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AC77X
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Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:33 pm

An ambitious hacking operation was in service to assist in the development of the C919 in an effort to manufacture all parts in China. Various suppliers were attacked, including GE, Safran, Honeywell, etc. These hackers also brought malware with them, including one called "Sakula" which was specifically made for this purpose.

The first article says that the engine that the C919 will use, the CJ-1000AX, is very similar to the LEAP 1C and X. :scratchchin: hOw SuRpRiSiNg!!11!!

https://www.zdnet.com/article/building- ... port-says/
https://www.rollcall.com/news/policy/ha ... eport-says
Last edited by AC77X on Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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litz
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:40 pm

And if this news honestly surprises you in the least, I've got a bridge for sale. Cheap.
 
YYZatcboy
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:41 pm

Surprising nobody...
DH1/3/4 MD11/88 L1011 A319/20/21/30/50/80 717 727 735/6/7/8/9 744 762/3 77E/W 788/789 E40/75/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150
J/S DH8D 736/7/8 763
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:43 pm

C919, the "shanzhai" aircraft. Started with shanzhai phones, then shanzhai bullet trains, now aircraft. Patent infringement litigation will likely keep the C919 out of Western markets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanzhai

Pursue an IP infringement case in China, against a Chinese company ? ...
"In March 1992 Chinese authorities found that Shenzhen reflective materials institute had copied 650,000 Microsoft Corporation holograms. The institute was found to be guilty of trademark infringement against Microsoft, but was fined a mere US$252. Losses to Microsoft as a result of the infringement are estimated at US$30 million."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellect ... y_in_China

Forced technology transfer was an early feature of post-WWII Japan and Korea (esp. in semiconductors), but after JP and KR domestic companies started creating IP they wanted protected, the playing field leveled. If, not when, that will happen in China .....
Last edited by WPvsMW on Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
aumaverick
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:00 pm

China has gone from 'Fake it til you make it.' to quickly adopting the 'Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.' and now 'If you can't beat em...steal it?'
Case in point: The Y-10. Then moving up in the world to the Y-8s and ARJ21s. Now, the C919/29/39s. Despite their success at stealing IP, they still haven't managed to steal the basics for manufacturing supply chain, logistics, and quality assurance needed to bring a full aircraft program to fruition.
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WPvsMW
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:05 pm

aumaverick wrote:
China has gone from 'Fake it til you make it.' to quickly adopting the 'Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.' and now 'If you can't beat em...steal it?'
Case in point: The Y-10. Then moving up in the world to the Y-8s and ARJ21s. Now, the C919/29/39s. Despite their success at stealing IP, they still haven't managed to steal the basics for manufacturing supply chain, logistics, and quality assurance needed to bring a full aircraft program to fruition.


But manufacturing supply chain, logistics, and quality assurance in CN are now equal to those in the West in electronics, as long as the "supervisor is around".
Reverse engineering ("steal it") has been part of the methodology, even in the "fake it til you make" phase.
https://www.amazon.com/Hardware-Hacker- ... 624&sr=8-1

There's a famous copyright infringement case (U.S., Cisco vs. Huawei) in which the stolen source code in evidence still contained Cisco's copyright notice.
Last edited by WPvsMW on Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Karlsands
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:09 pm

That’s china’s specialty
 
luckyone
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:33 pm

I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:45 pm

This surprises absolutely NO ONE. You must be living under a rock if you think plane was developed indigenously and without penetrating tightly guarded troves of intellectual property-that is China's specialty.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

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AC77X
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:47 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
This surprises absolutely NO ONE. You must be living under a rock if you think plane was developed indigenously and without penetrating tightly guarded troves of intellectual property-that is China's specialty.

Everyone can calm down, now. Of course its not like my entire world has been changed like some of you are making it out to be. :roll:
 
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:48 pm

Known. Honeywell had a Honeypot of false drawings (incorrect or missing coatings,/heat treat out if order, odd software, wrong configuration files). I took a security class on this. Honeywell charged extra to fix the issues the Chinese induced. There was apparently a setup in the anti-lock braking that prevented braking and everything had non-sensical coatings and heat treats... I saw a picture of the Chrome plated brake rotors. Pretty... and slick with visible cracks...

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flilot
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:51 pm

Welcome to Western media, where attacking anything Eastern is a speciality.

China built something? ZOMGZZZ THEYZ COPIED IT FROM SOMEONEZ ELSEZ THEYZ MUSTZ BEZ HACKINGZ USZ!!
An innocent Russian calmly drinking his vodka in his snowed in hut? ZOMGZZZ THEYZ COPIED IT FROM SOMEONEZ ELSEZ THEYZ MUSTZ BEZ HACKINGZ USZ ANDZ INZFLUENZING OURZ ELECTIONZ!!

Sad thing is, a large majority of Western people watching / reading mainstream media lap it up like a thirsty dog with 10 water bowls.
Think for yourselves rather than blindly accepting and regurgitating your countries line on certain other countries, or at least research what you're being told before blindly repeating it as gospel.
 
stburke
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:58 pm

flilot wrote:
Welcome to Western media, where attacking anything Eastern is a speciality.

China built something? ZOMGZZZ THEYZ COPIED IT FROM SOMEONEZ ELSEZ THEYZ MUSTZ BEZ HACKINGZ USZ!!
An innocent Russian calmly drinking his vodka in his snowed in hut? ZOMGZZZ THEYZ COPIED IT FROM SOMEONEZ ELSEZ THEYZ MUSTZ BEZ HACKINGZ USZ ANDZ INZFLUENZING OURZ ELECTIONZ!!

Sad thing is, a large majority of Western people watching / reading mainstream media lap it up like a thirsty dog with 10 water bowls.
Think for yourselves rather than blindly accepting and regurgitating your countries line on certain other countries, or at least research what you're being told before blindly repeating it as gospel.


Wow, if only there were prime examples of IP theft by China...

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/28/1-in-5- ... -cnbc.html

https://www.chicagotribune.com/business ... story.html

And so on, and so on.
 
grbauc
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:07 pm

flilot wrote:
Welcome to Western media, where attacking anything Eastern is a speciality.

China built something? ZOMGZZZ THEYZ COPIED IT FROM SOMEONEZ ELSEZ THEYZ MUSTZ BEZ HACKINGZ USZ!!
An innocent Russian calmly drinking his vodka in his snowed in hut? ZOMGZZZ THEYZ COPIED IT FROM SOMEONEZ ELSEZ THEYZ MUSTZ BEZ HACKINGZ USZ ANDZ INZFLUENZING OURZ ELECTIONZ!!

Sad thing is, a large majority of Western people watching / reading mainstream media lap it up like a thirsty dog with 10 water bowls.
Think for yourselves rather than blindly accepting and regurgitating your countries line on certain other countries, or at least research what you're being told before blindly repeating it as gospel.



Unfortunately when I visit Eastern nations they are rife with knock off items Luggage shirts ect... that are made for Ebay and all kinds of markets. It's legal in china to make these coins has long has they don't sell them in China. Its easy to over generalize I agree with you on that how ever there is SOLID proof in the Coin trade that I am involved in.
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ITSTours
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:08 pm

It is very well known that Huawei was built entirely on the hacked intellectual properties -- one of the hacked victim, Nortel, has collapsed. Huawei also copied Cisco's technical documents including typos.

Now an airplane is a lot more difficult to build compared to a network device...
 
VSMUT
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:19 pm

aumaverick wrote:
Case in point: The Y-10. Then moving up in the world to the Y-8s and ARJ21s.


The Y-10 is not a copy of anything. Anyone with 2 eyes can see that. It shares the same engines and engine pylons as the 707, but they are not copies, they were purchased directly from Boeing as interim measures to get the prototypes in the air.

The Y-8 was reverse engineered in the wake of the Sino-Soviet split, no secrets there (or why).

The ARJ-21 uses a modified MD-80 fuselage, but the wings are new (albeit Ukrainian) and they also mated it with new engines. Say what you want about the final product, but a mere copy it is not.
 
DFW17L
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:37 pm

luckyone wrote:
I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!

Next line, “Here are your winnings, sir”. How do you say that in Mandarin?
 
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Revelation
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:47 pm

Some of the tech may have come from Airbus suppliers:

European aerospace giant Airbus has been hit by a series of attacks by hackers who targeted its suppliers in their search for commercial secrets, security sources told AFP, adding they suspected a China link.
...
Hackers targeted British engine-maker Rolls-Royce and the French technology consultancy and supplier Expleo, as well as two other French contractors working for Airbus that AFP was unable to identify.

Ref: https://www.france24.com/en/20190926-ai ... -suppliers
Last edited by Revelation on Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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gatibosgru
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:50 pm

Anyone actually shocked that China does this?
Last edited by gatibosgru on Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:54 pm

VSMUT wrote:
The Y-10 is not a copy of anything. Anyone with 2 eyes can see that. It shares the same engines and engine pylons as the 707, but they are not copies, they were purchased directly from Boeing as interim measures to get the prototypes in the air.


From Wiki - The Shanghai Y-10 or Yun-10 (Chinese: 运-10; literally: 'Transporter-10') is a four engined narrow-body jet airliner developed in the 1970s by the Shanghai Aircraft Research Institute. The plane used Boeing's 707-320C as reference, designed according to Federal Aviation Regulation (Part 25, 1970 edition).

It may not be an exact copy, but it does reference the 707.
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WPvsMW
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:00 am

flilot wrote:
Welcome to Western media, where attacking anything Eastern is a speciality.

China built something? ZOMGZZZ THEYZ COPIED IT FROM SOMEONEZ ELSEZ THEYZ MUSTZ BEZ HACKINGZ USZ!!
An innocent Russian calmly drinking his vodka in his snowed in hut? ZOMGZZZ THEYZ COPIED IT FROM SOMEONEZ ELSEZ THEYZ MUSTZ BEZ HACKINGZ USZ ANDZ INZFLUENZING OURZ ELECTIONZ!!

Sad thing is, a large majority of Western people watching / reading mainstream media lap it up like a thirsty dog with 10 water bowls.
Think for yourselves rather than blindly accepting and regurgitating your countries line on certain other countries, or at least research what you're being told before blindly repeating it as gospel.


Provide a link, please, about "lapping it up", "blindly accepting", and "regurgitating".

I have clients with manufacturing partners in Shenzhen and elsewhere in Guangdong. I know the process and results of shanzhai first hand. Discovering your CN manufacturing partner is secretly building your product for the grey market, or is using salvaged parts, etc., is not "lapping it up", "blindly accepting", and "regurgitating". Rather, it's the "learning curve", and why my clients can spend more on test jigs and test procedures for a product than they spend on designing the product. Plus, the manufacturing partner knows there are secret double checks in the test data so faking test data will be discovered, which triggers liquidated damages and contract termination.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:49 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
The Y-10 is not a copy of anything. Anyone with 2 eyes can see that. It shares the same engines and engine pylons as the 707, but they are not copies, they were purchased directly from Boeing as interim measures to get the prototypes in the air.


From Wiki - The Shanghai Y-10 or Yun-10 (Chinese: 运-10; literally: 'Transporter-10') is a four engined narrow-body jet airliner developed in the 1970s by the Shanghai Aircraft Research Institute. The plane used Boeing's 707-320C as reference, designed according to Federal Aviation Regulation (Part 25, 1970 edition).

It may not be an exact copy, but it does reference the 707.


It is a vague reference made to an unknown source that can't be verified. It likely means they wanted to create an aircraft with a similar performance and role, not that they were in any way inspired. The two aircraft don't even look similar in any way,and according to much more recent books, the airframe and systems are completely different too. It might as well be described as a VC-10 with wing mounted engines.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:17 am

So what, if you think US/EU/insert most countries companies and govt don't hack then you're living in a dream world.
 
mildaiv
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:42 am

Kiwirob wrote:
So what, if you think US/EU/insert most countries companies and govt don't hack then you're living in a dream world.

Just google history of Hollywood. China do what they think is best for them as everybody else does.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:03 am

No surprise. Absolutely sickening.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:36 am

Kiwirob wrote:
So what, if you think US/EU/insert most countries companies and govt don't hack then you're living in a dream world.


:checkmark:

It has been a big issue in recent times that the US spies on European firms and hands out the gleaned information to US firms. All that NSA espionage, it wasn't just Merkels phones they stole data from. It was everything they could get their hands on. It is one big nationalised corporate espionage scheme.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:42 am

VSMUT wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
So what, if you think US/EU/insert most countries companies and govt don't hack then you're living in a dream world.


:checkmark:

It has been a big issue in recent times that the US spies on European firms and hands out the gleaned information to US firms. All that NSA espionage, it wasn't just Merkels phones they stole data from. It was everything they could get their hands on. It is one big nationalised corporate espionage scheme.


Link please. Granted that NSA spies on anyone of interest, but the "hands out the gleaned information to US firms." needs a link.
 
CHRISBA35X
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:30 am

Sickening but not shocking. You wouldn't get me onto a C919 if you paid me.
 
United1
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:59 am

VSMUT wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
So what, if you think US/EU/insert most countries companies and govt don't hack then you're living in a dream world.


:checkmark:

It has been a big issue in recent times that the US spies on European firms and hands out the gleaned information to US firms. All that NSA espionage, it wasn't just Merkels phones they stole data from. It was everything they could get their hands on. It is one big nationalised corporate espionage scheme.


NSA hands out information? That’s the funniest thing I’ve read on a.net lately. They are known for collecting data not letting it out.

Please provide a source for your baseless accusation...
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:33 am

Kiwirob wrote:
So what, if you think US/EU/insert most countries companies and govt don't hack then you're living in a dream world.

I think "most countries" hack.

I don't think "most countries" use state assets to perform large scale industrial espionage for the benefit of their industry the way China does.

I've attended at least one sensitive meeting where a CIO of a large and sensitive US firm walked through how they were hacked by China.

It is nation-state scale industrial espionage.

Now they brazenly demand full access to intellectual property as a condition for access to their markets, while ours are wide open to them without such restriction.

It is just showing in general that we are wising up to the hacking, and now CN has to ask for the keys to the front door instead of breaking in to the back door.

The AFP link I posted above shows that Airbus itself is too hard to hack, so they break in to 2nd and 3rd tier suppliers instead.
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VSMUT
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:41 am

United1 wrote:
NSA hands out information? That’s the funniest thing I’ve read on a.net lately. They are known for collecting data not letting it out.

Please provide a source for your baseless accusation...


WPvsMW wrote:
Link please. Granted that NSA spies on anyone of interest, but the "hands out the gleaned information to US firms." needs a link.


Baseless accusations coming up:

https://www.economist.com/special-repor ... ecret-past

According to a European Parliament report, published in 2001, America's National Security Agency (NSA) intercepted faxes and phone calls between Airbus, Saudi Arabian Airlines and the Saudi government in early 1994. The NSA found that Airbus agents were offering bribes to a Saudi official to secure a lion's share for Airbus in modernising Saudi Arabian Airlines' fleet. The planes were in a $6 billion deal that Edouard Balladur, France's then prime minister, had hoped to clinch on a visit to see King Fahd in January 1994. He went home empty-handed.


James Woolsey, then director of the Central Intelligence Agency, recounted in a newspaper article in 2000 how the American government typically reacted to intelligence of this sort. “When we have caught you [Europeans]...we go to the government you're bribing and tell its officials that we don't take kindly to such corruption,” he wrote. Apparently this (and a direct sales pitch from Bill Clinton to King Fahd) swung the aircraft part of the deal Boeing's and McDonnell Douglas's way.



https://www.bbc.com/news/25907502

the former NSA contractor said the agency would spy on big German companies that competed with US firms.


"If there is information at Siemens that they [the NSA] think would be beneficial to the national interests, not the national security, of the United States, they will go after that information and they'll take it."



Reality is, your country in particular has probably relied more on technology gleaned from other nations than any other in history. Your entire modern aviation and space industries were built upon technology gathered from Germany following WWII and the UK. It is especially priceless to see Americans bashing other nations for doing the same.
 
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:28 pm

VSMUT wrote:
United1 wrote:
NSA hands out information? That’s the funniest thing I’ve read on a.net lately. They are known for collecting data not letting it out.

Please provide a source for your baseless accusation...


WPvsMW wrote:
Link please. Granted that NSA spies on anyone of interest, but the "hands out the gleaned information to US firms." needs a link.


Baseless accusations coming up:

https://www.economist.com/special-repor ... ecret-past

According to a European Parliament report, published in 2001, America's National Security Agency (NSA) intercepted faxes and phone calls between Airbus, Saudi Arabian Airlines and the Saudi government in early 1994. The NSA found that Airbus agents were offering bribes to a Saudi official to secure a lion's share for Airbus in modernising Saudi Arabian Airlines' fleet. The planes were in a $6 billion deal that Edouard Balladur, France's then prime minister, had hoped to clinch on a visit to see King Fahd in January 1994. He went home empty-handed.


James Woolsey, then director of the Central Intelligence Agency, recounted in a newspaper article in 2000 how the American government typically reacted to intelligence of this sort. “When we have caught you [Europeans]...we go to the government you're bribing and tell its officials that we don't take kindly to such corruption,” he wrote. Apparently this (and a direct sales pitch from Bill Clinton to King Fahd) swung the aircraft part of the deal Boeing's and McDonnell Douglas's way.



https://www.bbc.com/news/25907502

the former NSA contractor said the agency would spy on big German companies that competed with US firms.


"If there is information at Siemens that they [the NSA] think would be beneficial to the national interests, not the national security, of the United States, they will go after that information and they'll take it."



Reality is, your country in particular has probably relied more on technology gleaned from other nations than any other in history. Your entire modern aviation and space industries were built upon technology gathered from Germany following WWII and the UK. It is especially priceless to see Americans bashing other nations for doing the same.

Even if I agreed with you, two wrongs do not make a right. WW2 propelled technology. The US shared and gathered.

The issue is China is stealing drawings, often out of date drawings (product improved) without understanding the design details. In aviation that is incredibly dangerous.

This is of the scale of Russia stealing RR engine designs to power the Mig-15/17/29/21. Civilian technology is easy to militarize in aerospace.

https://aviationdoctor.wordpress.com/20 ... orean-peo/

Pratt was hired for civilian helicopter, but the Chinese went straight for the military version:
https://m.ctpost.com/local/article/UTC- ... 670550.php

The issues with the ARJ-21 are classic of a copied and not developed design. While Mitsubishi had issues, for example didn't follow the latest wiring requirements, they are at least developing a modern plane.

The issue with aircraft is they must be right. Look at the RR, Pratt, SAFRAN, and early LEAP engine issues. It is hard to develop advanced technology.

If you want to go into how the BMW003 was copied by everyone, that is worthy of a tech ops thread.

Countries must protect their IP.

China is a technical kleptomaniac. When does it stop?

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WaywardMemphian
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:33 pm

AC77X wrote:
An ambitious hacking operation was in service to assist in the development of the C919 in an effort to manufacture all parts in China. Various suppliers were attacked, including GE, Safran, Honeywell, etc. These hackers also brought malware with them, including one called "Sakula" which was specifically made for this purpose.

The first article says that the engine that the C919 will use, the CJ-1000AX, is very similar to the LEAP 1C and X. :scratchchin: hOw SuRpRiSiNg!!11!!

https://www.zdnet.com/article/building- ... port-says/
https://www.rollcall.com/news/policy/ha ... eport-says



If there ever was a "no shit" thread title. It's China, it's what they do. The sooner the rest of the world decides they aren't worth the trouble and concentrate elsewhere the better off we'll all be, including the Chinese. But...greed supercedes common sense. It what they do feom airplanes down to roller coasters.
 
TheOldDude
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:38 pm

The Crowdstrike report is very detailed, I recommend that everyone read it. The attacks weren't just hacking, they also used human spies. --> https://www.crowdstrike.com/resources/wp-content/brochures/reports/huge-fan-of-your-work-intelligence-report.pdf
 
Elementalism
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:09 pm

China will be the worlds factory until they create\enforce IP law. They will always be a generation behind. Because they are stealing todays technology and taking a decade or longer to build their own. By that time the next generation stuff from the West is being delivered. And the process starts over. Long run they are only hurting themselves.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:10 pm

flilot wrote:
Welcome to Western media, where attacking anything Eastern is a speciality.

China built something? ZOMGZZZ THEYZ COPIED IT FROM SOMEONEZ ELSEZ THEYZ MUSTZ BEZ HACKINGZ USZ!!
An innocent Russian calmly drinking his vodka in his snowed in hut? ZOMGZZZ THEYZ COPIED IT FROM SOMEONEZ ELSEZ THEYZ MUSTZ BEZ HACKINGZ USZ ANDZ INZFLUENZING OURZ ELECTIONZ!!

Sad thing is, a large majority of Western people watching / reading mainstream media lap it up like a thirsty dog with 10 water bowls.
Think for yourselves rather than blindly accepting and regurgitating your countries line on certain other countries, or at least research what you're being told before blindly repeating it as gospel.


Will they lap it up like a thirsty capitalist dog?
 
Elementalism
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:16 pm

VSMUT wrote:
United1 wrote:
NSA hands out information? That’s the funniest thing I’ve read on a.net lately. They are known for collecting data not letting it out.

Please provide a source for your baseless accusation...


WPvsMW wrote:
Link please. Granted that NSA spies on anyone of interest, but the "hands out the gleaned information to US firms." needs a link.


Baseless accusations coming up:

https://www.economist.com/special-repor ... ecret-past

According to a European Parliament report, published in 2001, America's National Security Agency (NSA) intercepted faxes and phone calls between Airbus, Saudi Arabian Airlines and the Saudi government in early 1994. The NSA found that Airbus agents were offering bribes to a Saudi official to secure a lion's share for Airbus in modernising Saudi Arabian Airlines' fleet. The planes were in a $6 billion deal that Edouard Balladur, France's then prime minister, had hoped to clinch on a visit to see King Fahd in January 1994. He went home empty-handed.


James Woolsey, then director of the Central Intelligence Agency, recounted in a newspaper article in 2000 how the American government typically reacted to intelligence of this sort. “When we have caught you [Europeans]...we go to the government you're bribing and tell its officials that we don't take kindly to such corruption,” he wrote. Apparently this (and a direct sales pitch from Bill Clinton to King Fahd) swung the aircraft part of the deal Boeing's and McDonnell Douglas's way.



https://www.bbc.com/news/25907502

the former NSA contractor said the agency would spy on big German companies that competed with US firms.


"If there is information at Siemens that they [the NSA] think would be beneficial to the national interests, not the national security, of the United States, they will go after that information and they'll take it."



Reality is, your country in particular has probably relied more on technology gleaned from other nations than any other in history. Your entire modern aviation and space industries were built upon technology gathered from Germany following WWII and the UK. It is especially priceless to see Americans bashing other nations for doing the same.


Your quotes are far different than the NSA giving IP to US firms. That is the NSA having the state dept let the corrupted country know we know they are being corrupted and to knock it off. Not having them call up Boeing with the newest A350 plans.

Everybody built their space\missile programs off the German scientists post WWII. What is the problem? Think those scientists wanted to stay in broken down Germany or head off to Soviet Russia?
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:43 pm

lightsaber wrote:
This is of the scale of Russia stealing RR engine designs to power the Mig-15/17/29/21. Civilian technology is easy to militarize in aerospace.


The British government actually sold the plans for the RR Nene engine to the Soviets, which they then used on the Mig-15. That didn't turn out to be a great decision.
 
United1
Posts: 4186
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:38 pm

VSMUT wrote:
United1 wrote:
NSA hands out information? That’s the funniest thing I’ve read on a.net lately. They are known for collecting data not letting it out.

Please provide a source for your baseless accusation...


WPvsMW wrote:
Link please. Granted that NSA spies on anyone of interest, but the "hands out the gleaned information to US firms." needs a link.


Baseless accusations coming up:

https://www.economist.com/special-repor ... ecret-past

According to a European Parliament report, published in 2001, America's National Security Agency (NSA) intercepted faxes and phone calls between Airbus, Saudi Arabian Airlines and the Saudi government in early 1994. The NSA found that Airbus agents were offering bribes to a Saudi official to secure a lion's share for Airbus in modernising Saudi Arabian Airlines' fleet. The planes were in a $6 billion deal that Edouard Balladur, France's then prime minister, had hoped to clinch on a visit to see King Fahd in January 1994. He went home empty-handed.


James Woolsey, then director of the Central Intelligence Agency, recounted in a newspaper article in 2000 how the American government typically reacted to intelligence of this sort. “When we have caught you [Europeans]...we go to the government you're bribing and tell its officials that we don't take kindly to such corruption,” he wrote. Apparently this (and a direct sales pitch from Bill Clinton to King Fahd) swung the aircraft part of the deal Boeing's and McDonnell Douglas's way.



https://www.bbc.com/news/25907502

the former NSA contractor said the agency would spy on big German companies that competed with US firms.


"If there is information at Siemens that they [the NSA] think would be beneficial to the national interests, not the national security, of the United States, they will go after that information and they'll take it."



Reality is, your country in particular has probably relied more on technology gleaned from other nations than any other in history. Your entire modern aviation and space industries were built upon technology gathered from Germany following WWII and the UK. It is especially priceless to see Americans bashing other nations for doing the same.


Where does any of that talk about the NSA handing out IP rights to commercial enterprises? That’s what China does best, better than all the rest, steal IP and commercialise it for Chinese purposes.
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zakuivcustom
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:15 pm

Elementalism wrote:
China will be the worlds factory until they create\enforce IP law. They will always be a generation behind. Because they are stealing todays technology and taking a decade or longer to build their own. By that time the next generation stuff from the West is being delivered. And the process starts over. Long run they are only hurting themselves.


And this is exactly why PRC in general will never be #1 - they have to get somebody else to be #1 just so they can follow their path.

It's also risk management by American companies anyway - they know PRC will steal IP - let them steal some substandard IP or drawings that are "chabuduo", those Chinese can then "improve" upon them but will always be half generation behind.

WPvsMW wrote:
I have clients with manufacturing partners in Shenzhen and elsewhere in Guangdong. I know the process and results of shanzhai first hand. Discovering your CN manufacturing partner is secretly building your product for the grey market, or is using salvaged parts, etc., is not "lapping it up", "blindly accepting", and "regurgitating". Rather, it's the "learning curve", and why my clients can spend more on test jigs and test procedures for a product than they spend on designing the product. Plus, the manufacturing partner knows there are secret double checks in the test data so faking test data will be discovered, which triggers liquidated damages and contract termination.


Well, as long as those shanzhai product are "chabuduo", it makes my life easier as somebody who have dealt with coming up with method to detect shanzhai products.
 
Newark727
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:13 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Your entire modern aviation and space industries were built upon technology gathered from Germany following WWII and the UK.


This is a pretty blatant distortion of the facts, by the way.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:27 pm

For those not literate in Chinese, zakui has used an extremely common Chinese phrase '差不多' (chābuduō), which means something like "close enough" or "just about right", but the connotation is "don't care about the impact if what I do can pass a superficial inspection". I have a client who found that none of the internal welds had been done in a subassembly made in China, only those welds that could be seen were done. The repercussions of that chābuduō were "only" hospitalizations of the users. Chābuduō is pervasive in Chinese manufacturing... a corollary of "no guilt, only shame" as an ethical standard on individual and corporate levels. My "favorite" chābuduō is the case of adding melamine to baby formula to increase the "detected protein content". Ingestion of melamine leads to reproductive damage, or bladder or kidney stones, and bladder cancer.
 
workhorse
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:16 pm

The amount of shameless blatant racism in this thread is incredible.

To all Chinese people who are reading this:

Please, don't believe that all Westerners are like this. There are quite a few people in the West (and even in the USA) who do not want to participate in this tsunami of hate, prejudice and contempt. And amongst those who do, a lot do so because of ignorance and lack of education and knowledge. Please, try to not fall into the trap of hating us in return. Remember what Mahatma Gandhi said: "First, they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
Last edited by workhorse on Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
AC77X
Topic Author
Posts: 111
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:17 pm

workhorse wrote:
The amount of shameless blatant racism in this thread is incredible.

To all Chinese people who are reading this:

Please, don't believe that all Westerners are like this. There is quite a bit of people in the West (and even in the USA) who do not want to participate in this tsunami of hate, prejudice and contempt. And amongst those who do, a lot do so because of ignorance and lack of education and knowledge. Please, do not fall into the trap of hating is in return. Remember what Mahatma Gandhi said: "First, they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

I didn't mean to be racist in any way. Sorry if it came off like that (if its me you are talking about). I agree with what you are saying.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1811
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:48 pm

workhorse wrote:
The amount of shameless blatant racism in this thread is incredible.

To all Chinese people who are reading this:

Please, don't believe that all Westerners are like this. There are quite a few people in the West (and even in the USA) who do not want to participate in this tsunami of hate, prejudice and contempt. And amongst those who do, a lot do so because of ignorance and lack of education and knowledge. Please, try to not fall into the trap of hating us in return. Remember what Mahatma Gandhi said: "First, they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

Go tell that to the companies and their employees losing billions of dollars every year due to IP theft...
If the Chinese want to be respected worldwide (as they should, they are very smart in general), they need to clean their act first.
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3495
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:29 pm

workhorse wrote:
The amount of shameless blatant racism in this thread is incredible.

To all Chinese people who are reading this:

Please, don't believe that all Westerners are like this. There are quite a few people in the West (and even in the USA) who do not want to participate in this tsunami of hate, prejudice and contempt. And amongst those who do, a lot do so because of ignorance and lack of education and knowledge. Please, try to not fall into the trap of hating us in return. Remember what Mahatma Gandhi said: "First, they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

Should change your name to “HighHorse”

This isn’t about race, you can try to make it that way, but it isn’t. The Chinese government steals IP, fact. They distribute it to mainland businesses, fact. That isn’t racism, that is just the truth.

Racism is saying all Chinese are thieves. Which is wrong. The Chinese government is just stating the facts.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
User avatar
Revelation
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:38 pm

workhorse wrote:
The amount of shameless blatant racism in this thread is incredible.

To all Chinese people who are reading this:

Please, don't believe that all Westerners are like this. There are quite a few people in the West (and even in the USA) who do not want to participate in this tsunami of hate, prejudice and contempt. And amongst those who do, a lot do so because of ignorance and lack of education and knowledge. Please, try to not fall into the trap of hating us in return. Remember what Mahatma Gandhi said: "First, they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

Classic case of playing the victim card...

Any info that may actually refute the "Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919" topic of this thread?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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seat38a
Posts: 296
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:29 am

Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:01 pm

workhorse wrote:
The amount of shameless blatant racism in this thread is incredible.

To all Chinese people who are reading this:

Please, don't believe that all Westerners are like this. There are quite a few people in the West (and even in the USA) who do not want to participate in this tsunami of hate, prejudice and contempt. And amongst those who do, a lot do so because of ignorance and lack of education and knowledge. Please, try to not fall into the trap of hating us in return. Remember what Mahatma Gandhi said: "First, they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."


Stop your damn virtue signaling.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2252
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Re: Hacking was apparently involved with developing the C919

Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:23 pm

workhorse wrote:
The amount of shameless blatant racism in this thread is incredible.


??? There is not one racist statement in this thread, other than your quote immediately above. The thread is about industrial espionage, and asserts that China differs from other national governments that conduct industrial espionage: the PRC provides the results of PRC-sponsored industrial espionage to PRC-owned and -favored industries in China, which in turn compete with Western industries from which the trade secrets were stolen.

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