SkyVoice
Topic Author
Posts: 322
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Time For A New Airport In Israel?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:40 am

While reading an article in the English-language website Globes.co.il about the high cost of tourism in Israel, I read the subheading "3. The time has come to decide on an extra airport." Here is the link to the entire article . . . https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-tour ... 1001303377

I think that the article contains some very salient points. What do you, my fellow A*Netters, think? And, is it now time to reopen Jerusalem's airport, Atarot, to limited commercial traffic? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atarot_Airport
"Your talents may take you where your character can not keep you." - Terry Nelson
 
LHLX
Posts: 143
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:25 am

Re: Time For A New Airport In Israel?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:03 am

Atarot airport is in the West Bank, between Jerusalem and Ramallah, and has not seen any service, including domestic, in at least 2 decades...

Ramon International Airport, north of Eilat, opened less than a year ago, at the same that Eilat's domestic downtown airport and the Ovda air force base of the IAF that was used for international flights to Eilat, closed. Several international carriers (WIzzAir, Ryanair, Finnair, Lufthansa, Transavia and others) serve the airport seasonally (mostly November - April). It;s kind of surprising that as more than 3/4 of the traffic at Ramon is made with jet planes and not turbo props, that they didn't add at least some jet-bridges for boarding, it;s all done by bus...
Ben Gurion Airport's Terminal 3 has opened a 4th concourse (E) last year with 10 gates (8 of which have jet-bridges).

I don't think that adding another airport (for example in Israel's north) will lower the costs for tourists here in Israel. Life is, unfortunately, disproportionately expensive here, and this gets reflected in the prices tourists pay for food and hotels...
I am also not sure that at this stage Israel needs a third international airport, there really are more urgent infrastructure improvements that we need - such as 7-days of public transportation, an improved nationwide railway network (ours is small and 160 km/h is considered high speed here) and finally the completion of the metro network in Tel Aviv.
 
AstanaMagic
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:57 pm

Re: Time For A New Airport In Israel?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:21 am

I concur that there are probably more urgent infrastructure projects in Israel than building another airport. However, I was under the impression Nevatim (LLNV) was supposed to be designated a future gateway? It has suitable runways and it's a reasonable drive from Tel Aviv down Highway 6? Could anyone shed any light on this?

If a northern gateway would be required, would it be possible to convert Ramat David to co Civilian/Military use? I don't see expanding Haifa a cost effective option as its hemmed in around the port facilities. Also, from what I remember, and I last flew from Atarot in 2000, the facilities there would need significant investment to upgrade, if they were ever allowed to.
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SCQ83
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Re: Time For A New Airport In Israel?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:56 am

Jerusalem is now 25 minutes to TLV airport with the new train. What is the point of reopening JRS? Not to even start with the political issues.

I don't see how another airport in the North would help. Tourists want to visit Tel Aviv & Jerusalem, so they would favor TLV anyway. Foreign legacy carriers would stick to TLV. No point for them in duplicating flights to some minor airport 1-hour away from TLV. Israel is a small market after all.

So a potential new airport in the North would only capture some low-cost carriers (mainly subsidised, and mostly being moved from TLV) and maybe some holiday flights for Israelis. Hundreds of millions USD would be spent to have some random flights like Arkia to Eilat, Israir to Larnaca and Ryanair to Budapest and Poznan.

Much better to improve connections from TLV notably to Haifa and Northern Israel.
 
flybaby
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:20 am

Re: Time For A New Airport In Israel?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:54 am

SkyVoice wrote:
While reading an article in the English-language website Globes.co.il about the high cost of tourism in Israel, I read the subheading "3. The time has come to decide on an extra airport." Here is the link to the entire article . . . https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-tour ... 1001303377

I think that the article contains some very salient points. What do you, my fellow A*Netters, think? And, is it now time to reopen Jerusalem's airport, Atarot, to limited commercial traffic? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atarot_Airport


A secondary airport to TLV has been discussed for decades yet not much has happened. The Air Force opposes a civilian operation at Nevatim, while surrounding residents are fighting against a civilian operation at Ramat David.

Atarot won’t happen due to multiple factors (political, security, encroachment, etc.), plus as other have mentioned with the new train, TLV is less than an half an hour away from central Jerusalem.

The article tries to argue a point which I am not sure is valid... which is that another airport (that would mostly serve European and other closer destinations) would materially reduce fares. Flights to these destinations are already relatively cheap thanks to ample competition at TLV and another airport won’t significantly reduce them, plus most tourists want to visit Tel Avis and Jerusalem anyway. There may be other reasons to build another airport but reducing fares to short and medium distance destinations isn’t really one of them.

The real situation on the ground is that TLV is well situated in a central location, is well-connected to the rail network, and can support additional growth and as such the talks about another airport will probably continue to be that - talks without much action.
 
flybaby
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:20 am

Re: Time For A New Airport In Israel?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:02 am

flybaby wrote:
SkyVoice wrote:
While reading an article in the English-language website Globes.co.il about the high cost of tourism in Israel, I read the subheading "3. The time has come to decide on an extra airport." Here is the link to the entire article . . . https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-tour ... 1001303377

I think that the article contains some very salient points. What do you, my fellow A*Netters, think? And, is it now time to reopen Jerusalem's airport, Atarot, to limited commercial traffic? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atarot_Airport


A secondary airport to TLV has been discussed for decades yet not much has happened. The Air Force opposes a civilian operation at Nevatim, while surrounding residents are fighting against a civilian operation at Ramat David.

Atarot won’t happen due to multiple factors (political, security, encroachment, etc.), plus as other have mentioned with the new train, TLV is less than an half an hour away from central Jerusalem.

The article tries to argue a point which I am not sure is valid... which is that another airport (that would mostly serve European and other closer destinations) would materially reduce fares. Flights to these destinations are already relatively cheap thanks to ample competition at TLV and another airport won’t significantly reduce them, plus most tourists want to visit Tel Avis and Jerusalem anyway. There may be other reasons to build another airport but reducing fares to short and medium distance destinations by constructing another airport (and in what would a less-convenient location than TLV) isn’t really one of them.

The real situation on the ground is that TLV is well situated in a central location, is well-connected to the rail network, and can support additional growth and as such the talks about another airport will probably continue to be that - talks without much action.


Please delete post. Submitted in error.
 
f4f3a
Posts: 557
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Re: Time For A New Airport In Israel?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:10 pm

I’m not sure that it is needed . Tlv has expanded quite a lot in the last few years . There is plenty of apron space and the new refurbished LCC terminal has added capacity. If they need more plenty of room for another terminal . They might benefit from parrellel runways instead of the old fashioned triangle of three . Airspace / political reasons might. It allow this . But there certainly is plenty of room for expansion
 
Naincompetent
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:20 am

Re: Time For A New Airport In Israel?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:20 pm

Is TLV slot restricted in any way?
From a terminal/gates pow, they are still building and expanding.
As for Jerusalem, you have to understand that TLV is very poorly named, it takes just as much time to get there from tel Aviv as it takes from Jerusalem.
There is already a new airport down south, and I think that a rail link from there to Eilat and Beer Sheva (to connect to the rail system) would be a far superior solution. You would enable Ramon apt to deserve the whole Israeli south and would also free TLV from the bulk of the flights to Eilat
 
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stl07
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Re: Time For A New Airport In Israel?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:45 pm

Question for some of you folks more in the know about the region since we are discussing the airport location. Is it more convenient for many places such as those in the West Bank or even Eliat or other cities to just fly into/out of Jordan using Amman or Aqaba rather than trekking up to TLV because at least in my hometown in the midwest of the US, we have tons of people connecting to Jordan but our city has a high Jewish population and a very low Muslim middle eastern population
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 385
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Time For A New Airport In Israel?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:05 pm

Border crossings between Israel and Jordan are few and far between and rather more of an effort compared to the US/Canada border. Most people not living in the Middle East will need a visa for Jordan if they want to cross the border from Israel to Jordan - this costs about US$80 (unless you buy the Jordan Pass and spend 3 nights in Jordan). Border crossings can take non-trivial amounts of time between the 2 countries and generally involve paying extra money.

Flights from Eilat and Aqaba are primarily either to the national airport hub (TLV or AMM respectively) or on Easyjet/Ryanair/Wizzair which do not really offer normal connecting flights (unless you combine Easyjet with Norwegian)

Mixing Aqaba and Eilat can be done but it's a pain and would be even more awkward if flying from N. America
 
Naincompetent
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:20 am

Re: Time For A New Airport In Israel?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:27 pm

Actually a lot of Israeli fly through Amman. However their journey mostly start in TLV with a flight to Amman...
For Eilat, crossing to Aqaba is no big deal, a lot of Israeli prefer Aqaba's resorts to Eilat's. However Aqaba is not in competition with TLV but with Ramon airport.
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 385
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Time For A New Airport In Israel?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:40 pm

Perhaps worth noting that Israeli passport holders can enter Jordan without a visa. Europeans and North Americans generally do require a visa to enter Jordan unless they have bought a Jordan Pass and are staying at least 3 nights in Jordan - ie not ideal if you are travelling from the USA to Israel
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1564
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: Time For A New Airport In Israel?

Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:27 pm

Israel is about 13% of the size of Florida and Tel Aviv is right in the middle between the two largest cities. Eilat, the only city that is more than 4 hours away by bus, has its own airport already. I think that's plenty for a small country like that. Haifa in the north is just 1h24m by train from Tel Aviv airport and Jerusalem is just 23m away.
 
flybaby
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:20 am

Re: Time For A New Airport In Israel?

Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:18 pm

Naincompetent wrote:
Is TLV slot restricted in any way?
From a terminal/gates pow, they are still building and expanding.
As for Jerusalem, you have to understand that TLV is very poorly named, it takes just as much time to get there from tel Aviv as it takes from Jerusalem.
There is already a new airport down south, and I think that a rail link from there to Eilat and Beer Sheva (to connect to the rail system) would be a far superior solution. You would enable Ramon apt to deserve the whole Israeli south and would also free TLV from the bulk of the flights to Eilat


TLV is mildly slot-restricted. At the hight of the summer season the IAA rejects about 2% of slot requests due to congestion, while others are approved but not necessarily at the most optimal times requested by the airlines. That said, the slot restrictions are not so much due to lack of infrastructure at the airport itself but due to other matters. The two main ones are:

Limited airspace management capacity at Eurocontrol Cyprus though which most of the air routes to and from Israel pass through.

An outdated noise management plan dating back more than two decades which results in uneven and inefficient usage of TLV’s runways. The IAA is seeking approval of a new plan but that requires submitting a national infrastructure plan, a process that could easily take a decade to pass all of the hearings, hurdles, approvals and objections. The state comptroller of Israel has admonished the IAA and the ministry of transport in letting this situation fester. Those of you who understand Hebrew can read their audit find on this issue in this document: https://www.mevaker.gov.il/he/Reports/R ... natbag.pdf

Due to the aforementioned issues, max movements at TLV is limited to 24 per hour, while in theory the infrastructure could easily support more than that.

It’s also worth mentioning that due to noise pollution there is a takeoffs embargo at TLV between 1:40am and 5:50am. This causes issue to some airlines because due to Israel’s location at the “edge” of the European and TATL route networks, many would prefer to take off from TLV during this time window.

Lastly, it looks like the breakneck growth at TLV that came about due to the signing of the open skies agreement with the EU in the early 2010s is now starting to slow down with the agreement now fully consummated. As such, pax growth at TLV is forecasted to be about 6-7% this year, or about half what it’s been in recent years. That gives the Israeli government a bit of a breather to solve some of those “bureaucratic challenges” mentioned above that the airport is facing.
 
Blerg
Posts: 2518
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Time For A New Airport In Israel?

Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:46 am

flybaby wrote:
Naincompetent wrote:
Is TLV slot restricted in any way?
From a terminal/gates pow, they are still building and expanding.
As for Jerusalem, you have to understand that TLV is very poorly named, it takes just as much time to get there from tel Aviv as it takes from Jerusalem.
There is already a new airport down south, and I think that a rail link from there to Eilat and Beer Sheva (to connect to the rail system) would be a far superior solution. You would enable Ramon apt to deserve the whole Israeli south and would also free TLV from the bulk of the flights to Eilat


TLV is mildly slot-restricted. At the hight of the summer season the IAA rejects about 2% of slot requests due to congestion, while others are approved but not necessarily at the most optimal times requested by the airlines. That said, the slot restrictions are not so much due to lack of infrastructure at the airport itself but due to other matters. The two main ones are:

Limited airspace management capacity at Eurocontrol Cyprus though which most of the air routes to and from Israel pass through.

An outdated noise management plan dating back more than two decades which results in uneven and inefficient usage of TLV’s runways. The IAA is seeking approval of a new plan but that requires submitting a national infrastructure plan, a process that could easily take a decade to pass all of the hearings, hurdles, approvals and objections. The state comptroller of Israel has admonished the IAA and the ministry of transport in letting this situation fester. Those of you who understand Hebrew can read their audit find on this issue in this document: https://www.mevaker.gov.il/he/Reports/R ... natbag.pdf

Due to the aforementioned issues, max movements at TLV is limited to 24 per hour, while in theory the infrastructure could easily support more than that.

It’s also worth mentioning that due to noise pollution there is a takeoffs embargo at TLV between 1:40am and 5:50am. This causes issue to some airlines because due to Israel’s location at the “edge” of the European and TATL route networks, many would prefer to take off from TLV during this time window.

Lastly, it looks like the breakneck growth at TLV that came about due to the signing of the open skies agreement with the EU in the early 2010s is now starting to slow down with the agreement now fully consummated. As such, pax growth at TLV is forecasted to be about 6-7% this year, or about half what it’s been in recent years. That gives the Israeli government a bit of a breather to solve some of those “bureaucratic challenges” mentioned above that the airport is facing.


Interesting that they blocked departures but not arrivals, do you know how come?
I noticed quite often that first departures out of TLV (mostly foreign/European carriers) are late, is it due to mismanagement at TLV? For example all airlines arrived on time but departed with around an hour delay.
 
flybaby
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:20 am

Re: Time For A New Airport In Israel?

Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:47 am

Blerg wrote:
...

Interesting that they blocked departures but not arrivals, do you know how come?
I noticed quite often that first departures out of TLV (mostly foreign/European carriers) are late, is it due to mismanagement at TLV? For example all airlines arrived on time but departed with around an hour delay.


The reason is that late night arrivals come in as a straight-through approach from the Mediterranean over southern Tel Aviv (runway 12) and generate less noise than takeoffs.

Not sure about the departure delay. Could be because many departures are queued up early in the morning to take off just after the embargo lifts which could create a cascade of delays.
 
Naincompetent
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:20 am

Re: Time For A New Airport In Israel?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:46 am

flybaby wrote:
Naincompetent wrote:
Is TLV slot restricted in any way?
From a terminal/gates pow, they are still building and expanding.
As for Jerusalem, you have to understand that TLV is very poorly named, it takes just as much time to get there from tel Aviv as it takes from Jerusalem.
There is already a new airport down south, and I think that a rail link from there to Eilat and Beer Sheva (to connect to the rail system) would be a far superior solution. You would enable Ramon apt to deserve the whole Israeli south and would also free TLV from the bulk of the flights to Eilat


TLV is mildly slot-restricted. At the hight of the summer season the IAA rejects about 2% of slot requests due to congestion, while others are approved but not necessarily at the most optimal times requested by the airlines. That said, the slot restrictions are not so much due to lack of infrastructure at the airport itself but due to other matters. The two main ones are:

Limited airspace management capacity at Eurocontrol Cyprus though which most of the air routes to and from Israel pass through.

An outdated noise management plan dating back more than two decades which results in uneven and inefficient usage of TLV’s runways. The IAA is seeking approval of a new plan but that requires submitting a national infrastructure plan, a process that could easily take a decade to pass all of the hearings, hurdles, approvals and objections. The state comptroller of Israel has admonished the IAA and the ministry of transport in letting this situation fester. Those of you who understand Hebrew can read their audit find on this issue in this document: https://www.mevaker.gov.il/he/Reports/R ... natbag.pdf

Due to the aforementioned issues, max movements at TLV is limited to 24 per hour, while in theory the infrastructure could easily support more than that.

It’s also worth mentioning that due to noise pollution there is a takeoffs embargo at TLV between 1:40am and 5:50am. This causes issue to some airlines because due to Israel’s location at the “edge” of the European and TATL route networks, many would prefer to take off from TLV during this time window.

Lastly, it looks like the breakneck growth at TLV that came about due to the signing of the open skies agreement with the EU in the early 2010s is now starting to slow down with the agreement now fully consummated. As such, pax growth at TLV is forecasted to be about 6-7% this year, or about half what it’s been in recent years. That gives the Israeli government a bit of a breather to solve some of those “bureaucratic challenges” mentioned above that the airport is facing.


Thank you for this very detailed answer!

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