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rnav2dlrey
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Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:52 pm

Of course this news is dropped on a Friday:

Boeing's board stripped CEO Dennis Muilenburg of his dual role as chairman following two deadly crashes of its 737 MAX jet.

David Calhoun, a private equity executive who has been the board's lead director, will become its chairman, the company said.


https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-str ... 1570833244
 
m007j
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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:58 pm

And after the market closed too, to keep the trade news propping up the market for just that big longer.

If they really wanted to send a message, they should have elevated Giambastini instead of Calhoun. I can't see anything good coming from a CEO now having to answer to a private equity exec while trying to rebuild a safety culture over profit.

Or is this the death knell of Muilenburg's time as CEO?
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:01 pm

A public corporation should not have this dual role, it is inherently a conflict of interest.
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patrickjp93
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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:09 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
A public corporation should not have this dual role, it is inherently a conflict of interest.

Two sides of the same coin. Better to have an engineer as chairman of the board in terms of trying to keep safety a top focus rather than answering to a board of pure financiers from the Goldman Sachs School. That conflict of interest is only problematic if you're one of the financiers on the board, and frankly, for the flying public, you can shove that COI where the Sun don't shine.
 
Antarius
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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:14 pm

patrickjp93 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
A public corporation should not have this dual role, it is inherently a conflict of interest.

Two sides of the same coin. Better to have an engineer as chairman of the board in terms of trying to keep safety a top focus rather than answering to a board of pure financiers from the Goldman Sachs School. That conflict of interest is only problematic if you're one of the financiers on the board, and frankly, for the flying public, you can shove that COI where the Sun don't shine.


still doesnt need to be the CEO. This is similar to the auditors and the consultants being the same people - the same person cannot hold themselves accountable.
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patrickjp93
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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:23 pm

Antarius wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
A public corporation should not have this dual role, it is inherently a conflict of interest.

Two sides of the same coin. Better to have an engineer as chairman of the board in terms of trying to keep safety a top focus rather than answering to a board of pure financiers from the Goldman Sachs School. That conflict of interest is only problematic if you're one of the financiers on the board, and frankly, for the flying public, you can shove that COI where the Sun don't shine.


still doesnt need to be the CEO. This is similar to the auditors and the consultants being the same people - the same person cannot hold themselves accountable.

In this particular case I think the flying public could let that COI (which advocates in their favor) slide. Boeing needs someone with greater engineering focus on the BOD. That it was the CEO hardly matters. He was still outnumbered immensely. It's not nearly the COI that would be represented by, say, having VA's Scurrah in his position. He'd be rewarded for slashing and burning and to Hell with the consequences as voted in by himself.

I agree on the auditors vs. consultants in principle, but in reality auditors in general are ridiculously useless and easy to fool.
 
itchief
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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:43 pm

patrickjp93 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
Two sides of the same coin. Better to have an engineer as chairman of the board in terms of trying to keep safety a top focus rather than answering to a board of pure financiers from the Goldman Sachs School. That conflict of interest is only problematic if you're one of the financiers on the board, and frankly, for the flying public, you can shove that COI where the Sun don't shine.


still doesnt need to be the CEO. This is similar to the auditors and the consultants being the same people - the same person cannot hold themselves accountable.

In this particular case I think the flying public could let that COI (which advocates in their favor) slide. Boeing needs someone with greater engineering focus on the BOD. That it was the CEO hardly matters. He was still outnumbered immensely. It's not nearly the COI that would be represented by, say, having VA's Scurrah in his position. He'd be rewarded for slashing and burning and to Hell with the consequences as voted in by himself.

I agree on the auditors vs. consultants in principle, but in reality auditors in general are ridiculously useless and easy to fool.


Does Giambastiani not count as an engineer, he is a Nuclear Engineer with a 37 year career in the United States Navy.
 
patrickjp93
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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:47 pm

itchief wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
Antarius wrote:

still doesnt need to be the CEO. This is similar to the auditors and the consultants being the same people - the same person cannot hold themselves accountable.

In this particular case I think the flying public could let that COI (which advocates in their favor) slide. Boeing needs someone with greater engineering focus on the BOD. That it was the CEO hardly matters. He was still outnumbered immensely. It's not nearly the COI that would be represented by, say, having VA's Scurrah in his position. He'd be rewarded for slashing and burning and to Hell with the consequences as voted in by himself.

I agree on the auditors vs. consultants in principle, but in reality auditors in general are ridiculously useless and easy to fool.


Does Giambastiani not count as an engineer, he is a Nuclear Engineer with a 37 year career in the United States Navy.

A) He's been out of the game and instead been helping Lockheed siphon money for 12 years
B) In principle, sure, he does, and that's why they didn't name him Chairman and instead went with a financier.
 
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Aesma
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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:10 am

I'm no financial guru but weakening someone that is still the CEO doesn't look too good, might as well have replaced him !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
jfk777
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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:13 am

The CEO should have been replaced as this disaster happened on his watch. He has shown he doesn't have a clue in plane certifications or crisis management.
 
patrickjp93
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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:24 am

jfk777 wrote:
The CEO should have been replaced as this disaster happened on his watch. He has shown he doesn't have a clue in plane certifications or crisis management.

And your comment proves you don't have much grasp of the situation. The MAX was NOT certified under Muilenburg's watch. He was on the 777X program before being made CEO and did not oversee that certification.

This is why asking for exec heads to roll is often a dangerous and pointless response. Chances are it's the middle and mid-upper management still around that's responsible, not the "strategists" at the top of the company.
 
Antarius
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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:24 am

Aesma wrote:
I'm no financial guru but weakening someone that is still the CEO doesn't look too good, might as well have replaced him !


Eh. I mean, it's weakening in the sense that he cant fight a board vote against himself. But his day to day and overall board mandate hasnt changed.
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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:26 am

jfk777 wrote:
The CEO should have been replaced as this disaster happened on his watch. He has shown he doesn't have a clue in plane certifications or crisis management.

Accountability here is tricky, because many of the executives responsible for the screwups that led to the 737MAX, are long-gone from Boeing.

That said, it's true that the current team hasn't handled the disaster that they were handed very well, and it's quickly becoming their baby now.... and this is clearly a warning-shot to Muilenburg that if he doesn't get the cashcow back on her feet, then the Board won't hesitate to sack him in favor of somebody who can.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
strfyr51
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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:28 am

While I may not agree that Boeing should be Led By a Money Guy and a Non-Engineer? Somebody Had to lose their Head in this 737 fiasco Because it didn't have to happen and it was a Fast Buck artist Move. They did the exactly LEAST they could do in engineering the MCAS system, Any Decent Aircraft systems engineer would have installed redundancy over safeguards to insure the system would NOT have caused a crash!! The fact that they made the Angle of Attack Indication an OPTION says they were thinking of money over safety. If Mullenburg agreed with this with NO Review? Then YES, He should be replaced.. But with a Money Grubber? Not a chance in Hell!!
 
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DL747400
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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:44 am

Sorry folks, but real change at BOEING will not begin until Muilenburg is put out on his ass. Smoke and mirrors. Cosmetics only. Don't be fooled.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
Scotron12
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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:15 am

DL747400 wrote:
Sorry folks, but real change at BOEING will not begin until Muilenburg is put out on his ass. Smoke and mirrors. Cosmetics only. Don't be fooled.


Or more accidents in future whatever the reason!
 
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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:33 am

LAX772LR wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
The CEO should have been replaced as this disaster happened on his watch. He has shown he doesn't have a clue in plane certifications or crisis management.

Accountability here is tricky, because many of the executives responsible for the screwups that led to the 737MAX, are long-gone from Boeing.

That said, it's true that the current team hasn't handled the disaster that they were handed very well, and it's quickly becoming their baby now.... and this is clearly a warning-shot to Muilenburg that if he doesn't get the cashcow back on her feet, then the Board won't hesitate to sack him in favor of somebody who can.


Good points!

Keep in mind that Boeing's defense division does not provide the revenue or profit of Boeing's commercial division. The 737MAX was intended to be Boeing's cash cow and best profit maker, just like the 737NG series was. And yet, this program has been grounded for over 6 months and its return to service is less known today than it was shortly after the March grounding. Throw in the GE9X issues stalling the 777X program and the 787 program sales starting to plateau and I wonder how much longer Wall Street will keep rewarding Boeing in its current state.

Had Mullenberger been more proactive after the Lion Air crash, he should have pushed for a grounding of the 737MAX as soon as the initial FDR data were analyzed. Had this happened, Boeing might have been able to salvage a bit of their reputation, a proper fix could have been implemented and the planes back in service in a few months. But instead, Mullenberger tried to throw Lion Air's pilots & maintenance under the bus instead of waiting to investigate if the faulty MCAS design was actually to blame. Then comes the Ethiopian MAX crash under similar circumstances and the entire world demanded that the 737MAX's be grounded and trust in Boeing ended up in tatters. In short, Dennis should have been sacked soon after the post-Ethiopian crash. But even with this recent Boeing board move, he still keeps the CEO job?!
 
Antarius
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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:12 am

DL747400 wrote:
Sorry folks, but real change at BOEING will not begin until Muilenburg is put out on his ass. Smoke and mirrors. Cosmetics only. Don't be fooled.


a.net keeps acting like Boeing is some collapsing mess. Their market cap is 210 billion. Yes, they screwed up, and yes, having accountability by separating BOD and CEO is good, but it isn't like Eddie Lampert is in charge here.
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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:00 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
The CEO should have been replaced as this disaster happened on his watch. He has shown he doesn't have a clue in plane certifications or crisis management.

Accountability here is tricky, because many of the executives responsible for the screwups that led to the 737MAX, are long-gone from Boeing.

That said, it's true that the current team hasn't handled the disaster that they were handed very well, and it's quickly becoming their baby now.... and this is clearly a warning-shot to Muilenburg that if he doesn't get the cashcow back on her feet, then the Board won't hesitate to sack him in favor of somebody who can.


Good points!

Keep in mind that Boeing's defense division does not provide the revenue or profit of Boeing's commercial division. The 737MAX was intended to be Boeing's cash cow and best profit maker, just like the 737NG series was. And yet, this program has been grounded for over 6 months and its return to service is less known today than it was shortly after the March grounding. Throw in the GE9X issues stalling the 777X program and the 787 program sales starting to plateau and I wonder how much longer Wall Street will keep rewarding Boeing in its current state.

Had Mullenberger been more proactive after the Lion Air crash, he should have pushed for a grounding of the 737MAX as soon as the initial FDR data were analyzed. Had this happened, Boeing might have been able to salvage a bit of their reputation, a proper fix could have been implemented and the planes back in service in a few months. But instead, Mullenberger tried to throw Lion Air's pilots & maintenance under the bus instead of waiting to investigate if the faulty MCAS design was actually to blame. Then comes the Ethiopian MAX crash under similar circumstances and the entire world demanded that the 737MAX's be grounded and trust in Boeing ended up in tatters. In short, Dennis should have been sacked soon after the post-Ethiopian crash. But even with this recent Boeing board move, he still keeps the CEO job?!


Well said
 
ubeema
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:10 am

patrickjp93 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
The CEO should have been replaced as this disaster happened on his watch. He has shown he doesn't have a clue in plane certifications or crisis management.

And your comment proves you don't have much grasp of the situation. The MAX was NOT certified under Muilenburg's watch. He was on the 777X program before being made CEO and did not oversee that certification.

This is why asking for exec heads to roll is often a dangerous and pointless response. Chances are it's the middle and mid-upper management still around that's responsible, not the "strategists" at the top of the company.

jfk777 has a point as shown in this timeline. I cannot pinpoint date Boeing revised MCAS authority after the original design was disclosed to various CAA including FAA:

June 2012 Boeing applied 737 MAX 8 for FAA Type certificate
June 2015 Muilenburg named CEO
March 2016 Muilenburg named Chairman and CEO
Circa 2016 MCAS limits expanded from 0.6 to 2.5 degrees per occurrence (according to Seattle Times reporting)
March 2017 737 MAX 8 earns FAA certification
 
ubeema
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:16 am

patrickjp93 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
The CEO should have been replaced as this disaster happened on his watch. He has shown he doesn't have a clue in plane certifications or crisis management.

And your comment proves you don't have much grasp of the situation. The MAX was NOT certified under Muilenburg's watch. He was on the 777X program before being made CEO and did not oversee that certification.

This is why asking for exec heads to roll is often a dangerous and pointless response. Chances are it's the middle and mid-upper management still around that's responsible, not the "strategists" at the top of the company.


jfk777 has a point as shown in this timeline. I cannot pinpoint date Boeing revised MCAS authority after the original design was disclosed to various CAA including FAA:
August 2011 737 MAX program Launched
June 2012 Boeing applied 737 MAX 8 for FAA Type certificate
June 2015 Muilenburg named CEO
January 2016 First MAX flight
March 2016 Muilenburg named Chairman and CEO
Circa 2016 MCAS limits expanded from 0.6 to 2.5 degrees per occurrence (according to Seattle Times reporting)
March 2017 737 MAX 8 earns FAA certification
May 2017 First MAX 8 delivery
 
USAirKid
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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:21 am

Antarius wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Sorry folks, but real change at BOEING will not begin until Muilenburg is put out on his ass. Smoke and mirrors. Cosmetics only. Don't be fooled.


a.net keeps acting like Boeing is some collapsing mess. Their market cap is 210 billion. Yes, they screwed up, and yes, having accountability by separating BOD and CEO is good, but it isn't like Eddie Lampert is in charge here.


Market Cap isn’t a great predictor. Enron’s market cap at its peak was almost $90 billion in inflation adjusted dollars.
 
ubeema
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:39 am

Looking at most corporate scandals over the years that brought down executives/officers, it is rarely because of mistakes made during the course of business dealing/decision making. The response and reaction (or lack thereof) to unfortunate events is what takes them down. Boeing found itself in this situation because of their dubious response after LionAir crash, and doubled down with an AD now we know was inadequate IMHO irresponsible. Boeing could have acted out of an abundance of caution, after all only they possessed all the pieces of the puzzle but chose not to. If DM and perhaps others end up lose their job over this fiasco it will not be a mistake. The delay so far and the slow steps in the cleaning act are probably part of crisis management, and an effort to safeguard shareholder value (minimize losses).
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:46 am

ubeema wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
The CEO should have been replaced as this disaster happened on his watch. He has shown he doesn't have a clue in plane certifications or crisis management.

And your comment proves you don't have much grasp of the situation. The MAX was NOT certified under Muilenburg's watch. He was on the 777X program before being made CEO and did not oversee that certification.

This is why asking for exec heads to roll is often a dangerous and pointless response. Chances are it's the middle and mid-upper management still around that's responsible, not the "strategists" at the top of the company.


jfk777 has a point as shown in this timeline. I cannot pinpoint date Boeing revised MCAS authority after the original design was disclosed to various CAA including FAA:
August 2011 737 MAX program Launched
June 2012 Boeing applied 737 MAX 8 for FAA Type certificate
June 2015 Muilenburg named CEO
January 2016 First MAX flight
March 2016 Muilenburg named Chairman and CEO
Circa 2016 MCAS limits expanded from 0.6 to 2.5 degrees per occurrence (according to Seattle Times reporting)
March 2017 737 MAX 8 earns FAA certification
May 2017 First MAX 8 delivery



Looks like Dennis was king of the castle when they decided to increase mcas limits to 2,5°. I think he must go.
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
patrickjp93
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:53 am

ubeema wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
The CEO should have been replaced as this disaster happened on his watch. He has shown he doesn't have a clue in plane certifications or crisis management.

And your comment proves you don't have much grasp of the situation. The MAX was NOT certified under Muilenburg's watch. He was on the 777X program before being made CEO and did not oversee that certification.

This is why asking for exec heads to roll is often a dangerous and pointless response. Chances are it's the middle and mid-upper management still around that's responsible, not the "strategists" at the top of the company.


jfk777 has a point as shown in this timeline. I cannot pinpoint date Boeing revised MCAS authority after the original design was disclosed to various CAA including FAA:
August 2011 737 MAX program Launched
June 2012 Boeing applied 737 MAX 8 for FAA Type certificate
June 2015 Muilenburg named CEO
January 2016 First MAX flight
March 2016 Muilenburg named Chairman and CEO
Circa 2016 MCAS limits expanded from 0.6 to 2.5 degrees per occurrence (according to Seattle Times reporting)
March 2017 737 MAX 8 earns FAA certification
May 2017 First MAX 8 delivery


The 2.5 degree range is not consequential here, and we don't have the time for when the MCAS of the MAX was reduced from 2+ AoA sensors to 1. And Circa 2016 isn't definitive. Even if it were May, DM was supposed to read every technical brief, blueprint, and design document in just 2 months? People, align your expectations with reality. It'll be good for your mental health long term.
 
patrickjp93
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:55 am

oschkosch wrote:
ubeema wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
And your comment proves you don't have much grasp of the situation. The MAX was NOT certified under Muilenburg's watch. He was on the 777X program before being made CEO and did not oversee that certification.

This is why asking for exec heads to roll is often a dangerous and pointless response. Chances are it's the middle and mid-upper management still around that's responsible, not the "strategists" at the top of the company.


jfk777 has a point as shown in this timeline. I cannot pinpoint date Boeing revised MCAS authority after the original design was disclosed to various CAA including FAA:
August 2011 737 MAX program Launched
June 2012 Boeing applied 737 MAX 8 for FAA Type certificate
June 2015 Muilenburg named CEO
January 2016 First MAX flight
March 2016 Muilenburg named Chairman and CEO
Circa 2016 MCAS limits expanded from 0.6 to 2.5 degrees per occurrence (according to Seattle Times reporting)
March 2017 737 MAX 8 earns FAA certification
May 2017 First MAX 8 delivery



Looks like Dennis was king of the castle when they decided to increase mcas limits to 2,5°. I think he must go.

That has not been the problematic point of MCAS, and we don't even know which month of 2016 that change went through on. The material point is when was MCAS hamstrung to use only 1 AoA sensor.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:57 am

patrickjp93 wrote:
That has not been the problematic point of MCAS, and we don't even know which month of 2016 that change went through on. The material point is when was MCAS hamstrung to use only 1 AoA sensor.



ahh yes, Boeing changed the degree of mcas influence without informing FAA and it is not problematic?


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:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
patrickjp93
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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:59 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
The CEO should have been replaced as this disaster happened on his watch. He has shown he doesn't have a clue in plane certifications or crisis management.

Accountability here is tricky, because many of the executives responsible for the screwups that led to the 737MAX, are long-gone from Boeing.

That said, it's true that the current team hasn't handled the disaster that they were handed very well, and it's quickly becoming their baby now.... and this is clearly a warning-shot to Muilenburg that if he doesn't get the cashcow back on her feet, then the Board won't hesitate to sack him in favor of somebody who can.


Good points!

Keep in mind that Boeing's defense division does not provide the revenue or profit of Boeing's commercial division. The 737MAX was intended to be Boeing's cash cow and best profit maker, just like the 737NG series was. And yet, this program has been grounded for over 6 months and its return to service is less known today than it was shortly after the March grounding. Throw in the GE9X issues stalling the 777X program and the 787 program sales starting to plateau and I wonder how much longer Wall Street will keep rewarding Boeing in its current state.

Had Mullenberger been more proactive after the Lion Air crash, he should have pushed for a grounding of the 737MAX as soon as the initial FDR data were analyzed. Had this happened, Boeing might have been able to salvage a bit of their reputation, a proper fix could have been implemented and the planes back in service in a few months. But instead, Mullenberger tried to throw Lion Air's pilots & maintenance under the bus instead of waiting to investigate if the faulty MCAS design was actually to blame. Then comes the Ethiopian MAX crash under similar circumstances and the entire world demanded that the 737MAX's be grounded and trust in Boeing ended up in tatters. In short, Dennis should have been sacked soon after the post-Ethiopian crash. But even with this recent Boeing board move, he still keeps the CEO job?!


It's best to leave an engineer who was involved in many other safe, successful projects in as the CEO. If the board were to get a slash and burn happy CEO like Scurrah from Virgian Australia, the entire world would be in an uproar that the BoD is happy to make money even as blood and fire run in the streets. Muilenburg has a sterling reputation, but the office of CEO is one where you walk a nearly invisible tightrope maintaining the balance between shareholder approval, public approval, and internal approval (or, confidence). His handling of the start of this fiasco was not stellar, but we don't know what levers he's pulling on every other project at Boeing currently, so try to keep things in perspective.
 
patrickjp93
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:02 pm

oschkosch wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
That has not been the problematic point of MCAS, and we don't even know which month of 2016 that change went through on. The material point is when was MCAS hamstrung to use only 1 AoA sensor.


ahh yes, Boeing changed the degree of mcas influence without informing FAA and it is not problematic?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk

Not in and of itself. The problem with the MCAS design in the MAX is reliance on one sensor. The extent of Muilenburg's culpability in "being in charge" of the MAX comes down to when that decision to cut that corner was made.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:17 pm

There is no doubt that Boeing had to do some shake up of tip executives due to the 737MAX crises and placate major shareholders. They still need to fire a few other execs, make massive pay cuts of remaining executives until the 737MAX is back in the air safely, make sure sound engineering with safety a priority in the executive ranks. The company board must do what it takes, even if substantial cuts in profits for several years short term, to assure the survival of the company and the many 1000's of jobs it has. Perhaps they need more executives with strong experience in aircraft safety and engineering like from the USAF or a major airline. They need a strong CEO who will restore consumer confidence.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:19 pm

patrickjp93 wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
That has not been the problematic point of MCAS, and we don't even know which month of 2016 that change went through on. The material point is when was MCAS hamstrung to use only 1 AoA sensor.


ahh yes, Boeing changed the degree of mcas influence without informing FAA and it is not problematic?

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Not in and of itself. The problem with the MCAS design in the MAX is reliance on one sensor. The extent of Muilenburg's culpability in "being in charge" of the MAX comes down to when that decision to cut that corner was made.
We have this cool German proverb: the fish usually stinks from the head first.



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patrickjp93
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:23 pm

oschkosch wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
oschkosch wrote:

ahh yes, Boeing changed the degree of mcas influence without informing FAA and it is not problematic?

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Not in and of itself. The problem with the MCAS design in the MAX is reliance on one sensor. The extent of Muilenburg's culpability in "being in charge" of the MAX comes down to when that decision to cut that corner was made.
We have this cool German proverb: the fish usually stinks from the head first.

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That's originally a Russian proverb, and it doesn't apply if the man had no leadership position in the program when the corners were cut. Germans are usually extremely defensive and subservient to upper management in their corporate cultures (that's speaking from eclectic experience and would be echoed by plenty of people working for Munich Re here in the U.S.). Do you just want the head to roll because it's American?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:29 pm

The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission and the New York Stock Exchange each have a number of Board composition requirements but separate Chairman and CEO aren't among them. Boeing has heavy institutional ownership: if they wanted the positions separate they know how to advocate for it. This is a public hand-slap for Muilenburg but it doesn't indicate (or have to be) the end of his Boeing career.

Institutional investors hold a majority ownership of BA through the 68.71% of the outstanding shares that they control. This interest is also higher than at almost any other company in the Aerospace & Defense industry. https://money.cnn.com/quote/shareholder ... titutional

Enron's business growth came from hosing traders in opaque markets. Boeing's business model across military and commercial aircraft is a bit more durable, and that's acknowledged by fairly stable trading volumes. Apart from a week-long spike in trading around the time of the 2nd crash and grounding, volumes and price have been relatively stable.
 
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:44 pm

This announcement could suggest the 737 will be heading back into service shortly.

With the release of the 737 certification report from the international regulators (the last piece of bad news), Boeing are now in a position to start the process of re-building the 737 brand (highlighted by Udvar-Hazy's announcement of a 737-9ER study).

I suspect the news (messaging) to date has focused around the certification process (and fatal errors made by Boeing and the FAA) rather than the plane itself. I suspect Boeing will have a strong platform to promote the 737 (strong safety record, preferred aircraft by many of the worlds airlines, enhanced safety features, new models).

I's suggest this will be the first step in replacing the CEO. I suspect he will be replaced either shortly before or after (probably after) the 737 returns to service. His role will be to ensure a smooth transition to a new management team.

From an outside looking in, I must say I am extremely impressed on how the US regulatory regime dealt with this matter. The media, congress, multiple government agencies and even Boeing themselves were all involved in a process that highlighted the issues with the 737. I think it is fair to say aircraft systems and certification processes will be more thorough in the future. This is good for the industry and more generally the flying public.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:45 pm

patrickjp93 wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
Not in and of itself. The problem with the MCAS design in the MAX is reliance on one sensor. The extent of Muilenburg's culpability in "being in charge" of the MAX comes down to when that decision to cut that corner was made.
We have this cool German proverb: the fish usually stinks from the head first.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk

That's originally a Russian proverb, and it doesn't apply if the man had no leadership position in the program when the corners were cut. Germans are usually extremely defensive and subservient to upper management in their corporate cultures (that's speaking from eclectic experience and would be echoed by plenty of people working for Munich Re here in the U.S.). Do you just want the head to roll because it's American?



lol it doesn't matter where the proverb came from (btw google says it may have been Erasmus who first uttered these words...).

What I am trying to point out is that Boeing requires a fresh "return to service" so to say. And that will only be accomplished with a new team and a new coach. Dennis was in charge of the whole 9 yards. I just refuse to believe that such critical issues with the cash cow of Boeing were unknown to him. They must have briefed him about the issues and necessity to change mcas without informing anybody. And even if they failed to do so (which I doubt) then he should also go, because that means he was not aware of extremely critical changes going on with the top selling plane and therefore the entire safety culture of the company is questionable.

Nothing to do with his nationality...

Winterkorn at VW set an example, he resigned in wake of the diesel scandal.
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ubeema
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:27 pm

patrickjp93 wrote:
The 2.5 degree range is not consequential here, and we don't have the time for when the MCAS of the MAX was reduced from 2+ AoA sensors to 1. And Circa 2016 isn't definitive. Even if it were May, DM was supposed to read every technical brief, blueprint, and design document in just 2 months? People, align your expectations with reality. It'll be good for your mental health long term.

I assumed you have read JATR report released 24 hours ago. So when you say 2.5 degrees is inconsequential, a team of CAA expert highlighted these changes as a finding in the totality of miscues of the certification process. Don’t worry about my health. Worry about yours since you will try to respond to every single post that does not fit your narrative.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:36 pm

ubeema wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
The 2.5 degree range is not consequential here, and we don't have the time for when the MCAS of the MAX was reduced from 2+ AoA sensors to 1. And Circa 2016 isn't definitive. Even if it were May, DM was supposed to read every technical brief, blueprint, and design document in just 2 months? People, align your expectations with reality. It'll be good for your mental health long term.

I assumed you have read JATR report released 24 hours ago. So when you say 2.5 degrees is inconsequential, a team of CAA expert highlighted these changes as a finding in the totality of miscues of the certification process. Don’t worry about my health. Worry about yours since you will try to respond to every single post that does not fit your narrative.

Lets look at things in a different way:
Did CEO knew/endorsed the change of MCAS authority? My bet is "no", this is not CEO level decision. Looks like decision was taken at a much lower level than it should be, without enough of program aware about the change. It is hard to blame the CEO for such change.
You can blame CEO for creating a culture where such change could occur - but again, Muilenburg became the boss when MAX program was running full steam, not that changing program mid-level management (who should "empower" people to make such changes) was part of what he could realistically do.
A few more points could be made, but CEO role would be limited, if any.

What Muilenburg unconditionally owns is the handling of Lion crash, the last point in time where Boeing could make a difference....
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:53 pm

AvWeek ( https://aviationweek.com/commercial-avi ... remain-ceo ) reported:

But industry insiders tell Aviation Week that talk had increased lately about the need to make a change at Boeing. Expectations were for a transition next year – as the MAX issue stemmed from a strategic failure by the company to execute on a key revenue-generating program. Boeing is plagued with other challenges, too, including in its defense and space programs, although none rose to the level of subduing shareholder returns as the MAX has this year.

Boeing will report third-quarter results Oct. 23 and could announce further charges as major airline customers recently pushed out their own return-to-service expectations for the MAX to January. The Chicago company already has unveiled billions of dollars of charges to its earnings due to the troubled narrowbody.

IMO it's a matter of when not if there will be a new CEO at Boeing.

One part of the CEO's extremely generous compensation package is you may need to be the fall guy when something goes really badly.

We've gone beyond really badly with regard to MAX.

IMO taking away the chairmanship is a sign that they are preparing for a transition.

You would not be weakening an executive you expect to keep.
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:30 pm

Revelation wrote:
IMO it's a matter of when not if there will be a new CEO at Boeing.

One part of the CEO's extremely generous compensation package is you may need to be the fall guy when something goes really badly.

We've gone beyond really badly with regard to MAX.

IMO taking away the chairmanship is a sign that they are preparing for a transition.

You would not be weakening an executive you expect to keep.


Or one can look at it as he is not in danger, and the loss of chairman status is the public "punishment" for the MAX to pacify stakeholders.

I would hope we've moved beyond sacrificial CEO changes, but maybe we haven't.
 
moa999
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:10 am

I've never quite understood the US concept of having someone as dual Chair and CEO. Seems to invest too much power in one person.

In Australia they are generally separated. The CEO is paid more and is fulltime and very much the front person.
Most Chairs (and other Board Members) are part-time and will typically sit on a few Boards.
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:06 am

ubeema wrote:
patrickjp93 wrote:
The 2.5 degree range is not consequential here, and we don't have the time for when the MCAS of the MAX was reduced from 2+ AoA sensors to 1. And Circa 2016 isn't definitive. Even if it were May, DM was supposed to read every technical brief, blueprint, and design document in just 2 months? People, align your expectations with reality. It'll be good for your mental health long term.

I assumed you have read JATR report released 24 hours ago. So when you say 2.5 degrees is inconsequential, a team of CAA expert highlighted these changes as a finding in the totality of miscues of the certification process. Don’t worry about my health. Worry about yours since you will try to respond to every single post that does not fit your narrative.

I think the poster meant inconsequential with respect to responsibility of the CEO.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:43 am

I think good ole Dennis needs to take one for the team and resign.

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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:56 am

Antarius wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Sorry folks, but real change at BOEING will not begin until Muilenburg is put out on his ass. Smoke and mirrors. Cosmetics only. Don't be fooled.


a.net keeps acting like Boeing is some collapsing mess. Their market cap is 210 billion. Yes, they screwed up, and yes, having accountability by separating BOD and CEO is good, but it isn't like Eddie Lampert is in charge here.


People around the world love thrills and Boeing has become the phantasm of the image of the United States decline...

:rotfl:
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Do it! "...
 
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:22 am

In the end Muilenberg will be fired. First the CEO is the fall guy if the s**t really hits the fan and they get paid accordingly. But the whole saga after the grounding just looks bad, from "making a safe plane even safer" to missing one self defined deadline after the other. In addition all problems in the cooperate structure discovered will be linked to him, because making that work is his job.
 
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:04 am

seahawk wrote:
In the end Muilenberg will be fired. First the CEO is the fall guy if the s**t really hits the fan and they get paid accordingly. But the whole saga after the grounding just looks bad, from "making a safe plane even safer" to missing one self defined deadline after the other. In addition all problems in the cooperate structure discovered will be linked to him, because making that work is his job.

Yes, I think the "making a safe plane even safer" statement was tone-deaf and showed he and his team did a terrible job reading the situation. They seemed to think the public would think logically and say if NG is known to be safe then we improve MAX by getting rid of MCAS 1.0 and adding other fixes it will be even safer. They didn't seem to understand the public was thinking emotionally rather than logically, for what should have been obvious reasons. It made Boeing look like they were in some sort of bubble, out of touch with the real world.

To me what is even more damning is that he personally said shortly after the 2nd crash that a review of all internal processes was conducted and all were followed. Now we read the JTAR report and contrast what JATR is telling the entire world with DM's statement, one where no proof was offered. It makes it look like either no one in Boeing was capable of looking at the situation the same way JATR did, or they did so and saw how ineffective their internal processes were and chose to self-censor to avoid making the same kinds of conclusions JATR made. I think it was the later, which was a classic corporate equivocation. I realize he was trying to make the best of a bad situation, but I think a different course could and should have been found.

Personally, I don't see how he survives the aftermath of the MAX crisis. If I was a Director, I'd vote to give him the sack once MAX is flying again, and that's what I bet will happen.
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:12 am

Agree, the whole early reaction of "we did nothing wrong" and imho if Boeing wants to convince the public that they have learned from the crashes and want to improve themselves, they need a new CEO. I would dare say somebody with an engineering background but from outside of Boeing would be a preferred choice. The only internal option would be somebody from the military side, if the person had no connections to the commercial side so far.
 
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:46 am

seahawk wrote:
Agree, the whole early reaction of "we did nothing wrong" and imho if Boeing wants to convince the public that they have learned from the crashes and want to improve themselves, they need a new CEO. I would dare say somebody with an engineering background but from outside of Boeing would be a preferred choice. The only internal option would be somebody from the military side, if the person had no connections to the commercial side so far.

I understand the whole need to not admit fault, it's just the way US corporations have to operate in our litigious society.

If it were me I certainly would never have uttered the infamous words, and if I needed to say all internal steps were followed I would have immediately followed with a statement that these procedures still left room for improvement and would have made an off the record but public show of moving engineering resources to the team and expelling old guard managers. A similar set of moves followed the 787 debacle.

I think they need a new CEO as an admission of the errors of the post-crash actions, and to draw a line under the whole situation once the MAX flies again. DM will end up being a well paid sacrificial lamb, IMO.
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DL747400
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Re: BA: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:43 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Sorry folks, but real change at BOEING will not begin until Muilenburg is put out on his ass. Smoke and mirrors. Cosmetics only. Don't be fooled.


a.net keeps acting like Boeing is some collapsing mess. Their market cap is 210 billion. Yes, they screwed up, and yes, having accountability by separating BOD and CEO is good, but it isn't like Eddie Lampert is in charge here.


People around the world love thrills and Boeing has become the phantasm of the image of the United States decline...

:rotfl:


Not quite, but glad that it gave you a laugh.

Look around you... There are many fine examples of true leaders. Muilenburg is not one of them. Muilenburg is at the opposite end of the spectrum and is as far from a leader as one can be. Greed, corruption, shortcuts and cost-cutting are his methods of operation and are the reasons for much of the decline in evidence at Boeing today. It is really striking that Muilenburg remains employed at Boeing in ANY capacity when he should be out. This is why the world believes that the United States is in decline and no longer trusts American corporations and no longer are willing to accept us at our word. People should be protesting in the streets in front of Willis Tower until he is walked out by security and the contents of his office placed in cardboard boxes on the curb of S. Wacker Drive. Until then, I feel deeply sorry for the longtime employees of Boeing who have had to sit back and watch the Commercial Aircraft Division torn apart and their product lines stagnate.
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mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:10 pm

Revelation wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Agree, the whole early reaction of "we did nothing wrong" and imho if Boeing wants to convince the public that they have learned from the crashes and want to improve themselves, they need a new CEO. I would dare say somebody with an engineering background but from outside of Boeing would be a preferred choice. The only internal option would be somebody from the military side, if the person had no connections to the commercial side so far.

I understand the whole need to not admit fault, it's just the way US corporations have to operate in our litigious society.

If it were me I certainly would never have uttered the infamous words, and if I needed to say all internal steps were followed I would have immediately followed with a statement that these procedures still left room for improvement and would have made an off the record but public show of moving engineering resources to the team and expelling old guard managers. A similar set of moves followed the 787 debacle.

I think they need a new CEO as an admission of the errors of the post-crash actions, and to draw a line under the whole situation once the MAX flies again. DM will end up being a well paid sacrificial lamb, IMO.


The point is just, that a corporation like Boeing does not operate only in the USA but worldwide. The accidents did not happen in the USA but outside. In other countries it is the rule to admit fault. In the USA, you pay out money, take fines, do secret agreements, do everything, but never admit fault.
Countries like in Asia, expect that a company admits fault and the CEO makes a big show off the fault acknowledgment and the apology for work shoddily done. Not doing the above, gives the impression of a callous huckster if one does not want to use worse words. Europe expects companies to admit to fault, but you do not have to debase yourself. Not admitting fault in Europe, can lead to much heavier fines.
In cases when the fault of a company is that obvious, USA attorneys and company management should perhaps think about, if the USA never admit fault instant reaction, is really appropriate when you operate in a world wide environment.
 
patrickjp93
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Re: Boeing: Muilenburg out as Chairman (remains CEO); David Calhoun named Chairman

Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:55 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Revelation wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Agree, the whole early reaction of "we did nothing wrong" and imho if Boeing wants to convince the public that they have learned from the crashes and want to improve themselves, they need a new CEO. I would dare say somebody with an engineering background but from outside of Boeing would be a preferred choice. The only internal option would be somebody from the military side, if the person had no connections to the commercial side so far.

I understand the whole need to not admit fault, it's just the way US corporations have to operate in our litigious society.

If it were me I certainly would never have uttered the infamous words, and if I needed to say all internal steps were followed I would have immediately followed with a statement that these procedures still left room for improvement and would have made an off the record but public show of moving engineering resources to the team and expelling old guard managers. A similar set of moves followed the 787 debacle.

I think they need a new CEO as an admission of the errors of the post-crash actions, and to draw a line under the whole situation once the MAX flies again. DM will end up being a well paid sacrificial lamb, IMO.


The point is just, that a corporation like Boeing does not operate only in the USA but worldwide. The accidents did not happen in the USA but outside. In other countries it is the rule to admit fault. In the USA, you pay out money, take fines, do secret agreements, do everything, but never admit fault.
Countries like in Asia, expect that a company admits fault and the CEO makes a big show off the fault acknowledgment and the apology for work shoddily done. Not doing the above, gives the impression of a callous huckster if one does not want to use worse words. Europe expects companies to admit to fault, but you do not have to debase yourself. Not admitting fault in Europe, can lead to much heavier fines.
In cases when the fault of a company is that obvious, USA attorneys and company management should perhaps think about, if the USA never admit fault instant reaction, is really appropriate when you operate in a world wide environment.

If by asian you mean Korean... Everywhere else it's the same faultless system. Japan, China, Malaysia, Singapore, Sri Lanka, and India, it's never the business heads at fault. That's how their top-down way of doing things works. It's always a failure of execution, not strategy.

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