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744SPX
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:04 am

amdiesen wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
As the 300ER SF (or hypothetical BCF) has more volume and payload than 747F, its uncomfortably close to 748F.


Ok that's it. Does this make any sense to the AEs?

B748F -- 139T?
B744F -- 124T?
B772F -- 103T?

Where is the B773ERSF on max payload, max volume, MZFW, MLW? Is there anyway we can develop and post a semi-factual table as a consensus and basis for rational discussion?

The frame weight difference of the 777 derivatives (B773ER/B772F) is ~23,400kg before the conversion and the conversion will add additional OEW.
The engines, wingspan, wing area, fuel capacity are the same and MTOW(351.5 v 348) is similar; therefore the B773ERSF will have ~24T+ OEW w/~same structural physics and power plant as the B772F.
Yes/agreed... 25% more volume is appealing. Using the longer fuselage to more efficiently transport a more common density is something that we all agree upon.

How can the B773ERSF carry more mass/payload than the B772F? B744F?.... sigh

I'd like to respectfully call B/S.


I agree completely. There is no way of getting around these numbers. Advertising BS on the part of IAI.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:33 am

If the business case is so good, why would Boeing not jump on the bandwagon now and develop their own version? They have a head start over GECAS in regard to the software modification.
 
VSMUT
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:50 am

Antaras wrote:
So...77W will have no chance of being scrapped after retirement (except when they have serious damage beyond repair?)
And would IAI/GECAS try to acquire all of the retired 77W (in the future)?


There are over 800 77Ws in existance. Personally I estimate a market for probably no more than 200 freighters, another poster said 150+. Conversion rates are low. IMO, we will still see most 77Ws scrapped after their lives as passenger planes is over, but somewhat less than if the cargo conversion did not exist. It will also contribute to keeping the value of spare parts from scrapped frames high.

The conversion rate will be another issue. If they convert, say, 6 per year, and GECAS gets 100 frames back, they would need to store some of those 100 for 16 years before they get converted. Add in the factor that they will have to spend several years just converting the first frames. After some years in storage, any aircraft will be as good as trash and worthless for conversion.
 
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Stitch
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:13 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
If the business case is so good, why would Boeing not jump on the bandwagon now and develop their own version? They have a head start over GECAS in regard to the software modification.


I imagine Boeing wanted to protect the 747-8F and 777F and keep a market open for a possible 777XF.
 
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Revelation
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:46 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
If the business case is so good, why would Boeing not jump on the bandwagon now and develop their own version? They have a head start over GECAS in regard to the software modification.

GECAS already owns the 77Ws so its business case involves getting more use out of assets they already own, as opposed to seeing them go to scrap and driving down the value of the rest of the 77W used market.

The assets Boeing already own are the ones to make new 77Fs.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:18 pm

Revelation wrote:
JerseyFlyer wrote:
If the business case is so good, why would Boeing not jump on the bandwagon now and develop their own version? They have a head start over GECAS in regard to the software modification.

GECAS already owns the 77Ws so its business case involves getting more use out of assets they already own, as opposed to seeing them go to scrap and driving down the value of the rest of the 77W used market.

The assets Boeing already own are the ones to make new 77Fs.


What are the fleet leaders like on the 77W? I can;'t imagine these conversions will have more than 40,000 hours and 6-8000 cycles on most of them given typical utilization and age of the type.
 
2175301
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:40 pm

hz747300 wrote:
Maybe Boeing can sell the license to the 748F to Antonov so they can keep a nose loading freighter flying around. It seems there would be a need for a nose loader. Maybe those clever cats at Antonov can build in a kneeling capability for their licensed 748F too.


The 748F cannot be produced beyond the 2028 emission standards date as it does not meet the required emission standards. So, its dead. It does appear that it will be buried several years prior to that.

To the best of my knowledge Boeing has available parts to make another 3 B748F that they do not have customers for (UPS recently turned down buying those). If there was that much demand for it then those 3 aircraft would already have been sold.

Have a great day,
 
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747classic
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:49 pm

I searched for some official max structural operating weights of the 777-200LR, 777-200LRF, 777-300ER and the future 777-300ERSF
All weights are in lbs.

MTOW-----766.000 - 766.800 - 775.000 - 775.000
MLW--------492.000 - 575.000 - 554.000 - 583.000
MZFW------461.000 - 547.000 - 524.000 - 558.000
OEW -------320.000 - 318.300 - 370.000 - 336.000
MSP--------141.000 - 228.700 - 154.000 - 222.000

MTOW = max T/O weight
MLW = max landing weight
MZFW = max zero fuel weight
OEW = operational empty weight.
MSP = max structural payload

What strikes me is de following :

The OEW of a factory built 777-200LRF is almost the same as the OEW of the 777-200LR
However IAI seems to be able to decrease the OEW of the 777-300ER from 370.000 lbs to 336.000 lbs in the 777-300ERSF.
Note : Calculation of the 777-300ERSF OEW = MZFW - MSP = 558.000 - 222.000 = 336.000


Boeing Source, see page 2-2 : https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeing ... 2lr3er.pdf
IAI source : https://www.iai.co.il/drupal/sites/defa ... ochure.pdf
 
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lightsaber
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:08 pm

747classic wrote:
I searched for some official max structural operating weights of the 777-200LR, 777-200LRF, 777-300ER and the future 777-300ERSF
All weights are in lbs.

MTOW-----766.000 - 766.800 - 775.000 - 775.000
MLW--------492.000 - 575.000 - 554.000 - 583.000
MZFW------461.000 - 547.000 - 524.000 - 558.000
OEW -------320.000 - 318.300 - 370.000 - 336.000
MSP--------141.000 - 228.700 - 154.000 - 222.000

MTOW = max T/O weight
MLW = max landing weight
MZFW = max zero fuel weight
OEW + operational empty weight.
MSP = max structural payload

What strikes me is de following :

The OEW of a factory built 777-200LRF is almost the same as the OEW of the 777-200LR
However IAI seems to be able to decrease the OEW of the 777-300ER from 370.000 lbs to 336.000 lbs in the 777-300ERSF.
Note : Calculation of the 777-300ERSF OEW = MZFW - MSP = 558.000 - 222.000 = 336.000


Boeing Source, see page 2-2 : https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeing ... 2lr3er.pdf
IAI source : https://www.iai.co.il/drupal/sites/defa ... ochure.pdf

The 777F has aluminum floor beams. That adds tremendous weight.

CFRP design has come a long way in the last 20 years. I would speculate CFRP beams with metal wear surfaces. There are tons of weight to be removed from the 777F.

Lightsaber
 
hz747300
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:14 am

2175301 wrote:
hz747300 wrote:
Maybe Boeing can sell the license to the 748F to Antonov so they can keep a nose loading freighter flying around. It seems there would be a need for a nose loader. Maybe those clever cats at Antonov can build in a kneeling capability for their licensed 748F too.


The 748F cannot be produced beyond the 2028 emission standards date as it does not meet the required emission standards. So, its dead. It does appear that it will be buried several years prior to that.

To the best of my knowledge Boeing has available parts to make another 3 B748F that they do not have customers for (UPS recently turned down buying those). If there was that much demand for it then those 3 aircraft would already have been sold.

Have a great day,


How am I supposed to have a great day after that post? Or, was it rhetorical?
 
744SPX
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:19 am

2175301 wrote:
hz747300 wrote:
Maybe Boeing can sell the license to the 748F to Antonov so they can keep a nose loading freighter flying around. It seems there would be a need for a nose loader. Maybe those clever cats at Antonov can build in a kneeling capability for their licensed 748F too.


The 748F cannot be produced beyond the 2028 emission standards date as it does not meet the required emission standards. So, its dead. It does appear that it will be buried several years prior to that.

To the best of my knowledge Boeing has available parts to make another 3 B748F that they do not have customers for (UPS recently turned down buying those). If there was that much demand for it then those 3 aircraft would already have been sold.

Have a great day,



How does the GEnx not meet the 2028 emission standards? If the 748 does not meet the 2028 emissions standards then neither do the hundreds of GE powered 787's
 
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747classic
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:48 am

lightsaber wrote:
The 777F has aluminum floor beams. That adds tremendous weight.

CFRP design has come a long way in the last 20 years. I would speculate CFRP beams with metal wear surfaces. There are tons of weight to be removed from the 777F.

Lightsaber


CFRP will have less weight, but that amount of weight saving seems unbelieveble.
If true, why wouldn't the OEM replace the 777F alu beams with CFRP, via a Product Improvement Program (PIP)
Note, the first 777F was delivered only 11 years ago .
 
amdiesen
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:00 am

747classic wrote:
I searched for some official max structural operating weights of the 777-200LR, 777-200LRF, 777-300ER and the future 777-300ERSF
All weights are in lbs.

MTOW-----766.000 - 766.800 - 775.000 - 775.000
MLW--------492.000 - 575.000 - 554.000 - 583.000
MZFW------461.000 - 547.000 - 524.000 - 558.000
OEW -------320.000 - 318.300 - 370.000 - 336.000
MSP--------141.000 - 228.700 - 154.000 - 222.000

Boeing Source, see page 2-2 : https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeing ... 2lr3er.pdf
IAI source : https://www.iai.co.il/drupal/sites/defa ... ochure.pdf

sincere thanks 747Classic


This is a link to a working spreadsheet that attempts to create a table of global wide-body freighters and their operators.
Carrier, WB freighter fleets, table: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WthVAC ... sp=sharing
B744CF and MD11Fs frames are the most vulnerable for replacement, thus an anticipated (logical near-term) "UpgradePath" column is included. This is subject, of course, to ANets welcome constructive criticism/input. Limitations have excluded de minimis carriers/fleets and the B767Fs.
~Ranked using https://www.cargonewswire.com/top-25-ai ... -rankings/ plus manually added carriers.



for reference here are relevant used prices for this topic courtesy of LAXintl
LAXintl wrote:
Pax
A330-200 – $12.7 - 70.0M, $125-600,000
A330-300 - $8.5 - 85.5M, $100-660,000
B777-300ER – $42.0 – 149.0M, $300-1,250,000

Freighter
A330F – $49.0 - 77.0M, $350-640,000
B744F – $12.0 - 30.0M, $180-400,000
B748F – $92.0 - 173.0M, $750-1,400,000
B763F – $18.0 - 74.0M, $230-550,000
B777F – $82.5 - 152.0M, $700-1,150,000

The information is derived from actual transactions along with market valuations and is current as of May 2020
Sources: IBA/ISTAT
 
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Momo1435
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:48 am

744SPX wrote:
2175301 wrote:
hz747300 wrote:
Maybe Boeing can sell the license to the 748F to Antonov so they can keep a nose loading freighter flying around. It seems there would be a need for a nose loader. Maybe those clever cats at Antonov can build in a kneeling capability for their licensed 748F too.


The 748F cannot be produced beyond the 2028 emission standards date as it does not meet the required emission standards. So, its dead. It does appear that it will be buried several years prior to that.

To the best of my knowledge Boeing has available parts to make another 3 B748F that they do not have customers for (UPS recently turned down buying those). If there was that much demand for it then those 3 aircraft would already have been sold.

Have a great day,



How does the GEnx not meet the 2028 emission standards? If the 748 does not meet the 2028 emission standards then neither do the hundreds of GE powered 787's

These standards are set for aircraft, not for single engines. So this is a simple case of 2 engines are better then 4 engines.
 
2175301
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:14 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
744SPX wrote:
2175301 wrote:

The 748F cannot be produced beyond the 2028 emission standards date as it does not meet the required emission standards. So, its dead. It does appear that it will be buried several years prior to that.

To the best of my knowledge Boeing has available parts to make another 3 B748F that they do not have customers for (UPS recently turned down buying those). If there was that much demand for it then those 3 aircraft would already have been sold.

Have a great day,



How does the GEnx not meet the 2028 emission standards? If the 748 does not meet the 2028 emission standards then neither do the hundreds of GE powered 787's

These standards are set for aircraft, not for single engines. So this is a simple case of 2 engines are better then 4 engines.


Its about both aerodynamic efficiency of the aircraft and improved fuel efficiency of the engines. Most "NEO"s have both improved engines and new wings to improve the aerodynamics of the aircraft.

The 748 is not aerodynamic enough, even with the newer generation engines.

Have a great day,
 
MD80MKE
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:25 am

On a relevant news, Wichita State University will start to work on STC for 777-300ER conversions as well. From the article it's not clear if they will get the assistance from Boeing for this.
https://www.wichita.edu/about/wsunews-r ... sion_9.php
 
jbs2886
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:32 am

MD80MKE wrote:
On a relevant news, Wichita State University will start to work on STC for 777-300ER conversions as well. From the article it's not clear if they will get the assistance from Boeing for this.
https://www.wichita.edu/about/wsunews-r ... sion_9.php


I saw this previously, but never looked into the answer - this is separate from IAI? So there would be two 777-300ER conversion programs?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:52 am

jbs2886 wrote:
MD80MKE wrote:
On a relevant news, Wichita State University will start to work on STC for 777-300ER conversions as well. From the article it's not clear if they will get the assistance from Boeing for this.
https://www.wichita.edu/about/wsunews-r ... sion_9.php


I saw this previously, but never looked into the answer - this is separate from IAI? So there would be two 777-300ER conversion programs?

Now that is fascinating. Now, I haven't heard of this group before; in particular, I'm not aware of any conversions they have performed currently on the market. Does anyone know more? Going to their web site, they seem to have performed a lot on aluminum fatigue testing.

https://www.wichita.edu/research/NIAR/

I wish them luck, but they'll be at least 2 years behind the IAI/GE offer.

Lightsaber
 
eightcone
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:16 am

lightsaber wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
MD80MKE wrote:
On a relevant news, Wichita State University will start to work on STC for 777-300ER conversions as well. From the article it's not clear if they will get the assistance from Boeing for this.
https://www.wichita.edu/about/wsunews-r ... sion_9.php


I saw this previously, but never looked into the answer - this is separate from IAI? So there would be two 777-300ER conversion programs?

Now that is fascinating. Now, I haven't heard of this group before; in particular, I'm not aware of any conversions they have performed currently on the market. Does anyone know more? Going to their web site, they seem to have performed a lot on aluminum fatigue testing.

https://www.wichita.edu/research/NIAR/

I wish them luck, but they'll be at least 2 years behind the IAI/GE offer.

Lightsaber


Lightsaber,

I believe this is only engineering on the part of Wichita State? The US Army just gave them a contract to rip apart and scan two UH-60 Blackhawks to make digital blueprints.

https://www.kansas.com/news/business/av ... 50676.html

Perhaps a niche capability they (the school) are marketing now?

Edit: I just reread the article and your post. WSU is clearly just research. No idea who the Sequoia Conversions is/are. But, if this is a National Research Institute, I wonder if one of the US3 could get a write off from Uncle Sam for forking over a retired airframe?? Although probably not a 77W from a US3? Maybe a DL 77L?
 
eightcone
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:45 am

Humm, looks like “Sequoia Aircraft Conversions” may have been filed as an LLC on 23Sep2020 in Delaware. 1 week prior to the press release on this. The college is real enough, so what’s the angle on the enterprise of this adventure? A startup using public research money to fund the conversion and then being bought out later?
 
Okcflyer
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:52 pm

Mostly likely the LLC (or some donor) is funding WSU's research pertaining to this project. It is a very interesting development. It does appear that some other conversion company is secretly studying the prospects of conversion. BTW, the research should become public information since it's a public University.

The only reason (that i can think of) for someone to go this route is if and only if Boeing isn't interesting in being a partner or selling the data at an affordable rate.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:58 pm

Okcflyer wrote:
Mostly likely the LLC (or some donor) is funding WSU's research pertaining to this project. It is a very interesting development. It does appear that some other conversion company is secretly studying the prospects of conversion. BTW, the research should become public information since it's a public University.

The only reason (that i can think of) for someone to go this route is if and only if Boeing isn't interesting in being a partner or selling the data at an affordable rate.

Boeing has refused to support freighter conversions as they have given the impression they only support factory built or BCF (Boeing licensed) freighters. IAI does SFs, others fo P2F as they each market their own.

The 777-300ERSF is complicated by the need to add software to mitigate stress on the wing at the highest weights. We discussed that early in the thread.

IAI is already going down this path of scanning then reinforcing. With CFRP, it is so much easier to reinforce than Aluminum, so it is not surprising IAI went down this path.

I see a large market for 777-300ER freight conversions. If this was a normal market, the IAI 777-300ERSF would have been an early pathfinder conversion happening before the feed stock was really correctly priced for conversions. With 844 777-300ER orders and a young fleet, I think we will see 300 to 500 conversions. There is room in the market for two players.

Lightsaber
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:10 pm

eightcone wrote:
Humm, looks like “Sequoia Aircraft Conversions” may have been filed as an LLC on 23Sep2020 in Delaware. 1 week prior to the press release on this. The college is real enough, so what’s the angle on the enterprise of this adventure? A startup using public research money to fund the conversion and then being bought out later?


Spinoffs like that are not unheard of in the academic world. Basic research was done within a university, then an LLC is created to commercialise the development. this takes the risk off university's balance sheet, allows external investment, etc.
 
Okcflyer
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:20 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
eightcone wrote:
Humm, looks like “Sequoia Aircraft Conversions” may have been filed as an LLC on 23Sep2020 in Delaware. 1 week prior to the press release on this. The college is real enough, so what’s the angle on the enterprise of this adventure? A startup using public research money to fund the conversion and then being bought out later?


Spinoffs like that are not unheard of in the academic world. Basic research was done within a university, then an LLC is created to commercialise the development. this takes the risk off university's balance sheet, allows external investment, etc.


This is a bit different as it appears the research is not done yet. Rather, the University will be doing the work/research in partnership with Sequoia.
 
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747classic
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:04 am

N557CC has been ferried from San Bernadino (SBD) towards Tel Aviv (TLV) at February 22th 2021, after complertion of the airframe "zero" testing. During these tests multiple parameters have been recorded to get the "Base line info", for the increased stress calculations (reverse engineering) after P-F conversion.

See : https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N55 ... /KSBD/LLBG

N557CC, TLV, Feb 23th 2021
Image

Original uploaded by Asaf Greenboum, see : instagram.com/asafg11
 
rbavfan
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:51 am

Revelation wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Finally! A major freight conversion firm steps forward with a 77W conversion. :hyper:

GECAS is wise, by having a conversion, this puts a floor on 77W vales (but not other 777s) and for GE, extends overhaul demand.

This will slightly reduce demand for the Queen (748F), but probably more of an impact on 777F and possibly A333P2F.

Something has to soak up all the off lease EK 76Ws. :duck:

Hopefully IAI figures out a cheap way to replace floor beams.

Lightsaber

Late Edit. Future use of 779s. ;)
Seriously, is this timed to help sell 779s, or what?

Will this product ever consume 134 77W that EK will be retiring?

Or a significant percentage of the 844 77Ws produced?

The initial offering is 15 firm and 15 options.

Enough to do a solid launch, but enough to suggest it will prop up resale value of retiring airliners?

I guess it's nice to have a resale story to tell 777x customers.

Will it fit into gates at FX or UPS hubs?

Is it "too much plane" to replace MD-11s?

Will Boeing be compelled to offer a competing conversion?

lightsaber wrote:
Please look at 748F backlog. For UPS and FedEx, their cargo density is low enough they will probably order no more 747s.

As 16 of the 20 unfilled 748F positions are for UPS, the viability of production goes away. Boeing has only about 20 months before they must start planning the shutdown of the 747 line. Unless there is a final order, this is it for the Queen.

Now, as nose door freighters disappear, the premium for that cargo will rise. But we are a long way from that scenario.

Agree.

UPS has enough 747 capacity in its fleet to deal with any urgent need dof high density or oversized cargo.

773F will be cheaper to acquire and maintain than 748F.


With the Package freight market FedEx & UPS regularly volume out the MD-11F before they hit the weight limits. Also both carriers have 747's UPS has the -8's so there is space for them.
 
N965UW
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:06 pm

2175301 wrote:
To the best of my knowledge Boeing has available parts to make another 3 B748F that they do not have customers for (UPS recently turned down buying those). If there was that much demand for it then those 3 aircraft would already have been sold.


Update from 6 months later: Atlas has taken these, plus one more to make a total of 4 B748F. As discussed in that thread last month, there was demand for 4 between UPS and Volga-Dnepr, but they were ultimately tuned down. Atlas simply swooped in and took these final 4. The only thing that makes these 748s "new" is that they haven't been built yet. Otherwise the production slots and components have been there for a while. So the demand was there, but it took time to manifest.

Speaking of Atlas, I'm curious as to what the world's largest 747 operator will look like decades from now when the 747 ages out. I would expect Atlas to order at least some 77W conversions, although the 747s will soldier on long enough for the 777XF to roll out. In that case, Atlas may likely order large numbers of 777XF instead, perhaps on a 1:1 replacement basis and once again becoming the world's largest operator of the type. The 77W may act as a stopgap solution depending on if it's fitted with AMC floor positions and how well it handles heavier military cargo (a sizeable part of Atlas' business).
 
amdiesen
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:57 pm

Charles Kauffman's subtitle "Decline in 777-300ER values makes conversion feasible"...
https://cargofacts.com/allposts/convers ... induction/
...speaks to the economics portion of this thread's debate. The idea that he chose to make that statement prominent in a 'heads up" article, touch work starts this summer, mirrors our concerns.

Two lively soap box issues have been economics and paper/aspiration specs v. real world specs.
embark soap box __-- :old: (1)amortized-costs/time and expected life-of-aircraft is under-discussed in favor of purchase price, (2)when a completed frame rolls out of the IAI shop it will be middle aged. Maintenance costs of a carrier will mirror moving from middle age to old age. (2) :old: ----____ disembark soap box

Is he inspiring a reader's interest or is he highlighting an industry concern?
 
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:07 pm

amdiesen wrote:
Charles Kauffman's subtitle "Decline in 777-300ER values makes conversion feasible"...
https://cargofacts.com/allposts/convers ... induction/
...speaks to the economics portion of this thread's debate. The idea that he chose to make that statement prominent in a 'heads up" article, touch work starts this summer, mirrors our concerns.

Two lively soap box issues have been economics and paper/aspiration specs v. real world specs.
embark soap box __-- :old: (1)amortized-costs/time and expected life-of-aircraft is under-discussed in favor of purchase price, (2)when a completed frame rolls out of the IAI shop it will be middle aged. Maintenance costs of a carrier will mirror moving from middle age to old age. (2) :old: ----____ disembark soap box

Is he inspiring a reader's interest or is he highlighting an industry concern?

They completed the critical design review. That is a milestone.

Any converted freighter has worse maintenance than a new build. I would expect that discussion was to highlight the 777 maintenance cost advantage over the 744. The soapbox issues are just why some buy new build freighters.

This is progress.

Lightsaber
 
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747classic
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:24 pm

The wear and tear of all converted airframes will increase , because the operational weights (in this case MZFW and MLW) will be increased and during P-F conversion not all (internal) structural parts can or will (due costs) be replaced or reinforced.
 
wjcandee
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:50 pm

As to the "But How Long Will They Last?" question.

ATSG is operating 12 767-200BDSF freighters for Amazon, many with double-digit Boeing line numbers. These aren't like charter 727s: these are running basically-daily on routes where they have to function reliably. And they do.

ABX Air has now operated several 767-200BDSFs all the way to the LOV: 50,000 cycles. And that's flying them essentially-daily. One of those essentially-daily-operation 767-200s that is still in service is N740AX, line number 6. Delivered to DL in March 1983, so 38 years old. Converted June 2006 -- so 15 years ago. She has about 6300 cycles left before the LOV. About 9 years at current usage.

IAI says that the aircraft are good for 20+ years after conversion. That has certainly been true with the 767-200BDSF.
 
jbs2886
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:32 pm

wjcandee wrote:
As to the "But How Long Will They Last?" question.

ATSG is operating 12 767-200BDSF freighters for Amazon, many with double-digit Boeing line numbers. These aren't like charter 727s: these are running basically-daily on routes where they have to function reliably. And they do.

ABX Air has now operated several 767-200BDSFs all the way to the LOV: 50,000 cycles. And that's flying them essentially-daily. One of those essentially-daily-operation 767-200s that is still in service is N740AX, line number 6. Delivered to DL in March 1983, so 38 years old. Converted June 2006 -- so 15 years ago. She has about 6300 cycles left before the LOV. About 9 years at current usage.

IAI says that the aircraft are good for 20+ years after conversion. That has certainly been true with the 767-200BDSF.


It is absolutely incredible the longevity of those aircraft. I'm really curious to see what Amazon does - in my view this capacity has to be replaced. While there is decent 767 feedstock again and Amazon may double down on 737s (possibly A321s), I do believe there is a real chance of a new-build order. Whether this is 763Fs or new rumored 764F, who knows, but I can't see A350F or 777F (does the forthcoming CVG hub change that though?).

Are these flying as heavily as the -300s? If not, possible you replace 3 -200s with 2 -300s, etc.
 
wjcandee
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:59 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Are these [767-200BDSFs] flying as heavily as the -300s? If not, possible you replace 3 -200s with 2 -300s, etc.


Well, I randomly picked N768AX. Actually, not-totally-randomly, because I like the retro Airborne Express livery. Delivered to ANA in May 1983. Line Number 54. Currently has about 46000 cycles. Dry-leased to Amazon.

Here's how much she flew in the last 10 days or so. Not shabby. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N768AX

Basically, 3 legs a day every day in the last week, including multiple transcontinental flights (e.g. ABE-SMF, ABE-ONT). Hard to see how a 2:3 replacement with a brand-new aircraft would be possible.

All ABX Air flies for Amazon is these converted 767-200s. And they are rightfully-proud of their top-of-the-line on-time record and dispatch-reliability record. (Quality, experienced, in-house maintenance probably has a lot to do with that, but still...the fact is that a nearly-40-year-old airframe can be a reliable platform to fly on express missions.)
 
amdiesen
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:11 am

lightsaber wrote:
They completed the critical design review. That is a milestone.
...

This is progress.
Lightsaber

respects to IAI's ambition and progress

747classic wrote:
The wear and tear of all converted airframes will increase , because the operational weights (in this case MZFW and MLW) will be increased and during P-F conversion not all (internal) structural parts can or will (due costs) be replaced or reinforced.

thank you. this application and its effects are under-discussed and less-understood; makes one wonder how it is compounded on a larger and longer cylinder. Fairly courageous to reverse engineer and get independently certified. One would also wonder if they have gov't express or implied backing to take all of the above risks/time.


painting the b773*f sandbox
Thinking in terms of a market 'universe' and every new or converted offering being a discrete point. The utility of an airframe covers an area radiating out from that discrete point. Where the utility of two frames overlaps becomes a competitive 'union'. (one might consider adding an additional 'range' axis to the Cargofacts graph)
Conversion and new-build production cycles have a sunrise and a twilight. Frames purchased close to the sunrise have a longer expected economic life than those purchased close twilight; technological obsolescence.

The b773er*f competes with the b778f, the a350-950 and the b772f.
The a350-950f likely connotes an a350-900 frame where the one frame longer landing gear structure of the six bogey a35J is used plus the wings and engines of the -1000. Stretching would add volume utility at the cost of density utility. Encroachment, increasing the union between the two, would favor b773ersf in the marketplace. An a350f fixating on maximizing its natural sub-universe becomes more probable. An ancillary effect is that it twilights b772f production. The sun-rising b773er*f would then compete with the a350f for b744cf replacements with airlines that primarily purchase new build planes and in the express market.
The b778f design is affected differently by the same forces. This will require improvement/re-engineering shifting along a general cargo density utility. Here the union is less pronounced as sophisticated carriers want the economics of long-term asset amortization and maximized reliability. The b773er*f conversion eats away at the express carriers and nibbles at potential smaller orders making the b778fs business case thinner. However, the frame's introduction creates a b772f used market that dilutes b773er*f sales.
__-- As freighters are not stand alone business cases, mosaics of ancillary production will motivate boardrooms to green light these projects. Airframers will likely allow/encourage airlines to convert VLA passenger orders to freighter as a means of supporting the production and supply chain.--__

One can panel cargo airlines into two groups; ones that purchase new aircraft and ones that opportunistically purchase used aircraft. Interestingly b773ersf targets the first group as the 'opportunistic' carriers have wallet or the persistence in demand challenges. The b744*cfs are replacement candidates; however, half of these are operated by the 'opportunistic' airlines.
CargoJet is scheduled to be the first crossover buyer/leasee. __--they were feasible before and now they are more feasible?.. ie within reach of more buyers?--__
Interesting is how the b773ersf will create ripples through carriers. Kallita will use the conversion to replace b744cfs and its current/future relationship with DHL is a factor. Atlas's decision will require 'pencil sharpening' analytics and client relationship assessments. Where Fedex will likely use the b773bcf derivative for growth. To the relief of soap box salespeople, the paper a350-950f will give airlines a choice Herr Gerber did not have. UPS and Cargolux will likely pass on the b773ersf; but not without Mr Forson using the subject for brand-awareness press opportunities.
 
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Tue May 04, 2021 1:25 pm

Further investment in the programme just announced.

Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) will set up a conversion site for its 777-300ERSF program in Seoul as part of a new agreement with Sharp Technics K and Incheon International Airport.


https://cargofacts.com/allposts/busines ... 024/?amp=1
 
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue May 04, 2021 4:19 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I speculate Boeing isn't helping as after 777-300ERSF entry into service (EIS), only airlines needing 777F range will have to buy it; my back of the envelope looking at routes has about 50% of 777F routes within 777ERSF range. So this will hurt Boeing.


Only if the new offering can be produced in significant numbers. Do we have any idea how many conversions could be done per year?
 
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue May 04, 2021 6:23 pm

inkjet7 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I speculate Boeing isn't helping as after 777-300ERSF entry into service (EIS), only airlines needing 777F range will have to buy it; my back of the envelope looking at routes has about 50% of 777F routes within 777ERSF range. So this will hurt Boeing.


Only if the new offering can be produced in significant numbers. Do we have any idea how many conversions could be done per year?

I initially few, but IAI has traditionally licensed their conversions (e.g. AeroMexico). Since every MRO house is looking for work, I see a high upper bound.

Lightsaber
 
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue May 04, 2021 6:49 pm

lightsaber wrote:
inkjet7 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I speculate Boeing isn't helping as after 777-300ERSF entry into service (EIS), only airlines needing 777F range will have to buy it; my back of the envelope looking at routes has about 50% of 777F routes within 777ERSF range. So this will hurt Boeing.


Only if the new offering can be produced in significant numbers. Do we have any idea how many conversions could be done per year?

I initially few, but IAI has traditionally licensed their conversions (e.g. AeroMexico). Since every MRO house is looking for work, I see a high upper bound.

Lightsaber


If read correctly, the Seoul line doubles their output capability to 12/year. Not inconsequential.
 
jbs2886
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue May 04, 2021 7:07 pm

Spacepope wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
inkjet7 wrote:

Only if the new offering can be produced in significant numbers. Do we have any idea how many conversions could be done per year?

I initially few, but IAI has traditionally licensed their conversions (e.g. AeroMexico). Since every MRO house is looking for work, I see a high upper bound.

Lightsaber


If read correctly, the Seoul line doubles their output capability to 12/year. Not inconsequential.


Agree 12 777 freighters is pretty significant.
 
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue May 04, 2021 7:47 pm

A330freak wrote:
Israel Aerospace Industries has launched a conversion program for the 777-300er with the aircraft entering service in 2022. This is being supported by GECAS which has an order for 15 conversions with 15 options.
Image


Although it is a somewhat simple livery, it looks very beautiful on that plane.
 
jbs2886
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue May 04, 2021 7:49 pm

FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
A330freak wrote:
Israel Aerospace Industries has launched a conversion program for the 777-300er with the aircraft entering service in 2022. This is being supported by GECAS which has an order for 15 conversions with 15 options.
Image


Although it is a somewhat simple livery, it looks very beautiful on that plane.


Lessor liveries never (maybe an exception) get applied to a plane, so why would they spend money designing one?
 
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Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Tue May 04, 2021 7:54 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
FiscAutTecGarte wrote:
A330freak wrote:
Israel Aerospace Industries has launched a conversion program for the 777-300er with the aircraft entering service in 2022. This is being supported by GECAS which has an order for 15 conversions with 15 options.
Image


Although it is a somewhat simple livery, it looks very beautiful on that plane.


Lessor liveries never (maybe an exception) get applied to a plane, so why would they spend money designing one?


I know... just commenting on how pretty the plane looks.... that fade from blue to white down the entire fuselage of the plane, no windows to break it up.... it;s pretty, even if just a render....
 
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Wed May 05, 2021 6:06 pm

Two lines to open for 777-300ERSF conversion. Two conversion lines.
https://cargofacts.com/allposts/busines ... -2024/amp/

This is good news. Is there a summary of all sites?

Lightsaber
 
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Thu May 06, 2021 5:08 am

How much effect will increasing fuel costs have on the prospects for this conversion? How do the economics change if prices rise to 2014 levels?

https://www.iata.org/en/publications/ec ... l-monitor/

Also, what effect will a leveling off of freight demand have? And/or an increase in passenger flight cargo capacity?

Inquiring minds want to know...
 
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B777-300ERSF gains traction

Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:00 pm

Two more options converted by Kalitta. Conversion orders increased.

https://www.aircargonews.net/services/f ... nversions/
 
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Re: B777-300ERSF gains traction

Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:23 pm

worldranger wrote:
Two more options converted by Kalitta. Conversion orders increased.

https://www.aircargonews.net/services/f ... nversions/


Interesting that Tim Clark is talking about having more B77W's he's looking to have converted to freighters. Wouldn't it be interesting if he could convince his bosses let him set up DWC as a global cargo distribution hub to compete with FedEx, DHL and UPS? It is looking like it will be a few years before EK's passenger business returns to normal, if it ever does. This would give them something to fall back on...
 
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Re: B777-300ERSF gains traction

Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:53 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
worldranger wrote:
Two more options converted by Kalitta. Conversion orders increased.

https://www.aircargonews.net/services/f ... nversions/


Interesting that Tim Clark is talking about having more B77W's he's looking to have converted to freighters. Wouldn't it be interesting if he could convince his bosses let him set up DWC as a global cargo distribution hub to compete with FedEx, DHL and UPS? It is looking like it will be a few years before EK's passenger business returns to normal, if it ever does. This would give them something to fall back on...


DHL has a hub at Dubai. EK should work together while expanding. In my opinion, so much of EK's strength was belly freight to DWC (or vice versa).

https://www.ti-insight.com/dhl-express- ... dubai-hub/

A narrowbody hub is needed. I do not know bilateral limitations regionally on freight.

Lightsaber
 
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Re: B777-300ERSF gains traction

Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:04 pm

GECAS ordering 3 more:

GECAS has announced three options have been upgraded to firm orders with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) whereby they will convert an additional three of the lessor’s 777-300ER passenger planes to freighters.

This brings GECAS total commitment since the launch of the “Big Twin Program” in July 2019 to 18 firm (including the prototype aircraft from GECAS’ owned portfolio) with IAI and a remaining 12 options.

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=m ... 664c40c47f

IAI definitely has a viable program.

Does anyone have a list of all orders?

Lightsaber
 
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Re: B777-300ERSF gains traction

Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:38 pm

lightsaber wrote:
GECAS ordering 3 more:

GECAS has announced three options have been upgraded to firm orders with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) whereby they will convert an additional three of the lessor’s 777-300ER passenger planes to freighters.

This brings GECAS total commitment since the launch of the “Big Twin Program” in July 2019 to 18 firm (including the prototype aircraft from GECAS’ owned portfolio) with IAI and a remaining 12 options.

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=m ... 664c40c47f

IAI definitely has a viable program.

Does anyone have a list of all orders?

Lightsaber


I'm searching around the web and found this interesting article from last year discussing the cost comparison of the B777-300ERSF to the price of used B777LRF's, plus a bit of cost data on the emerging A330PF program.

https://www.iba.aero/insight/a-new-era- ... reighters/

It appears that GECAS has control of all of the 18 of current ERSF's on order, 3 of which have upcoming lease commitments from Kalitta Air. I think DHL is the motivator for these Kalitta's leases, which may mean that other DHL partners, especially the Atlas airline group, may also be future users. Cargolux should be another target and Volga-Depnr.
 
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Polot
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Re: B777-300ERSF gains traction

Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:58 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
GECAS ordering 3 more:

GECAS has announced three options have been upgraded to firm orders with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) whereby they will convert an additional three of the lessor’s 777-300ER passenger planes to freighters.

This brings GECAS total commitment since the launch of the “Big Twin Program” in July 2019 to 18 firm (including the prototype aircraft from GECAS’ owned portfolio) with IAI and a remaining 12 options.

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=m ... 664c40c47f

IAI definitely has a viable program.

Does anyone have a list of all orders?

Lightsaber


I'm searching around the web and found this interesting article from last year discussing the cost comparison of the B777-300ERSF to the price of used B777LRF's, plus a bit of cost data on the emerging A330PF program.

https://www.iba.aero/insight/a-new-era- ... reighters/

It appears that GECAS has control of all of the 18 of current ERSF's on order, 3 of which have upcoming lease commitments from Kalitta Air. I think DHL is the motivator for these Kalitta's leases, which may mean that other DHL partners, especially the Atlas airline group, may also be future users. Cargolux should be another target and Volga-Depnr.

Cargojet (another DHL partner) has also committed to the plane. Unsure how many exactly.
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