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GECAS and IAI to build 777-300ER Cargo Conversion

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:31 pm
by superbizzy73
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-461491/

Looks like they have the floor issue figured out. Who do you think the Prime customers are for this (pun definitely intended)?

IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:34 pm
by A330freak
Israel Aerospace Industries has launched a conversion program for the 777-300er with the aircraft entering service in 2022. This is being supported by GECAS which has an order for 15 conversions with 15 options.

http://www.bigtwinfreighter.com
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-461491/
Image

Re: GECAS and IAI to build 777-300ER Cargo Conversion

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:36 pm
by Antarius
Interesting. FX likely will be interested.

Re: GECAS and IAI to build 777-300ER Cargo Conversion

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:49 pm
by zeke
That spells the death on the 747-8F

I see there is an existing thread for this viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1433187

Re: GECAS and IAI to build 777-300ER Cargo Conversion

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:56 pm
by Rookie87
zeke wrote:
That spells the death on the 747-8F

Hey Zeke,
Would it really? Is the market for oversized (front loaded cargo) on the 747 that small or...you mean no more new orders, just keeping the current fleets at status quo?

Re: GECAS and IAI to build 777-300ER Cargo Conversion

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:01 pm
by SilverwingSpttr
This will be a great option in about 5 years when airlines flying early build 747-400BCFs are ready for something new. I think anyone who doesn't need the front loading capabilities of the 747 would definitely be interested in this, but it all depends on $$$. 747s can be had for very cheap, and GE90-115Bs cannot.

Re: GECAS and IAI to build 777-300ER Cargo Conversion

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:07 pm
by superbizzy73
zeke wrote:
That spells the death on the 747-8F

I see there is an existing thread for this viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1433187


Just noticed that. Mods, delete this one as you see fit.

Btw, I disagree about the 747-8F...short of an Antanov or C-5, there's no other cargo bird that can load long cargo from the nose (among other things it can do). The Old Queen (in -8F form, anyways) still has her niche.

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:09 pm
by alasizon
I seem to be missing something here, how can a 773F carry 20 tons more compared to the 777F at 50% the cost? If that was actually practical, FX & 5X would have gone after the 773s a long time ago.

The -300ERSF’s maximum structural payload of 101.6t and greater volume than the 777F mean it is optimized for the lower cargo densities of the e-commerce and express operators rather than the traditional general freight operators like Cargolux and Nippon Cargo, which operate with densities of around 9-10lb/cb ft (0.11-0.13kg/cb m), says Greener. “But at the cargo density sweet spot of around 7.5-8lb/cu ft, the -300ERSF can carry 20t more than a 777F, at 50% of the cost.”

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:42 pm
by eamondzhang
alasizon wrote:
I seem to be missing something here, how can a 773F carry 20 tons more compared to the 777F at 50% the cost? If that was actually practical, FX & 5X would have gone after the 773s a long time ago.

The -300ERSF’s maximum structural payload of 101.6t and greater volume than the 777F mean it is optimized for the lower cargo densities of the e-commerce and express operators rather than the traditional general freight operators like Cargolux and Nippon Cargo, which operate with densities of around 9-10lb/cb ft (0.11-0.13kg/cb m), says Greener. “But at the cargo density sweet spot of around 7.5-8lb/cu ft, the -300ERSF can carry 20t more than a 777F, at 50% of the cost.”

Indeed, not to factor in weight and balancing and floor strength issues IMHO.

I'll believe it when I see it.

Michael

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:43 pm
by hOMSaR
alasizon wrote:
I seem to be missing something here, how can a 773F carry 20 tons more compared to the 777F at 50% the cost? If that was actually practical, FX & 5X would have gone after the 773s a long time ago.

The -300ERSF’s maximum structural payload of 101.6t and greater volume than the 777F mean it is optimized for the lower cargo densities of the e-commerce and express operators rather than the traditional general freight operators like Cargolux and Nippon Cargo, which operate with densities of around 9-10lb/cb ft (0.11-0.13kg/cb m), says Greener. “But at the cargo density sweet spot of around 7.5-8lb/cu ft, the -300ERSF can carry 20t more than a 777F, at 50% of the cost.”


My guess is they mean 50% of the acquisition cost (buy used and convert) vs a new build.

That’s the only way that makes sense.

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:45 pm
by SierraPacific
How practical would this be as the successor to the 747's at Atlas and Kalitta? The payload capacity between the 744 and 77W can't be that huge.

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:45 pm
by Opaque
alasizon wrote:
I seem to be missing something here, how can a 773F carry 20 tons more compared to the 777F at 50% the cost? If that was actually practical, FX & 5X would have gone after the 773s a long time ago.

The -300ERSF’s maximum structural payload of 101.6t and greater volume than the 777F mean it is optimized for the lower cargo densities of the e-commerce and express operators rather than the traditional general freight operators like Cargolux and Nippon Cargo, which operate with densities of around 9-10lb/cb ft (0.11-0.13kg/cb m), says Greener. “But at the cargo density sweet spot of around 7.5-8lb/cu ft, the -300ERSF can carry 20t more than a 777F, at 50% of the cost.”


I can see how this could work. If the 777F is volume limited to say 60 tons, then the greater useable volume of the 773F could allow it to carry say 80 tons. Neither aircraft is TOW limited in this scenario, but the cost per ton of the additional 20 tons could well be 50% less than the first 60.

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:51 pm
by Antarius
What does this do to the 748F line. I wonder

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:56 pm
by Antarius
alasizon wrote:
I seem to be missing something here, how can a 773F carry 20 tons more compared to the 777F at 50% the cost? If that was actually practical, FX & 5X would have gone after the 773s a long time ago.

The -300ERSF’s maximum structural payload of 101.6t and greater volume than the 777F mean it is optimized for the lower cargo densities of the e-commerce and express operators rather than the traditional general freight operators like Cargolux and Nippon Cargo, which operate with densities of around 9-10lb/cb ft (0.11-0.13kg/cb m), says Greener. “But at the cargo density sweet spot of around 7.5-8lb/cu ft, the -300ERSF can carry 20t more than a 777F, at 50% of the cost.”


Until now the only option was a new build 777F due to the composite floor beams. So 50% likely is second hand plus conversion compared to anew 777F

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:57 pm
by itisi
alasizon wrote:
I seem to be missing something here, how can a 773F carry 20 tons more compared to the 777F at 50% the cost? If that was actually practical, FX & 5X would have gone after the 773s a long time ago.

The -300ERSF’s maximum structural payload of 101.6t and greater volume than the 777F mean it is optimized for the lower cargo densities of the e-commerce and express operators rather than the traditional general freight operators like Cargolux and Nippon Cargo, which operate with densities of around 9-10lb/cb ft (0.11-0.13kg/cb m), says Greener. “But at the cargo density sweet spot of around 7.5-8lb/cu ft, the -300ERSF can carry 20t more than a 777F, at 50% of the cost.”


These are 77W not 773.

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:57 pm
by itisi
Antarius wrote:
What does this do to the 748F line. I wonder


That's basically dead anyway.

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:01 am
by Antarius
itisi wrote:
Antarius wrote:
What does this do to the 748F line. I wonder


That's basically dead anyway.


The pax variant for sure. The F model is close, but still open and churning out some for UPS.

I figured that Boeing was eyeing keeping the line open long enough for the 744F replacement cycle, but could this signal a hastier end?

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:05 am
by superbizzy73
Antarius wrote:
What does this do to the 748F line. I wonder


Just my opinion, but I think the -8F still has its niche. With a main cargo hold 20 ft. wide, a floor space of over 30,000 sq. ft., being able to lift over 300,000 lbs., and having nose-loading capability, the Queen still has her place. Not really anything out there (short of an Antanov or a C-5) that has the capabilities a -8F has.

As a side note (and on with the theme of the post), I can definitely see the likes of Prime Air and Kalitta Air being interested in the -300ERSF conversion.

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:24 am
by lightsaber
Finally! A major freight conversion firm steps forward with a 77W conversion. :hyper:

GECAS is wise, by having a conversion, this puts a floor on 77W vales (but not other 777s) and for GE, extends overhaul demand.

This will slightly reduce demand for the Queen (748F), but probably more of an impact on 777F and possibly A333P2F.

Something has to soak up all the off lease EK 76Ws. :duck:

Hopefully IAI figures out a cheap way to replace floor beams.

Lightsaber

Late Edit. Future use of 779s. ;)
Seriously, is this timed to help sell 779s, or what?

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:37 am
by aemoreira1981
Not surprised that GECAS would sign up to be first, given that the B77W is going to have a hard resale market as a passenger frame. Not too many lessors signed up for direct orders...Bank of China ordered a few, as did Air Lease Corporation and GECAS.

As for range, it won't be that of the B777F, but it could still likely do 4000 nmi.

Re: GECAS and IAI to build 777-300ER Cargo Conversion

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:59 am
by zeke
Rookie87 wrote:
zeke wrote:
That spells the death on the 747-8F

Hey Zeke,
Would it really? Is the market for oversized (front loaded cargo) on the 747 that small or...you mean no more new orders, just keeping the current fleets at status quo?


I think the short answer to that is yes. My guess is the 77W-P2F will actually have more cargo volume than a 747-8F anyway.

It is somewhat of a misnomer to say oversize cargo can only be nose loaded, the height of cargo that can be loaded via the nose is smaller than the main door, Larger pallets are actually loaded via the side door.

What would be more common to be nose loaded would be something like a yacht mast, however loading something that long is not that simple. Most cargo ramps dont have the luxury of lots of space available infront of a bay.

Re: GECAS and IAI to build 777-300ER Cargo Conversion

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:34 am
by speedbird2263
Antarius wrote:
Interesting. FX likely will be interested.


I think so too. Fleet commonality and extra volume.

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:14 am
by kearnet
This quote from the article kinda makes me think the queen isn’t quite out of a job yet, as the floor issue isn’t being brought up to the same same strength of a traditional freighter from reading between the lines. As such I’m not sure if the greater square footage can make enough extra volume, but at a lower density that it'd be beneficial to FX, 5X, etc. I’d be curious to see a chart.

The -300ERSF’s maximum structural payload of 101.6t and greater volume than the 777F mean it is optimised for the lower cargo densities of the e-commerce and express operators rather than the traditional general freight operators like Cargolux and Nippon Cargo, which operate with densities of around 9-10lb/cb ft (0.11-0.13kg/cb m), says Greener. “But at the cargo density sweet spot of around 7.5-8lb/cu ft, the -300ERSF can carry 20t more than a 777F, at 50% of the cost.”

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:26 am
by Spacepope
kearnet wrote:
This quote from the article kinda makes me think the queen isn’t quite out of a job yet, as the floor issue isn’t being brought up to the same same strength of a traditional freighter from reading between the lines. As such I’m not sure if the greater square footage can make enough extra volume, but at a lower density that it'd be beneficial to FX, 5X, etc. I’d be curious to see a chart.

The -300ERSF’s maximum structural payload of 101.6t and greater volume than the 777F mean it is optimised for the lower cargo densities of the e-commerce and express operators rather than the traditional general freight operators like Cargolux and Nippon Cargo, which operate with densities of around 9-10lb/cb ft (0.11-0.13kg/cb m), says Greener. “But at the cargo density sweet spot of around 7.5-8lb/cu ft, the -300ERSF can carry 20t more than a 777F, at 50% of the cost.”

Based on what FX and UPS report, the target density is right in their sweet spot. Their birds tend to bulk out much more often than hitting weight limits.

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:39 am
by JustSomeDood
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Not surprised that GECAS would sign up to be first, given that the B77W is going to have a hard resale market as a passenger frame. Not too many lessors signed up for direct orders...Bank of China ordered a few, as did Air Lease Corporation and GECAS.

As for range, it won't be that of the B777F, but it could still likely do 4000 nmi.


Projected specs say 101.6t max payload with 4500nm range. Assuming this holds up DHL/UPS/FedEx would eat this freighter conversion up.

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:20 am
by OmerMaz
Didn't hear it in any other media channel here in Israel, this is awesome news!
Even though it's a conversion, it looks promising and could at least serve some key TATL cargo routes nonstop.
Also, beacsue IAI will do the conversions, I wonder if LY will consider one for their cargo division.

Re: GECAS and IAI to build 777-300ER Cargo Conversion

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:50 am
by Ronaldo747
zeke wrote:
That spells the death on the 747-8F


Disagree.

If you read the Flightglobal article closely this aircraft is not suitable for the traditional general cargo operators.

But it will be a nice aircraft, I would expect Amazon as main customer as well. I also expect that Fedex and UPS will replace their MD11 fleets with them, but maybe not 1:1.

Re: GECAS and IAI to build 777-300ER Cargo Conversion

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:03 am
by lightsaber
Ronaldo747 wrote:
zeke wrote:
That spells the death on the 747-8F


Disagree.

If you read the Flightglobal article closely this aircraft is not suitable for the traditional general cargo operators.

But it will be a nice aircraft, I would expect Amazon as main customer as well. I also expect that Fedex and UPS will replace their MD11 fleets with them, but maybe not 1:1.

Please look at 748F backlog. For UPS and FedEx, their cargo density is low enough they will probably order no more 747s.

As 16 of the 20 unfilled 748F positions are for UPS, the viability of production goes away. Boeing has only about 20 months before they must start planning the shutdown of the 747 line. Unless there is a final order, this is it for the Queen.

Now, as nose door freighters disappear, the premium for that cargo will rise. But we are a long way from that scenario.

Lightsaber

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:09 am
by Dufo
If anyone has OPT for both 773ER and 747 (-400 or -8), could you please do MTOW out of NBO at 20deg, 0 wind, 1013hpa, packs off, the rest optimum?

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:57 am
by hongkongflyer
Any possibility that the P2F is target to lower cargo densities carrier, I.e. couriers so no cabin floor reinforcement is needed?

Re: GECAS and IAI to build 777-300ER Cargo Conversion

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:05 am
by na
zeke wrote:
That spells the death on the 747-8F

I doubt that, the 748F is a unique airplane with its front door.
If anything, its a major threat for the 777F and might ruin Boeing´s plans for a 777XF.

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:26 am
by 747classic
The shorter factory produced 777F fuselage is already pushed to the limit with the increased MZFW , compared to the far lower passenger MZFW of the 777-200LR.
For the same reason the LOV (cycles) of the 777F (37.500) is far lower than all other 777 variants (60.000).
When P-F modifying the increased length 777-300ER, the fuselage will become even more the limiting factor, because the fuselage has to be strengthend during the P-F conversion a lot more for the planned increase in MZFW.

On top of that and valid for this 777-300ER P-F conversion by IAI : Boeing this week told customers that it may be unable to provide FAA approval for structural repairs on aircraft modified by non-Boeing entities. The position could dramatically limit OEM support for freighter conversion programs developed by the many conversion houses that modify Boeing aircraft.
See : https://cargofacts.com/allposts/equipme ... nversions/

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:41 am
by Revelation
lightsaber wrote:
Finally! A major freight conversion firm steps forward with a 77W conversion. :hyper:

GECAS is wise, by having a conversion, this puts a floor on 77W vales (but not other 777s) and for GE, extends overhaul demand.

This will slightly reduce demand for the Queen (748F), but probably more of an impact on 777F and possibly A333P2F.

Something has to soak up all the off lease EK 76Ws. :duck:

Hopefully IAI figures out a cheap way to replace floor beams.

Lightsaber

Late Edit. Future use of 779s. ;)
Seriously, is this timed to help sell 779s, or what?

Will this product ever consume 134 77W that EK will be retiring?

Or a significant percentage of the 844 77Ws produced?

The initial offering is 15 firm and 15 options.

Enough to do a solid launch, but enough to suggest it will prop up resale value of retiring airliners?

I guess it's nice to have a resale story to tell 777x customers.

Will it fit into gates at FX or UPS hubs?

Is it "too much plane" to replace MD-11s?

Will Boeing be compelled to offer a competing conversion?

lightsaber wrote:
Please look at 748F backlog. For UPS and FedEx, their cargo density is low enough they will probably order no more 747s.

As 16 of the 20 unfilled 748F positions are for UPS, the viability of production goes away. Boeing has only about 20 months before they must start planning the shutdown of the 747 line. Unless there is a final order, this is it for the Queen.

Now, as nose door freighters disappear, the premium for that cargo will rise. But we are a long way from that scenario.

Agree.

UPS has enough 747 capacity in its fleet to deal with any urgent need dof high density or oversized cargo.

773F will be cheaper to acquire and maintain than 748F.

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:01 pm
by Okcflyer
I suspect floor beams are not being changed. Main deck will be density limited. Heavier items will go below deck. If unable to fit, that freight will move on a 77F or 747.

This is clearly targeted to the booming eCommerce market globally.

FYI ... UPS’s air shipments tend to be much denser than Fedex. It’s why they operate 747’s and stop in Alaska regularly where as FX over flies regularly.

Re: GECAS and IAI to build 777-300ER Cargo Conversion

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:00 pm
by zeke
na wrote:
zeke wrote:
That spells the death on the 747-8F

I doubt that, the 748F is a unique airplane with its front door.
If anything, its a major threat for the 777F and might ruin Boeing´s plans for a 777XF.


I don’t agree. Most airfreight is friendly to being loaded on pallets or containers, the majority of airfreight is carried underfloor on passenger aircraft. Anything that is too long to be loaded via the side door is such a small percentage of air cargo the existing fleet of dedicated freighters far exceeds the demand.

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:32 pm
by Faro
What would be the lower OEW for the 773ER cargo converation vs the 773ER?...anyone with an insightful estimate?...

And to max out all that extra volume vs the 777F, operators would have to load lower-density cargo...I suppose this is not a significant restriction...


Faro

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:38 pm
by UA744
How can the 777-300ER be converted to a freighter but the 777-200/200ER cannot? I thought the reason 777s couldn't be converted to freighters was due to their floors not being able to support freight loads. Does the -300ER have a different floor than the -200/200ER? Can the -300 be converted to freighter as well? Or is it just uneconomical to convert a -200/200ER to a freighter but theoretically possible.

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:57 pm
by FriscoHeavy
UA744 wrote:
How can the 777-300ER be converted to a freighter but the 777-200/200ER cannot? I thought the reason 777s couldn't be converted to freighters was due to their floors not being able to support freight loads. Does the -300ER have a different floor than the -200/200ER? Can the -300 be converted to freighter as well? Or is it just uneconomical to convert a -200/200ER to a freighter but theoretically possible.



Please read the multiple other responses to this above. It's not that a 777-200/200ER CAN'T be, but it's impractical given the floor load limitations. As noted above, when your target market has a lower weight density per sq/ft, then it has no issues. This aircraft will be used to move a high volume, not high weight (relative of course).

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:57 pm
by zkojq
How many 747-400s and -200s were converted to freighters? How many were built as freighters?

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:03 pm
by texl1649
There’s been talk about some sort of ‘spray’ being added to the carbon beams, to give them added strength. Is this the route IAI are going?

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:36 pm
by ILNFlyer
Okcflyer wrote:
I suspect floor beams are not being changed. Main deck will be density limited. Heavier items will go below deck. If unable to fit, that freight will move on a 77F or 747.

This is clearly targeted to the booming eCommerce market globally.

FYI ... UPS’s air shipments tend to be much denser than Fedex. It’s why they operate 747’s and stop in Alaska regularly where as FX over flies regularly.


I agree. Operators like Fedex, DHL, and the Amazon Air folks (Atlas and Omni (The only ATSG corporate entity with the 777 certificate)) will go after these as demand increases. The birds for Amazon typically volume out long before reaching maximum weight.

Re: GECAS and IAI to build 777-300ER Cargo Conversion

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:45 pm
by FGITD
zeke wrote:
na wrote:
zeke wrote:
That spells the death on the 747-8F

I doubt that, the 748F is a unique airplane with its front door.
If anything, its a major threat for the 777F and might ruin Boeing´s plans for a 777XF.


I don’t agree. Most airfreight is friendly to being loaded on pallets or containers, the majority of airfreight is carried underfloor on passenger aircraft. Anything that is too long to be loaded via the side door is such a small percentage of air cargo the existing fleet of dedicated freighters far exceeds the demand.



This is what it comes down to. Oversize (Long) nose loaded freight does not make up the bulk of what gets loaded these days.

Even items that you'd think need to be nose loaded, like certain engines, vehicles, etc can usually go in the side doors.

Flying cargo has changed due to the capabilities of regular passenger flights. Most airlines don't need to run combis or freighters all over the place anymore. A few dedicated freighters plus pax belly cargo is enough to serve entire continents now.

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:56 pm
by Spacepope
UA744 wrote:
How can the 777-300ER be converted to a freighter but the 777-200/200ER cannot? I thought the reason 777s couldn't be converted to freighters was due to their floors not being able to support freight loads. Does the -300ER have a different floor than the -200/200ER? Can the -300 be converted to freighter as well? Or is it just uneconomical to convert a -200/200ER to a freighter but theoretically possible.


IAI/bedek used a 772 as a test article for freighter conversion. Lots of research and work was done on it, but it never flew and was eventually scrapped. While it was marketed as a conversion program for many years there were no takers.

It looks like a lot of that work was brought back into this new program.

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:03 pm
by VSMUT
Spacepope wrote:
UA744 wrote:
How can the 777-300ER be converted to a freighter but the 777-200/200ER cannot? I thought the reason 777s couldn't be converted to freighters was due to their floors not being able to support freight loads. Does the -300ER have a different floor than the -200/200ER? Can the -300 be converted to freighter as well? Or is it just uneconomical to convert a -200/200ER to a freighter but theoretically possible.


IAI/bedek used a 772 as a test article for freighter conversion. Lots of research and work was done on it, but it never flew and was eventually scrapped. While it was marketed as a conversion program for many years there were no takers.

It looks like a lot of that work was brought back into this new program.


I wonder if it was the cost of the conversion that deterred customers for the original -200 conversion. If you had the money, you could always get a brand new 777-200F, while if you didn't, an A330P2F was cheaper. Perhaps the 777-300ER converted freighter is just as expensive, but able to sell on the basis that it will soon be the only game in town for large freighters?

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:08 pm
by Dutchy
superbizzy73 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
What does this do to the 748F line. I wonder


Just my opinion, but I think the -8F still has its niche. With a main cargo hold 20 ft. wide, a floor space of over 30,000 sq. ft., being able to lift over 300,000 lbs., and having nose-loading capability, the Queen still has her place. Not really anything out there (short of an Antanov or a C-5) that has the capabilities a -8F has.

As a side note (and on with the theme of the post), I can definitely see the likes of Prime Air and Kalitta Air being interested in the -300ERSF conversion.


I agree it is a niche, the question is, is this marked big enough and profitable enough to justify keeping the manpower and space open for the B748F?

My gut feeling says, it will remain open for another 2 years or so, and then it will close down because of the lag of orders. Few ends of the line orders might be forthcoming and that's it.
There aren't too many B747F that are using the front-loading system and then the price is de decisive factor, too costly. There are tens of B747-8F in the air to take care of this small demand for the next dozen of years.

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:02 pm
by Spacepope
VSMUT wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
UA744 wrote:
How can the 777-300ER be converted to a freighter but the 777-200/200ER cannot? I thought the reason 777s couldn't be converted to freighters was due to their floors not being able to support freight loads. Does the -300ER have a different floor than the -200/200ER? Can the -300 be converted to freighter as well? Or is it just uneconomical to convert a -200/200ER to a freighter but theoretically possible.


IAI/bedek used a 772 as a test article for freighter conversion. Lots of research and work was done on it, but it never flew and was eventually scrapped. While it was marketed as a conversion program for many years there were no takers.

It looks like a lot of that work was brought back into this new program.


I wonder if it was the cost of the conversion that deterred customers for the original -200 conversion. If you had the money, you could always get a brand new 777-200F, while if you didn't, an A330P2F was cheaper. Perhaps the 777-300ER converted freighter is just as expensive, but able to sell on the basis that it will soon be the only game in town for large freighters?


Rumors at the time for conversion including full strengthening of the floor was gonna run close to 100 million bucks, if I recall correctly. It was stupid expensive.

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:08 pm
by airzona11
That GECAS model is a great looking bird.

itisi wrote:
Antarius wrote:
What does this do to the 748F line. I wonder


That's basically dead anyway.


Really? It is still getting orders and making deliveries to operators that keep ordering more. It is the only freighter in its class. This converted 77W is still not what the 748F is and can do.

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:15 pm
by VSMUT
Spacepope wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Spacepope wrote:

IAI/bedek used a 772 as a test article for freighter conversion. Lots of research and work was done on it, but it never flew and was eventually scrapped. While it was marketed as a conversion program for many years there were no takers.

It looks like a lot of that work was brought back into this new program.


I wonder if it was the cost of the conversion that deterred customers for the original -200 conversion. If you had the money, you could always get a brand new 777-200F, while if you didn't, an A330P2F was cheaper. Perhaps the 777-300ER converted freighter is just as expensive, but able to sell on the basis that it will soon be the only game in town for large freighters?


Rumors at the time for conversion including full strengthening of the floor was gonna run close to 100 million bucks, if I recall correctly. It was stupid expensive.


So that probably makes this aircraft something like 120-150 mio. a piece, all included? Expensive, but how much does a new 747-8F go for? 350 mio. or more?

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:34 pm
by KAUSavgeek
Anyone know when the lease on some of these EK 77W's is up? I could see a bulk of those being used for conversions

Re: IAI Launches 777-300ER converted freighters with GECAS

Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:10 pm
by VSMUT
KAUSavgeek wrote:
Anyone know when the lease on some of these EK 77W's is up? I could see a bulk of those being used for conversions


I would expect the Jet Airways aircraft to make up a substantial part of this. Aren't they owned by GECAS as well? Those planes aren't going to find new homes any time soon, require too much work.