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Revelation
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Re: B777-300ERSF gains traction

Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:03 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
I'm searching around the web and found this interesting article from last year discussing the cost comparison of the B777-300ERSF to the price of used B777LRF's, plus a bit of cost data on the emerging A330PF program.

https://www.iba.aero/insight/a-new-era- ... reighters/

It appears that GECAS has control of all of the 18 of current ERSF's on order, 3 of which have upcoming lease commitments from Kalitta Air. I think DHL is the motivator for these Kalitta's leases, which may mean that other DHL partners, especially the Atlas airline group, may also be future users. Cargolux should be another target and Volga-Depnr.

Post #1's linked source tells us Katilla is now taking five from GECAS...
 
LDRA
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Re: B777-300ERSF gains traction

Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:05 am

Any new news on 777LR conversion? I thought the LRs don't have composite floor beams so should help with conversion
 
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Spacepope
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Re: B777-300ERSF gains traction

Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:26 am

LDRA wrote:
Any new news on 777LR conversion? I thought the LRs don't have composite floor beams so should help with conversion


Nothing concrete and official from IAI yet.
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: B777-300ERSF gains traction

Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:50 am

LDRA wrote:
Any new news on 777LR conversion? I thought the LRs don't have composite floor beams so should help with conversion


The 777LR has composite floor beams. The 777F has metal floor beams aft of the cockpit section 41.
 
DaCubbyBearBar
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Re: B777-300ERSF gains traction

Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:13 am

I LOVE IT!! Can’t wait to see those freighters at my airport….. maybe a little too big, but hopeful
 
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ojjunior
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Looks like the 777-300ERSF is taking shape.

Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:28 pm

https://twitter.com/aviationbrk/status/1425199866490368005?s=19

As a 77W lover I can' t wait to see the final result.

Does anyone know the previous owner of this bird?
 
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Polot
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Re: Looks like the 777-300ERSF is taking shape.

Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:36 pm

Ex-EK. Was A6-EBB. Going to Kalitta Air after conversion.
 
RoyalBrunei757
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Re: Looks like the 777-300ERSF is taking shape.

Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:04 am

ojjunior wrote:
https://twitter.com/aviationbrk/status/1425199866490368005?s=19

As a 77W lover I can' t wait to see the final result.

Does anyone know the previous owner of this bird?

Nice video, finally they are getting it moving! Kalitta Air has booked five for delivery so far as launch customer. There might be more. GECAS has booked 18 slots with 12 options, including those five of Kalitta Air. (https://www.aircargonews.net/services/f ... nversions/). According to Boeing Order and Delivery Summary Sheets, GECAS has 50 B77W booked and delivered under its name, and with other 829 B77Ws, plenty of feedstock for conversion.

First two airframes up for conversion are:
N779CK 32785 / 540 Boeing 777-36NER
N780CK 32787 / 542 Boeing 777-36NER

Product brochure by IAI https://www.iai.co.il/drupal/sites/defa ... ochure.pdf
 
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:10 am

Coolest part of the video was watching the aircraft rise as the engine was unbolted.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:41 pm

Structural modifications started on 8/12/2021
https://iainorthamerica.com/iai-and-gecas-777-300ersf/

Per the link, the modifications are expected to take 130 days. My math says that means very late 2021 (12/20 to be exact) the plane rolls out (assuming they meant calendar days and not work days), but any delay pushes the roll out into 2022. With expected EIS in 2022, that will be an intense flight test program, in my opinion.

Lightsaber
 
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:08 pm

I wonder which frames will be the ones going to W8, which has also agreed to lease three frames. I would be surprised if the K4 frames aren’t also with DHL (hybrid livery).

As for other ideal conversion candidates, I would say that once their A35Ks come, JL could sell its B77Ws for conversion as low cycle examples (as high J frames, they never did many short hops, and their oldest frame is nearly 20 years old, in fact the oldest B77W).
 
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zeke
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:25 am

lightsaber wrote:
Structural modifications started on 8/12/2021
https://iainorthamerica.com/iai-and-gecas-777-300ersf/

Per the link, the modifications are expected to take 130 days. My math says that means very late 2021 (12/20 to be exact) the plane rolls out (assuming they meant calendar days and not work days), but any delay pushes the roll out into 2022. With expected EIS in 2022, that will be an intense flight test program, in my opinion.

Lightsaber


My guess that will be more like mid January (assuming no work on Shabbat). Then they have to still complete the STC certification which will take some time as they have no certification data to build on.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:59 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I wonder which frames will be the ones going to W8, which has also agreed to lease three frames. I would be surprised if the K4 frames aren’t also with DHL (hybrid livery).

As for other ideal conversion candidates, I would say that once their A35Ks come, JL could sell its B77Ws for conversion as low cycle examples (as high J frames, they never did many short hops, and their oldest frame is nearly 20 years old, in fact the oldest B77W).



In terms of JL, given they have some of the oldest 77Ws around, I guess it would depend on price maybe? But there will be plenty of younger frames that will become available, EK frames for example May have slightly high cycles given they have separate fleets some which don’t do long haul.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:22 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I wonder which frames will be the ones going to W8, which has also agreed to lease three frames. I would be surprised if the K4 frames aren’t also with DHL (hybrid livery).

As for other ideal conversion candidates, I would say that once their A35Ks come, JL could sell its B77Ws for conversion as low cycle examples (as high J frames, they never did many short hops, and their oldest frame is nearly 20 years old, in fact the oldest B77W).



In terms of JL, given they have some of the oldest 77Ws around, I guess it would depend on price maybe? But there will be plenty of younger frames that will become available, EK frames for example May have slightly high cycles given they have separate fleets some which don’t do long haul.


Oldest frames, but low cycles. Freight forwarders tend to rack up cycles more than hours. This is why some B763s with more than 110,000 hours, but under 120,000 hours, have been converted to freighters.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:56 pm

This article (yesterday) notes Amazon is looking for long range used cargo aircraft.
https://cargofacts.com/allposts/carrier ... china/amp/

The article is short of real facts other than Amazon is looking to replace trans-Pacific charters.

Lightsaber
 
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Polot
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:58 pm

lightsaber wrote:
This article (yesterday) notes Amazon is looking for long range used cargo aircraft.
https://cargofacts.com/allposts/carrier ... china/amp/

The article is short of real facts other than Amazon is looking to replace trans-Pacific charters.

Lightsaber

So basically used 777s (or 747s).
 
Cardude2
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:38 pm

Polot wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
This article (yesterday) notes Amazon is looking for long range used cargo aircraft.
https://cargofacts.com/allposts/carrier ... china/amp/

The article is short of real facts other than Amazon is looking to replace trans-Pacific charters.

Lightsaber

So basically used 777s (or 747s).


or the ERSF were here for. Or a330's. or mammoths 777-200LR conversion of theex delta birds
 
Cardude2
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Re: B777-300ERSF gains traction

Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:49 pm

LDRA wrote:
Any new news on 777LR conversion? I thought the LRs don't have composite floor beams so should help with conversion


There's mammoth which is a new conversion company converting all 10 ex delta 777-200lr's
 
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Stitch
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:33 pm

I would expect Amazon would be more interested in 777-300ERSF than 777-200LRSF since they likely "cube out" a plane before they "weight out" one.

Amazon were at one time tied to a rumored "A330-1000" new-build freighter so not surprised they are looking at A330-200 and/or A330-300 P2F conversions.
 
CX747
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:41 am

Stitch wrote:
I would expect Amazon would be more interested in 777-300ERSF than 777-200LRSF since they likely "cube out" a plane before they "weight out" one.

Amazon were at one time tied to a rumored "A330-1000" new-build freighter so not surprised they are looking at A330-200 and/or A330-300 P2F conversions.


Agree that Amazon would be looking for -300ERSFs. Seeing that Amazon cubes out, before hitting anything else, I am slightly surprised to see the A330. Trans-Pac is a long haul and I believe it better suits the 77W's size and additional space.
 
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:26 am

CX747 wrote:
Stitch wrote:
I would expect Amazon would be more interested in 777-300ERSF than 777-200LRSF since they likely "cube out" a plane before they "weight out" one.

Amazon were at one time tied to a rumored "A330-1000" new-build freighter so not surprised they are looking at A330-200 and/or A330-300 P2F conversions.


Agree that Amazon would be looking for -300ERSFs. Seeing that Amazon cubes out, before hitting anything else, I am slightly surprised to see the A330. Trans-Pac is a long haul and I believe it better suits the 77W's size and additional space.

That is also my opinion, but Amazon looks at cash flow heavily and so the initial purchase price, including conversion costs, are always part of the equation.

They were clear they were looking for used aircraft. Otherwise, they haven't committed. They will cube out and will be light enough the 777-ERSF has merit. However, when I do a "back of the envelope" spreadsheet, the A332 conversion or better for Airbus the A330F (factory A332F) might have a place. That said, I would suspect their demand outpaces any size and if there was an A380SF, they would buy it. :duck: Ok, I don't mean to start a discussion that I do not think is happening, but I'm being snarky to note Amazon needs volume. However, I do not believe the 747 conversions would meet their financial targets.

Lightsaber
 
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:29 pm

lightsaber wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Stitch wrote:
I would expect Amazon would be more interested in 777-300ERSF than 777-200LRSF since they likely "cube out" a plane before they "weight out" one.

Amazon were at one time tied to a rumored "A330-1000" new-build freighter so not surprised they are looking at A330-200 and/or A330-300 P2F conversions.


Agree that Amazon would be looking for -300ERSFs. Seeing that Amazon cubes out, before hitting anything else, I am slightly surprised to see the A330. Trans-Pac is a long haul and I believe it better suits the 77W's size and additional space.

That is also my opinion, but Amazon looks at cash flow heavily and so the initial purchase price, including conversion costs, are always part of the equation.

They were clear they were looking for used aircraft. Otherwise, they haven't committed. They will cube out and will be light enough the 777-ERSF has merit. However, when I do a "back of the envelope" spreadsheet, the A332 conversion or better for Airbus the A330F (factory A332F) might have a place. That said, I would suspect their demand outpaces any size and if there was an A380SF, they would buy it. :duck: Ok, I don't mean to start a discussion that I do not think is happening, but I'm being snarky to note Amazon needs volume. However, I do not believe the 747 conversions would meet their financial targets.

Lightsaber


Haven´t seen any figures mentioned for the 777-300ERSF, though some articles mentioned 10 A330-300P2F "with crew" (guess this means ACMI leases).
 
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Stitch
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:36 pm

Flying-Tiger wrote:
Haven´t seen any figures mentioned for the 777-300ERSF, though some articles mentioned 10 A330-300P2F "with crew" (guess this means ACMI leases).


Yes per reports Amazon Air will use CMI leases via Air Transport Services Group to provide crew, maintenance, and insurance on the frames they purchase outright.
 
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:05 pm

Stitch wrote:
Flying-Tiger wrote:
Haven´t seen any figures mentioned for the 777-300ERSF, though some articles mentioned 10 A330-300P2F "with crew" (guess this means ACMI leases).


Yes per reports Amazon Air will use CMI leases via Air Transport Services Group to provide crew, maintenance, and insurance on the frames they purchase outright.

Is there a link on larger aircraft? Amazon uses ATSG for 767-300 freighters. I'm interested on whatever widebody wins, but these might be for two separate purposes... It is routine for vaguely worded PR for 767 flying.
https://www.freightwaves.com/news/amazo ... freighters

Lightsaber
 
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Stitch
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:24 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Is there a link on larger aircraft? Amazon uses ATSG for 767-300 freighters. I'm interested on whatever widebody wins, but these might be for two separate purposes... It is routine for vaguely worded PR for 767 flying.


Not that I saw, but Amazon has evidently invested directly into ATSG so if they have the ability to provide for A330s, I would imagine they are the front-runner.
 
texl1649
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:05 pm

Cardude2 wrote:
Polot wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
This article (yesterday) notes Amazon is looking for long range used cargo aircraft.
https://cargofacts.com/allposts/carrier ... china/amp/

The article is short of real facts other than Amazon is looking to replace trans-Pacific charters.

Lightsaber

So basically used 777s (or 747s).


or the ERSF were here for. Or a330's. or mammoths 777-200LR conversion of theex delta birds


The Bloomberg article is the better one, I believe. I think they are looking for used 77W’s and 10 A333’s both. No idea on the total split, but I’d guess the 333’s would stop in ANC. Not sure where they’d be landing specifically but a lightly loaded 77W should be able to go direct, correct?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... from-china

Amazon is in the market for refurbished cargo versions of one of the largest twin-engine passenger jets currently flying, Boeing’s 777-300ER, along with conversions of Airbus’s popular A330-300 wide-body aircraft, said the people, who requested anonymity to discuss confidential matters. Both models are a step up from the mid-size Boeing 767 aircraft that have served as the backbone of Amazon’s fleet for five years.

Converted Boeing 777s would let Amazon directly import products from China and other countries, the people said, stepping up the company’s rivalry with United Parcel Service Inc. and FedEx Corp.


Amazon is seeking 10 Airbus A330-300 aircraft, as well as crews to fly them. The company’s request for proposals, described by three people familiar with the situation, is expected to be fulfilled by planes converted from passenger use. The company is also seeking an unspecified number of 777-300ERSF aircraft, according to two of the people.

It’s unclear where Amazon would acquire the planes and whether they would be purchased or leased. The company declined to comment.
 
wjcandee
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:54 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The article is short of real facts other than Amazon is looking to replace trans-Pacific charters.
Lightsaber


I'm wondering whether Amazon's intent is to do more than replace currently-contracted charter lift. They have their international freight-forwarder license, and it probably behooves them to move many of their in-China sellers onto Transportation By Amazon, where rather than have customers (as my g/f has been) pissed off to realize that that product that they just bought is being shipped by some ungodly-slow postal-service cheapo method from China, and won't be here for a month. That's a whole new market of Marketplace sellers that could take advantage of Amazon's delivery network. And maybe sell the service to Alibaba or similar, like they sell Amazon Checkout to off-Web-Site sellers.

Maybe a whole new venture.
 
wjcandee
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:01 pm

As to crewing, I seriously doubt that Amazon will go ACMI with anybody, and that anybody would want to do long-term ACMI for them at scale. Because of the absurd capital investment that an ACMI provider would have to make on spec, and to maximize its flexibility, Amazon takes the capital risk on these ventures by buying or long-term-dry-leasing the airframe. Amazon then does a CMI contract, terminable at will but for a short term (say 3-5 years) with an operator. That incentivizes the operator to do the work reliably, and contractors now know from experience that Amazon rewards service quality and is not just looking for the lowest price.

ATSG at the moment is handling the growth well at its two cargo carriers. Where things go in the future, we will see. Atlas will certainly be pushing Southern as a potential operator of 777s, although ATSG would certainly be able to crew them.

As to crewing the A330s, it's all doable. Just a matter of proving that one can do it. Ryan International used to be a master at crewing onesie-twosies of aircraft types, bringing them on their certificate and operating them as Part 121 aircraft. A couple of A320s here, a few 727s there. And they would get it done in just a couple of months.
 
bigb
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:32 am

wjcandee wrote:
As to crewing, I seriously doubt that Amazon will go ACMI with anybody, and that anybody would want to do long-term ACMI for them at scale. Because of the absurd capital investment that an ACMI provider would have to make on spec, and to maximize its flexibility, Amazon takes the capital risk on these ventures by buying or long-term-dry-leasing the airframe. Amazon then does a CMI contract, terminable at will but for a short term (say 3-5 years) with an operator. That incentivizes the operator to do the work reliably, and contractors now know from experience that Amazon rewards service quality and is not just looking for the lowest price.

ATSG at the moment is handling the growth well at its two cargo carriers. Where things go in the future, we will see. Atlas will certainly be pushing Southern as a potential operator of 777s, although ATSG would certainly be able to crew them.

As to crewing the A330s, it's all doable. Just a matter of proving that one can do it. Ryan International used to be a master at crewing onesie-twosies of aircraft types, bringing them on their certificate and operating them as Part 121 aircraft. A couple of A320s here, a few 727s there. And they would get it done in just a couple of months.


There will be no more Southern after November. SOC will
be finished and it will be all Atlas with those 777s.
 
wjcandee
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:44 am

bigb wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
As to crewing, I seriously doubt that Amazon will go ACMI with anybody, and that anybody would want to do long-term ACMI for them at scale. Because of the absurd capital investment that an ACMI provider would have to make on spec, and to maximize its flexibility, Amazon takes the capital risk on these ventures by buying or long-term-dry-leasing the airframe. Amazon then does a CMI contract, terminable at will but for a short term (say 3-5 years) with an operator. That incentivizes the operator to do the work reliably, and contractors now know from experience that Amazon rewards service quality and is not just looking for the lowest price.

ATSG at the moment is handling the growth well at its two cargo carriers. Where things go in the future, we will see. Atlas will certainly be pushing Southern as a potential operator of 777s, although ATSG would certainly be able to crew them.

As to crewing the A330s, it's all doable. Just a matter of proving that one can do it. Ryan International used to be a master at crewing onesie-twosies of aircraft types, bringing them on their certificate and operating them as Part 121 aircraft. A couple of A320s here, a few 727s there. And they would get it done in just a couple of months.


There will be no more Southern after November. SOC will
be finished and it will be all Atlas with those 777s.


Thanks for the update. It's all basically AAWW, but I was trying to be precise. Soon that distinction won't be necessary, it seems.
 
bigb
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:48 am

wjcandee wrote:
bigb wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
As to crewing, I seriously doubt that Amazon will go ACMI with anybody, and that anybody would want to do long-term ACMI for them at scale. Because of the absurd capital investment that an ACMI provider would have to make on spec, and to maximize its flexibility, Amazon takes the capital risk on these ventures by buying or long-term-dry-leasing the airframe. Amazon then does a CMI contract, terminable at will but for a short term (say 3-5 years) with an operator. That incentivizes the operator to do the work reliably, and contractors now know from experience that Amazon rewards service quality and is not just looking for the lowest price.

ATSG at the moment is handling the growth well at its two cargo carriers. Where things go in the future, we will see. Atlas will certainly be pushing Southern as a potential operator of 777s, although ATSG would certainly be able to crew them.

As to crewing the A330s, it's all doable. Just a matter of proving that one can do it. Ryan International used to be a master at crewing onesie-twosies of aircraft types, bringing them on their certificate and operating them as Part 121 aircraft. A couple of A320s here, a few 727s there. And they would get it done in just a couple of months.


There will be no more Southern after November. SOC will
be finished and it will be all Atlas with those 777s.


Thanks for the update. I guess I could have said AAWW. But right now it's Southern, not Atlas, that flies 777s, no?


Yes until November 17th then there will no be no more southern and both pilot groups wi be merged.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:41 am

What are the 'efficient' ranges for these freighters:
B738 A320 p2f
B757 A321 p2f
B744F A332F
B748F A333 p2f
B767 PtF A350F
B767F
B77w ERSF MD-11F
B77F

For example, the 767-300ER flies a lot of SEA to Asia for 10+ hours and it is well within the payload range curve, but well off the max payload level, where freighters like to be. ANC came to be as it was a great fuel stop for the earlier freighters, 742 conversions and the like. The 77F became popular as its 'efficient' range allowed for a lot of direct flights vs the 744F.

Below the 'efficient' range, the 767 freighter is selected, over it it goes to other frames.
 
wjcandee
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:09 am

So just to summarize, there are now three purported conversions: Sequoia, Mammoth and IAI.

The IAI is real and furthest along; they're actually cutting metal and modifying the aircraft after completing the engineering. Then a flight-test program and hopefully a prompt STC.

Sequoia and Mammoth are two companies that arose from the desire of 3 guys to do a 777 conversion. Two of them were management/engineering guys and one a finance guy. The engineering/management guys, according to certain legal papers, didn't want to give the money guy a third of the company, so the money guy walked, and went and got investors and got going with his plan to use Wichita State University to do some of the engineering. That's Sequoia. The other guys, Mammoth, apparently now got some financial backing and are moving forward. Both are making extravagant claims about how fast they're going to be able to do the engineering and metal-cutting and test program, and how great their product is going to be. Sequoia and Mammoth are suing each other, so we'll see how that all plays out.

Meanwhile, IAI, a name-brand player, is demonstrably well-into the process, and is lining up touch-work sites around the world. RIght now, Abu Dhabi (at Etihad Engineering), ICN (at Sharp K Technics) and, of course, IAI's home base at TLV.

The press releases said two lines at ICN and two lines at AUH. The throughput at each location is said to be 6 a/c per year. That's one every 4 months per line, which is consistent with what Lightsabre said above about IAI estimating the work on the initial 777 prototype to take 130 days. And then there is however many lines IAI sets up at TLV.
Last edited by wjcandee on Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:30 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:26 am

For a long time conversions of the 777 hit the rocky shoals of what to do with the floor beams. A company like IAI would be the type that would solve this. However, far less likely that others without decades of conversions would succeed at.

It will be fun to watch IAI doing the flight test program. Would the cargo door be already going thru tests, as well as the new floor beam design?
 
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:42 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
For a long time conversions of the 777 hit the rocky shoals of what to do with the floor beams. A company like IAI would be the type that would solve this. However, far less likely that others without decades of conversions would succeed at.

It will be fun to watch IAI doing the flight test program. Would the cargo door be already going thru tests, as well as the new floor beam design?

The posts earlier in this thread suggested the problem is not "solved" in the sense of getting high cargo density on the main deck. It seems the strategy is more of reinforcing the existing beams a bit and living with a lower cargo density on the main deck, and shifting high density cargo to the lower deck which is already quite strong. It could be I missed something since then, though.

Ref: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1433187#p21730035
 
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:30 pm

wjcandee wrote:
So just to summarize, there are now three purported conversions: Sequoia, Mammoth and IAI.

The IAI is real and furthest along; they're actually cutting metal and modifying the aircraft after completing the engineering. Then a flight-test program and hopefully a prompt STC.

Sequoia and Mammoth are two companies that arose from the desire of 3 guys to do a 777 conversion. Two of them were management/engineering guys and one a finance guy. The engineering/management guys, according to certain legal papers, didn't want to give the money guy a third of the company, so the money guy walked, and went and got investors and got going with his plan to use Wichita State University to do some of the engineering. That's Sequoia. The other guys, Mammoth, apparently now got some financial backing and are moving forward. Both are making extravagant claims about how fast they're going to be able to do the engineering and metal-cutting and test program, and how great their product is going to be. Sequoia and Mammoth are suing each other, so we'll see how that all plays out.

Meanwhile, IAI, a name-brand player, is demonstrably well-into the process, and is lining up touch-work sites around the world. RIght now, Abu Dhabi (at Etihad Engineering), ICN (at Sharp K Technics) and, of course, IAI's home base at TLV.

The press releases said two lines at ICN and two lines at AUH. The throughput at each location is said to be 6 a/c per year. That's one every 4 months per line, which is consistent with what Lightsabre said above about IAI estimating the work on the initial 777 prototype to take 130 days. And then there is however many lines IAI sets up at TLV.

Nice summary. In addition, IAI announced a conversion line in South Korea (I have no idea if this really went forward), for seven 777-ersf conversions per year
https://www.aerotime.aero/27851-iai-to- ... outh-korea

I wouldn't discount more lines cropping up if demand is there (e.g., I am recalling IAI used to do conversions in Mexico via license).

IAI still claims entry into service in 2022:
https://www.iai.co.il/p/777-300ersf

While the other two conversion companies are interesting, I'll take them more seriously after they get a delivered product. Boeing, EFW, IAI (once called Bedek), Precision, ST Aerospace, and PEMCO all have flying conversions, but only the first three with widebodies. I personally believe the 777 conversion market is large enough for multiple companies, it just doesn't seem like a trivial conversion suited for new entrants.
https://cargofacts.com/allposts/convers ... nd-beyond/

Lightsaber
 
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:48 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Nice summary. In addition, IAI announced a conversion line in South Korea (I have no idea if this really went forward), for seven 777-ersf conversions per year
https://www.aerotime.aero/27851-iai-to- ... outh-korea

I wouldn't discount more lines cropping up if demand is there (e.g., I am recalling IAI used to do conversions in Mexico via license).

IAI still claims entry into service in 2022:
https://www.iai.co.il/p/777-300ersf

While the other two conversion companies are interesting, I'll take them more seriously after they get a delivered product. Boeing, EFW, IAI (once called Bedek), Precision, ST Aerospace, and PEMCO all have flying conversions, but only the first three with widebodies. I personally believe the 777 conversion market is large enough for multiple companies, it just doesn't seem like a trivial conversion suited for new entrants.
https://cargofacts.com/allposts/convers ... nd-beyond/

Lightsaber


The second conversion airframe for the IAI program ferried to TLV this week, so I think sometime around new years we'll have seen the prototype fly.

The IAI line in Mexico still exists, it is churning out 767 and 737 conversions. The Ethiopian line will probably start with 767s but it would not be shocking to me at all if either of the 2 or both get a 777 pushed through them if the demand is there. The hard part is that 767 conversion demand is STILL so strong with lines booked out years in advance. BDSF capacity is increasing (as described here) and BCF is also adding another line in China to help get more aircraft through.It really is a sea change compared to how 744Fs were getting parked just a few years ago.
 
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:33 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Nice summary. In addition, IAI announced a conversion line in South Korea (I have no idea if this really went forward), for seven 777-ersf conversions per year
https://www.aerotime.aero/27851-iai-to- ... outh-korea

I wouldn't discount more lines cropping up if demand is there (e.g., I am recalling IAI used to do conversions in Mexico via license).


Thanks for the kind words and additional information! I'm thinking that the South Korea deal you mentioned probably ended up coming to fruition as the Sharp Techniks K deal at ICN (Seoul). Apparently the government was well-involved in the selection and some financial incentives for the project, and there was originally a push to put the lines at a different airport with extant facilities (and, IIRC, a different vendor). So there was a bit of a kerfuffle when the ICN deal was announced. But it seems that it is what it is and the Sharp Techniks K facility is the one that will do the work for IAI in South Korea on the 777.

That little nugget you pointed out about 7, rather than 6, conversions per year is interesting. They were saying 6 per year -300 and 1 per year -200LR. That seems to have been continued in the deal I described, which was 6 per year total, including perhaps some -200LRs. No other line has been announced that talks about the -200. I'm wondering if the mix won't ultimately be determined by demand. And of course the STC for a -200LR conversion would have to follow the one for the -300. It's all very-interesting, and perhaps designed to counter the claims by one of the nascent conversion companies that they're gonna be the only vendor that does the -200LR. Guess not.

As we have discussed, IAI's first real sojourn outside of TLV for the 767-300BDSF touch work was MexicanaMRO in MEX. That deal was announced long before MexicanaMRO actually started doing the work, and IAI spent a lot of time and money doing technology transfer and staff training. Mexicana basically did one-frame-at-a-time when TLV was overloaded, eventually pushing out 5 frames for Kalitta/DHL with deliveries from mid-2017 through the end of 2019.

Then, as Spacepope mentions above, when things started to boom even more after that, IAI started directing multiple DHL and Amazon-owned aircraft there for conversion, and it looked like they were going to try to expand to 2 767s at a time. At the same time, IAI started using MexicanaMRO to do 737 conversions, and a new hangar was built at the MexicanaMRO facility to assist with that. At the end of the day, it seems like throughput there isn't what one would hope, perhaps as a result of Covid. At one point, MEX was doing a 767 conversion from arrival to departure in about 3.6 months, including paint, but the last 767 to exit seems to have been finished almost 8 months ago, while I count at least 4 in line at MEX now. It may be that they are focusing more on 737-800s these days, because I notice that one of the Amazon-owned 767s was moved from MEX to TLV for conversion. In short, the IAI-MexicanaMRO relationship has turned into an "as much work as you can do" situation for MexicanaMRO. I expect that the same ultimately will be the case for the ADD facility, at least until the demand for 767s cools, although ADD may become a primary vendor on the 767 as TLV moves more into the 777.

And I have to say that the deal with Etihad to do touch work on the 777 conversions was genius, for a whole lot of reasons, and probably explains Emirates' decision to sign up with IAI for 777 conversions.

IAI has been sparing about touch-work-facility contracts, because, among other things, the more shops you have doing the work, the much-larger the quality-management demands on IAI. And I am sure that there is significant pressure from the Israel government to do as much work as possible in the home country. But clearly they need bodies and hands at the moment, and they recognize the potential positive benefit to their sales campaigns in having facilities in different regions. With regard to the 777, it seems like IAI is moving aggressively to consolidate their position as the leader.
 
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:45 am

wjcandee wrote:
That little nugget you pointed out about 7, rather than 6, conversions per year is interesting. They were saying 6 per year -300 and 1 per year -200LR. That seems to have been continued in the deal I described, which was 6 per year total, including perhaps some -200LRs. No other line has been announced that talks about the -200. I'm wondering if the mix won't ultimately be determined by demand. And of course the STC for a -200LR conversion would have to follow the one for the -300. It's all very-interesting, and perhaps designed to counter the claims by one of the nascent conversion companies that they're gonna be the only vendor that does the -200LR. Guess not.
...

And I have to say that the deal with Etihad to do touch work on the 777 conversions was genius, for a whole lot of reasons, and probably explains Emirates' decision to sign up with IAI for 777 conversions.

IAI has been sparing about touch-work-facility contracts, because, among other things, the more shops you have doing the work, the much-larger the quality-management demands on IAI.

Good info, I cut back the quoted text to focus on the path forward. With work in Israel, South Korea, AUH, ADD, and possibly Mexico, it looks like IAI

Drawings must be much more "crisp" and procedures shaken down when the responsible engineer is too many timezones away. IAI can do it, but ramping up will be a challenge. The main issue is to get converting fast enough that buyers do not have to look into other options for conversions.

What surprises me is no noise from Boeing. I'm not going to speculate why, but I did expect a conversion on their part eventually. When GE partnered with IAI, it was a signal (pre-Covid19 too) that they were taking steps to preserve engine overhaul revenue and aircraft resale value (for the leasing division) as if Boeing wasn't agressive enough on the timeline.

Lightsaber
 
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:10 am

lightsaber wrote:
Drawings must be much more "crisp" and procedures shaken down when the responsible engineer is too many timezones away. IAI can do it, but ramping up will be a challenge. The main issue is to get converting fast enough that buyers do not have to look into other options for conversions.


Absolutely! That's some good insight. It also seems to follow the experience. MexicanaMRO was a single line for the 767 that sometimes was empty. But it let IAI get the DHL/Kalitta orders done on the timeframe the customer wanted. When all of a sudden multiple DHL and Amazon-owned aircraft showed up in MEX, it seems like things bogged down. I also don't have a lot of visibility into IAI's 737-700/800 conversions, but I know that MEX was to be a significant producer, and yet I'm not seeing a lot of volume in or out on that program. This may reflect Covid issues in Mexico, but it also may reflect exactly what you're talking about. Meanwhile, Boeing has a real winner in the 737-800BCF, and they're pumping them out like hotcakes at multiple (mostly Asian) touch-work facilities. Likewise, we're seeing all kinds of activity by AEI on their 737 conversions, at Commercial Jet in MIA and DHN, and to a lesser extent at their other two longtime conversion contractors.

So it will be interesting how fast IAI is going to be able to get their next distant line up and running at ADD. I think that Ethopian is likely to give them a LOT of help; it's a pride project for that airline's President, and his is a very-flexible and responsive workforce at a very-substantial MRO business. If that goes well, it bodes well for the 777 touch-work sites. If not, we'll have to see.

The Korea 777 site will be interesting. It's really a start-up at that scale, but IAI has had enormous success offshoring production to Korea over many years with regard to building original parts for new IAI aircraft, so the communication lines and in-country presence are already there. That has to help.

I think that the Etihad site will be a little similar to the ADD one, in that Etihad has an established MRO operation at AUH, and the company's leadership wants to prove that they can do this work for their fellow Emirati carrier. So they should be giving IAI a lot of support on anything they need to do the technology transfer.

That said, I think the 777 project, just from the sound of it, seems like a much-more-complex engineering job, and so may be a more-complex job to execute. Of course, you know better than I, but I suspect that great engineering at the front end may make execution more-straightforward when it comes time to execute the job cards. But still, I think this one feels like it's a bigger deal to get right.

Very-exciting, and I hope we can get decent visibility into these operations in places where we perhaps have fewer members in the business and security may be a little-stricter.
 
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Re: B777-300ERSF gains traction

Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:04 am

DL_Mech wrote:
LDRA wrote:
Any new news on 777LR conversion? I thought the LRs don't have composite floor beams so should help with conversion


The 777LR has composite floor beams. The 777F has metal floor beams aft of the cockpit section 41.


Didn’t FX buy a 777LR from DL. The LR’s were barely 10 years old what a shame. I always thought it was a waste to see relatively new aircraft being scrapped because there was no cargo conversion program. I understand the floors were composite. However I always thought with any cargo conversion the floors needed to be changed
 
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Re: B777-300ERSF gains traction

Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:13 am

DL757NYC wrote:
DL_Mech wrote:
LDRA wrote:
Any new news on 777LR conversion? I thought the LRs don't have composite floor beams so should help with conversion


The 777LR has composite floor beams. The 777F has metal floor beams aft of the cockpit section 41.


Didn’t FX buy a 777LR from DL. The LR’s were barely 10 years old what a shame. I always thought it was a waste to see relatively new aircraft being scrapped because there was no cargo conversion program. I understand the floors were composite. However I always thought with any cargo conversion the floors needed to be changed

According to planespotters.net, FX didn't. Instead, all 10 DL B777-200LR were registered with Mammoth Freighters.
 
Cardude2
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:59 pm

wjcandee wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Nice summary. In addition, IAI announced a conversion line in South Korea (I have no idea if this really went forward), for seven 777-ersf conversions per year
https://www.aerotime.aero/27851-iai-to- ... outh-korea

I wouldn't discount more lines cropping up if demand is there (e.g., I am recalling IAI used to do conversions in Mexico via license).


Thanks for the kind words and additional information! I'm thinking that the South Korea deal you mentioned probably ended up coming to fruition as the Sharp Techniks K deal at ICN (Seoul). Apparently the government was well-involved in the selection and some financial incentives for the project, and there was originally a push to put the lines at a different airport with extant facilities (and, IIRC, a different vendor). So there was a bit of a kerfuffle when the ICN deal was announced. But it seems that it is what it is and the Sharp Techniks K facility is the one that will do the work for IAI in South Korea on the 777.

That little nugget you pointed out about 7, rather than 6, conversions per year is interesting. They were saying 6 per year -300 and 1 per year -200LR. That seems to have been continued in the deal I described, which was 6 per year total, including perhaps some -200LRs. No other line has been announced that talks about the -200. I'm wondering if the mix won't ultimately be determined by demand. And of course the STC for a -200LR conversion would have to follow the one for the -300. It's all very-interesting, and perhaps designed to counter the claims by one of the nascent conversion companies that they're gonna be the only vendor that does the -200LR. Guess not.

As we have discussed, IAI's first real sojourn outside of TLV for the 767-300BDSF touch work was MexicanaMRO in MEX. That deal was announced long before MexicanaMRO actually started doing the work, and IAI spent a lot of time and money doing technology transfer and staff training. Mexicana basically did one-frame-at-a-time when TLV was overloaded, eventually pushing out 5 frames for Kalitta/DHL with deliveries from mid-2017 through the end of 2019.

Then, as Spacepope mentions above, when things started to boom even more after that, IAI started directing multiple DHL and Amazon-owned aircraft there for conversion, and it looked like they were going to try to expand to 2 767s at a time. At the same time, IAI started using MexicanaMRO to do 737 conversions, and a new hangar was built at the MexicanaMRO facility to assist with that. At the end of the day, it seems like throughput there isn't what one would hope, perhaps as a result of Covid. At one point, MEX was doing a 767 conversion from arrival to departure in about 3.6 months, including paint, but the last 767 to exit seems to have been finished almost 8 months ago, while I count at least 4 in line at MEX now. It may be that they are focusing more on 737-800s these days, because I notice that one of the Amazon-owned 767s was moved from MEX to TLV for conversion. In short, the IAI-MexicanaMRO relationship has turned into an "as much work as you can do" situation for MexicanaMRO. I expect that the same ultimately will be the case for the ADD facility, at least until the demand for 767s cools, although ADD may become a primary vendor on the 767 as TLV moves more into the 777.

And I have to say that the deal with Etihad to do touch work on the 777 conversions was genius, for a whole lot of reasons, and probably explains Emirates' decision to sign up with IAI for 777 conversions.

IAI has been sparing about touch-work-facility contracts, because, among other things, the more shops you have doing the work, the much-larger the quality-management demands on IAI. And I am sure that there is significant pressure from the Israel government to do as much work as possible in the home country. But clearly they need bodies and hands at the moment, and they recognize the potential positive benefit to their sales campaigns in having facilities in different regions. With regard to the 777, it seems like IAI is moving aggressively to consolidate their position as the leader.


There also is mammoth who bought the entire delta fleet and will convert that.
 
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:06 pm

Cardude2 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Nice summary. In addition, IAI announced a conversion line in South Korea (I have no idea if this really went forward), for seven 777-ersf conversions per year
https://www.aerotime.aero/27851-iai-to- ... outh-korea

I wouldn't discount more lines cropping up if demand is there (e.g., I am recalling IAI used to do conversions in Mexico via license).


Thanks for the kind words and additional information! I'm thinking that the South Korea deal you mentioned probably ended up coming to fruition as the Sharp Techniks K deal at ICN (Seoul). Apparently the government was well-involved in the selection and some financial incentives for the project, and there was originally a push to put the lines at a different airport with extant facilities (and, IIRC, a different vendor). So there was a bit of a kerfuffle when the ICN deal was announced. But it seems that it is what it is and the Sharp Techniks K facility is the one that will do the work for IAI in South Korea on the 777.

That little nugget you pointed out about 7, rather than 6, conversions per year is interesting. They were saying 6 per year -300 and 1 per year -200LR. That seems to have been continued in the deal I described, which was 6 per year total, including perhaps some -200LRs. No other line has been announced that talks about the -200. I'm wondering if the mix won't ultimately be determined by demand. And of course the STC for a -200LR conversion would have to follow the one for the -300. It's all very-interesting, and perhaps designed to counter the claims by one of the nascent conversion companies that they're gonna be the only vendor that does the -200LR. Guess not.

As we have discussed, IAI's first real sojourn outside of TLV for the 767-300BDSF touch work was MexicanaMRO in MEX. That deal was announced long before MexicanaMRO actually started doing the work, and IAI spent a lot of time and money doing technology transfer and staff training. Mexicana basically did one-frame-at-a-time when TLV was overloaded, eventually pushing out 5 frames for Kalitta/DHL with deliveries from mid-2017 through the end of 2019.

Then, as Spacepope mentions above, when things started to boom even more after that, IAI started directing multiple DHL and Amazon-owned aircraft there for conversion, and it looked like they were going to try to expand to 2 767s at a time. At the same time, IAI started using MexicanaMRO to do 737 conversions, and a new hangar was built at the MexicanaMRO facility to assist with that. At the end of the day, it seems like throughput there isn't what one would hope, perhaps as a result of Covid. At one point, MEX was doing a 767 conversion from arrival to departure in about 3.6 months, including paint, but the last 767 to exit seems to have been finished almost 8 months ago, while I count at least 4 in line at MEX now. It may be that they are focusing more on 737-800s these days, because I notice that one of the Amazon-owned 767s was moved from MEX to TLV for conversion. In short, the IAI-MexicanaMRO relationship has turned into an "as much work as you can do" situation for MexicanaMRO. I expect that the same ultimately will be the case for the ADD facility, at least until the demand for 767s cools, although ADD may become a primary vendor on the 767 as TLV moves more into the 777.

And I have to say that the deal with Etihad to do touch work on the 777 conversions was genius, for a whole lot of reasons, and probably explains Emirates' decision to sign up with IAI for 777 conversions.

IAI has been sparing about touch-work-facility contracts, because, among other things, the more shops you have doing the work, the much-larger the quality-management demands on IAI. And I am sure that there is significant pressure from the Israel government to do as much work as possible in the home country. But clearly they need bodies and hands at the moment, and they recognize the potential positive benefit to their sales campaigns in having facilities in different regions. With regard to the 777, it seems like IAI is moving aggressively to consolidate their position as the leader.


There also is mammoth who bought the entire delta fleet and will convert that.


Time will tell.

IAI did a bunch of surgery on an ex-MH 772 https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... sis/r6ownr before scrapping it. They have a to of first hand info to proceed with the conversion and I'm sure their P2F program will succeed. Mammoth on the other hand.... They have an extremely steep learning curve ahead of them and just because they have secured 10 of the least desirable P2F options, doesn't mean they will even get a prototype out the door.
 
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:16 pm

Spacepope wrote:
IAI did a bunch of surgery on an ex-MH 772 https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... sis/r6ownr before scrapping it. They have a to of first hand info to proceed with the conversion and I'm sure their P2F program will succeed. Mammoth on the other hand.... They have an extremely steep learning curve ahead of them and just because they have secured 10 of the least desirable P2F options, doesn't mean they will even get a prototype out the door.


It would seem appropriate to do a pressure test of the new cargo door along with that section of the hull, but why not a full plane if that is cheaper. Was this frame used for that or more basic testing and reverse engineering?

On P2F's is the cargo hold conditioned to the mid 60's and the same altitude as the passenger system kept the cabin or something different. Are all of the PACs kept or is that reduced?
 
dctraynr
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:11 am

Word is that Kalitta has now committed to seven 777-300ERSFs. Any truth to that?
 
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DL757NYC
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:22 pm

Kalitta was on YouTube interesting video about their operation

https://youtu.be/Wqdw6_zJJJI
 
amdiesen
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:23 pm

dctraynr wrote:
Word is that Kalitta has now committed to seven 777-300ERSFs. Any truth to that?


it's a great question. The common knowledge is their commitment is for five. Are you hearing or reading about another +up?

What is uncommon is the dynamics between Kalitta and Atlas. Kalitta has an opportunity, with material risk, in which going 'all in' on the b773ersf could be financially rewarding. My hypothesis is that their initial order tranche should be on the magnitude of ~eight. Respect should be given to the significant risks at play for this independent operator.
factors:
- Kalitta has 10 b744*cfs that are sunsetting into economic retirement
- DHL and Amazon are primary/potential customers for both firms and the ERSF has superior utility for these key customers and competitive economics over the 744*f
- Atlas has increased its 747 commitment by purchasing four 748fs and eight 744*f leases
- oil prices have risen significantly despite reduced commuter and leisure travel

A bold ERSF commitment by Kalitta has the reward potential of earning/outcompeting for revenue at comparatively lower TCO.
 
wjcandee
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:22 am

DL757NYC wrote:
Kalitta was on YouTube interesting video about their operation

https://youtu.be/Wqdw6_zJJJI


It's actually very-interesting, with a machine-shop focus. At one point, Titan said something that I thought was very important. He was talking with one of the Kalitta machinists and asking him if he started out with CMC machines, or whether he had done it old-school originally. The guy said that he started out with manual lathes, and that now he was using Autodesk software to design parts. Titan and the guy basically together made the point that for him, the Autodesk software was a tool that was particularly-useful because he could visualize in his head what he needed to do and the steps to make a part; Autodesk was a supplement and an enhancement that gave life to what he was seeing in his head.

This fit perfectly with what Captain Dave in his famous blog used to say about his Electric Jet (A320-series). BECAUSE he had started out on steam gauges and needle-and-ball navigation, he maintained a mind's-eye view of the three dimensions represented by the information he was getting from the needle-and-ball. He had a mental picture of what the airplane was doing. THEN, when you added all the Whizbang nav stuff, because he had learned the old way, these whizbang things were supplements to his existing mental picture. Wow! An extended centerline! Cool! It's a supplement to something he already understands. If you grow up with the magenta line, your frame of reference is different.

The explanation for why that Kalitta machinist found it so easy to transition to Autodesk (he himself was surprised it was so easy) is that he already understood the context, already had a frame of reference, understood the equipment that was performing the task and the environment in which it occurred. How interesting that a pilot well-versed in earlier forms of navigation experienced the same thing with an FMS and FPDS.
 
bigb
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Re: 777-300ERSF Freighter News and Discussion Thread

Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:18 am

amdiesen wrote:
dctraynr wrote:
Word is that Kalitta has now committed to seven 777-300ERSFs. Any truth to that?


it's a great question. The common knowledge is their commitment is for five. Are you hearing or reading about another +up?

What is uncommon is the dynamics between Kalitta and Atlas. Kalitta has an opportunity, with material risk, in which going 'all in' on the b773ersf could be financially rewarding. My hypothesis is that their initial order tranche should be on the magnitude of ~eight. Respect should be given to the significant risks at play for this independent operator.
factors:
- Kalitta has 10 b744*cfs that are sunsetting into economic retirement
- DHL and Amazon are primary/potential customers for both firms and the ERSF has superior utility for these key customers and competitive economics over the 744*f
- Atlas has increased its 747 commitment by purchasing four 748fs and eight 744*f leases
- oil prices have risen significantly despite reduced commuter and leisure travel

A bold ERSF commitment by Kalitta has the reward potential of earning/outcompeting for revenue at comparatively lower TCO.


Keep in mind that the final domino for Atlas is the Atlas/Southern SOC which will be November 17th. I would be surprised to see more 777s make their way into the fleet once that is completed.
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