot work from actual "blueprints" anymore. You need to have CAD controlled items - which means CAD drawings. Boeing found out how much of challenge and mess converting drawings were for the 747-8; and they have had to digitize a lot of prints related to the 737 and modern versions of the 767. This is a massive project.

Boeing (and the CAD community) already went through the pain of automating this before. That being said, it isn't necessary. Start from the basic specs of length, fuselage radius, wing box length, and then otherwise start fresh (and then grandfather it under the old type rating). The 757 is a 70s design. There's so much room to improve it you may as well just start fresh in terms of thought where possible. In fact, welcome to how the 777X was designed! :D

Since virtually all major part production has been shut down and the tooling destroyed (even at the sub contractor level); its better to design many new parts than to try to recreate the older parts. Most of the subcontractors who supplied the parts are actually not interested in going back to doing things the old way or producing the old version of current things they make for the aircraft industry.

There will by it's very nature of how the industry and parts suppliers have changed - require a lot of modernization work with the relevant certifications.

EASA and FAA allow new iterations of parts all the time. While there would be "many" in this case all at once, that's not nearly the problem you make it out to be. "Yeah, you remember how you approved those narrower, lighter, carbon-fiber cables for the 737 NG and they've proven to be amazing? Yeah we're replacing the old steel 757 cables with those. Approve please? K, thanks!" :)

A reality, is that you would likely cost at least 50%, and perhaps 75%, of a clean sheet design to pull this off, and return to market would not be much faster than a clean sheet program as well.
Speed is all a matter of FAA bandwidth in this case. All Boeing has to do is "Keep It Simple Stupid" on upgrading the designs. Don't try to shoot the moon. Put the fuselage ribs no farther apart than on the 737 MAX, make the fuselage out of Al-Li since we know it's lighter and stronger than the original alloy for the 757, sculpt out the inside for passenger comfort, extend the landing gear as far as needed so the new engines don't have to be mounted forward, use the proven lightweight components from other current assembly lines (wiring, tubing, cables, fasteners, etc.), and you don't create any pitfalls for yourself!

There is not enough of a market to justify that cost.

Of course... IF... IF it was still in production and all the old parts and equipment pieces still available... It would be a lot less costly and faster to modify and bring to market in a modern format.

Sometimes reality hurts.... The 757 is dead, and not coming back.

Have a great day,


The MOM has room for what, 800 planes was Boeing's last figure? That's plenty of market.
 
catiii
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:35 am

patrickjp93 wrote:
Look I get the 767 has been a highly successful freighter, but Boeing can't be serious. The 788F is the obvious successor to that, and the 787 backlog has shrunk once again, so the time to launch the 787F is now. The NMA honestly should be a re-engined, re-winged 757 stretch if they're going to go down a derivative/grandfathering route.


Why is the 787 Freighter an obvious successor? What would a hypothetical 787 freighter do that the existing 767 and 777 freighters can’t do?
 
patrickjp93
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:46 am

catiii wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
Look I get the 767 has been a highly successful freighter, but Boeing can't be serious. The 788F is the obvious successor to that, and the 787 backlog has shrunk once again, so the time to launch the 787F is now. The NMA honestly should be a re-engined, re-winged 757 stretch if they're going to go down a derivative/grandfathering route.


Why is the 787 Freighter an obvious successor? What would a hypothetical 787 freighter do that the existing 767 and 777 freighters can’t do?
For the 788, slightly more payload weight on a 20% greater range and much better fuel economics. Freighters usually bulk out long before hitting MTOW, apart from the 747s. The 788F can provide much more space which means much more effective payload. Not to mention the all-composite wing and fuselage design reduces C and D checks, so better operational economics too.
 
United857
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:55 am

Yakflyer wrote:
Revelation wrote:
jagraham wrote:
The 767-400 already has the 777 glass cockpit.

A.net pedantry rules require me to comment that the 767-400 has the 777 glass displays yet a very different cockpit.


I would like to inquire just what constitutes "a very different cockpit"? In my opinion the cockpits are very similar. Granted the 767-400 computers are dumbed down a little bit and there is no track pad or electronic checklists, but to the untrained eye the cockpits look pretty much the same. Couple that with the fact that the 777 cab is just a 767 nose blended onto a larger diameter fuselage where do we cross the line from similar to very different?

The 764 has the 777 LCD displays, but that's where the similarities end. The autopilot panel, overhead panel, center pedestal, and FMC (basically all the systems-management parts of the cockpit) are unchanged from the 762 and 763.
Last edited by United857 on Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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UPS757Pilot
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:57 am

patrickjp93 wrote:
catiii wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
Look I get the 767 has been a highly successful freighter, but Boeing can't be serious. The 788F is the obvious successor to that, and the 787 backlog has shrunk once again, so the time to launch the 787F is now. The NMA honestly should be a re-engined, re-winged 757 stretch if they're going to go down a derivative/grandfathering route.


Why is the 787 Freighter an obvious successor? What would a hypothetical 787 freighter do that the existing 767 and 777 freighters can’t do?
For the 788, slightly more payload weight on a 20% greater range and much better fuel economics. Freighters usually bulk out long before hitting MTOW, apart from the 747s. The 788F can provide much more space which means much more effective payload. Not to mention the all-composite wing and fuselage design reduces C and D checks, so better operational economics too.

Yes but not all freighter ops mirror passenger ops. For instance, UPS will run an MD-11 domestically from SDF-CLE or SDF-MCO, so on a short run the fuel savings aren't that great. The aircraft acquisition costs musts be factored in. I imagine a 767 GEnx would cost much less than a 788, plus factor in the common type rating and parts. For other more traditional long haul freight operations the 788 probably makes more sense.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3929
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:18 am

DCA350 wrote:
This is interesting.. but considering the A330 kicked the 767's @ss ,leading to Boeing building the 787 I can't see how the passenger 767MAX would be that successful except for the most ardent 767 customers like UA. Delta and AA have already moved on with the NEO and 787. Cargo could be interesting.. Airbus has apparently given up on the A330F, they won't even upgrade it to the highest MTOW of the newest passenger models so a 767FMAX would have the market to itself.


the A330 did NO Such Thing!! How many were replacements FOR 767's?? /give it a Break will you?
 
JustSomeDood
Posts: 379
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:05 am

Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:21 am

Lufthansa wrote:
The whole article was just clickbait.

The reality is, if they attempted this and there was interest, Airbus just discounts the A330-800
like no tomorrow and sweeps in and gets a lot of the orders, and gets the delivered faster.
Yes, a re engined 767-400 would probably be lighter but unless they can do it really cheap...
and keep a lot of the old systems the same its pointless. In terms of a freighter the 338 will be
able to lift more, and in terms of pax the only carrier this makes sense for is UA. So upgrades will
have to be minimal. Basically accomodating new engines and updating the cabin.

And I agree with the others. If they're going to do this, then it should be 763 sized, not 764.
The A332 whipped the 764's butt once and the 338 could do it to a re engined one if sold dirt
cheap but I suspect given the operating costs won't be that much lower, its the A321XLR that will
win out here. It probably already has.


Unless Airbus is willing to snip some wingspan off the hypothetical A338F it's competing on the back foot vs the hypothetical 767-XF simply because the latter's wingspan allows it to slot in to existing 767F/MD-11F spaces, a dang important factor to UPS/Fedex/DHL/Amazon. Whether that niche is worth a re-engine is another story..
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 1476
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:25 am

ODwyerPW wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
Yes the 764 wings will be used, except the winglets will be adjusted to keep the 763 wingspan. The bigger gear will make a difference.


Why is the greater 764 wingspan an issue? It doesn't really have to worry about gate space does it? (I'm asking, not being critical... I honestly don't know if that is an issue or not). It must improve the plane or it would not have been added. What are the negatives?


The freight outfits often are at congested airports, just like passenger planes.

For UPS and similar package operators having the wingspan of 170' -4" for the 764 is a lot wider than the 156'-1" of the 763, 10% more. So at a hub serving 60 stands sized for the 763 now means only 55 764's, but what is worse on layout of 5 stands between taxiways now only fits 4. Jumping up to the A330 is worse as it is 198' so at a 60 stand 767 hub could at best fit 47 A330's. The 5 stands between taxiways doesn't quite fit 4, a 4 stand fits just 3.

The shorter the flight the less penalty for having higher wing loading. For freighters it is often the maximum landing weight that controls. The fuel load probably doesn't take it to MTOW of the 763. The decisions in the trade study will make the choices on the wingspan. The 748 did increase span a bit. The 764 does just fit in a Code D gate so it might be OK as the stands would have been laid out for the Code sizes.
 
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AirCal737
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:29 am

There is another problem.
764 empty weight 103T (I assume 108T-110T after engine, wing and gear upgrades)
788 empty weight 119T
338 empty weight 128T
It won't have the range to march the 788 and 338 though, but I doubt it will have serious CASM advantage on the mid and short range sector
 
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AirCal737
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:34 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
ODwyerPW wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
Yes the 764 wings will be used, except the winglets will be adjusted to keep the 763 wingspan. The bigger gear will make a difference.


Why is the greater 764 wingspan an issue? It doesn't really have to worry about gate space does it? (I'm asking, not being critical... I honestly don't know if that is an issue or not). It must improve the plane or it would not have been added. What are the negatives?


The freight outfits often are at congested airports, just like passenger planes.

For UPS and similar package operators having the wingspan of 170' -4" for the 764 is a lot wider than the 156'-1" of the 763, 10% more. So at a hub serving 60 stands sized for the 763 now means only 55 764's, but what is worse on layout of 5 stands between taxiways now only fits 4. Jumping up to the A330 is worse as it is 198' so at a 60 stand 767 hub could at best fit 47 A330's. The 5 stands between taxiways doesn't quite fit 4, a 4 stand fits just 3.

The shorter the flight the less penalty for having higher wing loading. For freighters it is often the maximum landing weight that controls. The fuel load probably doesn't take it to MTOW of the 763. The decisions in the trade study will make the choices on the wingspan. The 748 did increase span a bit. The 764 does just fit in a Code D gate so it might be OK as the stands would have been laid out for the Code sizes.

The 764 raked wingtip was out BEFORE the wingleted 763.
Techically raked wingtip is better but what we're looking at is a large, mature blended winglet vs. first gen raked wingtip.
How will they stack up against each other?
Maybe the winglet will at least be an option here?
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:50 am

Absolute fake news..

The 767-400ER can't easily be turned into a freighter. A high max landing weight is the most important feature of a freighter. This is what determines the maximum payload and the 767-400ER has a very low payload for its size. The original 767F got much stronger parts including landing gear to give it a high landing weight, this is why the 767F is still selling extremely well. These stronger parts formed the basis of the 767-400ER.

A freighter based on the 767-400ER fuselage length would need to be strengthened and have a landing gear as large as the 787-8. The 767-400F would need the same landing weight of the 787-8 just to match the payload of the original 767F.

Turning it into a passenger version is equally stupid. The fuselage is too wide for 7ab with lots of extra drag and too narrow for 8ab. New engines would give a 15-20% range improvement over the current 767-400ER. A range over 6500nm is getting really close to the 787-8.

People suggesting they will widen inside the cabin like the 777X to fit 8ab seating is really crazy. The genX is also much bigger. Also the original plan for the 767NEO floated around 5 years ago was to fit the smaller genX used on the 747-8. This engine has the bleed air and physically has the ground clearance. It was goinf to be derated slightly.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:05 am

Depends, for FedEX or Amazon volume is more imporant than payload, so a 400 would work for them. Others could take the 300 fuselage length. Imho this is a sign of the huge success the MoM will have had, so much that they need an extra model to supply the freighter market as neither 787, 777 nor 797 will have the slots available to do freighters. This is amazing news.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:38 am

Revelation wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
PhilMcCrackin wrote:
The freighter market makes sense as it doesn't have any direct Boeing competition for such a thing.

If there is no competition for the 767F - which is quite true IMHO - why would Boeing even bother with this upgrade? They've proven that the existing 767F still sells well, although production rates remain far below other widebodies.

As mentioned above, Airbus is showing A332F and potential A339F plus stretch to UPS.

How long does one really expect airlines to stay happy buying CF6s?

As long as Boeing continues to offer them. Boeing has no reason to be afraid of the A332F. It sold a grand total of 42 jets against 223 new 767-300F and a smaller but comparable number of 767 passenger conversions. On top of that, Boeing sold 230 new 777F. That's < 9% marketshare for Airbus.

Boeing's own outlook for new freighters doesn't indicate a huge demand for new aircraft. If we split this between the 777F and 767F only, the production rate would be ~25 per year, each.
Image
 
Arion640
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:10 am

The bigger question is, apart from United, who’s going to buy it?
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Noshow
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:18 am

Use new built 767 as a freighter? Maybe.
Use USAF mods for some commercial spinoff? Maybe.
Stretch it to 767-400 length as package freighter? Maybe (ask Amazon first).
Use 787-engines to power the old 767? Never ever.

This story doesn't make sense today. There will be plenty of old A330 and 777-300ER on the market ready for freighter conversion.
Otherwise it might be time to design a 787 freighter version.
Last edited by Noshow on Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Jefford717
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:44 am

If Boeing can keep the cost under control, putting the GEnX on a 767-400 for both freighter and passenger makes sense because the R&D of the engine, tooling and newer cabin are already paid for. With updated cabin similar to those from 777x, lower cabin altitude and wider cabin via wall thinning-767 @ 8 abreast Y is as comfortable (if not more) than 777 @ 10ab Y or 787 @ 9ab Y. I’ll take it any day over [email protected] Y or [email protected] Y.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:02 am

Didn't I read somewhere that production of elements specific to PAX 767s have been stopped long ago, suppliers scrapped their lines etc ?

The cargo (and military) one is still in production, so that would just be a reengine of those, but the PAX is another story.

I would also wonder if grandfathering the 767 PAX would be so easy, after the MAX debacle.

I also think selling MAXed 767 to the public would be a marketing nightmare, how do you justify going back to 70's tech ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:24 am

The same as you justify 1980ies tech with the NEOs. And production of parts can be restarted if needed.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:55 am

Great thread. Wish we had more threads like this again :-)

seahawk wrote:
Imho this is a sign of the huge success the MoM will have had, so much that they need an extra model to supply the freighter market as neither 787, 777 nor 797 will have the slots available to do freighters.

??? Your English is better than mine, so I am not trying to be picky but just trying to understand: what do you mean with „will have had“? I guess you didn’t mean „would have had“.... :-/
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:56 am

Boeing should go full modern and built some mini-787 as their next narrowbody. 747-8, 777-9, MAX all end up being not an entirely, fully modern aircraft. You can warm things over but not several times. New is more expensive but more capable and will last longer.

There has been so much progress in aircraft design and manufaturing it just needs to be harvested. Boeing has the knowledge to do it.
 
DCA350
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:20 am

strfyr51 wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
This is interesting.. but considering the A330 kicked the 767's @ss ,leading to Boeing building the 787 I can't see how the passenger 767MAX would be that successful except for the most ardent 767 customers like UA. Delta and AA have already moved on with the NEO and 787. Cargo could be interesting.. Airbus has apparently given up on the A330F, they won't even upgrade it to the highest MTOW of the newest passenger models so a 767FMAX would have the market to itself.


the A330 did NO Such Thing!! How many were replacements FOR 767's?? /give it a Break will you?


Huh?? The facts were that 767s weren't selling vs the A330 any metric will tell you that. Why else would BA invest 10s of Billions on a replacement in the same size bracket.

What does replacement orders have to do with anything. The 777W destroyed the A346 even though not one airline that has purchased the A346 replaced their fleet with 777Ws. Market share dictates who's winning a head to head.. the last 767 variant sold what under 40 units?
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:34 am

Image
KC-46A cockpit

Image
767-400ER cockpit

A lot of development work has been done. Boeing would discuss with 767 key customers what would be the best way forward. Commonality versus latests greatests. Although good commonality would be a big Plus for the AFRC / NG tanker squadrons too,

Ge tested the water for a GENX 767 already years ago. I remeber Farnbourough around 2005? The GP7000 was to power the 400ERX in the late nineties. 9-11 Killed that business case, when key customers UA, AA went into survival mode.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Boeingphan
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:25 pm

This seems like another lost opportunity from Boeing. The max was warmed over soup when it launched, and this feels much the same. They seem to be very reactionary in their decision making of late and I'm not sure what it's tied to. Thinking forward to this concept they need to extend the gear to make this plan work it begs the question why Boeing keeps falling short on this front. One of the major shortcomings of the 737 was the landing gear. Now we are talking about the 767 legs not being long enough. The clean sheet 787 seems like another candidate for short legs when they decided to reengine that plane it'll be a talking point. It's not all doom and gloom but i'd think the leadership at Boeing in the last 7 years is suspect at best and the bean counters have a larger say in decision making, and its not for the better.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:40 pm

Devilfish wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Easy on those victory laps, my friend.

I guess you didn't notice the "seems" in boldface. :wink2:

Thank you for giving me the clue.

AirCal737 wrote:
The 764 raked wingtip was out BEFORE the wingleted 763.
Techically raked wingtip is better but what we're looking at is a large, mature blended winglet vs. first gen raked wingtip.
How will they stack up against each other?
Maybe the winglet will at least be an option here?

Very good point.
When gate spacing is a priority, you use the winglet.
787-3 had winglets because it was required to fit into 767 gates.
787-8 had raked wingtips because it did not.

RJMAZ wrote:
Absolute fake news..

Slow news day.

Aesma wrote:
Didn't I read somewhere that production of elements specific to PAX 767s have been stopped long ago, suppliers scrapped their lines etc ?

We know the 767 pax was withdrawn from the product catalog.
Yet we know Boeing did consider a "767MAX" relaunch two years ago.
That suggests the path to restart isn't terribly bad.
Ref: https://leehamnews.com/2017/10/19/boein ... nger-line/

Aesma wrote:
I would also wonder if grandfathering the 767 PAX would be so easy, after the MAX debacle.

No, grandfathering the 767 raises no issues but grandfathering the 777 raises tremendous issues, worthy of their own thread.

Aesma wrote:
I also think selling MAXed 767 to the public would be a marketing nightmare, how do you justify going back to 70's tech ?

They won't care.
Come up with some vacuous marketing name (MillenialLiner?) price the seats cheap and they'll love it.
Heck, with enough spin, that 70s tech will attract the hipsters too.
"Good enough for grandpa, good enough for me!"
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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NorthTexAAs
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Re: Boeing examines GEnX powered 767

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:49 pm

Aesma wrote:
Didn't I read somewhere that production of elements specific to PAX 767s have been stopped long ago, suppliers scrapped their lines etc ?

The cargo (and military) one is still in production, so that would just be a reengine of those, but the PAX is another story.


True, that's one of the reasons it's challenging to sell incremental passenger 767s even though the aircraft remains in production. However, presumably the overhead bin and galley vendors of the world could support a continuous passenger line if Boeing were willing to place P/Os for enough shipsets of that kind of stuff.
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