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olivier757
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CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:21 pm

Of course this was triggered by the BA strike, and LHR will still be ahead on full year numbers, but this shows the gap is closing. FRA isnt far either.
Is that the first time ever LHR is not the busiest airport in Europe?

Pax Figures for September 2019:

CDG 6,819,263 (+6.1% year to date)
LHR 6,777,115 (+0.7% year to date)
FRA 6,707,982 (+2.3% year to date)
AMS 6,493,481 (+0.9% year to date)

(This is for pax numbers, in terms of airport movements, CDG was busier than LHR in the late 2000s)

https://www.parisaeroport.fr/docs/defau ... 5a00fdbd_2

https://www.heathrow.com/company/invest ... statistics
 
by738
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:38 pm

I don't think LHR will be losing any sleep over this scenario in a single one month period with obvious circumstances...
 
devron
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:06 pm

FRA and CDG can grow. AMS (political) and LHR (Runway) are slot restricted so they will lose out. That is how things are. Peronally I still rather transfer in AMS then FRA, LHR, or CDG.
 
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mercure1
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:42 pm

I would keep my eye on new IST -- 6,799,600 for Sept 2019.
mercure f-wtcc
 
Mboyle1988
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:43 pm

Why is AMS restricted politically?
 
Kilopond
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:04 pm

Mboyle1988 wrote:
Why is AMS restricted politically?


The number of annual movements has been capped, a strict quota is in force.

https://www.schiphol.nl/en/cargo/page/s ... explained/
 
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eastafspot
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:12 pm

What about the profits for each airport?
In today's world, that's what only matter tbh....
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lightsaber
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:21 pm

mercure1 wrote:
I would keep my eye on new IST -- 6,799,600 for Sept 2019.


First, impressive. Second, do you have a link? That implies healthy growth.

Although I see domestic traffic suffering. Is this due to the airport move?

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/economy/turkey ... ic/1605682

But it implies passing CDG after the 3rd runway.

Lightsaber
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Cointrin330
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:45 pm

CDG is hands down the worst major hub airport in Europe.
 
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MrBren
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:41 am

The new terminal 4, with a capacity up to the 30 million passengers, will be a major boost for CDG.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:46 am

MrBren wrote:
The new terminal 4, with a capacity up to the 30 million passengers, will be a major boost for CDG.


If it ever gets approved.... like everything else related to this airport it will be a hard sell to the NIMBYs.
 
passyflyer
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:10 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
CDG is hands down the worst major hub airport in Europe.


They have improved significantly in the past few years. So has Air France. I no longer avoid CDG, my last experience has been very positive. Quick transfer times between terminals, no wait times at immigration and at security check and even clean restrooms. And that was in August which is during peak travel season.

I think FRA is now the worst of the major hubs. Lufthansa are complaining all the time .... and rightfully so.
 
stylo777
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:19 am

passyflyer wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
CDG is hands down the worst major hub airport in Europe.


They have improved significantly in the past few years. So has Air France. I no longer avoid CDG, my last experience has been very positive. Quick transfer times between terminals, no wait times at immigration and at security check and even clean restrooms. And that was in August which is during peak travel season.

I think FRA is now the worst of the major hubs. Lufthansa are complaining all the time .... and rightfully so.

I agree, as long as you stick to Air France the overall airport experience in CDG is getting better and better.
In particular I like terminal 2E with mainly US departures (380/777...). Very modern design, airy, clean and everything you need is there.
 
TurkishSky
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:32 am

mercure1 wrote:
I would keep my eye on new IST -- 6,799,600 for Sept 2019.


6,699,600
Flown 0B 4I 9U A3 AA AB AF AZ BA BD BR CA CU CX EI EK FR HV JK JP JU KK KL KM LH LX MA ME MS NG OA OK QR OS RJ RO SA SK SQ SR SU UA VY YM
 
mchei
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:46 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
CDG is hands down the worst major hub airport in Europe.


I can’t agree more...
F70-F100-E145-E170-E190-319-320-321-735–736-737-738-752-763–742-744-333-343-ATR72-Metroliner-Saab2000-Lockheed Electra-C172-C182-C182RG-MD11
 
Blerg
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:56 am

mchei wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
CDG is hands down the worst major hub airport in Europe.


I can’t agree more...


What's so horrible about it?
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:00 am

passyflyer wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
CDG is hands down the worst major hub airport in Europe.


They have improved significantly in the past few years. So has Air France. I no longer avoid CDG, my last experience has been very positive. Quick transfer times between terminals, no wait times at immigration and at security check and even clean restrooms. And that was in August which is during peak travel season.

I think FRA is now the worst of the major hubs. Lufthansa are complaining all the time .... and rightfully so.


No wait times at security in CDG probably have to do with the time of the day you were going through, securirty checkpoints for connecting pax are always heavily crowded both in CDG and FRA, that's the worst of both airports from my experience.

I'm interested to know what's LH complaining specifically about FRA all the time, they are pushing for expansion in FRA (new terminal) which is what AF push for in CDG, BA in LHR and KL in AMS. All major carriers would love to have unlimited capacity in their main hubs.
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
DSH8, CS1,CS3
 
Blerg
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:09 am

upperdeckfan wrote:
passyflyer wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
CDG is hands down the worst major hub airport in Europe.


They have improved significantly in the past few years. So has Air France. I no longer avoid CDG, my last experience has been very positive. Quick transfer times between terminals, no wait times at immigration and at security check and even clean restrooms. And that was in August which is during peak travel season.

I think FRA is now the worst of the major hubs. Lufthansa are complaining all the time .... and rightfully so.


No wait times at security in CDG probably have to do with the time of the day you were going through, securirty checkpoints for connecting pax are always heavily crowded both in CDG and FRA, that's the worst of both airports from my experience.

I'm interested to know what's LH complaining specifically about FRA all the time, they are pushing for expansion in FRA (new terminal) which is what AF push for in CDG, BA in LHR and KL in AMS. All major carriers would love to have unlimited capacity in their main hubs.


I think LH is complaining the most about FR in FRA. lol
Other than that I think they are bothered with the airport becoming extremely overcrowded in summer months. It's not uncommon for planes to wait 30 to 45 minutes before a parking position/gate opens up. Delays are extremely common and luggage quite often doesn't make it in time.
 
mchei
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:17 am

Blerg wrote:
mchei wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
CDG is hands down the worst major hub airport in Europe.


I can’t agree more...


What's so horrible about it?


Taxi times can be horrible but that equally applies to FRA and it’s worse at AMS.
CDG in some corners looks like as if nothing has happened in the last 25 years. Dated, dirty, unpleasant.
Public transportation to CDG is something I really don’t like. The worst idea is to take a taxi.
Signage still is confusing and sometimes you find yourself running circles.
The carpet in some areas is disgusting.
Don’t get me wrong please. Frankfurt is a nightmare as well but Charles de Gaulle-Roissy really is one experience for itself. I heard Germans calling this place Schei* de Gaulle - which basically is the same as Sh*ithole for Schiphol :)
F70-F100-E145-E170-E190-319-320-321-735–736-737-738-752-763–742-744-333-343-ATR72-Metroliner-Saab2000-Lockheed Electra-C172-C182-C182RG-MD11
 
Blerg
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:21 am

mchei wrote:
Blerg wrote:
mchei wrote:

I can’t agree more...


What's so horrible about it?


Taxi times can be horrible but that equally applies to FRA and it’s worse at AMS.
CDG in some corners looks like as if nothing has happened in the last 25 years. Dated, dirty, unpleasant.
Public transportation to CDG is something I really don’t like. The worst idea is to take a taxi.
Signage still is confusing and sometimes you find yourself running circles.
The carpet in some areas is disgusting.
Don’t get me wrong please. Frankfurt is a nightmare as well but Charles de Gaulle-Roissy really is one experience for itself. I heard Germans calling this place Schei* de Gaulle - which basically is the same as Sh*ithole for Schiphol :)


Thank you! It's been ages since I went through CDG, I mostly go through FRA as I'm used to the mess there.
 
mchei
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:20 am

Blerg wrote:

Thank you! It's been ages since I went through CDG, I mostly go through FRA as I'm used to the mess there.


Try MUC! In many ways that is a far more pleasant experience. It seems that LH is trying to make connections more diverse instead of routing through FRA only.
F70-F100-E145-E170-E190-319-320-321-735–736-737-738-752-763–742-744-333-343-ATR72-Metroliner-Saab2000-Lockheed Electra-C172-C182-C182RG-MD11
 
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777222LR
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:36 am

mchei wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Thank you! It's been ages since I went through CDG, I mostly go through FRA as I'm used to the mess there.


Try MUC! In many ways that is a far more pleasant experience. It seems that LH is trying to make connections more diverse instead of routing through FRA only.



I've noticed this too, when looking at bookings from the US. About 50/50 Lufthansa wants to route me through MUC for connecting flights throughout Europe. When connecting to ME/Asia, Frankfurt is more likely given the destinations available there.
 
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777222LR
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:36 am

mchei wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Thank you! It's been ages since I went through CDG, I mostly go through FRA as I'm used to the mess there.


Try MUC! In many ways that is a far more pleasant experience. It seems that LH is trying to make connections more diverse instead of routing through FRA only.



I've noticed this too, when looking at bookings from the US. About 50/50 Lufthansa wants to route me through MUC for connecting flights throughout Europe. When connecting to ME/Asia, Frankfurt is more likely given the destinations available there.
 
airbazar
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:43 pm

by738 wrote:
I don't think LHR will be losing any sleep over this scenario in a single one month period with obvious circumstances...

You can bet they are very worried. Why do you think they want a 3rd runway? They are a business and like any business they make money by growing the business. In the last couple of years their growth has been one of the slowest in Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... _in_Europe
With airlines phasing out their A380s in the near future and the inability to add more slots that will only make them worry even more.

Cointrin330 wrote:
CDG is hands down the worst major hub airport in Europe.

I have no idea how CDG is outside of AF's terminal but I found the experience to be one of the best in Europe. I've used it only twice in the last 5 years, once connecting from the U.S. to India and once in and out of Paris. Both experiences were very good. Probably my favorite in Europe of all the major hubs. MUC T2 is a close second but it's also a much smaller airport so not a fair comparison.
 
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AirAfreak
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:50 pm

That argument of CDG being the worst connecting hub is as old as time itself. As a passenger utilizing the AF CDG2 hub since 1993, it astounds me to read these complaints in 2019. I don’t understand how anyone could end up in “circles” and being lost unless they are drunk, oblivious, and/or completely stupid with reading comprehension.

Everybody knows that AF (mostly) issues connecting airport ticket jackets at check-in with the notation of the arrival terminal and connecting departure hall.

AF lists the connecting flight information prior to landing on the main screens and personal television screens (depending on aircraft) and plays the CDG arrivals video, too!

The AF Magazine even lists the airport map for passenger convenience. Actually, when the AF magazine titled, “Atlas,” also listed an airport map.

From my teenage years during the 1990’s flying AF since 1993; now in 2019 at age 40, I never had an issue navigating CDG as a connecting passenger. Korean and English are my native languages so it seems clear the passengers making those complaints have no sense of direction or make little effort for planning.
Korean Air | Excellence in Flight.
 
jetwet1
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:07 pm

The only issue I have had with CDG is the wait time for luggage, other than that in many ways it's better than LHR.
 
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DL747400
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:14 pm

Blerg wrote:
mchei wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
CDG is hands down the worst major hub airport in Europe.


I can’t agree more...


What's so horrible about it?


:arrow: If you are connecting within 2E or within 2F, then you are fine. But if you are arriving in one and connecting to the other (such as arriving 2E and departing 2F), then good luck.

:arrow: And if you are arriving at a hardstand parking position, I say more good luck as this will only add to the time required between flights.

:arrow: If everything is running smoothly you may say "Well now, this isn't so bad?!" And then you reach passport control. It is typical to find that only 2 or 3 booths at passport control are staffed (out of a dozen) which means a long line of several hundred passengers trying to make their connections. Passport control is clearly the bottleneck and the weak link in the transfer system.

:arrow: Wayfinding signage is dreadful (is this a French thing?) and I totally agree with what someone else said earlier that if you are not on your toes you may find that you are going in circles.

Granted, the entire CDG transfer passenger experience does get a bit easier and less stressful each time you survive it, but I would never recommend a CDG connection to anyone. On a positive note, the French seem to be getting progressively nicer and more friendly with each of my several transfer visits in recent years.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
FlySSC
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:22 pm

Actually, most of people complaining about CDG have never been there or just one time in their life 25 years ago.... and they just keep on repeating what they heard or read here and there....
CDG may be not the best Hub in the world but it is also very far from being the worst ...

Connecting at CDG2E between AF and ST partners is very easy and much easier than connecting in LHR, AMS, DXB, LAX or JFK.

CDG has 8 Terminals : CDG 1 (the original one), then 2A, 2B, 2C. 2D, 2E, 2F and CDG T3.

Some are easier than others, cleaner and/or more modern. Connecting between CDG1 and 2A for example can be dreadful.... and services provided in the terminals can vary from very poor in T3 to full in 2E.
 
Blerg
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:40 pm

mchei wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Thank you! It's been ages since I went through CDG, I mostly go through FRA as I'm used to the mess there.


Try MUC! In many ways that is a far more pleasant experience. It seems that LH is trying to make connections more diverse instead of routing through FRA only.


Yes, MUC is wonderful but I prefer it for European connections. I prefer FRA because the 747 is based there. :D
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:41 pm

FlySSC wrote:

Connecting at CDG2E between AF and ST partners is very easy and much easier than connecting in LHR, AMS, DXB, LAX or JFK.

CDG has 8 Terminals : CDG 1 (the original one), then 2A, 2B, 2C. 2D, 2E, 2F and CDG T3.

Some are easier than others, cleaner and/or more modern. Connecting between CDG1 and 2A for example can be dreadful.... and services provided in the terminals can vary from very poor in T3 to full in 2E.


An issue is that not all ST partners operate out of 2E and 2F, SU and OK for example don't
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
DSH8, CS1,CS3
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:46 pm

777222LR wrote:
mchei wrote:
Blerg wrote:

Thank you! It's been ages since I went through CDG, I mostly go through FRA as I'm used to the mess there.


Try MUC! In many ways that is a far more pleasant experience. It seems that LH is trying to make connections more diverse instead of routing through FRA only.



I've noticed this too, when looking at bookings from the US. About 50/50 Lufthansa wants to route me through MUC for connecting flights throughout Europe. When connecting to ME/Asia, Frankfurt is more likely given the destinations available there.


I love to connect in MUC but unfortunately it fits when you are originating on a large market or UA hub, but there much limited options to use MUC if you are going to a second tier european city or originating in non-UA hub such as DFW, SEA or ATL to name a few.
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
DSH8, CS1,CS3
 
DAL763ER
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:49 pm

I'd say FRA (T2D at least) is much worse than CDG. Security at FRA is always slow and they don't seem to want to work (one employee one time threw a fit and the other employees started arguing with her instead of doing their job). I've been going through FRA T2D every week for the past 3 months and it makes any other airport feel like a breeze (especially LHR where I've never had to wait more than 10 minutes in weekly flights over the past 10 years).
 
Bhoy
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:49 pm

FlySSC wrote:
Actually, most of people complaining about CDG have never been there or just one time in their life 25 years ago.... and they just keep on repeating what they heard or read here and there....
CDG may be not the best Hub in the world but it is also very far from being the worst ...

Connecting at CDG2E between AF and ST partners is very easy and much easier than connecting in LHR, AMS, DXB, LAX or JFK.

CDG has 8 Terminals : CDG 1 (the original one), then 2A, 2B, 2C. 2D, 2E, 2F and CDG T3.

Some are easier than others, cleaner and/or more modern. Connecting between CDG1 and 2A for example can be dreadful.... and services provided in the terminals can vary from very poor in T3 to full in 2E.

Have they gotten rid rid of that cowshed nonsense 2G again, then?
 
Thibault973
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:40 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:
passyflyer wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
CDG is hands down the worst major hub airport in Europe.


They have improved significantly in the past few years. So has Air France. I no longer avoid CDG, my last experience has been very positive. Quick transfer times between terminals, no wait times at immigration and at security check and even clean restrooms. And that was in August which is during peak travel season.

I think FRA is now the worst of the major hubs. Lufthansa are complaining all the time .... and rightfully so.


No wait times at security in CDG probably have to do with the time of the day you were going through, securirty checkpoints for connecting pax are always heavily crowded both in CDG and FRA, that's the worst of both airports from my experience.

I'm interested to know what's LH complaining specifically about FRA all the time, they are pushing for expansion in FRA (new terminal) which is what AF push for in CDG, BA in LHR and KL in AMS. All major carriers would love to have unlimited capacity in their main hubs.


I never understood were all the hate come from when it comes to CDG. Unless you have to use Terminal 2G, which is a pain, it's a pretty smooth experience really. I've connected in FRA and almost lost my flight because of the huge queue at security. When we asked the staff if we could jump the queue to make our flight we got literraly yelled at (something I can never imagine happening in France) and told that it wasnt their problem.
 
luckyone
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:05 pm

In reading this, I also ask about CDG "what's the big deal?" I am not the regular traveler through European airports so I don't have a second nature knowledge of the airport. I've used the airport three times...once in 2004 (through 2E just prior to its collapse). I then flew through the airport 10 years later en route to Italy and back. The 2E to 2F transition was very clearly marked (and this from someone who was still groggy from the overnight flight and a sleeping pill) and very easy to navigate. On the return flight I arrived in 2F, and departed out of the M satellite. The signs could not have been more clear. It was no better or worse than my previous experiences in AMS, MUC, VIE, FRA, etc.
 
mchei
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Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:28 pm

Thibault973 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
passyflyer wrote:

They have improved significantly in the past few years. So has Air France. I no longer avoid CDG, my last experience has been very positive. Quick transfer times between terminals, no wait times at immigration and at security check and even clean restrooms. And that was in August which is during peak travel season.

I think FRA is now the worst of the major hubs. Lufthansa are complaining all the time .... and rightfully so.


No wait times at security in CDG probably have to do with the time of the day you were going through, securirty checkpoints for connecting pax are always heavily crowded both in CDG and FRA, that's the worst of both airports from my experience.

I'm interested to know what's LH complaining specifically about FRA all the time, they are pushing for expansion in FRA (new terminal) which is what AF push for in CDG, BA in LHR and KL in AMS. All major carriers would love to have unlimited capacity in their main hubs.


I never understood were all the hate come from when it comes to CDG. Unless you have to use Terminal 2G, which is a pain, it's a pretty smooth experience really. I've connected in FRA and almost lost my flight because of the huge queue at security. When we asked the staff if we could jump the queue to make our flight we got literraly yelled at (something I can never imagine happening in France) and told that it wasnt their problem.


It’s not about hate. It’s about comparing. At least from my side. And when I compare my six or so connections, arrivals and departures in/at/from CDG to what I have experienced in AMS, ZRH, FRA or MUC, I personally find CDG the worst airport for the reasons mentioned above.
But if you go into the details, there’s good and bad things for each of the airports. Zurich for example has a fabulous lounge but the bus gates in the cellar are a nightmare: crowded and dirty. All the time.
F70-F100-E145-E170-E190-319-320-321-735–736-737-738-752-763–742-744-333-343-ATR72-Metroliner-Saab2000-Lockheed Electra-C172-C182-C182RG-MD11
 
Jetty
Posts: 1286
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:27 pm

Meanwhile ORY lost 9,5 % of it's passengers yoy, thus the Paris airports combined hardly gained passengers. Is there a reason for the big shift of passengers to CDG? AF moving flights there?
 
Thibault973
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:11 am

Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:03 am

Jetty wrote:
Meanwhile ORY lost 9,5 % of it's passengers yoy, thus the Paris airports combined hardly gained passengers. Is there a reason for the big shift of passengers to CDG? AF moving flights there?


ORY's main runway is closed for renovation until dec 2nd and unlike S17 and S16 the relief runway was kept closed due to residents complaints.

+ ZI ceased operation in early September. They operated 13 daily flights out of ORY
 
mjoelnir
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Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:05 am

My impression of connecting at the big European airports, LHR, CDG, AMS and FRA is that I avoid all of them. I find LHR the worst, than FRA, than CDG and AMS the best of the four.
Connecting between terminals in LHR is nearly undoable, it taking hours for the transport between them. Moving from T2 to T4 or T5 compares badly to for example to taking the bus to Gatwick (only a slight exaggeration)
In FRA needing to switch from T1 to T2 or vice versa takes a long distance walk, even if you count the train. Just to get there to the train and on the other side to go to the next gate again takes endless time.
Connecting in CDG changed a lot since they got the light railway, and I connect most often between T1 and somewhere at T2. The railway takes the whole loop around T2 and it pays often to hop on it even for transfering inside T2.
Connecting in AMS is best of the four. Still sometimes long ways to walk, but doable.

If I can chose one of the bigger airports to connect in Europe, I would always chose MUC.
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1804
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:57 am

Last time I connected through Paris CDG it was quite nice as they had signs leading to a place called the "Free Lounge" which was basically the lobby of the airport hotel with a nice quiet room with comfortable chairs, free wifi and some vending machines selling food and drink. There was also an area with lounge chairs that you can sleep on. It was quite easy to get around with the automatic trains. The only thing that is a bit strange about the place is the lack of windows when you get away from the gates. I felt like I was in a sort of underground world with no real reference as to where I was exactly.
 
factsonly
Posts: 2958
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:09 pm

olivier757 wrote:
Of course this was triggered by the BA strike, and LHR will still be ahead on full year numbers, but this shows the gap is closing. FRA isnt far either.
Is that the first time ever LHR is not the busiest airport in Europe?

Pax Figures for September 2019:

CDG 6,819,263 (+6.1% year to date)
LHR 6,777,115 (+0.7% year to date)
FRA 6,707,982 (+2.3% year to date)
AMS 6,493,481 (+0.9% year to date)

(This is for pax numbers, in terms of airport movements, CDG was busier than LHR in the late 2000s)

https://www.parisaeroport.fr/docs/defau ... 5a00fdbd_2

https://www.heathrow.com/company/invest ... statistics


The only noteworthy part of the above data (but not reported by the OP) is, that LHR traffic actually fell by over 200.000 passengers in one month, while the other hubs continued to grow.

- LHR - 3%
- FRA +1.3%
- AMS +1.4%
- CDG +4.8%
 
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spinotter
Posts: 793
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:42 pm

AirAfreak wrote:
That argument of CDG being the worst connecting hub is as old as time itself. As a passenger utilizing the AF CDG2 hub since 1993, it astounds me to read these complaints in 2019. I don’t understand how anyone could end up in “circles” and being lost unless they are drunk, oblivious, and/or completely stupid with reading comprehension.

Everybody knows that AF (mostly) issues connecting airport ticket jackets at check-in with the notation of the arrival terminal and connecting departure hall.

AF lists the connecting flight information prior to landing on the main screens and personal television screens (depending on aircraft) and plays the CDG arrivals video, too!

The AF Magazine even lists the airport map for passenger convenience. Actually, when the AF magazine titled, “Atlas,” also listed an airport map.

From my teenage years during the 1990’s flying AF since 1993; now in 2019 at age 40, I never had an issue navigating CDG as a connecting passenger. Korean and English are my native languages so it seems clear the passengers making those complaints have no sense of direction or make little effort for planning.


One cannot fix stupid. I've been flying into CDG since there was only Terminal 1, and never had a single problem with that airport. I watched the takeoff of the first revenue AF Concorde flight in I believe 1976 from my bicycle on the northern perimeter of CDG. A deep-throated roar that was too. People will still complain in heaven, never mind CDG!
 
airbazar
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Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:47 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
If I can chose one of the bigger airports to connect in Europe, I would always chose MUC.

MUC is not what it used to be anymore, especially if you're connecting to the U.S. Flights depart from a corner of satellite terminal in T2. If you're lucky your arriving flight gets a gate instead of a remote stand. It could be a long schlep from the arriving gate to the departing gate, up and down escalators and via the underground train, then another security checkpoint and the satellite terminal really lacks in amenities.
 
Zinu
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:24 pm

Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:24 pm

I used Terminal 2E (Hall L) and Terminal 2F (for domestic flight) earlier this year during peak hour with Air France and found them to be fairly efficient. I found the CDGVAL however to be a bit too crowded and it was a bit of a bottleneck trying to carry luggage up and down the platforms.
 
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intotheair
Posts: 1888
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:27 am

CDG’s layout was planned by a drunk child, but as long as you follow the signs, you should be fine. I even think connecting to SNCF is easy, even if it’s a little bit of a walk. 2E otherwise has everything you’d expect from a modern terminal.

LHR is chaotic but I’d probably book a connection through there as long as it’s in the same terminal.

I always thought FRA’s experience was suboptimal and prefer MUC, though it’s been a few years since I’ve been through either.
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L410Turbolet
Posts: 6232
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:50 am

FlySSC wrote:
Actually, most of people complaining about CDG have never been there or just one time in their life 25 years ago.... and they just keep on repeating what they heard or read here and there...

I have flown via CDG too many times, before I have given up about 6 years ago.
People being on strike all the time, not being able to connect airside even when traveling on SkyTeam, rude staff being annoyed to speak English, confusing signage. Seriously, why volutarily put up with CDG when AMS is much more convenient?
 
olivier757
Topic Author
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:30 pm

Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:03 am

factsonly wrote:

The only noteworthy part of the above data (but not reported by the OP) is, that LHR traffic actually fell by over 200.000 passengers in one month, while the other hubs continued to grow.

- LHR - 3%
- FRA +1.3%
- AMS +1.4%
- CDG +4.8%


IMO the monthly tendency numbers often fail to give a good overall picture of the situation, with holidays shifting year after year and other factors such as strikes.
The -3% at LHR probably will not happen again soon, unless there is another strike at BA. The new thing though, is that LHR is no longer consistently larger than CDG the way it was before:

Average monthly difference in traffic between LHR & CDG :
810,000 in 2016
710,000 in 2017
650,000 in 2018
320,000 for the first 9 months of 2019. (365,000 for the first 8 months)

I have compiled the raw data here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4446
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:25 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
FlySSC wrote:
Actually, most of people complaining about CDG have never been there or just one time in their life 25 years ago.... and they just keep on repeating what they heard or read here and there...

I have flown via CDG too many times, before I have given up about 6 years ago.
People being on strike all the time, not being able to connect airside even when traveling on SkyTeam, rude staff being annoyed to speak English, confusing signage. Seriously, why volutarily put up with CDG when AMS is much more convenient?


6 years ago it was bad. They fixed it shortly after that. Still not good, but definitely not bad. Airside connections within the Air France terminals (terminal 2) are possible and signs have been improved. After they kicked out all the ground staff with connections to ISIS and similar, baggage stopped getting stolen as well. I have had far more luck getting both myself and my luggage through CDG on short connections than at any other airport, never missed a connection or luggage there. Amsterdam is the polar opposite, lost more short connections and luggage there than anywhere else.

But the place is a real bore. Even Frankfurt is more entertaining.
 
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MrBren
Posts: 327
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:44 am

Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:31 am

VSMUT wrote:
Amsterdam is the polar opposite, lost more short connections and luggage there than anywhere else.


I fully agree on that. I will no longer connect in AMS, fed up with missing the connecting flight due to kms of taxiing and walk or arriving to destination with no luggage.
 
Thibault973
Posts: 328
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:11 am

Re: CDG busier than LHR in Sep.19, first time ever?

Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:00 pm

All the horror stories about CDG and AF yet I use AF out of CDG about 4 times a month, never had a problem, never missed a flight, never got lost and tho AF lounges (espacially the new one in 2E/M and L) are vastly superior to everything I have tried out there in terms of food and champagne offering. Mind you the only time I used LH to connect at FRA our bags never made the connection. Go figure.

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