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sergegva
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Updated: Software link suspected in Airbus A220 engine blowouts according to Reuters

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:43 pm

According to french-speaking swiss television, Swiss grounded all its A220 today, after another engine problem this morning. Source: https://www.rts.ch/info/economie/107871 ... ision.html
Last edited by SQ22 on Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
musapapaya
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after an engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:49 pm

Not sure if it’s relevant - on Saturday 12th October I was on an A220 LX390 and it was cruising at FL280. Found it a little strange that as the flight was half full. I went on FR24 later that day and noticed that the plane has never gone above this FL when it went to and came back from Madrid the same day. Unsure if it’s relevant but thought I share.
 
qolume
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after an engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:52 pm

Hmm... that FL280 is suspicious. I was on Friday on an A220 (HB-JBA) on LX1226 and we were cruising FL410.
 
leghorn
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Re: Swiss ground all its A220 after an engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:52 pm

 
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sergegva
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after an engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:53 pm

As Swiss operates the biggest A220 fleet, do you think this could cause the whole type to be grounded?
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after an engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:53 pm

Not a good look for PW
@DadCelo
 
leghorn
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:57 pm

Not good for Airbus and Bombardier who are trying to close a couple of deals at the moment.
 
akb88
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Re: Swiss ground all its A220 after an engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:59 pm

leghorn wrote:
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/swiss-kaempft-mit-grossen-problemen-beim-a220

Baltic mentioned too.


Oh man. If the type is grounded that could be a problem for Baltic. They have 20 220s with more on order and only handful of the older 737 left. Could be an issue now for a lot of their longer flights
 
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sergegva
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:05 pm

This is also a big issue for Swiss, as the A220 is half of their short and medium haul fleet. And they don't know how long will be this revision!
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after an engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:24 pm

sergegva wrote:
As Swiss operates the biggest A220 fleet, do you think this could cause the whole type to be grounded?


If regulators don't demand it and the manufacturer doesn't recommend it, it's operator's choice. I don't know that the size of Swiss' fleet is relevant in those decisions.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after an engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:37 pm

sergegva wrote:
As Swiss operates the biggest A220 fleet, do you think this could cause the whole type to be grounded?

Has the CSeries/A220 crashed and killed anybody? Not that I'm aware of.
So, why would you want to ground the fleet?

There are surely operational problems that need to be solved; but, to ground a fleet because the engine has issues every now and then is ludicrous.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after an engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:39 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
sergegva wrote:
As Swiss operates the biggest A220 fleet, do you think this could cause the whole type to be grounded?

Has the CSeries/A220 crashed and killed anybody? Not that I'm aware of.
So, why would you want to ground the fleet?

There are surely operational problems that need to be solved; but, to ground a fleet because the engine has issues every now and then is ludicrous.

And why did LX ground theirs?
 
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sergegva
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:40 pm

All LX flights from GVA are cancelled (except ZRH and JFK). First cancellation was this morning at 10:35.
Strange thing is, according to FR24, an A220 took of from GVA to LHR at 13:16, landed at 13:34 (local time), took off again at 14:38 and is currently in flight. Is that really an A220, or a replacement aircraft that is not an A220?
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:42 pm

sergegva wrote:
All LX flights from GVA are cancelled (except ZRH and JFK). First cancellation was this morning at 10:35.
Strange thing is, according to FR24, an A220 took of from GVA to LHR at 13:16, landed at 13:34 (local time), and took off again at 14:38 and is currently in flight. Is that really an A220, or is this a replacement aircraft that is not an A220?

Perhaps operating the last flight back to base.
 
runway23
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:46 pm

sergegva wrote:
All LX flights from GVA are cancelled (except ZRH and JFK). First cancellation was this morning at 10:35.
Strange thing is, according to FR24, an A220 took of from GVA to LHR at 13:16, landed at 13:34 (local time), took off again at 14:38 and is currently in flight. Is that really an A220, or a replacement aircraft that is not an A220?


It's an A220, at one point LX decided to dispatch a few aircraft from ZRH/GVA before cancelling the rest of the program.
WayexTDI wrote:
sergegva wrote:
As Swiss operates the biggest A220 fleet, do you think this could cause the whole type to be grounded?

Has the CSeries/A220 crashed and killed anybody? Not that I'm aware of.
So, why would you want to ground the fleet?

There are surely operational problems that need to be solved; but, to ground a fleet because the engine has issues every now and then is ludicrous.


Not ridiculous LX have had 8 engines failures on their A220 fleet in the past year. There is a higher incidence of failures on A220-300s than -100s (could just possibly be the difference in number in fleet) and LX does have more incidents than any other operator - which shouldn't really be surprising as they have the largest fleet.
 
artflyer
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Re: Swiss ground all its A220 after an engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:56 pm

akb88 wrote:
leghorn wrote:
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/swiss-kaempft-mit-grossen-problemen-beim-a220

Baltic mentioned too.


Oh man. If the type is grounded that could be a problem for Baltic. They have 20 220s with more on order and only handful of the older 737 left. Could be an issue now for a lot of their longer flights


They don't have any clue what to do with that overcapacity of theirs, so that may be easing this issue short term.
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:58 pm

According to Swiss media it is just a temporary grounding and first aircraft will fly from tomorrow on again. Just every engine will go through an inspection.
 
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after an engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:03 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
sergegva wrote:
As Swiss operates the biggest A220 fleet, do you think this could cause the whole type to be grounded?

Has the CSeries/A220 crashed and killed anybody? Not that I'm aware of.
So, why would you want to ground the fleet?

There are surely operational problems that need to be solved; but, to ground a fleet because the engine has issues every now and then is ludicrous.


I'm not saying the A220 should or shouldn't be grounded, but crashing isn't the only criteria for that to happen.
 
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:07 pm

Apparently a decision has been made in order to stay out of 'real trouble' ,something that can only be praised despite the operational challenges with such a big portion of a fleet being grounded for a short time. I wish all airlines would take the same attitude when it comes to flight safety. Well done LX!
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Bigfootz67
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after an engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:11 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
sergegva wrote:
As Swiss operates the biggest A220 fleet, do you think this could cause the whole type to be grounded?

Has the CSeries/A220 crashed and killed anybody? Not that I'm aware of.
So, why would you want to ground the fleet?

There are surely operational problems that need to be solved; but, to ground a fleet because the engine has issues every now and then is ludicrous.


Wow! Have we really lowered the bar that far? Imagine how much better it would have been if the Max was grounded before people died.
 
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Faro
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:41 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
According to Swiss media it is just a temporary grounding and first aircraft will fly from tomorrow on again. Just every engine will go through an inspection.




:checkmark: :checkmark:


Let's not get carried away...this is not a blanket, open-ended grounding...fair chance individual frames will start to be released to regular operations fairly soon...


Faro
Last edited by Faro on Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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SQ22
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:45 pm

Bloomberg is reporting that Swiss has grounded the fleet to carry out inspections of the turbines.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ine-faults
 
reltney
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:45 pm

Happens fairly often. Let’s stop flying and do an inspection to make sure we are not screwing something up. Lets stop using the system until we check it on all our aircraft. MD 80s after the Alaska crash....ALL MD80-90 and DC-9s got a check before it could fly again... Reversers on the 767 after the Lauda crash... we could not use them until an inspection was made. Easy in small fleets but a pain in big fleets..

Cheers

As for flying at FL280... I did A transcon in my 757 at 290 for turbulence and winds. Many reasons for lower altitudes. Autopilot inop on the 727 kept us at 280. With autopilot inop the yaw dampers were inop... you never know.
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:46 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
According to Swiss media it is just a temporary grounding and first aircraft will fly from tomorrow on again. Just every engine will go through an inspection.

So a root cause or contributory root cause was found.

I'm a Pratt fan, but 8 engine issues is a big deal.

Lightsaber
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:47 pm

HB-JCC flying from LHR to GVA diverted to to CDG today and prompted this grounding. According to FR24 the aircraft climbed to 34300ft, then started a descend to FL290 and diverted to CDG. Does this IFSD was due to another LPC problem or something else?

Edit: http://avherald.com/h?article=4ce0bb41&opt=0

Image
 
VV
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:10 pm

Why does it happen only to Swiss?
 
Guillaume787
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:14 pm

VV wrote:
Why does it happen only to Swiss?


It is my understanding a Korean A220-300 also experienced engine issues late last year:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ge-454740/
 
SEU
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:16 pm

These new generation of Engines are causing all sorts of issues across lots of new models, some 787s are still grounded due to it, the A320neo has had so many issues with delays and even issues resulting in them not being allowed to fly over 30k feet, the 737 max and its design around the engines caused 2 of them to nosedive into the ground.

When it comes to these issues, it seems that most focus on Airbus/Boeing etc but in reality when are these engine makers going to take responsibility for it? In any other industry and performance as bad as this would result in consequences.
 
Antarius
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:20 pm

VV wrote:
Why does it happen only to Swiss?


They have the largest fleet and they operate many short flights a day. Higher probability of being the one hitting the issues
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DUSZRH
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:22 pm

It’s not really grounded, they put it to an extra inspection, which takes 4 to 5 hours. That’s why you can see some flying. Maybe an update to the thread title?
 
Amiga500
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:22 pm

SEU wrote:
When it comes to these issues, it seems that most focus on Airbus/Boeing etc but in reality when are these engine makers going to take responsibility for it? In any other industry and performance as bad as this would result in consequences.


What consequences?

If RR went under because of Trent1000, P&W went under because of rotorbow on GTF and CFM went under because of coking nozzles on the Leap-1...

then just who would the airlines buy engines from?


The reason that the same companies can get away with it in aerospace is because the barrier to entry is sooo high.

China has fired billions at developing its own turbofan engines over decades and it hasn't even got both feet onto the bottom rung of the ladder yet.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:44 pm

OK, maybe I can rephrase what I said.

LX decided, on their own, to ground their own fleet; that's their choice, not the administrator's.
The 787 battery issue was involving a fire that could not be contained; comparing this to a failing engine is like comparing apples to oranges.
Unless both engines fail exactly at the same time, the chances of an A220 crashing due to double engine failure is close to statistical error. Were the RR-powered 777 ground after BA38? No.

There is no reason for an authority-mandated grounding of the fleet worldwide.
 
runway23
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:56 pm

Antarius wrote:
VV wrote:
Why does it happen only to Swiss?


They have the largest fleet and they operate many short flights a day. Higher probability of being the one hitting the issues


In terms of probability though it’s kind of weird these issues happen in majority on flights to or from GVA. There’s a good portion of the fleet based in GVA but ZRH still has a few more frames and has had less incidents.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:57 pm

Every new technology has teething issues. But 8 engines in that small a fleet is troubling.
 
stylo777
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Re: Swiss temporarily grounds its A220s after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:06 pm

HB-JCM (CS3) is in the air again and just departed ZRH for CDG.
https://www.flightradar24.com/SWR646/227cb291
 
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Revelation
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:08 pm

lightsaber wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
According to Swiss media it is just a temporary grounding and first aircraft will fly from tomorrow on again. Just every engine will go through an inspection.

So a root cause or contributory root cause was found.

I'm a Pratt fan, but 8 engine issues is a big deal.

Lightsaber

It's kind of interesting that during the A320neo glider crisis ( https://aviationweek.com/awincommercial ... ider-fleet ) we read things like "at least the GTF on the A220 is clean".

Now this.

VV wrote:
Why does it happen only to Swiss?

Korean had one reported incident: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=220372

AECM wrote:
HB-JCC flying from LHR to GVA diverted to to CDG today and prompted this grounding. According to FR24 the aircraft climbed to 34300ft, then started a descend to FL290 and diverted to CDG. Does this IFSD was due to another LPC problem or something else?

Edit: http://avherald.com/h?article=4ce0bb41&opt=0

Image

Thanks for the link.

Here's more:
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/229966
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... c#227ad6ee
https://news.aviation-safety.net/2019/1 ... spections/

FluidFlow wrote:
According to Swiss media it is just a temporary grounding and first aircraft will fly from tomorrow on again. Just every engine will go through an inspection.

That's a good decision. I wonder what they will find.
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Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:35 pm

Guillaume787 wrote:
VV wrote:
Why does it happen only to Swiss?


It is my understanding a Korean A220-300 also experienced engine issues late last year:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ge-454740/


It also happened to Air Tanzania

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1431967
 
stylo777
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Re: Swiss temporarily grounds its A220s after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:37 pm

the previously mentioned altitude issue seems to be a safety measure to avoid higher pressure on the engines.
above mentioned flight to CDG is currently cruising at FL27 and other flights in that area are on higher altitudes which would exclude weather related low-level cruise.
 
T4thH
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Re: Swiss temporarily grounds its A220s after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:39 pm

After the Twitter source, now also Reuters.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/brief-airline-swiss-says-some-of-its-air/brief-airline-swiss-says-some-of-its-airbus-a220-planes-have-returned-to-service-after-being-grounded-for-safety-inspections-idUKZ8N23J01Q?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
* AIRLINE SWISS SAYS SOME OF ITS AIRBUS A220 PLANES HAVE RETURNED TO SERVICE AFTER BEING GROUNDED FOR SAFETY INSPECTIONS

AIRLINE SWISS SAYS EXPECTS FULL SERVICE TO BE RESUMED FROM THURSDAY AFTER GROUNDING PLANES FOR CHECKS Source text for Eikon: Further company coverage: (Reporting by John Revill)



I start to hope, that Swiss will find one or two findings at the engines, so it can be identified through an early state damage/crack, what is the issue.
It it will be interesting, which engine sub-sub type (or types) have now failed in the last 4 engine failures (3x Swiss and 1x Tanzania Air). Is it a general issue for the PW 1500G and 1900G family or is it only an issue with an sub-sub type/version of the PW1500G, only in use by Swiss and few others, so another sub sub version or already upgrade versions are fine?
 
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CarbonFibre
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Re: Swiss temporarily grounds its A220s after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:04 pm

JBI on LX358 GVA-LHR is up and running.
 
Tominjsh
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Re: Swiss ground all its A220 after an engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:04 pm

leghorn wrote:
https://www.aerotelegraph.com/swiss-kaempft-mit-grossen-problemen-beim-a220

Baltic mentioned too.


BT are using less powerful version of engine on planes as Swiss
 
LY777
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after an engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:05 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
sergegva wrote:
As Swiss operates the biggest A220 fleet, do you think this could cause the whole type to be grounded?

Has the CSeries/A220 crashed and killed anybody? Not that I'm aware of.
So, why would you want to ground the fleet?

There are surely operational problems that need to be solved; but, to ground a fleet because the engine has issues every now and then is ludicrous.


The 787 was not grounded after a crash...
It is better to ground a fleet before an accident happens
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after an engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:21 pm

musapapaya wrote:
Not sure if it’s relevant - on Saturday 12th October I was on an A220 LX390 and it was cruising at FL280. Found it a little strange that as the flight was half full. I went on FR24 later that day and noticed that the plane has never gone above this FL when it went to and came back from Madrid the same day. Unsure if it’s relevant but thought I share.

That sounds like RVSM issue preventing it to fly in RVSM airspace.

Michael
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after an engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:23 pm

LY777 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
sergegva wrote:
As Swiss operates the biggest A220 fleet, do you think this could cause the whole type to be grounded?

Has the CSeries/A220 crashed and killed anybody? Not that I'm aware of.
So, why would you want to ground the fleet?

There are surely operational problems that need to be solved; but, to ground a fleet because the engine has issues every now and then is ludicrous.


The 787 was not grounded after a crash...
It is better to ground a fleet before an accident happens


Depends on the specifics and what is understood about them. By your standard, we should just leave them in a hangar and gawk at them.

GF
 
mrbots
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Re: Swiss temporarily grounds its A220s after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:42 pm

The FAA dialed back the ETOPS on some of the Trent 1000 787s last year. Has there been any talk on dialing back or pulling the ETOPS on this or the GTF NEO?
 
N212R
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:51 pm

Guillaume787 wrote:
It is my understanding a Korean A220-300 also experienced engine issues late last year:


Not forgetting Air Tanzania from several weeks ago.
 
SwissCanuck
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Re: Swiss temporarily grounds its A220s after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:01 pm

mrbots wrote:
The FAA dialed back the ETOPS on some of the Trent 1000 787s last year. Has there been any talk on dialing back or pulling the ETOPS on this or the GTF NEO?


I think that's pretty much a certainty at this point unless the issue is understood and predictable to an extreme degree.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after an engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:51 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
sergegva wrote:
As Swiss operates the biggest A220 fleet, do you think this could cause the whole type to be grounded?

Has the CSeries/A220 crashed and killed anybody? Not that I'm aware of.
So, why would you want to ground the fleet?

There are surely operational problems that need to be solved; but, to ground a fleet because the engine has issues every now and then is ludicrous.


If it does turn out to be the same issue with the engines ground till checked as it appears to be a proper response. Credit to Swiss. But to say no need to ground because it has not crashed and killed anybody yet would be a very bad statement for any Airline to make or policy to take.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Swiss grounded all its A220 after an engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:54 pm

LY777 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
sergegva wrote:
As Swiss operates the biggest A220 fleet, do you think this could cause the whole type to be grounded?

Has the CSeries/A220 crashed and killed anybody? Not that I'm aware of.
So, why would you want to ground the fleet?

There are surely operational problems that need to be solved; but, to ground a fleet because the engine has issues every now and then is ludicrous.


The 787 was not grounded after a crash...
It is better to ground a fleet before an accident happens

The 787 battery fires would have led to a certain crash had it been allowed to propagate (and it would have propagated, that's the nature of a fire); the remedy was a necessity.
The GTF shut-downs would not lead to a certain crash; the planes were certified to fly on one engine safely.

ETOPS rating will most likely be reduced (and it should); but fleet grounding is not a necessity.
As of right now, only extra inspections are mandated; an AD will most likely follow once the defect is identified and cured. But a grounding is unwarranted at this point.
 
Karlsands
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Re: Swiss temporarily grounds its A220s after another engine problem

Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:03 pm

Has Delta has any shutdowns or engine issues as of now ?

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