Bad Night at JFK

jfklganyc · Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:42 pm

Single runway ops since this afternoon

5.5 hour delays

Several ground stops

30 plus planes in a slow line for takeoff

Few arrivals

31R reopens in November

Alitalia744 · Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:53 pm

Yep. Sitting on DL48. Said at least an hour and a half taxi time.

catiii · Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:09 am

jfklganyc wrote:
Single runway ops since this afternoon

5.5 hour delays

Several ground stops

30 plus planes in a slow line for takeoff

Few arrivals

31R reopens in November

The GDP was initially optimistic because it contemplated multiple runway ops. It went to hell pretty quickly...

N757ST · Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:12 am

I was one of the last arrivals on the 22s today. Gusting to 42 across the runway and within 1 knot of the airframe limit. It was sporty to say the least.

dampfnudel · Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:26 am

Alitalia744 wrote:
Yep. Sitting on DL48. Said at least an hour and a half taxi time.

I can see the position of your 333 on FR24. Have a good flight (once you’re airborne).

leader1 · Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:27 am

Last night was pretty interesting, too - 22L arrivals with 13R (and the occasional 22R) departures in between each one. Not sure I’ve seen that before.

NIKV69 · Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:44 am

Alitalia744 wrote:
Yep. Sitting on DL48. Said at least an hour and a half taxi time.

Yikes!

Skisandy · Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:17 am

Frequency, people want frequency!

Small planes, a departure to each major city every half hour.
Of course, runway problems, weather etc...then add a 3-5 hour delay,
but I am oh so happy that I could choose my exact departure time - though
nothing departs at that time.

It is absurd to have all these small planes, flying coast to coast.
20 years ago we had comfortable DC10's and L1011's. Now we have
737's and A320's. And are sitting on the runway, cramped and miserable.

Airliners.net members are salivating about every new narrow body trans-
Atlantic flight and are praying for the day when an A220 flies
nonstop to South Africa, just add a few fuel tanks.

I never understood the fun of sitting in a 1 1/2 hour queue lined
up for take off.

sonicruiser · Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:22 am

For anybody that sees this thread later, this is what it looked like as of 9:22PM EST Oct 17:

HM7 · Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:26 am

Yeah it’s been a very windy day here in New York

airboss787 · Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:31 am

Skisandy wrote:
Frequency, people want frequency!

Small planes, a departure to each major city every half hour.
Of course, runway problems, weather etc...then add a 3-5 hour delay,
but I am oh so happy that I could choose my exact departure time - though
nothing departs at that time.

It is absurd to have all these small planes, flying coast to coast.
20 years ago we had comfortable DC10's and L1011's. Now we have
737's and A320's. And are sitting on the runway, cramped and miserable.

Airliners.net members are salivating about every new narrow body trans-
Atlantic flight and are praying for the day when an A220 flies
nonstop to South Africa, just add a few fuel tanks.

I never understood the fun of sitting in a 1 1/2 hour queue lined
up for take off.

Wow dude, you have airliners.net quite confused. This site hates transatlantic on narrow body aircraft, unless of course it's a 757. I also don't think anyone thinks it's fun to sit in 90 min queues.
Banning widebody aircraft will only worsen the problem don't you think? There will have to be 2 aircraft doing the same trip which may have usually used just 1. Transatlantic and long flights will be out of question.
DC10s and L1011s are widebodies so I am not sure where you praise them but also want to ban them.

Alitalia744 · Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:35 am

2hrs later DL48 is number 4. Happy travels to all behind us!

sonicruiser · Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:37 am

Man if anyone's listening to JFK tower right now, it's absolute chaos out there. Just heard someone say #50 for takeoff RIP lmao

GalaxyFlyer · Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:41 am

Skisandy wrote:
Frequency, people want frequency!

Small planes, a departure to each major city every half hour.
Of course, runway problems, weather etc...then add a 3-5 hour delay,
but I am oh so happy that I could choose my exact departure time - though
nothing departs at that time.

It is absurd to have all these small planes, flying coast to coast.
20 years ago we had comfortable DC10's and L1011's. Now we have
737's and A320's. And are sitting on the runway, cramped and miserable.

Airliners.net members are salivating about every new narrow body trans-
Atlantic flight and are praying for the day when an A220 flies
nonstop to South Africa, just add a few fuel tanks.

I never understood the fun of sitting in a 1 1/2 hour queue lined
up for take off.

Same weather in the days you remember, you were still waiting for an hour or two. I’ve been number 43 at LGA and certainly had long waits at JFK.

sonicruiser · Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:50 am

Does anybody at JFK right now have a pic of this aircraft queue?

Babyshark · Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:38 am

sonicruiser wrote:
Does anybody at JFK right now have a pic of this aircraft queue?

Try airportviewer.com

Looks like 48 lined up... like the old days

I'm here too. I think that pic above didnt do it justice they're lined up everywhere. They closed arrivals and put everyone in holding to try and clear up the mess.

MSPNWA · Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:28 am

This is painful to listen to. I count at least 40 that are waiting for takeoff and another dozen or so pushed and waiting to join a line.

Grrflyer · Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:44 am

I’m on AF011 been on the runway in queue for a couple hours but just starting to move now ✌️

mcogator · Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:08 am

I remember taxiing out at JFK and falling asleep in my coach seat only to wake up 2 hrs later and realizing we hadn't left yet. That was fun.

MaksFly · Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:21 am

mcogator wrote:
I remember taxiing out at JFK and falling asleep in my coach seat only to wake up 2 hrs later and realizing we hadn't left yet. That was fun.

HAHAHA...

One of the few times I fell asleep on a plane was flying Varig JFK to GRU. Fell asleep... woke up 3 hours later and we were still on the ground.

TransWorldOne · Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:31 am

I'm in the queue now as well. Pushed back over two hours ago. Flight attendants just came through with drinks and snacks. In less than an hour from now we will have to go back to the gate with the option to deplane per DOT regulations. Fun times!

TW870 · Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:32 am

Nights like this are a time warp back to the piston era, when the airlines flew reverse-redeyes. Check out this timetable:

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages ... w59-01.jpg

TWA 91 was a daily nonstop on an L1049G that left IDL at 12:15am arriving LAX at 7:13am. 9 hours 59 minutes non-stop. - if all four engines ran the whole time. Tonight, Delta 454 is a 757 departing 10:19pm arriving 3:01am. 7 hours 42 minutes non-stop. So we've shaved off 2 hours and 17 minutes in sixty years.

Honestly, JFK has the best variety and fantastic plane spotting. But it is absolutely embarrassing operationally.

boston5555 · Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:33 am

Question: what do they do about ultra long haul flights on days/nights like these - e.g. JFK-HKG? Wouldn’t fuel burn be an issue with such long taxi times?

GalaxyFlyer · Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:26 pm

No, it’s planned for. They have pretty good idea what the taxi-out times will be, but sometimes they go back for fuel

CHOWahoo · Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:52 pm

Multiple aircraft asked the tower for permission to turn off their engines and it was typically granted last night.

airboss787 · Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:53 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, it’s planned for. They have pretty good idea what the taxi-out times will be, but sometimes they go back for fuel

And then join the back of the line or do they get to jump to where they were?

GalaxyFlyer · Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:54 pm

Back of the line, it’s tricky guesswork

dtw2hyd · Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:57 pm

Is this situation going to impact tonight's QF Sunrise test flight QF7879?

MIflyer12 · Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:01 pm

Skisandy wrote:
Frequency, people want frequency!

Small planes, a departure to each major city every half hour.
Of course, runway problems, weather etc...then add a 3-5 hour delay,
but I am oh so happy that I could choose my exact departure time - though
nothing departs at that time.

It is absurd to have all these small planes, flying coast to coast.
20 years ago we had comfortable DC10's and L1011's. Now we have
737's and A320's. And are sitting on the runway, cramped and miserable.

Airliners.net members are salivating about every new narrow body trans-
Atlantic flight and are praying for the day when an A220 flies
nonstop to South Africa, just add a few fuel tanks.

I never understood the fun of sitting in a 1 1/2 hour queue lined
up for take off.

Carriers could operate widebodies if they thought that's what people wanted, as in, what people would pay for. Think about what that says about your understanding of the market. Think about your willingness to generalize a bad weather night combined with a scheduled runway closure.

lightsaber · Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:12 pm

N757ST wrote:
I was one of the last arrivals on the 22s today. Gusting to 42 across the runway and within 1 knot of the airframe limit. It was sporty to say the least.

1 knot? That's margin.

Ok, bad jokes aside, that is why down to 1 runway.

JFK needs more capacity. But how?

Lightsaber

Late edit, due not complain about narrowbody aircraft when RJs are clogging up the airport too.

GalaxyFlyer · Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:17 pm

lightsaber wrote:
N757ST wrote:
I was one of the last arrivals on the 22s today. Gusting to 42 across the runway and within 1 knot of the airframe limit. It was sporty to say the least.

1 knot? That's margin.

Ok, bad jokes aside, that is why down to 1 runway.

JFK needs more capacity. But how?

Lightsaber

That reminds of the C-5’s rather complicated crosswind chart the F/E used—it was calibrated as the limiting dry component of 32.5 knots. The eng would take the reported wind, chase thru a couple curves and say, “you’re within (or out) by half a knot”.

maps4ltd · Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:59 pm

For those concerned about fuel burn on the 2+ hour taxis...

Pretty much all widebodies at the back of the line were sitting on the 22s, not even moving toward 13, and had requested to turn off the engines. This sometimes caused delays, as an American 772 to London had to turn 'em back on at short notice to get the conga line moving. This was around 7:30 Eastern.

AWACSooner · Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:04 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
That reminds of the C-5’s rather complicated crosswind chart the F/E used—it was calibrated as the limiting dry component of 32.5 knots. The eng would take the reported wind, chase thru a couple curves and say, “you’re within (or out) by half a knot”.

We do the same thing on my jet...can't tell you how many times we've lined up and we've been off by 1 knot and have to wait for further clearance.

kanye · Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:33 pm

Not using TSAT in USA?
In Europe all planes would wait at the gate and at a certain time start up and pushback in order to keep taxi time to a minimum.

Stickpusher · Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:36 pm

Grrflyer wrote:
I’m on AF011 been on the runway in queue for a couple hours but just starting to move now ✌️

Presumably not an A359. Reliable (cough) sources would have us believe that's close to max endurance.

Stickpusher · Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:44 pm

kanye wrote:
Not using TSAT in USA?
In Europe all planes would wait at the gate and at a certain time start up and pushback in order to keep taxi time to a minimum.

On stand? How does that deal with arrivals? Someone's going to be waiting on an a/c, surely it may as well be one towed off stand awaiting start to allow the rest of the operation to continue? I'm not in the airlines (parents were), so there may be other considerations I'm unaware of.

JohnAudiR18 · Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:04 pm

Good grief.....

flyinghippo · Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:37 pm

airboss787 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, it’s planned for. They have pretty good idea what the taxi-out times will be, but sometimes they go back for fuel

And then join the back of the line or do they get to jump to where they were?

No - all planes that were waiting on 22R and Yankee taxi way had their engines shut off while the tower clear the queue on 22L. Once there were about 10 planes left on 22L, the tower asked all planes on 22R start up their engines.

alggag · Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:46 pm

I was flying home last night and had the option of connecting in New York back when I booked the ticket. So glad that I chose another routing.

WesternDC6B · Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:10 pm

flyinghippo wrote:
airboss787 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, it’s planned for. They have pretty good idea what the taxi-out times will be, but sometimes they go back for fuel

And then join the back of the line or do they get to jump to where they were?

No - all planes that were waiting on 22R and Yankee taxi way had their engines shut off while the tower clear the queue on 22L. Once there were about 10 planes left on 22L, the tower asked all planes on 22R start up their engines.

“Gentlemen, start your engines!”

barney captain · Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:18 pm

TransWorldOne wrote:
I'm in the queue now as well. Pushed back over two hours ago. Flight attendants just came through with drinks and snacks. In less than an hour from now we will have to go back to the gate with the option to deplane per DOT regulations. Fun times!

And start the process all over again.

Thank you government intervention. :roll:

ODwyerPW · Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:21 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
For anybody that sees this thread later, this is what it looked like as of 9:22PM EST Oct 17:

How do you get a view of airport traffic like that? That is amazing.

Delta28L · Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:44 pm

ODwyerPW wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
For anybody that sees this thread later, this is what it looked like as of 9:22PM EST Oct 17:

How do you get a view of airport traffic like that? That is amazing.

Flightradar24 in the hybrid setting with the planes text label showing

FlySSC · Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:47 pm

I was at JFK yesturdau evening Oct.17th... on board AF A380 operating AF007 to CDG.
We left gate 5 at 7:10 Pm (iso the schedule 7:00 Pm which is not too bad...).

We took off at 9:25 Pm...

In 32 years, I´ve never seen such a mess at JFK

JFKIceman · Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:48 pm

ODwyerPW wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
For anybody that sees this thread later, this is what it looked like as of 9:22PM EST Oct 17:

How do you get a view of airport traffic like that? That is amazing.

Flightradar24.com or the app

BerenErchamion · Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:54 pm

airboss787 wrote:
Banning widebody aircraft will only worsen the problem don't you think?

Where did anyone--much less the person you're responding to--suggest such a thing?

phllax · Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:54 pm

It was almost just as bad at 2am PDT as the picture above.

WA707atMSP · Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:27 pm

DL 2198 JFK-LAS was due to leave JFK at 5:29 PM and arrive LAS 8:26 PM. It didn't leave until 10:23 PM, then diverted to MSP, arriving MSP 12:21 AM. It left MSP 12:50 AM, and arrived into LAS at 2:07 AM.

I wonder if the diversion to MSP was because the crew timed out - can anyone at DL verify this?

LAXLHR · Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:59 pm

Babyshark wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
Does anybody at JFK right now have a pic of this aircraft queue?

Try airportviewer.com

Looks like 48 lined up... like the old days

I'm here too. I think that pic above didnt do it justice they're lined up everywhere. They closed arrivals and put everyone in holding to try and clear up the mess.

Haha, I was just thinking that. Back in the 90s when the 6pm transatlantic queue would take up to 45 mins.

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