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LAXintl
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Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:04 pm

Founder and chairman of ALC Steven Udvar-Hazy says Boeing is planning a B737 MAX-9ER version.

Overall he believes the airframe manufacturers are starting to understand that there is a growing segment where narrowbodies will become preferable for flights upwards 8-hours allowing operators to avoid the complexity and cost associated with widebodies.

https://atwonline.com/aircraft-engines/ ... rrowbodies

Imo such aircraft would be suitable for both full-service carriers seeking more spokes from their hubs, and LCCs looking at fleet simplification and low trip cost.
Last edited by LAXintl on Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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gatibosgru
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:05 pm

Good option for 737/MAX operators to not order the NEO LR/XLR
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ikolkyo
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:06 pm

Sounds like a MAX 9 with the -10 landing gear and likely higher MTOW. That’d be my initial guess of what such an aircraft would be.
 
moyangmm
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:19 pm

That would be an A321/LR killer, similar range, but significantly more efficient. It wouldn't be as capable as XLR though. Still, many would be interested because of its superior fuel burn.
Last edited by moyangmm on Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:19 pm

Complexity?! What, pallet-loading? I'm sure these can be fuel-efficient. I'm sure these can be efficient to manufacture, right alongside existing narrowbodies instead of a separate NMA line. But they make me nostalgic for 1983-era UA 762s when there was some open space above my head and shoulders.
 
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:22 pm

Never more than 3 hours in a 737 fuselage. Cannot shrink my shoulders. Maybe if they do it 2+3 I will change my mind
 
FabienA380
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:28 pm

That's looking decades ahead. Let's first take the -8 out of sleep and the -7 into service, that alone will take years.
 
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:33 pm

moyangmm wrote:
That would be an A321/LR killer, similar range, but significantly more efficient. It wouldn't be as capable as XLR though. Still, many would be interested because of its superior fuel burn.


:lol:

Thats what people said about the 737-900ER vs the A321. And the 737-9 vs A321NEO. And 737-10 vs A321NEO. And now this? It is laughable to suggest that this frankenstein of a monstrosity is ever going to surpass an A321.
 
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:36 pm

moyangmm wrote:
That would be an A321/LR killer, similar range, but significantly more efficient. It wouldn't be as capable as XLR though. Still, many would be interested because of its superior fuel burn.


Simply wrong.
 
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:37 pm

Never more than 3 hours in a 737 fuselage. Cannot shrink my shoulders. Maybe if they do it 2+3 I will change my mind


It's fine in first class! ;)
 
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:43 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
Never more than 3 hours in a 737 fuselage. Cannot shrink my shoulders. Maybe if they do it 2+3 I will change my mind


Exact same cabin as a 757.
 
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:44 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
Never more than 3 hours in a 737 fuselage. Cannot shrink my shoulders. Maybe if they do it 2+3 I will change my mind

I just did DEN-KEF-DEN this week on the 757 (same fuselage dimensions). It wasn't bad at all... but I also had an empty seat next to me both ways.
 
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:49 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Founder and chairman of ALC Steven Udvar-Hazy says Boeing is planning a B737 MAX-9ER version.


I'm sorry but I believe it is time for an end to making mods to the 737 and calling it a new plane. I'm as big a fan of Boeing as the next guy but its time for a clean sheet on the table to design a new replacement aircraft for the 737. They altered the 737 on the last go around and discovered that the newer bigger engines had to be relocated to deal with newer issues. Then they had to add software to compensate for another issue. Well we know how well that worked out. Again I'm not sitting here knocking Boeing so set that aside. What I'm stating is there comes a time when you need to start over from scratch. Just my 13 cents. Thanks for reading............
 
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:52 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
Never more than 3 hours in a 737 fuselage. Cannot shrink my shoulders. Maybe if they do it 2+3 I will change my mind

N)
Exact same cabin as a 757.


Er, no the floor is in a different location in the tube. Taller lower lobe among other things.
Last edited by arcticcruiser on Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Antarius
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:52 pm

moyangmm wrote:
That would be an A321/LR killer, similar range, but significantly more efficient. It wouldn't be as capable as XLR though. Still, many would be interested because of its superior fuel burn.


No it won't. People will buy it, and the duopoly will continue.
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:58 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Complexity?! What, pallet-loading?


For an airline like FR or WN, complexity in the form of having to add a new type to the fleet that has significant limitations on what airports it can serve and what routes it will be profitable.
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:06 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
Er, no the floor is in a different location in the tube. Taller lower lobe among other things.


The cabin internal measurements for the 737 and 757 (and for that matter the 707 and 727) are identical to within 1mm according to the ACAP documents for both types. The fuselages are different below the cabin floor.
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ODwyerPW
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:07 pm

What's the goal? 200pax single-class at 32/33"pitch, 4000nmi? 168 Y, 12F for 180pax total, 4100nmi? 10 gear to help take-off performance since it will tanker so much more fuel (and weigh more)?

The article is behind a paywall so I can't read the specifics.

It's interesting.. the initial 900 didn't sell well because of a few design shortcomings... later exit row problem fixed, range extended.. and the 900ER did much better!
Now we have the MAX9, that again hasn't done well (release of 10 is testimony to that)…. later.. range extended, take-off performance addressed... and perhaps the MAX9ER will do much better.
Last edited by ODwyerPW on Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lightsaber
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:07 pm

From the OP link“Widebodies are complex and expensive.”

Simplifying the fleet is a virtue. For LCCs, a simple long haul expansion, in a fairly high density, would sell.

For those complaining, but MINT or an equivalent seat.

Due to the huge lead times for design, build, and certification, now is the time to start for 2023 EIS.

ikolkyo wrote:
Sounds like a MAX 9 with the -10 landing gear and likely higher MTOW. That’d be my initial guess of what such an aircraft would be.

I've been waiting for that offering.

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oschkosch
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:08 pm

what does the ER stand for? Extra Risk? ;)

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ewt340
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:21 pm

So, less capable A321XLR. With less range and less passengers?
 
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:25 pm

moyangmm wrote:
That would be an A321/LR killer, similar range, but significantly more efficient. It wouldn't be as capable as XLR though. Still, many would be interested because of its superior fuel burn.


To be fair, they dont burn much fuel in the carparks of Seattle.
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:28 pm

That's all very well and very optimistic for Boeing but shouldn't they solve the MAX-issue first before they start making plans about ER versions etc..? I mean they still have no idea when the MAX will be SAFE to fly again..Every 2-3 months,it gets pushed to a new date by another 2-4 months...
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:29 pm

[quote="oschkosch"]what does the ER stand for? Extra Risk? ;)

:lol: Dying.

But seriously. If you're a full-service airline (with few exceptions), you're probably not going to want to use a 7M9ER across the Atlantic or on longhaul. When you get up into those stage lengths, these days, more and more airlines are returning to 3-class (or even 4-class) cabins with J/W/Y+/Y...and if you don't offer W, your product on a hypothetical 7M9ER looks inconsistent with the remainder of your longhaul fleet (I'm looking at you, AC).

But what would an honest W product, such as WT+, Premium+, or Premium Select look like on a narrowbody? Either you'd have to go the route that DL did on the 75H (and not offer J and thus risk losing those travelers) or you offer a Mint-style J, then a DL-style W, and regular Y, at which point you run the risk of there being too few seats that weigh too much for the jet to make a profit.

If anything, it's just another ringing endorsement for NMA, IMO.
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:30 pm

It’s because with the drain on finances at Boeing (viz 737 max) that NMA is effectively dead.

Hence the need to eke more out of the 767 and 737 while NSA becomes a priority.
 
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:30 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
That's all very well and very optimistic for Boeing but shouldn't they solve the MAX-issue first before they start making plans about ER versions etc..? I mean they still have no idea when the MAX will be SAFE to fly again..Every 2-3 months,it gets pushed to a new date by another 2-4 months...


Considering they're a giant company, one would assume every single person working there isnt working on the same thing all the time.

The MAX is in testing, so there's no reason the commerical and design teams can't start thinking about something else.
Last edited by Antarius on Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:30 pm

oschkosch wrote:
what does the ER stand for? Extra Risk? ;)

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:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

But seriously, Boeing should get the MAX in the air again, before thinking about new versions.

I must admit, though, it is intreging, I always though the -9 would fade away into history and the -8M and -10M would remain. This might give it a new lease of life.
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:31 pm

ewt340 wrote:
So, less capable A321XLR. With less range and less passengers?


Or another way to look at it... with the 10's cantilevered gear, a Boeing single isle 200+ pax plane that can confidently take-off, un-restricted, out of Midway, JohnWayne, Hobby offered to existing 737 operators? a Boeing single isle 200+ pax plane that can make meaningful North to South America connectons confidently, offered to existing 737 operators?

Lots depends on the MAX rts. We'll see.
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:36 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
Never more than 3 hours in a 737 fuselage. Cannot shrink my shoulders. Maybe if they do it 2+3 I will change my mind


Right, because there's so much more shoulder space in Y on a widebody.
 
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:41 pm

Would seem to be a good idea not so much to gain customers, but to retain existing 737 customers. There's some meat on the MAX-9 bone now that the -10 improvements are available.
 
Antarius
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:44 pm

oschkosch wrote:
what does the ER stand for? Extra Risk? ;)

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:rotfl:

Hopefully they offer the LR (Low Risk) version too!
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:47 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
Never more than 3 hours in a 737 fuselage. Cannot shrink my shoulders. Maybe if they do it 2+3 I will change my mind


i mean what about a 757? or a 777? most airlines have very similar seat widths across the board.
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patrickjp93
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:56 pm

KarlB737 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Founder and chairman of ALC Steven Udvar-Hazy says Boeing is planning a B737 MAX-9ER version.


I'm sorry but I believe it is time for an end to making mods to the 737 and calling it a new plane. I'm as big a fan of Boeing as the next guy but its time for a clean sheet on the table to design a new replacement aircraft for the 737. They altered the 737 on the last go around and discovered that the newer bigger engines had to be relocated to deal with newer issues. Then they had to add software to compensate for another issue. Well we know how well that worked out. Again I'm not sitting here knocking Boeing so set that aside. What I'm stating is there comes a time when you need to start over from scratch. Just my 13 cents. Thanks for reading............

Nah, we have AT LEAST 3 more iterations to go. Next step is a composite supercritical wing, then full-time telescoping landing gear so we can fit even bigger engines and just leave them extended EXCEPT for an evacuation scenario (which would have the engines touch the ground, but not bear weight), and then 1 more for good measure and good luck to make it lucky #7.
 
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:58 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
Never more than 3 hours in a 737 fuselage. Cannot shrink my shoulders. Maybe if they do it 2+3 I will change my mind


Right, because there's so much more shoulder space in Y on a widebody.

Well, on a 787 there's less, a 10-abreast 777-300 even less, but there's more on an A350 and much more on a 777-200 and a ridiculous 20" across for a 9-abreast 777-300.
 
VS11
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:07 pm

Boeing has needed a response for the popular A321NEO/LR/XLR for some time now. If this is it, it is better than nothing.
 
Sooner787
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:27 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
Good option for 737/MAX operators to not order the NEO LR/XLR


I could see Southwest and United for starters being interested.... maybe Alaska as well.
 
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:30 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
Good option for 737/MAX operators to not order the NEO LR/XLR


I could see Southwest and United for starters being interested.... maybe Alaska as well.


Could be great for United out of EWR.
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md11sdf
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:31 pm

At this point, maybe Boeing should just develop SOMETHING NEW and, after FIFTY YEARS, close the 737 line...
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TMccrury
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:31 pm

I done 7.5 hours on a 757 from MIA to LPB in "comfort plus" aisle seat. It was ok but not something I would want to do much of. Granted then, I weight 95 pounds more than I do now still, I have trouble on 7 hour flights. I'm starting to look at minimum economy plus or whatever the offering happens to be.
 
fcogafa
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:37 pm

With this and the 767 news it does sound like a two aircraft '797' alternative is being considered. With the backlog of the A321 getting longer and the its delivery delays, a 737 alternative sounds a good plan.
Last edited by fcogafa on Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Boeingphan
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:38 pm

Enough is enough with the 737. Boeing literally and figuratively run it into the ground. NSA is whats needed yet they keep trotting out the old tattered vet and sprinkle a little shine on it.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:39 pm

Boeingphan wrote:
Enough is enough with the 737. Boeing literally and figuratively run it into the ground. NSA is whats needed yet they keep trotting out the old tattered vet and sprinkle a little shine on it.


Make$ $en$e though. Clean sheets aren't cheap.
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DDR
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:50 pm

Boeingphan wrote:
Enough is enough with the 737. Boeing literally and figuratively run it into the ground. NSA is whats needed yet they keep trotting out the old tattered vet and sprinkle a little shine on it.


I agree. I'm sure there are even people at Boeing that, after the MAX debacle, are thinking the same thing.

If Boeing had just bit the bullet years ago and raised the damned landing gear, they would have avoided many of the problems they are facing today.
 
UA444
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:01 pm

Boeing’s microwave is working great up in Seattle apparently
 
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:27 pm

fcogafa wrote:
With this and the 767 news it does sound like a two aircraft '797' alternative is being considered. With the backlog of the A321 getting longer and the its delivery delays, a 737 alternative sounds a good plan.


I have to admit that this was the first thought that went through my mind.

Accepting that both proposals are currently speculation, a 767-400 NEO, and 737-9ER would mean that NMA will have become history.

Certainly a cheaper solution than an all-new widebody when the business case is so marginal

Rgds
 
Antarius
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:30 pm

md11sdf wrote:
At this point, maybe Boeing should just develop SOMETHING NEW and, after FIFTY YEARS, close the 737 line...


The 320 series is 30 years old. The 767 is closing in on 40.

So, are we arbitrarily drawing a line at 50? Why can't the above be closed out too?
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tphuang
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:39 pm

Seems like bad idea. A220xlr would have similar casm and fewer seat to fill. A321xlr will have range advantage. Didn't they find 738 to be the best aircraft to extend range? I guess it's casm isn't competitive enough.

It does fill like Boeing would only think of launching such a program of it thinks nma case is weak.
Last edited by tphuang on Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
highflier92660
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:40 pm

Eight hours crawling along at .78 Mach. There will undoubtedly be a gross weight increase which adds to more curvature-of-the-Earth takeoffs and an initial altitude of around FL 310.

When is a CEO at Boeing going to have the courage of initiating a clean-sheet aircraft?
 
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ODwyerPW
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:48 pm

highflier92660 wrote:
When is a CEO at Boeing going to have the courage of initiating a clean-sheet aircraft?


When the board of directors permits it.
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Kikko19
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Re: Udvar-Hazy: Boeing planning a B737 MAX 9ER

Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:04 pm

patrickjp93 wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
Kikko19 wrote:
Never more than 3 hours in a 737 fuselage. Cannot shrink my shoulders. Maybe if they do it 2+3 I will change my mind


Right, because there's so much more shoulder space in Y on a widebody.

Well, on a 787 there's less, a 10-abreast 777-300 even less, but there's more on an A350 and much more on a 777-200 and a ridiculous 20" across for a 9-abreast 777-300.

Well a32x is better, a330 8 abreast even better for long ones . A220 the best for short hops. Even crj900 is better than 737 :). Cannot find worse can than that... Oh wait the 777 10x is even worse!

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Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos