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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:02 am

Stitch wrote:
In 2002, Boeing projected the conversion price of a 747-400BCF would be around $25 million (itself a reduction of $10 million from earlier projections). In 2018, CAPA noted 747-400 conversion prices from both Boeing and IAI remained "significant" and this was dampening conversion demand, even with cheap feed stock as airlines retired their fleets en masse.

A 767-300P2F conversion averages around $14 million and an A330-200P2F is about $15 million on average with the A330-300P2F averaging around $16 million. So if a 747-400P2F is even $20 million, it's probably not an economical project, though IAI did do two such conversions for Asiana in 2017.


Keep in mind though, the Asiana conversions were only partial conversions.

They arrived at IAI already as combis, so the SCD and wiring in that area was already done. It was a much simpler job than converting a full pax frame.
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:12 am

LightningZ71 wrote:
I don't think that anyone realistically felt that the 778-F would be a near-term product with any kind of sustainable volume.

jagraham wrote:
UPS has 39 MD11s and 13 744s. FedEx has 25 MD10s and 52 MD11s. That's 129 candidates for the 77W conversion over the next decade.

Are we sure these customers will prefer conversions to new builds that come with improved engines and wings with zero time on the engines and the frames? Given the crunch that Boeing is gonna see with 779 deferrals they may be quite motivated to get 778F out the door sooner rather than later.
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:07 am

Revelation wrote:
LightningZ71 wrote:
I don't think that anyone realistically felt that the 778-F would be a near-term product with any kind of sustainable volume.

jagraham wrote:
UPS has 39 MD11s and 13 744s. FedEx has 25 MD10s and 52 MD11s. That's 129 candidates for the 77W conversion over the next decade.

Are we sure these customers will prefer conversions to new builds that come with improved engines and wings with zero time on the engines and the frames? Given the crunch that Boeing is gonna see with 779 deferrals they may be quite motivated to get 778F out the door sooner rather than later.


Doesn't 5X have a newbuild preference for reliability reasons? This has been an evolution in their thinking correct?

Would FX's significant order book mute this symbiotic add; 773P2F?

How does DHL's optimism for the economical A333P2F play into their appetite as a customer.

This leaves Amazon and B744P2F(!nose loading) operators?
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:56 am

Okcflyer wrote:

Per the above reference, conversion cost is $35MM.

If used 77W’s are going for $60MM each, that puts total at $95MM. Hopefully that includes green engines....And given these frames have lots of life left, it’s competing with new with additional volumetric capacity.

However. This beast has 15% more cargo volume then a 747F. That’s significant. And probably a big reason why Boeing wasn’t first mover as it sinks the final nails in the 748F coffin.


I do not believe that this has any effect on the 748F status - or even much on the future 777-XF. That is because this conversion provides a lower than normal cargo floor loading weight. Perfect for package carriers. Not usable in the heavy freight market; and the airlines that were buying the 748F are in the heavy freight market. I believe that the future 777-XF, and even the future 787F will have normal heavy cargo capable floor loading.

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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:33 pm

Revelation wrote:
LightningZ71 wrote:
I don't think that anyone realistically felt that the 778-F would be a near-term product with any kind of sustainable volume.

jagraham wrote:
UPS has 39 MD11s and 13 744s. FedEx has 25 MD10s and 52 MD11s. That's 129 candidates for the 77W conversion over the next decade.

Are we sure these customers will prefer conversions to new builds that come with improved engines and wings with zero time on the engines and the frames? Given the crunch that Boeing is gonna see with 779 deferrals they may be quite motivated to get 778F out the door sooner rather than later.


My pilot friend (who used to fly for UPS), when I asked why they kept flying 742s when 744s were more efficient, explained that (most) cargo planes spend most of their day sitting on the ground. Not flying 8 to 12 segments per day. So fuel efficiency is less important, and acquisition cost is more important. Except for transoceanic flights where the planes do spend most of their day in the air. Hence UPS is buying 748Fs and FedEx is buying 777Fs.

But if the cost is right, the freight airlines will bite. So we see both UPS and FedEx buying significant numbers of 767-300Fs new from Boeing. That's why I said feedstock cost is important - UPS and FedEx can keep buying 767Fs and replace what they have on more than a 1 to 1 basis if larger cargo planes are too expensive to buy.

Finally, changes in technology can dramatically change the equation. Whereas previous generation engines went to the shop every year or two, GTF and LEAP engines promise only 3 to 5 shop visits over a 25 year lifespan. If they achieve that goal, even the freight airlines have to pay attention. And they have a lot of 757s and 767s.
 
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:18 pm

Revelation wrote:
LightningZ71 wrote:
I don't think that anyone realistically felt that the 778-F would be a near-term product with any kind of sustainable volume.

jagraham wrote:
UPS has 39 MD11s and 13 744s. FedEx has 25 MD10s and 52 MD11s. That's 129 candidates for the 77W conversion over the next decade.

Are we sure these customers will prefer conversions to new builds that come with improved engines and wings with zero time on the engines and the frames? Given the crunch that Boeing is gonna see with 779 deferrals they may be quite motivated to get 778F out the door sooner rather than later.


How the conversion to new build ratio turns out will be interesting to see. Both FEDEX and UPS have turned heavily to new builds in the last few years. Will the 777 "Big Twin" change that philosophy?

To a certain extent all of the above FEDEX and UPS aircraft could be potentially replaced by 767-300F, 777F, 747-8F or a 777-8F (if offered).
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:06 pm

All the above aircraft could be replaced by 763F, 77F, and/or 748F. Most definitely. And the 778F would save big money on intercontinental flying. If it ever comes to pass. And as you noted, FedEx and UPS have invested heavily in 763F, 77F, and 748F. A 77W conversion would not save any operating cost over 748F and especially 77F. So it has to compete on purchase price. Despite being costlier to convert than the $20 million or so for the 744F conversions. But since it's likely that 77Fs and 748Fs cost more than $80 million delivered, the possibility that there is a place for a 77W conversion does exist.
 
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:43 pm

jagraham wrote:
Revelation wrote:
LightningZ71 wrote:
I don't think that anyone realistically felt that the 778-F would be a near-term product with any kind of sustainable volume.

jagraham wrote:
UPS has 39 MD11s and 13 744s. FedEx has 25 MD10s and 52 MD11s. That's 129 candidates for the 77W conversion over the next decade.

Are we sure these customers will prefer conversions to new builds that come with improved engines and wings with zero time on the engines and the frames? Given the crunch that Boeing is gonna see with 779 deferrals they may be quite motivated to get 778F out the door sooner rather than later.


My pilot friend (who used to fly for UPS), when I asked why they kept flying 742s when 744s were more efficient, explained that (most) cargo planes spend most of their day sitting on the ground. Not flying 8 to 12 segments per day. So fuel efficiency is less important, and acquisition cost is more important. Except for transoceanic flights where the planes do spend most of their day in the air. Hence UPS is buying 748Fs and FedEx is buying 777Fs.

But if the cost is right, the freight airlines will bite. So we see both UPS and FedEx buying significant numbers of 767-300Fs new from Boeing. That's why I said feedstock cost is important - UPS and FedEx can keep buying 767Fs and replace what they have on more than a 1 to 1 basis if larger cargo planes are too expensive to buy.

Finally, changes in technology can dramatically change the equation. Whereas previous generation engines went to the shop every year or two, GTF and LEAP engines promise only 3 to 5 shop visits over a 25 year lifespan. If they achieve that goal, even the freight airlines have to pay attention. And they have a lot of 757s and 767s.


I think the cargo market is changing a lot - there are airlines (including UPS and FedEx) that are flying aircraft more fully, like passenger airlines. Other airlines are sticking to the traditional model of not having high utilization.
 
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:24 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
I think the cargo market is changing a lot - there are airlines (including UPS and FedEx) that are flying aircraft more fully, like passenger airlines. Other airlines are sticking to the traditional model of not having high utilization.

I agree. It seems FX and others has been willing to buy new 772F, UPS has been willing to buy new 748F, etc. I think there is some room for new builds. Not sure if it's enough to make a 778F happen, but I'm sure someone is looking into it. I'm also sure the 773 P2F is not helping that business case close.
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:39 pm

Revelation wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
I think the cargo market is changing a lot - there are airlines (including UPS and FedEx) that are flying aircraft more fully, like passenger airlines. Other airlines are sticking to the traditional model of not having high utilization.

I agree. It seems FX and others has been willing to buy new 772F, UPS has been willing to buy new 748F, etc. I think there is some room for new builds. Not sure if it's enough to make a 778F happen, but I'm sure someone is looking into it. I'm also sure the 773 P2F is not helping that business case close.


I feel like the 778F is a when not if - but only because I suspect Boeing and its suppliers will want to reduce the number of unique parts and having the 777-200LRF base and 77X will be expensive. The 778F's price will probably be pretty steep relative to alternatives, so it will need to be the only option in the field (i.e., no 748Fs left, etc.).
 
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:42 am

Okcflyer wrote:
...
Per the above reference, conversion cost is $35MM.

If used 77W’s are going for $60MM each, that puts total at $95MM. Hopefully that includes green engines....And given these frames have lots of life left, it’s competing with new with additional volumetric capacity.

However. This beast has 15% more cargo volume then a 747F. That’s significant. And probably a big reason why Boeing wasn’t first mover as it sinks the final nails in the 748F coffin.


Please remember that GECAS has a lot of 777-300ER in their portfolio.
It is extremely important for them to keep the 777-300ER's lease rate high.

Converting some of these 777-300ER into 777-300ERSF will help keeping the GE90-115B flying and more importantly it creates a perceived scarcity of the 777-300ER and thus increasing the 777-300ER's market value.

This is a very clever move by GECAS.

As for the 747-8F, it has been mentioned since long time that the production would end in 2023 or so. There is no nail in the coffin or whatsoever. It is the end of quads in general. We know that.
 
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:51 pm

VV wrote:
Please remember that GECAS has a lot of 777-300ER in their portfolio.
It is extremely important for them to keep the 777-300ER's lease rate high.

Converting some of these 777-300ER into 777-300ERSF will help keeping the GE90-115B flying and more importantly it creates a perceived scarcity of the 777-300ER and thus increasing the 777-300ER's market value.

This is a very clever move by GECAS.

As above, they are putting $35M into each frame to be converted. Assume the original leases on the feedstock paid for the planes. viewtopic.php?t=1422705 suggests a 77F leases out at $700-1,250.000 per month. To make the math work, let's say GECAS will need to find someone to take 20 frames and pay them $1M a month and if they can they start making money in year 4 of the lease. Seems like it should be doable, but also seems there is at least some risk to be considered. I presume they must have tentative customers lined up and are confident they will close the deals and will make money.

Maybe you should update your boss's 778F article to show what a threat 773F will be?
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:14 pm

Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:
Please remember that GECAS has a lot of 777-300ER in their portfolio.
It is extremely important for them to keep the 777-300ER's lease rate high.

Converting some of these 777-300ER into 777-300ERSF will help keeping the GE90-115B flying and more importantly it creates a perceived scarcity of the 777-300ER and thus increasing the 777-300ER's market value.

This is a very clever move by GECAS.

As above, they are putting $35M into each frame to be converted. Assume the original leases on the feedstock paid for the planes. viewtopic.php?t=1422705 suggests a 77F leases out at $700-1,250.000 per month. To make the math work, let's say GECAS will need to find someone to take 20 frames and pay them $1M a month and if they can they start making money in year 4 of the lease. Seems like it should be doable, but also seems there is at least some risk to be considered. I presume they must have tentative customers lined up and are confident they will close the deals and will make money.

Maybe you should update your boss's 778F article to show what a threat 773F will be?


I think GECAS had done their homework before venturing into this conversion business.
 
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:37 pm

I'm calling BS on IAI's numbers.
They say the converted 300ER can carry exactly as much payload as the 777F (~225k lbs) and only lose 400nmi of range. The 300ER is carrying an extra 50,000 lbs of structural weight and has a max TO only 9000 lbs higher than the 777F.
If IAI's claims were true, Boeing would have made the 777F at -300 length as it has the advantage of greater volume while (supposedly) having the same payload and nearly as much range.
 
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:13 am

jbs2886 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
I think the cargo market is changing a lot - there are airlines (including UPS and FedEx) that are flying aircraft more fully, like passenger airlines. Other airlines are sticking to the traditional model of not having high utilization.

I agree. It seems FX and others has been willing to buy new 772F, UPS has been willing to buy new 748F, etc. I think there is some room for new builds. Not sure if it's enough to make a 778F happen, but I'm sure someone is looking into it. I'm also sure the 773 P2F is not helping that business case close.


I feel like the 778F is a when not if - but only because I suspect Boeing and its suppliers will want to reduce the number of unique parts and having the 777-200LRF base and 77X will be expensive. The 778F's price will probably be pretty steep relative to alternatives, so it will need to be the only option in the field (i.e., no 748Fs left, etc.).


In all, the 777-300ERSF will leverage on its enviable position as the world’s largest twin engine to displace the 747-400 freighters and possibly constitute a commercial risk for Boeing’s own 777LRF. In fact the new aircraft will offer a 21% lower fuel-burn per tonne than 747-400 series freighter while being capable of carrying nine more tonnes than the quad engined 747. Yet it achieves 18t to 20t more than a 777LRF, at a fraction of the cost as it is derived from used 15 years-plus airframe.

The above capability crushes the 747-400F/ERF.

Some double addition seems to go on though. MTOW is fixed, so adding that much payload reduces range. I do not see 4500nm feasible at full payload. More like 4100nm which actually a usable range. (BOS or JFK to LHR or AMS).

This plane is more useful as a package freighter.

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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:28 am

I just found an interesting link:

https://www.stattimes.com/news/the-maki ... cargo/amp/

It appears that the Covid-19 pandemic has advanced the programme by at least six months. The aircraft was originally scheduled to be delivered to IAI in December 2020 with certification and service entry scheduled for late 2022. Once the line is up and running, according to GECAS, conversion time will average four to five months per aircraft. As of now IAI plans to open for the GECAS work with three lines of 777 conversions. But IAI will consider opening more lines depending on market demands.

Maybe I missed the acceleration of the program.

I also missed the plan for 3 conversion lines for GE at 4 to 5 months per conversion, or 7 to 8 per year for GE plus the option for more lines for other customers.

This could see a large number converted. Combined with 231 factory freighters, that ensures opperational economies of scale for a long time.

Lemons into lemonade.

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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:05 am

lightsaber wrote:
I just found an interesting link:

https://www.stattimes.com/news/the-maki ... cargo/amp/

It appears that the Covid-19 pandemic has advanced the programme by at least six months. The aircraft was originally scheduled to be delivered to IAI in December 2020 with certification and service entry scheduled for late 2022. Once the line is up and running, according to GECAS, conversion time will average four to five months per aircraft. As of now IAI plans to open for the GECAS work with three lines of 777 conversions. But IAI will consider opening more lines depending on market demands.

Maybe I missed the acceleration of the program.

Lemons into lemonade.

Lightsaber


I asked about this 2 days ago. Thank you for the link that appears to answer this question.

MoKa777 wrote:
Based on this quote from the FG link in the OP, and the first frame having already arrived at IAI facilities, maybe we can expect the programme to progress a little faster than originally planned..?

The first aircraft will be delivered to IAI’s Tel Aviv facilities in December 2020 for conversion


This should give IAI a 6-month head start if all preparations for conversion are complete and ready to go.
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:17 pm

lightsaber wrote:

In all, the 777-300ERSF will leverage on its enviable position as the world’s largest twin engine to displace the 747-400 freighters and possibly constitute a commercial risk for Boeing’s own 777LRF. In fact the new aircraft will offer a 21% lower fuel-burn per tonne than 747-400 series freighter while being capable of carrying nine more tonnes than the quad engined 747. Yet it achieves 18t to 20t more than a 777LRF, at a fraction of the cost as it is derived from used 15 years-plus airframe.

The above capability crushes the 747-400F/ERF.

Lightsaber


Where are they getting this stuff? By IAI numbers the The 777-300ERSF carries 225k lbs. The 744F carries 250k lbs, the 748 294k lbs and the 777F 230k lbs.

They ALL beat the 300ERSF on payload.
 
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:58 pm

744SPX wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

In all, the 777-300ERSF will leverage on its enviable position as the world’s largest twin engine to displace the 747-400 freighters and possibly constitute a commercial risk for Boeing’s own 777LRF. In fact the new aircraft will offer a 21% lower fuel-burn per tonne than 747-400 series freighter while being capable of carrying nine more tonnes than the quad engined 747. Yet it achieves 18t to 20t more than a 777LRF, at a fraction of the cost as it is derived from used 15 years-plus airframe.

The above capability crushes the 747-400F/ERF.

Lightsaber


Where are they getting this stuff? By IAI numbers the The 777-300ERSF carries 225k lbs. The 744F carries 250k lbs, the 748 294k lbs and the 777F 230k lbs.

They ALL beat the 300ERSF on payload.

I posted my link. The above was a direct quote.

The lowest weight I've seen for the 777-300ERSF are the value you listed. However, since then there has been, we'll call it rumor, of a substantial increase in MZFW.

You are right in calling it out as inconsistent. However, remember how easy and light it is to strengthen the CFRP floor beams. Boeing a long time ago went with their heavy aluminum floor for the 777F and 744F.

If you go by the IAI brochure, I notice it skips over cargo weight, but has an amazing 4,650nm range (only possible with lower density cargo).

GECAS Delivers First Boeing 777-300ER Airframe To IAI For ...
https://www.aviationreportglobal.com/2020/06/09/4730

There has been six months of engineering for IAI to update the specifications.

From:
https://www.stattimes.com/news/the-maki ... cargo/amp/

"GECAS also argues that with the cargo density of around 7.5-8lb/cu ft, the B777-300ERSF can carry 20 tonnes more than a B777F, at 50 percent of the cost."

The link has 101.6 tons, which based on average volume means the typical weight is higher.

All the articles note a 21% to 22% decrease in fuel burn per ton versus the 744F. There is a reason that plane stopped selling.

IMHO, the reason Boeing didn't align with GE is their profits are from new sales and this 777-300ERSF is very competitive.

So the current 777F could carry more weight in high density, but typical density the conversion will carry more.

The 744F is a fuel and maintenance hog. The industry must be looking forward to a new conversion. If IAI hits their numbers, which seem plausible, we have another reason Boeing must bring forward the 777xF.

In the Covid19 reference thread I posted this link:

https://www.m.indiablooms.com/finance-d ... -iata.html

Cargo weight is down, but much more money being paid out due to the loss of belly freight in pax flights:

I'm excited about the 777xF. Partially as the market needs it as there is going to be far more available 777-300ER (and LR) to convert (prices already down 13% in last 3 months per flowing link) and more demand. Almost a perfect storm to force a (slow) market transition.

https://leehamnews.com/2020/06/10/hotr- ... ification/

Don't ask me why Leeham buried good data on the drop in overall passenger aircraft values at the end of a MAX article... In particular as so much data was other aircraft sizes. But the trend is clear, older aircraft technology, duch as the 77W, is falling quickly in value (unless near scrap value, then the value drop, such as the 767-300ER, just tells us how much scrap values are falling).

The short term lease rates tell us A330s are not being placed at new airlines, so IAI had better consider that market too.

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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:59 pm

VV wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Maybe you should update your boss's 778F article to show what a threat 773F will be?

I think GECAS had done their homework before venturing into this conversion business.

Has Boeing?

Will GECAS share their work?

Who are likely to take the first 20?
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:13 pm

GECAS is arguing that at fairly low densities a 77F is maxed out on volume.
"GECAS also argues that with the cargo density of around 7.5-8lb/cu ft, the B777-300ERSF can carry 20 tonnes more than a B777F, at 50 percent of the cost."
At that 7.5 to 8 lb/ft^3, and 101.6 tons, that's just over 26220 ft^3.
Maybe UPS or FedEx would bite on that, but it's still an expensive proposition.
The weights also do seem to suggest carbon fiber floor beams, either reinforced or new. That detail would be interesting to know more about.
 
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:35 pm

ATSG could have some possible interest....if the price is right.
 
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:46 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
jagraham wrote:
Revelation wrote:

Are we sure these customers will prefer conversions to new builds that come with improved engines and wings with zero time on the engines and the frames? Given the crunch that Boeing is gonna see with 779 deferrals they may be quite motivated to get 778F out the door sooner rather than later.


My pilot friend (who used to fly for UPS), when I asked why they kept flying 742s when 744s were more efficient, explained that (most) cargo planes spend most of their day sitting on the ground. Not flying 8 to 12 segments per day. So fuel efficiency is less important, and acquisition cost is more important. Except for transoceanic flights where the planes do spend most of their day in the air. Hence UPS is buying 748Fs and FedEx is buying 777Fs.

But if the cost is right, the freight airlines will bite. So we see both UPS and FedEx buying significant numbers of 767-300Fs new from Boeing. That's why I said feedstock cost is important - UPS and FedEx can keep buying 767Fs and replace what they have on more than a 1 to 1 basis if larger cargo planes are too expensive to buy.

Finally, changes in technology can dramatically change the equation. Whereas previous generation engines went to the shop every year or two, GTF and LEAP engines promise only 3 to 5 shop visits over a 25 year lifespan. If they achieve that goal, even the freight airlines have to pay attention. And they have a lot of 757s and 767s.


I think the cargo market is changing a lot - there are airlines (including UPS and FedEx) that are flying aircraft more fully, like passenger airlines. Other airlines are sticking to the traditional model of not having high utilization.


The integrators (FedEx, UPS, DHL) don't get full utilization on their regional aircraft because they operate regional hub and spoke networks with flight timings based around the night sorts at their regional hubs - i.e. flights into the hubs during the evening, flights out of the hubs during the early hours of the morning - then during the day the aircraft are idle on the ground. So much time on the ground that numbers make it difficult to justify new builds.

For the intercontinental connectivity between regional hubs it's a different story, as due to timezones etc, the aircraft have a much higher utilization. Therefore the business case for new builds is easier to make.
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:56 pm

Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Maybe you should update your boss's 778F article to show what a threat 773F will be?

I think GECAS had done their homework before venturing into this conversion business.

Has Boeing?
...


That program is launched by GECAS and IAI. Do you know exactly what Boeing's involvement here?

Is that a kind of STC?
 
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:19 pm

VV wrote:
That program is launched by GECAS and IAI. Do you know exactly what Boeing's involvement here? Is that a kind of STC?


IAI Ltd. has plenty of experience doing passenger-to-freighter STCs for other Boeing frames (737, 747, 767) and I imagine they had little to no support from Boeing since they competed directly with Boeing on both a new build and conversions (Boeing Converted Freighters) so I expect they should be able to do a 777-300 P2F conversion without any support from "the mothership".
 
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:35 pm

VV wrote:
Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:
I think GECAS had done their homework before venturing into this conversion business.

Has Boeing?
...


That program is launched by GECAS and IAI. Do you know exactly what Boeing's involvement here?

Is that a kind of STC?

GE and IAI are financing, jointly, the STC:

https://www.iai.co.il/cargo-conversion- ... with-gecas

Richard Greener, SVP and Manager of GECAS Cargo said, "We are excited to collaborate with IAI on this program. Their proven experience, knowledge, and unique engineering skill and resources in passenger to freighter conversion — combined with our working relationship with IAI stretching back into the 1990’s —gives us the confidence to co-fund the STC Development and committing to the Program as a Launch Customer of the B777-300ERSF.

Boeing is not involved (I believe as this hurts Boeing's business interest). As there are 767 and 757 freighter conversions where Boeing was not involved in the STC, I ask what is different now? Through the certification paperwork, Boeing must give out enough information on their assumptions, IAI is more than competent to increase MZFW.

I don't have links, but I did have friends I hired from 767 and 757 Engineering shops who did STCs on competing freighter conversions. It used to be Boeing was happy to make a profit selling engineering consulting services to freight conversions. Then Boeing decided to do their own conversions in competition with the other converters. I speculate that Boeing thought they could squeeze them into being just contractors for BCFs. In the case of IAI, they thrived.

Major current conversion houses:

https://cargofacts.com/allposts/equipme ... on-houses/

Aeronautical Engineering, only dies 737-800 (no Boeing help)

Bedek (IAI): 737 (many varieties,), 767-300ER, and now 777. Became big off 767-200 conversions (no longer performing 762 conversions).

Boeing: 737-800 and 767-300ER

PEMCO: 737-700 (used to specialize in 737-300 conversions).

Precision Aircraft solutions: 757-200 and A321

Singapore Technologies: 757-200
--- Performs work on Boeing 767-300ER conversions
--- Owns EFW: A330-200/300, A320, A321 (great relationship with Airbus).

So there is a huge competitive market. There are other 752 and 767-300ER converters, but only the above fo volume.

The majority of pax to freight conversions of Boeings seem to be done without Boeing's assistance. The Boeing conversions are bid out to multiple shops. ST just efficient on the 767-300ERBCF wirk, but not the exclusive winner of bids for the work.

GECAS will remarket 15+ of these 777-300ERSF.
IAI Bedek will market the conversion to interested opperators too.

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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:41 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Cargo weight is down, but much more money being paid out due to the loss of belly freight in pax flights:

I'm excited about the 777xF. Partially as the market needs it as there is going to be far more available 777-300ER (and LR) to convert (prices already down 13% in last 3 months per flowing link) and more demand. Almost a perfect storm to force a (slow) market transition.

Freight demand and rates are being skewed by Government intervention, contracting PPE and other essentials at virtually any cost, and in some cases partly / fully underwriting capacity for exporters. Plus airlines with long-term marginal cost belly freight contracts are having to spot contracts at high rates, or operate passenger aircraft in freight only mode at a notional profit.

Is it sustainable?
 
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:23 pm

smartplane wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Cargo weight is down, but much more money being paid out due to the loss of belly freight in pax flights:

I'm excited about the 777xF. Partially as the market needs it as there is going to be far more available 777-300ER (and LR) to convert (prices already down 13% in last 3 months per flowing link) and more demand. Almost a perfect storm to force a (slow) market transition.

Freight demand and rates are being skewed by Government intervention, contracting PPE and other essentials at virtually any cost, and in some cases partly / fully underwriting capacity for exporters. Plus airlines with long-term marginal cost belly freight contracts are having to spot contracts at high rates, or operate passenger aircraft in freight only mode at a notional profit.

Is it sustainable?

Revenue is expected to be elevated for a while.

As this 777-300ERSF won't be delivered before 4Q2021 or in 2022 and the 777xF won't be for years, we're talking 744F replacement at much low fuel burn and maintenance costs.

There is demand for a far more efficient freighter in the 777xF.

The 777-300ERSF is for package freighters at range or lower utilization, but still > 2,000/hours per year freight. It could be very high utilization for the express companies or Amazon.

The 777xF is for trunk line freight routes that fly over 3,000 hours per year. Amazon or express could use this, but they'll want only a fraction of the fleet due to seasonality in the cargo market. It steps down variable costs enough to disrupt the market.

I discuss both as they change the market. Unfortunately for Boeing, the 777-300ERSF can do ,70% or so (my best guess) of the 777x market. So hence why Boeing needs a new update.

With cost improvements, this creates a trickle down impact for the whole market. The first will enter the market for capacity. Then because of efficiency.

I don't know anyone who predicted the current size of the 767-300F, and 747-800 conversion market we have today. I see a large forward freight market. I do not see the passenger market recovering within 3 years. I see long term elevated freight rates. Not as elevated as today, but not as bad as pre-Covid19.

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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:13 pm

lightsaber wrote:

Major current conversion houses:

https://cargofacts.com/allposts/equipme ... on-houses/

Aeronautical Engineering, only dies 737-800 (no Boeing help)

Bedek (IAI): 737 (many varieties,), 767-300ER, and now 777. Became big off 767-200 conversions (no longer performing 762 conversions).

Boeing: 737-800 and 767-300ER

PEMCO: 737-700 (used to specialize in 737-300 conversions).

Precision Aircraft solutions: 757-200 and A321

Singapore Technologies: 757-200
--- Performs work on Boeing 767-300ER conversions
--- Owns EFW: A330-200/300, A320, A321 (great relationship with Airbus).



Lightsaber


A few corrections: AEI is still doing 734, CR2 an MD80 conversions. Looks like they have orders for 1 733F, 13 734F and 2 MD80F conversions since jan 1

BEDEK has just completed on 762 conversion for Cargojet and is working on a second. 762 conversions can still be done when required.
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:04 pm

Spacepope wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

Major current conversion houses:

https://cargofacts.com/allposts/equipme ... on-houses/

Aeronautical Engineering, only dies 737-800 (no Boeing help)

Bedek (IAI): 737 (many varieties,), 767-300ER, and now 777. Became big off 767-200 conversions (no longer performing 762 conversions).

Boeing: 737-800 and 767-300ER

PEMCO: 737-700 (used to specialize in 737-300 conversions).

Precision Aircraft solutions: 757-200 and A321

Singapore Technologies: 757-200
--- Performs work on Boeing 767-300ER conversions
--- Owns EFW: A330-200/300, A320, A321 (great relationship with Airbus).



Lightsaber


A few corrections: AEI is still doing 734, CR2 an MD80 conversions. Looks like they have orders for 1 733F, 13 734F and 2 MD80F conversions since jan 1

BEDEK has just completed on 762 conversion for Cargojet and is working on a second. 762 conversions can still be done when required.

Facinating, it just goes to show how long these conversion programs can go on for.

I'm pleasantly surprised to see an MD80 conversion. That implies the 777-300ERSF conversion has a long life.

I'll admit my bias, I didn't think the conversion cost for two generation ago circa 2000 or earlier aircraft would be converted.

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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:06 pm

lightsaber wrote:
smartplane wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Cargo weight is down, but much more money being paid out due to the loss of belly freight in pax flights:

I'm excited about the 777xF. Partially as the market needs it as there is going to be far more available 777-300ER (and LR) to convert (prices already down 13% in last 3 months per flowing link) and more demand. Almost a perfect storm to force a (slow) market transition.

Freight demand and rates are being skewed by Government intervention, contracting PPE and other essentials at virtually any cost, and in some cases partly / fully underwriting capacity for exporters. Plus airlines with long-term marginal cost belly freight contracts are having to spot contracts at high rates, or operate passenger aircraft in freight only mode at a notional profit.

Is it sustainable?

Revenue is expected to be elevated for a while.

As this 777-300ERSF won't be delivered before 4Q2021 or in 2022 and the 777xF won't be for years, we're talking 744F replacement at much low fuel burn and maintenance costs.

There is demand for a far more efficient freighter in the 777xF.

The 777-300ERSF is for package freighters at range or lower utilization, but still > 2,000/hours per year freight. It could be very high utilization for the express companies or Amazon.

The 777xF is for trunk line freight routes that fly over 3,000 hours per year. Amazon or express could use this, but they'll want only a fraction of the fleet due to seasonality in the cargo market. It steps down variable costs enough to disrupt the market.

I discuss both as they change the market. Unfortunately for Boeing, the 777-300ERSF can do ,70% or so (my best guess) of the 777x market. So hence why Boeing needs a new update.

With cost improvements, this creates a trickle down impact for the whole market. The first will enter the market for capacity. Then because of efficiency.

I don't know anyone who predicted the current size of the 767-300F, and 747-800 conversion market we have today. I see a large forward freight market. I do not see the passenger market recovering within 3 years. I see long term elevated freight rates. Not as elevated as today, but not as bad as pre-Covid19.

Lightsaber


Very well written Sir!

Do you happen to know the cost difference between acquiring a used 747-400 and 777-300ER? I understand the efficiency increase one gets with the 77W but I'd like to see the "out the door" cost difference between purchasing and converting say a 2001 build 747-400 vs the GECAS 77W offering.

I'm looking to get a real apple to apples comparison.

Something along the lines of it costs $10 million to buy a 2001 747-400 and $30 million to convert, for a total cost of $40 million vs it costs $50 million to buy a 77W and $30 million to convert, for a total cost of $80 million. Then I'd like to see the operating costs for a year on the 747 vs 777. That way one can see how many years out the advantage of spending twice the amount of capital on your asset pays off.
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:49 pm

VV wrote:
Revelation wrote:
VV wrote:
I think GECAS had done their homework before venturing into this conversion business.

Has Boeing?
...


That program is launched by GECAS and IAI. Do you know exactly what Boeing's involvement here?

Is that a kind of STC?

I agree with the consensus that Boeing's involvement in 773F is nil.

My question was along the lines of has Boeing done their homework on how the 773F impacts the current 772F and future/potential 778F.

It seems appropriate to ask since we read in an august online publication that you are familiar with that Boeing is considering advancing the introduction of a potential 778F, yet seems to be an organization that has been falling short of the mark in recent times.
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:56 pm

respectful observations on Boeing’s worries:
The biggest current competitor for the 777X program are the operating fleet of 77W.
Yes, AB’s public announcement of a paper A350F requires a Boeing 777XF response.
Demand is ingesting the B773ERSF, B764GENX and A333P2F projects... and which engine supplier is participating in solutions.
The B773ERSF adds a dynamic to the landscape, but which airframer problem would you prefer?

How is reliability a factor for freight in a hub and spoke system? How are maintenance issues and redirected time constrained service handled on the “spokes”? The answers/opinions to new build v. conversion freighters should be determined/discussed once the group has a comfortable handle on these two determining questions.

Where is the industry on utility ‘changing’? AirTanker leases A332MRTTs between the RAF and the public sector(passenger use). The “utility” of the aircraft changes via a remodel. Further, 5X was involved in a study on “quick change” for its freighters ~20 years ago. The aspiration was for freight duty on the weekdays and passenger leasing on the weekends.
When taken in context with utility ‘surges’, peak season needs for package freight companies, Haji flights… the issue may be ripe for the AE’s and armchair C-suiters to revisit. Within the context of the current thread theme B773ERSF (and A333P2F); is this a germane AE puzzle?
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:54 am

martlet76 wrote:
It is interesting to see the cargo door placed aft of the wing


The 747 'Combi' has a similar cargo door configuration. So for ramp space and logistics it seems to work.
 
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:58 am

IMHO the 777-300ERSF P-F conversion by IAI will be very complicated without any help from Boeing, because of the increase of the MZFW and MLW above the max operating weights of the B777F to obtain the same payload capability as the B777F.

On top of that the B777F has a special designed advanced maneuver load alleviation system that redistributes the aero­dynamic load on the wing during non-normal flight conditions, reducing the load on its outboard portion . This allows the 777F to operate in a wide variety of flight environments without compromising payload capability.
Despite this, with the highest optional weight; loading restrictions apply at the B777F above 750,000-lb (340,190-kg) maximum takeoff weight

A new " Advanced maneuver load allevation system " has also to be developed (without Boeing aid and IAI is not allowed to copy the 777F load allevation system + software.) and certified for the 777-300ERSF.

See : https://www.boeing.com/commercial/aerom ... .html#fig2
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:10 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

Major current conversion houses:

https://cargofacts.com/allposts/equipme ... on-houses/

Aeronautical Engineering, only dies 737-800 (no Boeing help)

Bedek (IAI): 737 (many varieties,), 767-300ER, and now 777. Became big off 767-200 conversions (no longer performing 762 conversions).

Boeing: 737-800 and 767-300ER

PEMCO: 737-700 (used to specialize in 737-300 conversions).

Precision Aircraft solutions: 757-200 and A321

Singapore Technologies: 757-200
--- Performs work on Boeing 767-300ER conversions
--- Owns EFW: A330-200/300, A320, A321 (great relationship with Airbus).



Lightsaber


A few corrections: AEI is still doing 734, CR2 an MD80 conversions. Looks like they have orders for 1 733F, 13 734F and 2 MD80F conversions since jan 1

BEDEK has just completed on 762 conversion for Cargojet and is working on a second. 762 conversions can still be done when required.

Facinating, it just goes to show how long these conversion programs can go on for.

I'm pleasantly surprised to see an MD80 conversion. That implies the 777-300ERSF conversion has a long life.

I'll admit my bias, I didn't think the conversion cost for two generation ago circa 2000 or earlier aircraft would be converted.

Lightsaber

With the painful drag of time it is taking to get A32x series into cargo duty, you see a lot of interesting choices when it comes to conversion. Some operators absolutely love the old Douglas metal, like Aeronaves TSM which just this week took and old C-30.

IAI has already done a lot of their experimentation with the 772 guinea pig frame. The fact that they claimed to have figured out how to work a conversion and then scrapped their dissection practice indicates they had to get really hands on. A very smart move to get the leasing arm of the exclusive engine manufacturer to share risk now.

Those of us watching the insanity of what 767 frames are getting converted, some with over 110,000 hours in pax service already, look at the potential 77W feedstock and think it’s all super youthful.
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:18 pm

Spacepope wrote:
Those of us watching the insanity of what 767 frames are getting converted, some with over 110,000 hours in pax service already, look at the potential 77W feedstock and think it’s all super youthful.

That alone explains why IAI Bedek looked at new markets.

I've heard conversions will not happen with less than 30,000 FH and 20,000 FC left on validity (I put below for other users). I didn't expect that to be pushed as much as you identified.

The few 738s I followed being converted were pretty young.

Even with the high 767 level of Validity, I had no trouble finding pax examples with over 130,000 FH (interesting, I didn't find any with over 20,000 FC).

To other posters:
For those who don't know, you can look up N registered aircraft maintenance information, which includes hours and cycles on when an issue is found:

https://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/Query.aspx

Looking Up Delta's oldest N171DN, put in the registration 171DN (no "N") and dates. These are used extensively, so at most last six months. Open a record and I saw 135,296 flight hours (FH) but only 19,284 Flight cycles (FC).

Looking at the limit of Validity, one sees a 767F is good for 150,000 FH and 60,000 FC, while pax is good for 75,000 FC. Due to low cycles, I do not think cycles matter as so few vs. allowed validity as 40k+ cycles is more than enough for a freighter and some.

As for the competition, the A330 is good for 180,000 FH, 60,000 FC. 787 200,000 FH, 66,000 FC. Note, Mea Culpa, I previously posted out of date numbers on the A330. Airbus extended the Limit of Validity for the A320 and A330; one benefit of economy of scale, you can sell the maintenance "upgrade" for older aircraft and use it to help sell new.

The 777 is good for 160,000 FH and "only" 37,500 FC in freight duty (60,000 FC in pax duty, part of the cost of the higher MZFW/MLW). Boeing used the high limit of validity for years to sell (back when the A330s 100k FH and 33k implied no resale to the freight conversion market). Then they didn't ("Too expensive to convert 777, that is why no conversion is offered.") My opinion is the 777 retained too much value as a pax plane. GECAS knows historical value patterns and would have known the A35K and 779 would drive down 777-300ER resale values, to the point GE should have been concerned examples would be scrapped.

Does anyone have a method to look up cycles and hours on aircraft other than N registered? I would like to know the fleet leading hours and cycles on the 777-300ERs currently to understand the suitability of the conversion stock. The US examples are too young to be representative of the initial conversion stock.

I consider anything below 20k cycles and 80k hours prime candidates that before Covid19 were too valuable in pax duty to be considered. I consider anything below 100k flight hours a candidate at the right price. But as Spacepope illustrated, I was too conservative in my suitability of conversion stock assumptions. However, until IAI has time to cut costs on the 777-300ERSF conversion, it will he a pricey conversion. But by 2025, they'll have the costs under control.

Just as with initial production, there is a learning curve. I see hundreds of converted 777-300ERSFs. Combined with 231 777F, this keeps the MRO capacity on the GE90 powered 777s efficient for decades. I expect in 12 years to be discussing 779 conversions in a similar thread.

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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:07 pm

lightsaber wrote:

Looking at the limit of Validity, one sees a 767F is good for 150,000 FH and 60,000 FC, while pax is good for 75,000 FC. Due to low cycles, I do not think cycles matter as so few vs. allowed validity as 40k+ cycles is more than enough for a freighter and some.


Does anyone have a method to look up cycles and hours on aircraft other than N registered? I would like to know the fleet leading hours and cycles on the 777-300ERs currently to understand the suitability of the conversion stock. The US examples are too young to be representative of the initial conversion stock.


The only other country that displays hours (not cycles) is the UK with their G-INFO system that I am aware of, but I would love to know if there were more.

Id the 60,000 cycle LoV true on the 767? ATSG runs theirs right up to 50,000 and then scraps. Wondering if they are using a reduced LoV for freighter conversions or if it's just an increasing cost thing.
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:51 pm

It's kind of interesting to me that the ST article on the VDA situation:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... er-market/

sends out the message that Boeing has no worries in the freighter market, and doesn't even mention this IAI/GECAS project as a concern.
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:17 pm

Revelation wrote:
It's kind of interesting to me that the ST article on the VDA situation:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... er-market/

sends out the message that Boeing has no worries in the freighter market, and doesn't even mention this IAI/GECAS project as a concern.


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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:53 pm

Spacepope wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

Looking at the limit of Validity, one sees a 767F is good for 150,000 FH and 60,000 FC, while pax is good for 75,000 FC. Due to low cycles, I do not think cycles matter as so few vs. allowed validity as 40k+ cycles is more than enough for a freighter and some.


Does anyone have a method to look up cycles and hours on aircraft other than N registered? I would like to know the fleet leading hours and cycles on the 777-300ERs currently to understand the suitability of the conversion stock. The US examples are too young to be representative of the initial conversion stock.


The only other country that displays hours (not cycles) is the UK with their G-INFO system that I am aware of, but I would love to know if there were more.

Id the 60,000 cycle LoV true on the 767? ATSG runs theirs right up to 50,000 and then scraps. Wondering if they are using a reduced LoV for freighter conversions or if it's just an increasing cost thing.

Doesn't the 767 have an expensive AD to replace the aft pressure bulkhead about 50,000 cycles?

Older planes have more expensive maintenance as the age. This is why I believe young 777-300ERs will be attractive to convert. What will matter is the cost of hulls in about two years. I'm afraid the oldest 77Ws are going to plummet in value. With the first batch taken care of by GECAS, that allows the program to launch until sellers realize how many aircraft are for sale.

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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:40 pm

Test flight in TLV today for what'll become the first 777-300ERSF, new registration N557CC. www.facebook.com/AeronewsGlobal/posts/3159320140810731
 
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:36 pm

upintheair2019 wrote:
Test flight in TLV today for what'll become the first 777-300ERSF, new registration N557CC. http://www.facebook.com/AeronewsGlobal/ ... 0140810731


Why was there a test flight before the conversion?
 
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:59 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
lightsaber wrote:

Looking at the limit of Validity, one sees a 767F is good for 150,000 FH and 60,000 FC, while pax is good for 75,000 FC. Due to low cycles, I do not think cycles matter as so few vs. allowed validity as 40k+ cycles is more than enough for a freighter and some.


Does anyone have a method to look up cycles and hours on aircraft other than N registered? I would like to know the fleet leading hours and cycles on the 777-300ERs currently to understand the suitability of the conversion stock. The US examples are too young to be representative of the initial conversion stock.


The only other country that displays hours (not cycles) is the UK with their G-INFO system that I am aware of, but I would love to know if there were more.

Id the 60,000 cycle LoV true on the 767? ATSG runs theirs right up to 50,000 and then scraps. Wondering if they are using a reduced LoV for freighter conversions or if it's just an increasing cost thing.

Doesn't the 767 have an expensive AD to replace the aft pressure bulkhead about 50,000 cycles?

Older planes have more expensive maintenance as the age. This is why I believe young 777-300ERs will be attractive to convert. What will matter is the cost of hulls in about two years. I'm afraid the oldest 77Ws are going to plummet in value. With the first batch taken care of by GECAS, that allows the program to launch until sellers realize how many aircraft are for sale.

Lightsaber


ATSG is one of the few places that does the pressure bulkhead swap, and they've done some on their 762Fs already well before the AD.

I think these LOV's are nice looking on paper, but usually these aircraft get too expensive to fix and fly well before either the hour or cycle counts get pegged. Heck, only a few 777s have hit the 100,000 hour mark so far.
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Stitch
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:12 pm

IWMBH wrote:
Why was there a test flight before the conversion?


Maybe they added some sensors to take readings for areas that will be modified during the conversion for a baseline?
 
Ronaldo747
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:54 pm

N557CC on a flight to SBD, just at FL280 all the way, what is going on? Conversation postponed?

https://www.flightradar24.com/N557CC/2522e3d8

EDIT: will not rule out this might be a FR24 glitch, because this is weird.
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:05 pm

Ronaldo747 wrote:
N557CC on a flight to SBD, just at FL280 all the way, what is going on? Conversation postponed?

https://www.flightradar24.com/N557CC/2522e3d8

EDIT: will not rule out this might be a FR24 glitch, because this is weird.


This says conversion is finished. Wth???!!

https://twitter.com/AirportWebcams/stat ... 9609296898
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

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lightsaber
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:09 pm

VCVSpotter wrote:
Ronaldo747 wrote:
N557CC on a flight to SBD, just at FL280 all the way, what is going on? Conversation postponed?

https://www.flightradar24.com/N557CC/2522e3d8

EDIT: will not rule out this might be a FR24 glitch, because this is weird.


This says conversion is finished. Wth???!!

https://twitter.com/AirportWebcams/stat ... 9609296898

Not plausible. It is a 4 month conversion process (when mature) plus flight testing.

I have no idea why that reported flight.

Lightsaber

Late edit: I'm sure later conversions will go faster. I have trouble believing a mere 3 month conversion for the first 77W.
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VSMUT
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:20 pm

Stitch wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
Why was there a test flight before the conversion?


Maybe they added some sensors to take readings for areas that will be modified during the conversion for a baseline?


It's common to do a testflight to see if everything is as it should and if anything needs to be fixed while it is in the shop. It would be a bit stupid if they do the entire conversion, only to find an old issue from prior to the conversion. Normally it is done after return to the leasing company (which this could well be), but who knows what the exact details in contract between GECAS and Emirates were.
 
justplanesmart
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:58 am

Ronaldo747 wrote:
N557CC on a flight to SBD, just at FL280 all the way, what is going on? Conversation postponed?

https://www.flightradar24.com/N557CC/2522e3d8

EDIT: will not rule out this might be a FR24 glitch, because this is weird.


Same flight shows up on flightaware:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N557CC
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