744
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United Airlines A350 update?

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:10 am

When will United start getting their A350? Are they going to have the new Polaris? My company just had a travel agency book a corporate deal with United on SFO DEL flights in December. I don't know what to expect on their new route? Is it going to be on the new A350 or 787-10? How is the meal service? Is the A350 better or 787-10?
Last edited by qf789 on Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: added question mark to title
 
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CPS001
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:11 am

SFO-DEL will be on the B787-9.
 
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KLMatSJC
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:15 am

744 wrote:
Is it going to be on the new A350 or 787-10?


787-9
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jaybird
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:15 am

I picked Dec 10 as a random date - it's scheduled as a 787-9.
 
alasizon
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:15 am

It'll be neither. SFO-DEL is operated by the 787-9 as the 787-10 doesn't have the range.
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Airlines0613
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:18 am

It should be a Boeing 787-9, which is UA’s only aircraft with the legs. The Boeing 787-10 doesn’t have the range to make it without significant payload restrictions. As for the Airbus A350, it won’t be on the grounds until 2022 and yes, they will be delivered with Polaris.

Currently, the Boeing 787-9 are undergoing interior mods, so Polaris should be installed on all of them by the end of 2020.
 
unitedewr737
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:25 am

Airlines0613 wrote:
It should be a Boeing 787-9, which is UA’s only aircraft with the legs. The Boeing 787-10 doesn’t have the range to make it without significant payload restrictions. As for the Airbus A350, it won’t be on the grounds until 2022 and yes, they will be delivered with Polaris.

Currently, the Boeing 787-9 are undergoing interior mods, so Polaris should be installed on all of them by the end of 2020.


Any chance the a350 might have a slightly updated Polaris? Sort of like Cathay’s A350s vs the 777 300ers? It will have been 6 or 7 years since OG Polaris was introduced. Maybe even a Polaris suite product? Just dishin out some thoughts
 
Motorhussy
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:47 am

And back to the A350: which model did UA settle on in the end, and; when are they scheduled to start arriving?
come visit the south pacific
 
hereandthere41
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:39 am

Motorhussy wrote:
And back to the A350: which model did UA settle on in the end, and; when are they scheduled to start arriving?



45 A350-900s. Starting in 2022.
 
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PA110
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:41 am

hereandthere41 wrote:
45 A350-900s. Starting in 2022.


Is that order still happening? I thought I read somewhere that UA had abandoned plans of moving forward with the A350.
Look, it's been swell, but the swelling's gone down.
 
744
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:25 am

What will UA A350 configuration be like? Is it similar to Delta? Is A350 better or 789?
 
PHLspecial
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:33 am

PA110 wrote:
hereandthere41 wrote:
45 A350-900s. Starting in 2022.


Is that order still happening? I thought I read somewhere that UA had abandoned plans of moving forward with the A350.


I still have a hard time understanding why United would cancel the order. They would like to start replacing the 772 at some point. Unless the 787-10 gets a crazy MTOW boost. Some of the rumored A359 will have a domestic config replacing the domestic 772 routes (read that somewhere on a.net).
 
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:47 am

PHLspecial wrote:
PA110 wrote:
hereandthere41 wrote:
45 A350-900s. Starting in 2022.


Is that order still happening? I thought I read somewhere that UA had abandoned plans of moving forward with the A350.


I still have a hard time understanding why United would cancel the order. They would like to start replacing the 772 at some point. Unless the 787-10 gets a crazy MTOW boost. Some of the rumored A359 will have a domestic config replacing the domestic 772 routes (read that somewhere on a.net).


I can’t see why they wouldn’t use the 781 for 772 domestic replacement, surely better suited for that application.

Good to know that the 77R will be replaced with the A359. Having flown it a few times now, it’s a vast improvement in passenger experience on the venerable 777.
come visit the south pacific
 
smi0006
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:31 am

PHLspecial wrote:
PA110 wrote:
hereandthere41 wrote:
45 A350-900s. Starting in 2022.


Is that order still happening? I thought I read somewhere that UA had abandoned plans of moving forward with the A350.


I still have a hard time understanding why United would cancel the order. They would like to start replacing the 772 at some point. Unless the 787-10 gets a crazy MTOW boost. Some of the rumored A359 will have a domestic config replacing the domestic 772 routes (read that somewhere on a.net).


350 seems like a great 772 fit with a bit more legs. Would they send them down to AU? Could be good to beef up SYD-SFO on low seasons nd high season can remain a 77W.

Perhaps start to upgauge some of their Asian routes out of SFO? Which other hub would suite?
 
gloom
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:54 am

Motorhussy wrote:
I can’t see why they wouldn’t use the 781 for 772 domestic replacement, surely better suited for that application.


781 seems a bit too large as a replacement, considering slowing market, and already ordered 781s. 359 is also better off where they need to adjust for cargo or legs. Where necessary, they'll swap their 781 and routes, I'm sure.

Cheers,
Adam
 
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Veigar
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:07 am

is it cynical thinking to say that I think they are using the A350 order as a leverage for better 787 prices? might be a bit pretentious but the fact that this order has been getting pushed back over and over..
 
Someone83
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:10 am

United's A350-900 delivery schedule according to the Q3 reports

2022 3x
2023 8x
2024 9x
2025 9x
2026 9x
2027 7x
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:08 am

Veigar wrote:
is it cynical thinking to say that I think they are using the A350 order as a leverage for better 787 prices? might be a bit pretentious but the fact that this order has been getting pushed back over and over..


Not at all. I agree with you. There has been zero excitement about the A350 from United. Compared with the fanfare of the 787 and 777-300 orders. I'm sure UA wouldn't have any issue selling them as they are delivered or Boeing taking care of that for them. Boeing did a similar deal where they took A340's and found new buyers in exchange for a 777 order. Or perhaps UA could convert it into an A220 order. They really do need a small narrowbody.
 
mig17
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:36 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Veigar wrote:
is it cynical thinking to say that I think they are using the A350 order as a leverage for better 787 prices? might be a bit pretentious but the fact that this order has been getting pushed back over and over..


Not at all. I agree with you. There has been zero excitement about the A350 from United. Compared with the fanfare of the 787 and 777-300 orders. I'm sure UA wouldn't have any issue selling them as they are delivered or Boeing taking care of that for them. Boeing did a similar deal where they took A340's and found new buyers in exchange for a 777 order. Or perhaps UA could convert it into an A220 order. They really do need a small narrowbody.

It is always possible but quite unlikly concidering how huge the A350 order is now and Boeing has other fish to fries.
With both A350 and 787 maybe all versions, UA is going to have a nice long haul fleet for the 10 to 20 years to come.
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:52 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Not at all. I agree with you. There has been zero excitement about the A350 from United.

By what parameter are you measuring "excitement," to conclude there is zero?

...and also, tell us what other airline you're seeing demonstrate this "excitement," when first delivery is nearly three years away. Ya know, just for a fair comparison. :roll:


TTailedTiger wrote:
Boeing did a similar deal where they took A340's and found new buyers in exchange for a 777 order.

Boeing did that (on any significant scale) once, nearly two decades ago, for a then-fledgling program intended to break norms (ETOP180 over the Pacific) that had not been broken before.

It also took them forever to sell those acquired A340s, seeing as Airbus threatened to not support them.
It took another blue-chip carrier (CX) willing to call Airbus' bluff, after requiring them at cut-throat discounts from Boeing.

...in short: don't expect the likes of that to happen any time soon, by a cash(flow)-strapped Boeing.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:33 am

LAX772LR wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Not at all. I agree with you. There has been zero excitement about the A350 from United.

By what parameter are you measuring "excitement," to conclude there is zero?

...and also, tell us what other airline you're seeing demonstrate this "excitement," when first delivery is nearly three years away. Ya know, just for a fair comparison. :roll:


TTailedTiger wrote:
Boeing did a similar deal where they took A340's and found new buyers in exchange for a 777 order.

Boeing did that (on any significant scale) once, nearly two decades ago, for a then-fledgling program intended to break norms (ETOP180 over the Pacific) that had not been broken before.

It also took them forever to sell those acquired A340s, seeing as Airbus threatened to not support them.
It took another blue-chip carrier (CX) willing to call Airbus' bluff, after requiring them at cut-throat discounts from Boeing.

...in short: don't expect the likes of that to happen any time soon, by a cash(flow)-strapped Boeing.


Boeing and United have an excellent relationship. A big deal was made when the additional 787 orders were placed as well as the 777-300 order. The A350 order was modified twice with barely a mention. I don't have a crystal ball but Delta kept delaying their 787 order and we see what happened with that. Plus a future fleet of 777, 787, and A350 wouldn't be as competitive against the AA future 787/777 fleet and Delta A350/330 fleet. I don't see what the A350 brings that their current fleet can't handle.
They can ways configure lighter and denser seating capacity on the 787 fleet to match demand to routes.

Like I said though, I'd love to see UA place an A220 order. Boeing really has nothing competitive to offer in that size category.
 
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:02 am

PA110 wrote:
hereandthere41 wrote:
45 A350-900s. Starting in 2022.


Is that order still happening? I thought I read somewhere that UA had abandoned plans of moving forward with the A350.

AA cancelled the A350 order they inherited from US airlines. UA converted their order for 35 A350-1000 to 45x A350-900, and will use these as 77E replacement.

gloom wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
I can’t see why they wouldn’t use the 781 for 772 domestic replacement, surely better suited for that application.


781 seems a bit too large as a replacement, considering slowing market, and already ordered 781s. 359 is also better off where they need to adjust for cargo or legs. Where necessary, they'll swap their 781 and routes, I'm sure.

Cheers,
Adam

If you have have 787-10s, it doesn't make sense to use your A350s domestically. The A350 is (somewhat) heavier and less suited to domestic runs. Therefore UA plans to use the A359 as replacement on long haul routes now served by the 777-200ER.
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:24 am

PA110 wrote:
hereandthere41 wrote:
45 A350-900s. Starting in 2022.


Is that order still happening? I thought I read somewhere that UA had abandoned plans of moving forward with the A350.


They haven't cancelled the order. American cancelled their A350 order, which was a LUS order. UA needs a replacement aircraft at some point for a good portion of the 75+ strong 777-200ER fleet and the A350 will probably be that plane.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:10 am

I’d love to see this order partially or fully converted to a 100-150 frame A220 order. UA badly needs more narrowbodies and the A220 would be great in their fleet.

It would be better for UA to go for either more 787’s or possibly the 777x for the 77E replacements.
 
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:32 am

Veigar wrote:
is it cynical thinking to say that I think they are using the A350 order as a leverage for better 787 prices? might be a bit pretentious but the fact that this order has been getting pushed back over and over..


I’d say it’s cynical. Things have changed since the original order was placed (example being the 77W acquisitions) which is why the order has changed several times. It makes no sense to do that only to then cancel the order altogether. I also highly doubt Airbus would have accepted an increased order and not inserted a cancellation clause - losing such a large order will be noticeable in the order book.

It’s also not in United’s interests to be messing an aircraft manufacturer around once an order has been placed with the intention to cancel as it will just make Airbus less likely to offer them a deal in the future. Look at how they’ve not gone after Ryanair for many years after that time when Boeing gave them a load of 737’s for a steal earlier this century.

Also for all the talk about Boeing having a hand in covering the costs of cancelling this order, I suspect this isn’t top of their priorities at the moment.
 
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Revelation
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:45 am

Boeing74741R wrote:
I’d say it’s cynical. Things have changed since the original order was placed (example being the 77W acquisitions) which is why the order has changed several times. It makes no sense to do that only to then cancel the order altogether. I also highly doubt Airbus would have accepted an increased order and not inserted a cancellation clause - losing such a large order will be noticeable in the order book.

It’s also not in United’s interests to be messing an aircraft manufacturer around once an order has been placed with the intention to cancel as it will just make Airbus less likely to offer them a deal in the future. Look at how they’ve not gone after Ryanair for many years after that time when Boeing gave them a load of 737’s for a steal earlier this century.

Also for all the talk about Boeing having a hand in covering the costs of cancelling this order, I suspect this isn’t top of their priorities at the moment.

I'm in the camp of those thinking A350 will be taken by UA, but will point out we don't know the terms of the order so we can't say things like cancellation will be difficult.

We have seen cases where the vendor wants the orders on the books to make the program look healthy (ref: A380) and the customer wants flexibility to either cancel, take or extend again.

Some positive signs of progress towards incorporation are that sims are ordered, then sims are delivered, then pilots are being rostered for training then for flights.

We should see those things happening between now and 2022.
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:47 am

744 wrote:
What will UA A350 configuration be like? Is it similar to Delta? Is A350 better or 789?


United recently has been expanding the size of their Polaris cabins as seen on the 767 used to Europe with 46 Polaris seats. The current UA 787-9 have 48 J class seats. The UA A350 will have a decent sized Polaris cabin if the trend at their other planes is a guide.

Delta has been downsizing their J class seating since they are pushing Premium Economy on their A350 and 777 flights.

Two different paths both successful, as a passenger more Business Class is better than less.
 
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:48 am

frigatebird wrote:
gloom wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
I can’t see why they wouldn’t use the 781 for 772 domestic replacement, surely better suited for that application.


781 seems a bit too large as a replacement, considering slowing market, and already ordered 781s. 359 is also better off where they need to adjust for cargo or legs. Where necessary, they'll swap their 781 and routes, I'm sure.

Cheers,
Adam

If you have have 787-10s, it doesn't make sense to use your A350s domestically. The A350 is (somewhat) heavier and less suited to domestic runs. Therefore UA plans to use the A359 as replacement on long haul routes now served by the 777-200ER.

I suspect it will be newer 77Es displaced from international flying that will replace the older domestic 777s, and after that who knows (the older 787s? some new currently unavailable aircraft? Etc).
 
ewt340
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:53 am

The fact that they converted the -1000 with the smaller -900 means that they are serious about utilizing the aircraft.
 
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:59 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Veigar wrote:
is it cynical thinking to say that I think they are using the A350 order as a leverage for better 787 prices? might be a bit pretentious but the fact that this order has been getting pushed back over and over..


Not at all. I agree with you. There has been zero excitement about the A350 from United. Compared with the fanfare of the 787 and 777-300 orders. I'm sure UA wouldn't have any issue selling them as they are delivered or Boeing taking care of that for them. Boeing did a similar deal where they took A340's and found new buyers in exchange for a 777 order. Or perhaps UA could convert it into an A220 order. They really do need a small narrowbody.


All the 77W excitement was not because of the plane, but because of the cabin it was carrying. And, as someone pointed out, who pumps up an aircraft that's 3 years away? The 789 is smaller than the 77E and downsizing is not a trend we're seeing lately, and the 78J is too short-legged for many of its routes. The 359 is perfectly suited to replace it, and besides if they were not gonna take the order up why up the order number and make the variant switch? And for the record it only got pushed when UA made the switch to the 359.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:23 pm

OA940 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Veigar wrote:
is it cynical thinking to say that I think they are using the A350 order as a leverage for better 787 prices? might be a bit pretentious but the fact that this order has been getting pushed back over and over..


Not at all. I agree with you. There has been zero excitement about the A350 from United. Compared with the fanfare of the 787 and 777-300 orders. I'm sure UA wouldn't have any issue selling them as they are delivered or Boeing taking care of that for them. Boeing did a similar deal where they took A340's and found new buyers in exchange for a 777 order. Or perhaps UA could convert it into an A220 order. They really do need a small narrowbody.


All the 77W excitement was not because of the plane, but because of the cabin it was carrying. And, as someone pointed out, who pumps up an aircraft that's 3 years away? The 789 is smaller than the 77E and downsizing is not a trend we're seeing lately, and the 78J is too short-legged for many of its routes. The 359 is perfectly suited to replace it, and besides if they were not gonna take the order up why up the order number and make the variant switch? And for the record it only got pushed when UA made the switch to the 359.


Lots of 77E's have been replaced by the 787 throughout multiple airline fleets. And did you not hear about Boeing increasing the performance of the 787-10? I'm not sure why discussing fleet possibilities is upsetting you.
Last edited by TTailedTiger on Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
gloom
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:26 pm

frigatebird wrote:
If you have have 787-10s, it doesn't make sense to use your A350s domestically. The A350 is (somewhat) heavier and less suited to domestic runs. Therefore UA plans to use the A359 as replacement on long haul routes now served by the 777-200ER.


Sure thing as a principle. However, A359 might get a share if it makes better use in terms of closing the loop. I could see east-west run coupled with a longer destination, to allow 2 frames to close A-B-C-B-(A) cycle within 48hrs.
Plus, there're always the standard considerations - is the frame capable? Is 781 serving other destination better? Is 359 too capable? etc.

Cheers,
Adam
 
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STT757
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:50 pm

Revelation wrote:
Boeing74741R wrote:
I’d say it’s cynical. Things have changed since the original order was placed (example being the 77W acquisitions) which is why the order has changed several times. It makes no sense to do that only to then cancel the order altogether. I also highly doubt Airbus would have accepted an increased order and not inserted a cancellation clause - losing such a large order will be noticeable in the order book.

It’s also not in United’s interests to be messing an aircraft manufacturer around once an order has been placed with the intention to cancel as it will just make Airbus less likely to offer them a deal in the future. Look at how they’ve not gone after Ryanair for many years after that time when Boeing gave them a load of 737’s for a steal earlier this century.

Also for all the talk about Boeing having a hand in covering the costs of cancelling this order, I suspect this isn’t top of their priorities at the moment.

I'm in the camp of those thinking A350 will be taken by UA, but will point out we don't know the terms of the order so we can't say things like cancellation will be difficult.

We have seen cases where the vendor wants the orders on the books to make the program look healthy (ref: A380) and the customer wants flexibility to either cancel, take or extend again.

Some positive signs of progress towards incorporation are that sims are ordered, then sims are delivered, then pilots are being rostered for training then for flights.

We should see those things happening between now and 2022.


I think I'm in the camp of reducing the A350 order, not canceling. Most of the flying that's UA's current 777-200ER fleet is doing is well within the range of the 787-10. Specifically Trans-Atlantic and Latin America., any of those routes can operate with the 787-10.

It's the trans-Pacific routes that need both the range and the capacity.

Here's my idea:
Reduce A350 order to between 25 and 30.
Order A321XLR to replace the 752s
Order A220s for new 100 seat mainline
Additional 787-10s to replace 77E's operating Trans-Atlantic, Latin America and domestic.



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OA940
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:01 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
OA940 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Not at all. I agree with you. There has been zero excitement about the A350 from United. Compared with the fanfare of the 787 and 777-300 orders. I'm sure UA wouldn't have any issue selling them as they are delivered or Boeing taking care of that for them. Boeing did a similar deal where they took A340's and found new buyers in exchange for a 777 order. Or perhaps UA could convert it into an A220 order. They really do need a small narrowbody.


All the 77W excitement was not because of the plane, but because of the cabin it was carrying. And, as someone pointed out, who pumps up an aircraft that's 3 years away? The 789 is smaller than the 77E and downsizing is not a trend we're seeing lately, and the 78J is too short-legged for many of its routes. The 359 is perfectly suited to replace it, and besides if they were not gonna take the order up why up the order number and make the variant switch? And for the record it only got pushed when UA made the switch to the 359.


Lots of 77E's have been replaced by the 787 throughout multiple airline fleets. And did you not hear about Boeing increasing the performance of the 787-10? I'm not sure why discussing fleet possibilities is upsetting you.


It's not upsetting me. I'm just stating my opinion. If talking about planes on the internet was something that would upset me then there would be a major problem.

Anyway, regarding the -10's performance boost it still isn't a better 77E replacement than the 359, and it still doesn't match the range of the 77E, at least from what I know so far. Also who has replaced their 777s with 787s outside from Asia where the 787-10 is probably the best medium-haul jet (take SQ as an example)?
A350/CSeries = bae
 
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frigatebird
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:01 pm

gloom wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
If you have have 787-10s, it doesn't make sense to use your A350s domestically. The A350 is (somewhat) heavier and less suited to domestic runs. Therefore UA plans to use the A359 as replacement on long haul routes now served by the 777-200ER.


Sure thing as a principle. However, A359 might get a share if it makes better use in terms of closing the loop. I could see east-west run coupled with a longer destination, to allow 2 frames to close A-B-C-B-(A) cycle within 48hrs.
Plus, there're always the standard considerations - is the frame capable? Is 781 serving other destination better? Is 359 too capable? etc.

Cheers,
Adam


Well, yes, it's of course better to have a plane in the air making money rather than sitting useless on the tarmac. Even SQ deployed their A345 on short hops like SIN-CGK in between ULH flights, so UA could so something similar with their A359. But if you can choose between a 787-10 and an A359... ;)
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
flipdewaf
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:07 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
And did you not hear about Boeing increasing the performance of the 787-10?

I have not heard of anything over and above expected PiPs etc. Do you have a link to the information? That could be very important to the market dynamics.

STT757 wrote:
Most of the flying that's UA's current 777-200ER fleet is doing is well within the range of the 787-10
4250nm?

Fred
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frigatebird
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:11 pm

STT757 wrote:
I think I'm in the camp of reducing the A350 order, not canceling. Most of the flying that's UA's current 777-200ER fleet is doing is well within the range of the 787-10. Specifically Trans-Atlantic and Latin America., any of those routes can operate with the 787-10.

It's the trans-Pacific routes that need both the range and the capacity.

Here's my idea:
Reduce A350 order to between 25 and 30.
Order A321XLR to replace the 752s
Order A220s for new 100 seat mainline
Additional 787-10s to replace 77E's operating Trans-Atlantic, Latin America and domestic.


But Airbus and RR will have to agree with such a reduction of the A350 order. They agreed to convert the 35x A350-1000 order back to -900, but only with UA expanding the number of frames to 45. Before this conversion many speculated UA would seek to convert the A350 order to A321neo's, but that wouldn't be favorable for RR nor Airbus. Maybe Airbus would consider a partial conversion to A321XLR's now, to undermine Boeings NMA hopes even further. But there's still RR, gaining nothing without sizable compensation from UA.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
jayunited
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:22 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Boeing and United have an excellent relationship. A big deal was made when the additional 787 orders were placed as well as the 777-300 order. The A350 order was modified twice with barely a mention. I don't have a crystal ball but Delta kept delaying their 787 order and we see what happened with that. Plus a future fleet of 777, 787, and A350 wouldn't be as competitive against the AA future 787/777 fleet and Delta A350/330 fleet. I don't see what the A350 brings that their current fleet can't handle.
They can ways configure lighter and denser seating capacity on the 787 fleet to match demand to routes.

Like I said though, I'd love to see UA place an A220 order. Boeing really has nothing competitive to offer in that size category.


Forget about UA's relationship with Boeing for the moment and lets just look at the seating capacity of a true Polaris 77E, that aircraft has 276 seats. The first 789 goes in for Polaris/PE next month when that aircraft rejoins the fleet the seating capacity should be 257 seats, while our 78Js that already have Polar/PE have 318 seats. I don't see UA reducing the seat count on the 78J or increasing the seat count beyond 257 seats on the 789, this void is where the A359 comes into play. Although it has been a while since any UA executive has spoken publicly about the A359 order last we heard they are coming, if that is still true the A359 will fill the space currently occupied by the 77E.

Keep in mind UA does intend to start retiring some of our oldest 777s starting in 2023. Also starting at some point in 2020 4 PW 77Es which currently fly international routes with our IPTE confirmation will be reconfigured and join the domestic HD fleet. The seating configuration and layout of first class has not yet been disclosed. We don't know if UA will keep the current IPTE layout the current HD fleet has, or refurbish the diamond seats found on the GE 77E and those seat. However, most people at Willis Tower believe the HD domestic fleet will not have the true Polaris seat but there is speculation and rumor that Premium Economy may be coming to the HD fleet. What has been stated by executives is UA wants to make the onboard experience better for the customer, the current layout goes back to the Smisek era. We just have to wait for UA to release more information as these 4 PW 77Es get closer to joining the domestic fleet.

So for those people saying some of the A359 may have a domestic configuration that is not true.

BNAMealer wrote:
I’d love to see this order partially or fully converted to a 100-150 frame A220 order. UA badly needs more narrowbodies and the A220 would be great in their fleet.
It would be better for UA to go for either more 787’s or possibly the 777x for the 77E replacements.


From what I've heard here at Willis Tower for now UA has no plans to order either the 77X or A35J the reason our 77W are years away from retirement. For those of you hoping to see a 77X or A35J order for now you will have to wait for the 77Ws to age.
Last edited by jayunited on Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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United787
Posts: 2879
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:24 pm

Something to consider, if the first planes are arriving in 2022, when does UA have to start preparing for their arrival? What I am getting to is that there will be a point of no return in which pilots and mechanics will have to start training as well as a bunch of other prep work that I can only imagine. It would be an all new fleet and UA has never had an Airbus WB. I assume there would be some commonality with the A320 fleet for pilots but how many of those pilots will have senority to move over to the A350?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 6070
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:27 pm

STT757 wrote:
Here's my idea:
Reduce A350 order to between 25 and 30.
Order A321XLR to replace the 752s
Order A220s for new 100 seat mainline
Additional 787-10s to replace 77E's operating Trans-Atlantic, Latin America and domestic.


That's not a bad idea as there are deep narrowbody needs (not just the 757s, but the old 320s) but UA has shown little interest in a small narrowbody. The exec team just hasn't gotten their heads around accepting mainline staffing costs. IMHO, at 25-30 A350s it's not worth taking 350s at all. 787-9s and -10s can fill the needs, and yes, there's very much been a trend of widebody downsizing... what replaced the 744s?
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 6070
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:32 pm

Someone83 wrote:
United's A350-900 delivery schedule according to the Q3 reports

2022 3x
2023 8x
2024 9x
2025 9x
2026 9x
2027 7x


With due respect to our childhood Mr. Rogers: Can you say fungible? I knew you could.

So the first targeted delivery for a firm order placed in March 2010 is in 2022. https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8811
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:37 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Not at all. I agree with you. There has been zero excitement about the A350 from United.

By what parameter are you measuring "excitement," to conclude there is zero?

...and also, tell us what other airline you're seeing demonstrate this "excitement," when first delivery is nearly three years away. Ya know, just for a fair comparison. :roll:


TTailedTiger wrote:
Boeing did a similar deal where they took A340's and found new buyers in exchange for a 777 order.

Boeing did that (on any significant scale) once, nearly two decades ago, for a then-fledgling program intended to break norms (ETOP180 over the Pacific) that had not been broken before.

It also took them forever to sell those acquired A340s, seeing as Airbus threatened to not support them.
It took another blue-chip carrier (CX) willing to call Airbus' bluff, after requiring them at cut-throat discounts from Boeing.

...in short: don't expect the likes of that to happen any time soon, by a cash(flow)-strapped Boeing.


Boeing and United have an excellent relationship. A big deal was made when the additional 787 orders were placed as well as the 777-300 order. The A350 order was modified twice with barely a mention. I don't have a crystal ball but Delta kept delaying their 787 order and we see what happened with that. Plus a future fleet of 777, 787, and A350 wouldn't be as competitive against the AA future 787/777 fleet and Delta A350/330 fleet. I don't see what the A350 brings that their current fleet can't handle.
They can ways configure lighter and denser seating capacity on the 787 fleet to match demand to routes.

Like I said though, I'd love to see UA place an A220 order. Boeing really has nothing competitive to offer in that size category.


While Delta kept delaying their ordered 787, they did not kept increasing the numbers of said order.

If UA wanted to not take the ordered A350, why did they increase the order in two steps including conversions from 25 to 45 frames.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:41 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
By what parameter are you measuring "excitement," to conclude there is zero?

...and also, tell us what other airline you're seeing demonstrate this "excitement," when first delivery is nearly three years away. Ya know, just for a fair comparison. :roll:



Boeing did that (on any significant scale) once, nearly two decades ago, for a then-fledgling program intended to break norms (ETOP180 over the Pacific) that had not been broken before.

It also took them forever to sell those acquired A340s, seeing as Airbus threatened to not support them.
It took another blue-chip carrier (CX) willing to call Airbus' bluff, after requiring them at cut-throat discounts from Boeing.

...in short: don't expect the likes of that to happen any time soon, by a cash(flow)-strapped Boeing.


Boeing and United have an excellent relationship. A big deal was made when the additional 787 orders were placed as well as the 777-300 order. The A350 order was modified twice with barely a mention. I don't have a crystal ball but Delta kept delaying their 787 order and we see what happened with that. Plus a future fleet of 777, 787, and A350 wouldn't be as competitive against the AA future 787/777 fleet and Delta A350/330 fleet. I don't see what the A350 brings that their current fleet can't handle.
They can ways configure lighter and denser seating capacity on the 787 fleet to match demand to routes.

Like I said though, I'd love to see UA place an A220 order. Boeing really has nothing competitive to offer in that size category.


While Delta kept delaying their ordered 787, they did not kept increasing the numbers of said order.

If UA wanted to not take the ordered A350, why did they increase the order in two steps including conversions from 25 to 45 frames.


That has been discussed before. There may have been conditions imposed to allow UA to push back the order.
 
maverick4002
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:14 pm

Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:48 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Veigar wrote:
is it cynical thinking to say that I think they are using the A350 order as a leverage for better 787 prices? might be a bit pretentious but the fact that this order has been getting pushed back over and over..


Not at all. I agree with you. There has been zero excitement about the A350 from United. Compared with the fanfare of the 787 and 777-300 orders. I'm sure UA wouldn't have any issue selling them as they are delivered or Boeing taking care of that for them. Boeing did a similar deal where they took A340's and found new buyers in exchange for a 777 order. Or perhaps UA could convert it into an A220 order. They really do need a small narrowbody.


Deliverires are three years out. Would excitment be this early?
 
SeoulIncheon
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:52 am

Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:30 pm

OA940 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
OA940 wrote:

All the 77W excitement was not because of the plane, but because of the cabin it was carrying. And, as someone pointed out, who pumps up an aircraft that's 3 years away? The 789 is smaller than the 77E and downsizing is not a trend we're seeing lately, and the 78J is too short-legged for many of its routes. The 359 is perfectly suited to replace it, and besides if they were not gonna take the order up why up the order number and make the variant switch? And for the record it only got pushed when UA made the switch to the 359.


Lots of 77E's have been replaced by the 787 throughout multiple airline fleets. And did you not hear about Boeing increasing the performance of the 787-10? I'm not sure why discussing fleet possibilities is upsetting you.


It's not upsetting me. I'm just stating my opinion. If talking about planes on the internet was something that would upset me then there would be a major problem.

Anyway, regarding the -10's performance boost it still isn't a better 77E replacement than the 359, and it still doesn't match the range of the 77E, at least from what I know so far. Also who has replaced their 777s with 787s outside from Asia where the 787-10 is probably the best medium-haul jet (take SQ as an example)?


Also to add the point - UA also has lots of long-haul trunk routes probably out of 787-10's range that warrants a separate type of aircraft. SYD/MEL SIN DEL HKG ICN PVG PEK. HND-EWR/ORD/IAH. 359 would be a very good aircraft for these routes...(especially for those not going 77W)
 
United1
Posts: 3877
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:31 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
United's A350-900 delivery schedule according to the Q3 reports

2022 3x
2023 8x
2024 9x
2025 9x
2026 9x
2027 7x


With due respect to our childhood Mr. Rogers: Can you say fungible? I knew you could.

So the first targeted delivery for a firm order placed in March 2010 is in 2022. https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html


Not exactly the first targeted delivery date was 2016...about a year after the type received FAA certification. When UA converted the initial order from 25 A359s to 35 A35Js they pushed delivery back to 2018 about a year after the type received FAA certification. Up until this point the A350 was meant to replace UAs 744s...

In steps Boeing with an offer UA could not refuse for late model 77Ws....UA goes hmmmm we have 35 A35J that we really don't have a purpose for but we also can't cancel either (massive penalties are attached to canceling the order.) We do have a giant fleet of 74 772/77Es that we will need to start replacing around 2023. Lets see if Airbus will let us change the order...again.

mais oui, bien sûr says Airbus but under the terms of our agreement you must also order additional frames. Which is how UA ended up with 45 A359s on order for delivery starting in 2022 :)

Could UA and Airbus change the order around again...oh yeah you betcha. Will they? Probably not at that point as UAs 772 fleet is starting to reach the age where UA does need to have a type on order that can replace it.

My money is on the first UA A350 going into service very late in 2022 or early 2023.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
Jetport
Posts: 41
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:39 pm

I just can’t see why United would complicate their fleet with the A350-900. Seems like airlines are incapable of learning the fleet simplicity lesson Southwest has been beating them over the head with for many decades. It has to be cheaper to use a combination of 787-9, 787-10, and 777's to cover this space. The savings of having one less totally different fleet type surely must swamp the efficiency gains on the small percentage of routes the A350-900 works better on than a combination of 787/777's would.

The only Airline case I can think of where more fleet types has not reduced profitability is Delta. But that is only because they got the best pricing ever on all the new/used types they added to their fleets. From what we know, DAL has paid the lowest price anyone ever has on B717, MD90, A330-900 and A220. Unless United is getting the best pricing ever on A350's and lousy pricing on 787/777's getting the A350 doesn’t seem to make sense.
 
dmstorm22
Posts: 561
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:51 pm

United1 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
United's A350-900 delivery schedule according to the Q3 reports

2022 3x
2023 8x
2024 9x
2025 9x
2026 9x
2027 7x


With due respect to our childhood Mr. Rogers: Can you say fungible? I knew you could.

So the first targeted delivery for a firm order placed in March 2010 is in 2022. https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html


Not exactly the first targeted delivery date was 2016...about a year after the type received FAA certification. When UA converted the initial order from 25 A359s to 35 A35Js they pushed delivery back to 2018 about a year after the type received FAA certification. Up until this point the A350 was meant to replace UAs 744s...

In steps Boeing with an offer UA could not refuse for late model 77Ws....UA goes hmmmm we have 35 A35J that we really don't have a purpose for but we also can't cancel either (massive penalties are attached to canceling the order.) We do have a giant fleet of 74 772/77Es that we will need to start replacing around 2023. Lets see if Airbus will let us change the order...again.

mais oui, bien sûr says Airbus but under the terms of our agreement you must also order additional frames. Which is how UA ended up with 45 A359s on order for delivery starting in 2022 :)

Could UA and Airbus change the order around again...oh yeah you betcha. Will they? Probably not at that point as UAs 772 fleet is starting to reach the age where UA does need to have a type on order that can replace it.

My money is on the first UA A350 going into service very late in 2022 or early 2023.


Thank you for laying it out like this.

Every move they made is logical. Was it in the moment thinking? Sure. But every step made sense, and the 45 A359s do replace the 77E fleet really well.
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1389
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:09 pm

Why is it so hard to accept that the A350s are coming to UA? I am looking forward to seeing them. In the new livery they will be stunners.
 
KFTG
Posts: 224
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:11 pm

The A350 is coming. We already have simulators purchased.

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