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LatinAirliner
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Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:16 pm

Apparently Azul, which was already in talks with Avianca to build up a codeshare, now is joining the future Avianca - Copa - United partnership.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-azul ... SKBN1WT1WW

Let's see what this new partnership brings and if they are finally able to make the JV work.
LatinAirliner - Nickpo
 
Ishrion
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:20 pm

DL with LATAM, UA with these three airlines. AA’s the last one left.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:31 pm

It surprises me Azul won't join Star Alliance. It would give them a lot of feeder traffic, and obviously Star would benefit from filling a big hole in South America.
 
lhrsfosyd91
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:00 pm

Alliances are a legacy of the past. Joint ventures are what matters these days.

I guess AA has only got Gol to get in bed with?
 
flyby519
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:06 pm

And a gaping hole in S. Florida. Yes, same applies to DL/LATAM
 
ITSTours
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:21 pm

This makes a very much sense, and people have speculated this would happen.
 
jfk777
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:31 pm

Azul is big at Viracopas not GRU, AA's Sao Paulo Gateway, so they are of limited use to AA. Azul has a limited presence at GRU so GOL is a much better Brazilian airline for AA's purposes.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:34 pm

In terms of south Florida it occurred to me while passing MIA an hour ago and looking at LATAM's hangar and planes that for whatever reason all of United's partners fly to FLL (some fly to MIA also) while none of the DL or AA partners in Latin America do. Is this a coincidence, or due to UA having superior domestic feed in FLL vs MIA? UA also relatively stronger at FLL than at MIA when compared to DL and AA. Of course FLL dominated by LCC's but among network carriers UA has a far bigger chunk of FLL traffic than MIA.
 
flyby519
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:38 pm

Airlines0613 wrote:
flyby519 wrote:
And a gaping hole in S. Florida. Yes, same applies to DL/LATAM

Obviously it’s not important to these airlines, because if it was, they would’ve entered the market a long time ago. Stop bringing this up, it’s pointless. It’s very obvious that all airlines don’t need a hub in Florida.


I just think AA is in a precarious position and it would be a ripe opportunity for either of the DL or UA JVs to increase focus on the market. I don’t need to tell anyone here how huge of a market MIA is, and it’s importance shouldn’t be understated.
 
A388
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:05 pm

Amazing how buying a 20% share in 1 airline can have such a big domino effect on these Latin markets. DL and their Sky Team alliance were the smallest of the 3 alliances and AA with their One World Alliance was the biggest. With LATAM now joining DL (and Sky Team), they will become the biggest now and AA (and the One World Alliance) becoming the smallest. AV with the Star Alliance will remain at the number 2 spot but become more powerful with AD joining them.

A388
 
Prost
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:01 pm

LATAM isn’t going to join Skyteam. I’m sure they’ll increase code sharing with Skyteam airlines, but they aren’t joining.
 
Airlines0613
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:37 pm

A388 wrote:
Amazing how buying a 20% share in 1 airline can have such a big domino effect on these Latin markets. DL and their Sky Team alliance were the smallest of the 3 alliances and AA with their One World Alliance was the biggest. With LATAM now joining DL (and Sky Team), they will become the biggest now and AA (and the One World Alliance) becoming the smallest. AV with the Star Alliance will remain at the number 2 spot but become more powerful with AD joining them.

A388

I can see that in the LatAm market, but worldwide, Star Alliance is the undisputed number one largest alliance with One World coming second and SkyTeam third.
 
A388
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:50 pm

Prost wrote:
LATAM isn’t going to join Skyteam. I’m sure they’ll increase code sharing with Skyteam airlines, but they aren’t joining.


Why wouldn't they?

A388
 
A388
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:51 pm

Airlines0613 wrote:
A388 wrote:
Amazing how buying a 20% share in 1 airline can have such a big domino effect on these Latin markets. DL and their Sky Team alliance were the smallest of the 3 alliances and AA with their One World Alliance was the biggest. With LATAM now joining DL (and Sky Team), they will become the biggest now and AA (and the One World Alliance) becoming the smallest. AV with the Star Alliance will remain at the number 2 spot but become more powerful with AD joining them.

A388

I can see that in the LatAm market, but worldwide, Star Alliance is the undisputed number one largest alliance with One World coming second and SkyTeam third.


That is correct, I was referring to Latin America alone. I can imagine the Star Alliance being the biggest one of the 3 alliances.

A388
 
IAHWorldflyer
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:09 pm

This really isn't a surprise. UA has a small ownership stake in Azul, and if you look on united.com to book a ticket in Brazil other than GRU or GIG, you will get connection options on Azul. The Avianca partnership so far has been a big nothing. The only UA hubs that see AV jets are IAD and LAX. Azul can codeshare onto UA flights at FLL, but the South Florida market is not a strong one for UA.
 
luckyone
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:47 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
In terms of south Florida it occurred to me while passing MIA an hour ago and looking at LATAM's hangar and planes that for whatever reason all of United's partners fly to FLL (some fly to MIA also) while none of the DL or AA partners in Latin America do. Is this a coincidence, or due to UA having superior domestic feed in FLL vs MIA? UA also relatively stronger at FLL than at MIA when compared to DL and AA. Of course FLL dominated by LCC's but among network carriers UA has a far bigger chunk of FLL traffic than MIA.

It's likely largely a coincidence about United's partners flying to FLL, as they don't have a significant presence at either airport.

The data I have access to regarding United's traffic at both airports:
FLL
Rank Carrier Passengers Share
1 Southwest 6,318,000 23.38%
2 JetBlue 6,028,000 22.30%
3 Spirit 5,851,000 21.65%
4 Delta 3,393,000 12.56%
5 United 2,150,000 7.95%

MIA
Rank Airline Passengers Percent of market share
1 American Airlines 14,800,000 69.58%
2 Delta Air Lines 2,486,000 11.69%
3 United Airlines 1,224,000 5.75%
4 Envoy Air 901,000 4.24%
5 Frontier Airlines 376,000 1.77%
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:52 pm

A388 wrote:
Amazing how buying a 20% share in 1 airline can have such a big domino effect on these Latin markets. DL and their Sky Team alliance were the smallest of the 3 alliances and AA with their One World Alliance was the biggest. With LATAM now joining DL (and Sky Team), they will become the biggest now and AA (and the One World Alliance) becoming the smallest. AV with the Star Alliance will remain at the number 2 spot but become more powerful with AD joining them.

A388

The shift in selected JV partner is huge. It will have ripple effects for a year. Competitors to LATAM now have new opportunities. I'm sure as soon as DL/LATAM announced their move that AA, GOL, US, and Azul were flying to meet each other.

Shakeups of this magnitude are rare. It creates a time to make deals. I'm sure the deal making will extend to EU airlines.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
JJ777
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:02 pm

lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
Alliances are a legacy of the past. Joint ventures are what matters these days.

I guess AA has only got Gol to get in bed with?


AA has already opened negotiations with Gol. Just a question of time until we discover if it'll be a simple codeshare agreement or a larger JV.
 
onwFan
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:21 pm

A388 wrote:
Prost wrote:
LATAM isn’t going to join Skyteam. I’m sure they’ll increase code sharing with Skyteam airlines, but they aren’t joining.


Why wouldn't they?

A388


LA is going to retain JV with IAG and partnership with QF. AF/KL is going to retain JV with UX and codeshare with G3. If LA gives up IAG and tries a JV with AF/KL/UX - I hardly doubt if that JV will be approved, because AF/KL/UX is already larger than IAG+LA.. LA just stands to lose MAD (in addition to MIA) by joining SkyTeam. Anyway, no other carrier in SkyTeam makes any sense or use for LA (or as a matter of fact to any airline in the world) to partner with (they already codeshare with KE and MU; and they are no substitute for JL).

If anything, the only thing that has changed is that now neither oneworld nor SkyTeam will have any carrier in South America (It still needs to be seen what happens to AR).

On a side note, I think now is the time for one of Copa or Avianca to dump Star. Neither of them get any feed in MIA or JFK and they compete with each other for the same market anyway.
 
jfk777
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:33 pm

onwFan wrote:
A388 wrote:
Prost wrote:
LATAM isn’t going to join Skyteam. I’m sure they’ll increase code sharing with Skyteam airlines, but they aren’t joining.


Why wouldn't they?

A388


LA is going to retain JV with IAG and partnership with QF. AF/KL is going to retain JV with UX and codeshare with G3. If LA gives up IAG and tries a JV with AF/KL/UX - I hardly doubt if that JV will be approved, because AF/KL/UX is already larger than IAG+LA.. LA just stands to lose MAD (in addition to MIA) by joining SkyTeam. Anyway, no other carrier in SkyTeam makes any sense or use for LA (or as a matter of fact to any airline in the world) to partner with (they already codeshare with KE and MU; and they are no substitute for JL).

If anything, the only thing that has changed is that now neither oneworld nor SkyTeam will have any carrier in South America (It still needs to be seen what happens to AR).

On a side note, I think now is the time for one of Copa or Avianca to dump Star. Neither of them get any feed in MIA or JFK and they compete with each other for the same market anyway.



Copa is a highly desired partner in Latin America since they created a hub and expanded the market way beyond what was thought to be. They have the correct formula with the 737NG fleet to connect long and thin destinations, not only the main cities flown to by 777 & 787 from Miami and JFK. Copa growth has kept on chugging and if they ever see the wisdom of the 787-9 everyone better watch out, it not only Europe but from Panama they should get tp Asia too. 737's are great but at some point they are going to need a bigger plane and their customer will want to fly beyond Latin America avoiding the USA and Canada.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:18 pm

A388 wrote:
With LATAM now joining Sky Team

A388

LATAM never said that and this is not happening anytime soon. In fact in the press release they said they're not going to join any alliance anytime soon after leaving OW.

Michael
 
Obzerva
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:37 am

A388 wrote:
Prost wrote:
LATAM isn’t going to join Skyteam. I’m sure they’ll increase code sharing with Skyteam airlines, but they aren’t joining.


Why wouldn't they?

A388


The same reason VS isn't in Skyteam, and EI isn't in Oneworld.
The alliances have reached the end of their life cycle, they had a place but no so much any more.

Why increase your costs by asking to join a group of airlines of which half will provide no benefit. What benefit is being in an alliance with TAROM and CSA Czech going to add to LATAM?

Just deal with those that you want to strike a deal with.
 
OB1504
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:31 am

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
In terms of south Florida it occurred to me while passing MIA an hour ago and looking at LATAM's hangar and planes that for whatever reason all of United's partners fly to FLL (some fly to MIA also) while none of the DL or AA partners in Latin America do. Is this a coincidence, or due to UA having superior domestic feed in FLL vs MIA? UA also relatively stronger at FLL than at MIA when compared to DL and AA. Of course FLL dominated by LCC's but among network carriers UA has a far bigger chunk of FLL traffic than MIA.


Coincidence. FLL only gets one flight a day from Avianca and Copa each compared to MIA, which gets 10 Avianca flights a day (2-3 of which are on widebodies) and 5-6 Copa flights a day. Azul chose FLL over MIA as a low cost alternate (similar to why their main base is VCP and not GRU) and for JetBlue connectivity.
 
A388
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:35 am

onwFan wrote:
A388 wrote:
Prost wrote:
LATAM isn’t going to join Skyteam. I’m sure they’ll increase code sharing with Skyteam airlines, but they aren’t joining.


Why wouldn't they?

A388


LA is going to retain JV with IAG and partnership with QF. AF/KL is going to retain JV with UX and codeshare with G3. If LA gives up IAG and tries a JV with AF/KL/UX - I hardly doubt if that JV will be approved, because AF/KL/UX is already larger than IAG+LA.. LA just stands to lose MAD (in addition to MIA) by joining SkyTeam. Anyway, no other carrier in SkyTeam makes any sense or use for LA (or as a matter of fact to any airline in the world) to partner with (they already codeshare with KE and MU; and they are no substitute for JL).

If anything, the only thing that has changed is that now neither oneworld nor SkyTeam will have any carrier in South America (It still needs to be seen what happens to AR).

On a side note, I think now is the time for one of Copa or Avianca to dump Star. Neither of them get any feed in MIA or JFK and they compete with each other for the same market anyway.


Doesn't make any sense what you're saying about Latam not joining Sky Team and staying with OneWorld. Why would DL invest 1 billion dollars in Latam for that 20% stake? Just to sit and watch Latam continue to work with their competitor OneWorld?

You say AF/KL/UX is already bigger then IAG and Latam, where does this come from? IB has the largest European presence in Latin America. UX doesn't even come close to that. Why compare these 3 European Sky Tesm airlines with IAG and Latam?

What relation do Copa or Avianca have with not getting feed in Miami or New York? They have there own feed on their own hubs in South America to connect to Europe and they have UA to connect within the US(?)

A388
 
A388
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:39 am

LA not joining any alliance now, VS and EI not being in any alliance now. Who says they won't join those alliances in the future? On what is it based that alliances have reached the end of their life cycle?

A388
 
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:01 am

A388 wrote:
onwFan wrote:
A388 wrote:

Why wouldn't they?

A388


LA is going to retain JV with IAG and partnership with QF. AF/KL is going to retain JV with UX and codeshare with G3. If LA gives up IAG and tries a JV with AF/KL/UX - I hardly doubt if that JV will be approved, because AF/KL/UX is already larger than IAG+LA.. LA just stands to lose MAD (in addition to MIA) by joining SkyTeam. Anyway, no other carrier in SkyTeam makes any sense or use for LA (or as a matter of fact to any airline in the world) to partner with (they already codeshare with KE and MU; and they are no substitute for JL).

If anything, the only thing that has changed is that now neither oneworld nor SkyTeam will have any carrier in South America (It still needs to be seen what happens to AR).

On a side note, I think now is the time for one of Copa or Avianca to dump Star. Neither of them get any feed in MIA or JFK and they compete with each other for the same market anyway.


Doesn't make any sense what you're saying about Latam not joining Sky Team and staying with OneWorld. Why would DL invest 1 billion dollars in Latam for that 20% stake? Just to sit and watch Latam continue to work with their competitor OneWorld?

You say AF/KL/UX is already bigger then IAG and Latam, where does this come from? IB has the largest European presence in Latin America. UX doesn't even come close to that. Why compare these 3 European Sky Tesm airlines with IAG and Latam?

What relation do Copa or Avianca have with not getting feed in Miami or New York? They have there own feed on their own hubs in South America to connect to Europe and they have UA to connect within the US(?)

A388


Latam have already said that they will maintain their existing partnerships with IAG and Qantas after they leave OneWorld.

Delta have only purchased 20%. While they will influence Latam's strategy in the North America market going forward, with a minority shareholding they don't have the power to object to LA continuing to codeshare with IB/BA/QF if the BoD believe that is in LA's interests.

What's more it really wouldn't bother DL either way. They are not really competing in the South America-Europe market, and their JBA with KL/AF/VS does not cover South America so they neither benefit from cooperation between LA and AF/KL, nor are they hindered by the lack of cooperation. So long as Delta get what they need from Latam that's as far as their interest will extend.

You ask how we know alliances are past their prime? It's precisely because there are more bilateral JBAs popping up between non-alliance carriers, in addition to more carriers opting to remain non-aligned. DL-LA is but the latest bilateral partnership, but there are many others like AA-CZ, QF-EK, QF-MU, LH-CX etc. You will note that like LA not committing to joining SkyTeam, CZ has not shown any interest in joining OneWorld.
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SJOtoLIR
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:30 am

The US routes flown by AD seem to be attractive for the trinomium [UA-AV-CM], in order to sustain proper code-share agreements.
AD has a strong presence at both FLL and MCO and operated by Airbus 330, especially from VCP.
This intended partnership should be mutual as [UA-AV-CM] might carry the AD designator, in selected US routes from Brazil.
Copa Airlines actually holds a strong partnership with G3, where many routes entirely operated within Brazil bear the CM designator. On the other hand, some CM [PTY-Brazil] flights are carrying the G3 code. This commercial relationship might be emulated by AD as well.
Since the demise of Avianca Brazil, AV mainline might be searching new ways of cooperation with a brand new partner called Azul.
What would happen if the UA-AD agreement come into frution, taking into account the current commercial relationship between Azul / jetBlue ?
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
RCS763AV
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:24 am

SJOtoLIR wrote:
The US routes flown by AD seem to be attractive for the trinomium [UA-AV-CM], in order to sustain proper code-share agreements.
AD has a strong presence at both FLL and MCO and operated by Airbus 330, especially from VCP.
This intended partnership should be mutual as [UA-AV-CM] might carry the AD designator, in selected US routes from Brazil.
Copa Airlines actually holds a strong partnership with G3, where many routes entirely operated within Brazil bear the CM designator. On the other hand, some CM [PTY-Brazil] flights are carrying the G3 code. This commercial relationship might be emulated by AD as well.
Since the demise of Avianca Brazil, AV mainline might be searching new ways of cooperation with a brand new partner called Azul.
What would happen if the UA-AD agreement come into frution, taking into account the current commercial relationship between Azul / jetBlue ?


AV and Azul are already cooperating. An extensive codeshare agreement covering 27 destinations within Brazil and all of AV's network was signed a month ago:

https://www.eldiario.es/economia/Aerolineas-Avianca-Azul-Brasil-compartido_0_946305393.html

Well this is good news? I mean it means more and more market concentration but at least a counterweight to LATAM-DL. I see AA lonelier and lonelier but as has been discussed they have MIA with very strong US and Latin America POS power. With Gol and maybe Interjet they should be fine.

I'm guessing a return of CM and a start of AV flying from PTY and BOG to VCP respectively is now in the cards...
 
Jomar777
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:53 am

JJ777 wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
Alliances are a legacy of the past. Joint ventures are what matters these days.

I guess AA has only got Gol to get in bed with?


AA has already opened negotiations with Gol. Just a question of time until we discover if it'll be a simple codeshare agreement or a larger JV.


Do you have a source? It would be good to follow this up.

Thanks
Last edited by Jomar777 on Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:56 am

Ishrion wrote:
DL with LATAM, UA with these three airlines. AA’s the last one left.


They will tie up with GOL for sure. The only one left. Rather unsurprising - just need to see the extent of the partnership and, depending on this, what will happen in regards to local partnership with BA/IB, for example.

It is been widely accepted that LATAM will not join SkyService neither that Azul will join Star Alliance but I am not so sure. Depending on how this all plays, scenario might change.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:00 am

[list=][/list]
jfk777 wrote:
Azul is big at Viracopas not GRU, AA's Sao Paulo Gateway, so they are of limited use to AA. Azul has a limited presence at GRU so GOL is a much better Brazilian airline for AA's purposes.


It is a good point but presence in GRU is something that can change since they still have T1 with quite good capacity available where Azul is the almost the sole airline (Passaredo is small). The connections would ot be that straight forward for now (you need to use a bus after collecting your luggage) but it is something that can be worked out.

However, that would mainly suit UA and AV as AD is already tied up with them.
 
lhrsfosyd91
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:01 am

Gol's large presence at GRU makes it attractive for AA, however Gol flying on all economy B737s from secondary Brazilian cities to MIA/MCO not so much...
 
A388
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:40 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
A388 wrote:
onwFan wrote:

LA is going to retain JV with IAG and partnership with QF. AF/KL is going to retain JV with UX and codeshare with G3. If LA gives up IAG and tries a JV with AF/KL/UX - I hardly doubt if that JV will be approved, because AF/KL/UX is already larger than IAG+LA.. LA just stands to lose MAD (in addition to MIA) by joining SkyTeam. Anyway, no other carrier in SkyTeam makes any sense or use for LA (or as a matter of fact to any airline in the world) to partner with (they already codeshare with KE and MU; and they are no substitute for JL).

If anything, the only thing that has changed is that now neither oneworld nor SkyTeam will have any carrier in South America (It still needs to be seen what happens to AR).

On a side note, I think now is the time for one of Copa or Avianca to dump Star. Neither of them get any feed in MIA or JFK and they compete with each other for the same market anyway.


Doesn't make any sense what you're saying about Latam not joining Sky Team and staying with OneWorld. Why would DL invest 1 billion dollars in Latam for that 20% stake? Just to sit and watch Latam continue to work with their competitor OneWorld?

You say AF/KL/UX is already bigger then IAG and Latam, where does this come from? IB has the largest European presence in Latin America. UX doesn't even come close to that. Why compare these 3 European Sky Tesm airlines with IAG and Latam?

What relation do Copa or Avianca have with not getting feed in Miami or New York? They have there own feed on their own hubs in South America to connect to Europe and they have UA to connect within the US(?)

A388


Latam have already said that they will maintain their existing partnerships with IAG and Qantas after they leave OneWorld.

Delta have only purchased 20%. While they will influence Latam's strategy in the North America market going forward, with a minority shareholding they don't have the power to object to LA continuing to codeshare with IB/BA/QF if the BoD believe that is in LA's interests.

What's more it really wouldn't bother DL either way. They are not really competing in the South America-Europe market, and their JBA with KL/AF/VS does not cover South America so they neither benefit from cooperation between LA and AF/KL, nor are they hindered by the lack of cooperation. So long as Delta get what they need from Latam that's as far as their interest will extend.

You ask how we know alliances are past their prime? It's precisely because there are more bilateral JBAs popping up between non-alliance carriers, in addition to more carriers opting to remain non-aligned. DL-LA is but the latest bilateral partnership, but there are many others like AA-CZ, QF-EK, QF-MU, LH-CX etc. You will note that like LA not committing to joining SkyTeam, CZ has not shown any interest in joining OneWorld.


Why would DL pay 1 billion dollars for a stake in Latam when they won't benefit from cooperation between Latam and AF/KL and also not being hindered by a lack of cooperation? What other benefit is there for DL if it's not to strengthen their own alliance or be an added value to DL and that alliance (eventually)?

A388
 
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:55 pm

Azul has a hub at CNF, CO used to fly to CNF from EWR via GIG. Perhaps UA could bring back service to CNF.


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onwFan
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:18 pm

A388 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
A388 wrote:

Doesn't make any sense what you're saying about Latam not joining Sky Team and staying with OneWorld. Why would DL invest 1 billion dollars in Latam for that 20% stake? Just to sit and watch Latam continue to work with their competitor OneWorld?

You say AF/KL/UX is already bigger then IAG and Latam, where does this come from? IB has the largest European presence in Latin America. UX doesn't even come close to that. Why compare these 3 European Sky Tesm airlines with IAG and Latam?

What relation do Copa or Avianca have with not getting feed in Miami or New York? They have there own feed on their own hubs in South America to connect to Europe and they have UA to connect within the US(?)

A388


Latam have already said that they will maintain their existing partnerships with IAG and Qantas after they leave OneWorld.

Delta have only purchased 20%. While they will influence Latam's strategy in the North America market going forward, with a minority shareholding they don't have the power to object to LA continuing to codeshare with IB/BA/QF if the BoD believe that is in LA's interests.

What's more it really wouldn't bother DL either way. They are not really competing in the South America-Europe market, and their JBA with KL/AF/VS does not cover South America so they neither benefit from cooperation between LA and AF/KL, nor are they hindered by the lack of cooperation. So long as Delta get what they need from Latam that's as far as their interest will extend.

You ask how we know alliances are past their prime? It's precisely because there are more bilateral JBAs popping up between non-alliance carriers, in addition to more carriers opting to remain non-aligned. DL-LA is but the latest bilateral partnership, but there are many others like AA-CZ, QF-EK, QF-MU, LH-CX etc. You will note that like LA not committing to joining SkyTeam, CZ has not shown any interest in joining OneWorld.


Why would DL pay 1 billion dollars for a stake in Latam when they won't benefit from cooperation between Latam and AF/KL and also not being hindered by a lack of cooperation? What other benefit is there for DL if it's not to strengthen their own alliance or be an added value to DL and that alliance (eventually)?

A388


Just a week or so before the announcement of the LA/DL partnership, Ed Bastian admitted that SkyTeam has been useless to them and basically will be moving away from the alliance model. If LA wanted an alliance, OW was undoubtedly the best fit. What meaningful reason can DL give to convince LA to join Sky? What is the point of them partnering with SV, TO, OK, SU, KQ, VN, GA, CI, MF and ME (oh and AR!)? If anything, I would say carriers are lining up to leave SkyTeam. LA will be foolish to let go of IB for UX. In any case, good luck to LA!
 
SJOtoLIR
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:06 pm

RCS763AV wrote:
AV and Azul are already cooperating. An extensive codeshare agreement covering 27 destinations within Brazil and all of AV's network was signed a month ago.

Based on the above sentence, that demonstrates how important is the inner Brazilian market for Avianca mainline.
The point is that its own airline named Avianca Brasil collapsed catastrophically before, but they're even doing more business there, based on the brand new AV-AD agreement as poiting out above.
The main topic of the current thread states about new ways of cooperation between the three mentioned airlines and Azul for the US market.
My interpretation is the AV code later, in selected US flights to the United States on AD, especially heading to Ft. Lauderdale and Orlando.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
A388
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:36 pm

onwFan wrote:
Just a week or so before the announcement of the LA/DL partnership, Ed Bastian admitted that SkyTeam has been useless to them and basically will be moving away from the alliance model. If LA wanted an alliance, OW was undoubtedly the best fit. What meaningful reason can DL give to convince LA to join Sky? What is the point of them partnering with SV, TO, OK, SU, KQ, VN, GA, CI, MF and ME (oh and AR!)? If anything, I would say carriers are lining up to leave SkyTeam. LA will be foolish to let go of IB for UX. In any case, good luck to LA!


I also saw OneWorld as the best fit for LATAM and indeed it sounds weird for LA to join AR but in the same way it was weird to see CM join AV in the same alliance but it did happen. Time will tell whether global airline alliances are the way to go or not. I still don't see alliances losing ground or importance but seeing is believing, I guess.

A388
 
SJOtoLIR
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:56 pm

RCS763AV wrote:
I'm guessing a return of CM and a start of AV flying from PTY and BOG to VCP respectively is now in the cards...

CM PTY-VCP was canceled in 2015 and it worked as [4x-7x] weekly, in those days.
CM PTY-VCP was designed as a back-up for the strong market CM PTY-GRU, which is available as [4x-5x] daily by now.
On the other hand, CM and AD signed a mutual code-share agreement, in late December 2018. It's basically strong at CNF where AD operates a bunch of flights on behalf of CM.
The return of CM PTY-VCP might be possible, once that CM-AD agreement would work larger at VCP, like the CNF scenario.
However, Copa Airlines has experiencied troubles in Brazil lately, taking into account the withdrawal of both CM PTY-VCP and CM PTY-FOR. Routes like CM PTY-REC and CM PTY-SSA are barely operating no more than twice a week.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
dcajet
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:14 pm

STT757 wrote:
Azul has a hub at CNF, CO used to fly to CNF from EWR via GIG. Perhaps UA could bring back service to CNF.


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The only destinations in the US that could work from CNF are in Florida and Azul already covers them.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
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United787
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:08 pm

Could we see FLL or MCO turn into a mini-hub for UA? Or at a minimum, start to add some non-hub routes to FLL or MCO? UA already flies to FLL and MCO from all of it's mainland hubs except for LAX-FLL.
 
dcajet
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:13 pm

United787 wrote:
Could we see FLL or MCO turn into a mini-hub for UA? Or at a minimum, start to add some non-hub routes to FLL or MCO? UA already flies to FLL and MCO from all of it's mainland hubs except for LAX-FLL.


And cannibalize IAH? And when their partners in LatAm already do it (AC, CM & AD)?
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:29 pm

United Latin (ex-AV/CM/AD)
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SJOtoLIR
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:44 pm

RCS763AV wrote:
I'm guessing a return of CM and a start of AV flying from PTY and BOG to VCP respectively is now in the cards...

I'm not sure if any AV BOG-VCP may work sustainably later. CM PTY-VCP learnt this lesson well.
Let's take a look in the largest international markets at VCP by now: LIS, FLL and VCP and served by AD.
The healthy [GRU-MIA] sector is flown by AA and JJ as 14x weekly each and they can sustain the AD VCP-FLL back-up and supported for the strong connectivity at VCP on AD.
We cannot fairly compare this scenario to BOG, unless the ways of cooperation between AV and AD would be stronger in the future.
On the other hand, AV has demonstrated how the duplicity of both AV BOG-MIA and AV BOG-FLL can work together.


Regards.
Last edited by SJOtoLIR on Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:49 pm

dcajet wrote:
The only destinations in the US that could work from CNF are in Florida and Azul already covers them.

Yes, but the current level of weekly frequencies are quite limited by now: AD CNF-MCO 3x weekly with 332.
CNF is not VCP in terms of the non-stop connectivity heading to the United States on Azul.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
dcajet
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:31 pm

SJOtoLIR wrote:
dcajet wrote:
The only destinations in the US that could work from CNF are in Florida and Azul already covers them.

Yes, but the current level of weekly frequencies are quite limited by now: AD CNF-MCO 3x weekly with 332.
CNF is not VCP in terms of the non-stop connectivity heading to the United States on Azul.

Regards.


I am not sure if more is required at CNF with the Brazilian economy still struggling to take off. There is a reason why AA left CNF.
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JJ777
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:50 am

Jomar777 wrote:
JJ777 wrote:
lhrsfosyd91 wrote:
Alliances are a legacy of the past. Joint ventures are what matters these days.

I guess AA has only got Gol to get in bed with?


AA has already opened negotiations with Gol. Just a question of time until we discover if it'll be a simple codeshare agreement or a larger JV.


Do you have a source? It would be good to follow this up.

Thanks


IIRC there was a press release from AA about this and the fact was reported by several Brazilian outlets. In fact, Gol's stock had a significant surge on IBOVESPA since Friday afternoon when this was first reported.
 
RCS763AV
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Re: Azul to join Avianca, Copa and United's partnership

Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:34 pm

SJOtoLIR wrote:
RCS763AV wrote:
AV and Azul are already cooperating. An extensive codeshare agreement covering 27 destinations within Brazil and all of AV's network was signed a month ago.

Based on the above sentence, that demonstrates how important is the inner Brazilian market for Avianca mainline.
The point is that its own airline named Avianca Brasil collapsed catastrophically before, but they're even doing more business there, based on the brand new AV-AD agreement as poiting out above.
The main topic of the current thread states about new ways of cooperation between the three mentioned airlines and Azul for the US market.
My interpretation is the AV code later, in selected US flights to the United States on AD, especially heading to Ft. Lauderdale and Orlando.

Regards.


Yes. Any latin airline which doesn't tend to the Brazilian market is basically not serving 50% of the South American flying public. It's all volume with Brazil. I'k sure that once the JV is approved AV and AD will further their relationship.

Now, regarding your comment of AV Brazil, please bear in mind that Avianca Holdings did not own any shares in Avianca Brasil. They were owned by an umbrella corporation called Synergy Group and the latter used the Avianca brand via a licensing agreement.

It was not a Lufthansa-Austrian Airlines kind of relation. More like a Frontier Airlines - Wizzair kind of relation. If AV had had anything to do directly with the O6 fiasco it would have surely brought the whole organization down.

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