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SonomaFlyer
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:20 pm

Jetport wrote:
I just can’t see why United would complicate their fleet with the A350-900. Seems like airlines are incapable of learning the fleet simplicity lesson Southwest has been beating them over the head with for many decades. It has to be cheaper to use a combination of 787-9, 787-10, and 777's to cover this space. The savings of having one less totally different fleet type surely must swamp the efficiency gains on the small percentage of routes the A350-900 works better on than a combination of 787/777's would.

The only Airline case I can think of where more fleet types has not reduced profitability is Delta. But that is only because they got the best pricing ever on all the new/used types they added to their fleets. From what we know, DAL has paid the lowest price anyone ever has on B717, MD90, A330-900 and A220. Unless United is getting the best pricing ever on A350's and lousy pricing on 787/777's getting the A350 doesn’t seem to make sense.


Comparing UA to WN is frankly silly. The airlines have two entirely different business models and the last time I checked, WN doesn't fly to Europe, Asia, Australia or South America.

The 359 was designed as a 772ER replacement and is a huge market. The 789 is a great aircraft but is smaller than the 359; smaller passenger and cargo capacities.

People discuss the 359 and 789 as if they are direct/interchangeable competitors, they really are not. UA will utilize them on heavily trafficked routes with a capacity bump and lower trip costs.

DL has a huge number of fleets and is the undisputed profit leader of any airline on the planet. They have old aircraft which they overhaul themselves and they have the latest 359s and 220s; they have no issue with fleet complexity and UA frankly does not either.
 
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scbriml
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:41 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
That has been discussed before. There may have been conditions imposed to allow UA to push back the order.


That’s pure speculation not supported by any evidence.

Bricktop wrote:
Why is it so hard to accept that the A350s are coming to UA? I am looking forward to seeing them. In the new livery they will be stunners.


It seems some simply cannot accept the idea of UA operating the A350. Strange.

KFTG wrote:
The A350 is coming. We already have simulators purchased.


** mic drop **
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CONTACREW
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:22 pm

Anything can happen between now and 2022. I won’t believe we will have any A350s until they are on property and flying sims or not.
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Lufthansa
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:27 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
OA940 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Not at all. I agree with you. There has been zero excitement about the A350 from United. Compared with the fanfare of the 787 and 777-300 orders. I'm sure UA wouldn't have any issue selling them as they are delivered or Boeing taking care of that for them. Boeing did a similar deal where they took A340's and found new buyers in exchange for a 777 order. Or perhaps UA could convert it into an A220 order. They really do need a small narrowbody.


All the 77W excitement was not because of the plane, but because of the cabin it was carrying. And, as someone pointed out, who pumps up an aircraft that's 3 years away? The 789 is smaller than the 77E and downsizing is not a trend we're seeing lately, and the 78J is too short-legged for many of its routes. The 359 is perfectly suited to replace it, and besides if they were not gonna take the order up why up the order number and make the variant switch? And for the record it only got pushed when UA made the switch to the 359.


Lots of 77E's have been replaced by the 787 throughout multiple airline fleets. And did you not hear about Boeing increasing the performance of the 787-10? I'm not sure why discussing fleet possibilities is upsetting you.


Ahhh... where do I begin? The A350 is one of the most efficient and capable aircraft in the world. United is one of the largest airlines in the world
meaning it can easily cope with multiple fleet types. Small airlines need commonality a lot more than big airlines.

Next it's, as has been discussed bigger than the 789. It also has a significantly better wing surface area making it better for hot and high routes. (think middle
east and South Africa or even DEN in summer long haul)
There is no public evidence at all United are not interested in their A350 order. They have simulators on the way (actually they may already be there)
and staff training already happening. Unless you can provide some kind of source this is nothing more than internet trolling.
 
mcsam18
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:50 pm

KFTG wrote:
The A350 is coming. We already have simulators purchased.


So did AA...

https://viewfromthewing.com/american-airlines-a350-simulator-youll-never-guess-whose-pilots-use/
 
Jetport
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:54 pm

SonomaFlyer wrote:
Jetport wrote:
I just can’t see why United would complicate their fleet with the A350-900. Seems like airlines are incapable of learning the fleet simplicity lesson Southwest has been beating them over the head with for many decades. It has to be cheaper to use a combination of 787-9, 787-10, and 777's to cover this space. The savings of having one less totally different fleet type surely must swamp the efficiency gains on the small percentage of routes the A350-900 works better on than a combination of 787/777's would.

The only Airline case I can think of where more fleet types has not reduced profitability is Delta. But that is only because they got the best pricing ever on all the new/used types they added to their fleets. From what we know, DAL has paid the lowest price anyone ever has on B717, MD90, A330-900 and A220. Unless United is getting the best pricing ever on A350's and lousy pricing on 787/777's getting the A350 doesn’t seem to make sense.


Comparing UA to WN is frankly silly. The airlines have two entirely different business models and the last time I checked, WN doesn't fly to Europe, Asia, Australia or South America.

The 359 was designed as a 772ER replacement and is a huge market. The 789 is a great aircraft but is smaller than the 359; smaller passenger and cargo capacities.

People discuss the 359 and 789 as if they are direct/interchangeable competitors, they really are not. UA will utilize them on heavily trafficked routes with a capacity bump and lower trip costs.

DL has a huge number of fleets and is the undisputed profit leader of any airline on the planet. They have old aircraft which they overhaul themselves and they have the latest 359s and 220s; they have no issue with fleet complexity and UA frankly does not either.


You apparently missed my point, the A350 is a great plane, but airlines that have lots of 787's and 777's would be better off not adding another type since the current types can handle the vast majority of the flying. I can't believe the few routes the A350 really is more profitable on is worth the expense and hassle of an entirely new type with zero commonality to anything Untied already has. I love airplanes like everyone else on this site, but why do so many on Airliners.net think every airline should have every aircraft available to cover every possible size/range niche? The fact that UAL has delayed this order twice indicates that they had second thoughts about it in the past. Apparently they plan to go through with it now, but I wonder if they will regret it.

On UA vs LUV: You are right, it is hard to compare Untied to Southwest. Southwest makes twice the profit on half the revenue, which makes them 4 times as profitable as United.

On Delta and Their Motley (Diverse?) Fleet: Thanks for reinforcing my point. Delta is very profitable (recently they have essentially matched Southwest on a % profit basis) because they buy cheap used/orphaned airplanes and get best in the world deals on new airplanes. The only new airplane they apparently paid even close to market price for recently was the A359. They got a good deal on the end of line A321 ceo's and a great/best ever deal on the A330 neo's and A220's.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:08 pm

scbriml wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
That has been discussed before. There may have been conditions imposed to allow UA to push back the order.


That’s pure speculation not supported by any evidence.

Bricktop wrote:
Why is it so hard to accept that the A350s are coming to UA? I am looking forward to seeing them. In the new livery they will be stunners.


It seems some simply cannot accept the idea of UA operating the A350. Strange.

KFTG wrote:
The A350 is coming. We already have simulators purchased.


** mic drop **


No, I can't accept that UA wants to have three future widebody types while AA and DL are consolidating to two widebody types. Please spare me "they need an exact 772 replacement". Well neither UA or DL ordered an exact 744 replacement. Both replaced it with the smaller A350 and 777.

UA could have just as easily delayed the 787 order and taken the A350 instead. But they didn't. And then they also threw in a 773 order. Had UA elected to delay the 787 and take the A350 then some of us would be saying the 787 order was in jeopardy.

AA was already in the process of training their pilots on the A350 when it was canceled. I believe their pilots were the first US pilots to get training on the A350. But things changed.
 
Lufthansa
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:33 pm

[/quote]

No, I can't accept that UA wants to have three future widebody types while AA and DL are consolidating to two widebody types. Please spare me "they need an exact 772 replacement". Well neither UA or DL ordered an exact 744 replacement. Both replaced it with the smaller A350 and 777.

UA could have just as easily delayed the 787 order and taken the A350 instead. But they didn't. And then they also threw in a 773 order. Had UA elected to delay the 787 and take the A350 then some of us would be saying the 787 order was in jeopardy.

AA was already in the process of training their pilots on the A350 when it was canceled. I believe their pilots were the first US pilots to get training on the A350. But things changed.[/quote]

AA was in the middle of a merger. They had new hubs and everything that weren't part of their long term plans and not to mention ended up
the worlds largest A320 operator. Nobody saw that coming. The 77W is so similar to the 772 it was hardly a big investment for UA and at the right
price things stack up as a good 744 replacement. But its still a larger heavier aircraft. There's absolutely no reason why UA can't profitably operate
A359s on select routes.... and ... it even may want to consider some new ones like EWR SYD if QF get's it off the ground. BA, a significantly smaller
airline has no issues having 777, A380, 787, 767, 747 and A350 and still makes a profit... why on earth can't united do the same with a simpler fleet... just
an airbus type part of the mix? If you're so convinced this is impossible, you may wish to explain how much extra CASM this adds to their long haul
operations by adding the A350?
 
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Faro
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:58 pm

KFTG wrote:
The A350 is coming. We already have simulators purchased.



:checkmark: :checkmark:

Multi-million dollar simulator purchases are not made for the heck of it...the A359 is coming...


Faro
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OneSexyL1011
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:09 pm

Here's the situation.

RR isn't letting go of the engine contract. Airbus was willing to work with us.

Management doesn't want this plane. At all. They've essentially said it at Town Halls around the system. Unfortunately, the previous one did (for whatever reason) and now we can't break any iron clad contracts with the manufacturers, specifically RR because of them.

The order wasn't "increased" so to say, it was just restructured. The airplane is staying on the books indefinitely.

So here we are. Highly probable it gets delayed, again within the next 2 years. This plane will become an albatross. Zero commonality with anything and absolute expensive overhead costs. The black sheep of UA.

Thanks Jeff. Thanks.
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:06 pm

OneSexyL1011 wrote:
Here's the situation.

RR isn't letting go of the engine contract. Airbus was willing to work with us.

Management doesn't want this plane. At all. They've essentially said it at Town Halls around the system. Unfortunately, the previous one did (for whatever reason) and now we can't break any iron clad contracts with the manufacturers, specifically RR because of them.

The order wasn't "increased" so to say, it was just restructured. The airplane is staying on the books indefinitely.

So here we are. Highly probable it gets delayed, again within the next 2 years. This plane will become an albatross. Zero commonality with anything and absolute expensive overhead costs. The black sheep of UA.

Thanks Jeff. Thanks.


Thanks Jeff? For an order placed by pmUA in 2009? http://www.nycaviation.com/2009/12/unit ... rders/5548

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... craft.html
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
jayunited
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:31 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
No, I can't accept that UA wants to have three future widebody types while AA and DL are consolidating to two widebody types. Please spare me "they need an exact 772 replacement". Well neither UA or DL ordered an exact 744 replacement. Both replaced it with the smaller A350 and 777.

UA could have just as easily delayed the 787 order and taken the A350 instead. But they didn't. And then they also threw in a 773 order. Had UA elected to delay the 787 and take the A350 then some of us would be saying the 787 order was in jeopardy.

AA was already in the process of training their pilots on the A350 when it was canceled. I believe their pilots were the first US pilots to get training on the A350. But things changed.


You are intermixing a lot of issues here to try and make your point work.

The first A359 wasn't delivered until December 2014, to QR, UA had already had the 788 and 789 in service by then, to delay any 788 or 789 order as you suggest would not have helped UA's position. The original 77W order was placed because UA's 744s could not wait till late 2018 for the A35Js to arrive. When the merged UA coverted and increased s-UA order from 25 A359s to 35 A35Js, UA was going to try to extend the life of the 744s. Under that plan the 744s would start retiring by the end of 2018 but the last 744 would not have left the fleet untill mid 2020. There was no way for Airbus to deliver the the amount of A35Js UA needed in a short period of time. This is where Boeing saw a chance to get their 77W into UA's fleet, Boeing guaranteed UA that could and would deliver those original batch of 77Ws on time and gave UA a great deal when combined with the 789s allowed UA to retire the 744s in about a year. UA then topped of their order and once these final 4 77Ws are delivered UA's 77W fleet will stand at 22 frames.

Just because UA has delayed and change the A350 order several times doesn't mean the A350 will never enter UA's fleet. The A359 is the perfect replacement for our 77Es. The 789s once reconfigured with Polaris/PE will have 257 seats, the 78J's have 318 seats, our 77E with Polaris/PE have 276 seats. UA need an aircraft to bridge the gap between the future 257 seat 789 and the current 318 seater 78J. Before you say UA could just add seats keep in mind UA is maintaining 48 business class seats once the new Polaris seats are installed on the 789s. With such a large business cabin and 21 Premium Economy seats for UA to hit 276 seats on a 789 would mean 30 or 29 inch seat pitch which is torturous and in the intrest of honesty UA's 789s in E- are already torture. There are only 13 additional 789s on order, deliveries resume in January 2020. Instead of comparing UA's fleet to AA, or DL look at UA's fleet only and UA's layout and how UA utilized their 77Es, 789s, 78Js, and 77Ws. If we focus simply on the 789s and 78Js in UA fleet only, it becomes clear that for UA and UA only Boeing has no aircraft to plug the void that the 77Es would leave once UA starts retiring those frames, enter the A359s.
 
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par13del
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:43 pm

Faro wrote:
KFTG wrote:
The A350 is coming. We already have simulators purchased.



:checkmark: :checkmark:

Multi-million dollar simulator purchases are not made for the heck of it...the A359 is coming...


Faro

Now we know why AA had so many financial problems, they spent millions for simulators and then cancelled the order and paid penalties.
UA may well get the A350, but just because they get simulators do not make it a 100% certainty, maybe just a warm fuzzy feeling.
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MSPNWA
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:44 pm

Faro wrote:
Multi-million dollar simulator purchases are not made for the heck of it...the A359 is coming...


It's not uncommon to have simulators for a plane you do not operate. AA is a good example of having an A350 sim. It's an investment that isn't lost if plans change.
 
Rdh3e
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:01 pm

OneSexyL1011 wrote:

So here we are. Highly probable it gets delayed, again within the next 2 years. This plane will become an albatross. Zero commonality with anything and absolute expensive overhead costs. The black sheep of UA.

Thanks Jeff. Thanks.

The 350 was ordered in 2009, prior to Smisek's involvement. It was in itself tied to the indefinite deferral of the A320s that UA didn't take during bankruptcy.
 
Motorhussy
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:01 pm

KFTG wrote:
The A350 is coming. We already have simulators purchased.


I remember reading somewhere, and apologies as I can’t remember which publication, where a UA executive said they’d had concerns with the A350’s RR engine and potential issues like that of the 787. He said that they’d be taking delivery now if those concerns weren’t still valid.

It appears that concerns for the RR powerplant on the big bus are no longer valid so they’ll start replacing their 772/E fleet forthwith.

It’ll be a great asset to United.
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seabosdca
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:11 pm

UA has the largest fleet of older 772s in the world. The 787 is a reasonable replacement for some of the 772 missions, but not all of them; the 787-9 allows no growth on long-haul, while the 787-10 is range-limited. The A350-900 makes perfect sense as a replacement for 77Es on busy routes.

In a perfect world, they'd probably trade 10-15 of the 45 for more 787-10s, but it's not like there's a huge gap between the two, and the history of how the A350 order came to have 45 frames in it is well covered by earlier responses.
 
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Revelation
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:37 pm

Jetport wrote:
On Delta and Their Motley (Diverse?) Fleet: Thanks for reinforcing my point. Delta is very profitable (recently they have essentially matched Southwest on a % profit basis) because they buy cheap used/orphaned airplanes and get best in the world deals on new airplanes. The only new airplane they apparently paid even close to market price for recently was the A359. They got a good deal on the end of line A321 ceo's and a great/best ever deal on the A330 neo's and A220's.

Yet Boeing exercised put options that forced DL to buy 739s they didn't want, maybe not a "best in the world deal" for DL...
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MSPNWA
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:54 pm

Ironically the largest obstacle for the A350 may be the 777s themselves. It's not normal business to invest in a fleet-wide complete interior retrofit and then start retiring the aircraft in 3-4 years. I just don't see UA doing that here.

I stated this before, but if I had to put money down right now, I'd put it on a conversion of the order to A321s. Could be wrong, but that's my best thought on it. We should know more fairly soon with first deliveries about three years away.
 
SonomaFlyer
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:40 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Ironically the largest obstacle for the A350 may be the 777s themselves. It's not normal business to invest in a fleet-wide complete interior retrofit and then start retiring the aircraft in 3-4 years. I just don't see UA doing that here.

I stated this before, but if I had to put money down right now, I'd put it on a conversion of the order to A321s. Could be wrong, but that's my best thought on it. We should know more fairly soon with first deliveries about three years away.


RR has the contract on the 359s and they must be accounted for if there is a step-down to another a/c type. The 777s wouldn't be retired all at once but on a schedule based on considerations such as heavy checks and those interior mods. Will they in the end finish all 777s? Perhaps but if they did, the first few 359s could be straight growth a/c and then begin the replacement of the 777s.

There is absolutely a place for the 359 in the UA fleet and with the delivery schedule, UA will have flexibility to use for growth or replacement depending on the economy and the factors listed above.
 
sxf24
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:22 am

There are some interesting truths in this thread.

United does not want the A350. They’d prefer a 787-focused widebody fleet.

Airbus is willing to convert to A321, something United is interested in, but RR will not play.

At one point there was talk of United putting the TEN on the 787-10. That could have solved one problem, but created another...
 
jayunited
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:28 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Ironically the largest obstacle for the A350 may be the 777s themselves. It's not normal business to invest in a fleet-wide complete interior retrofit and then start retiring the aircraft in 3-4 years. I just don't see UA doing that here.

I stated this before, but if I had to put money down right now, I'd put it on a conversion of the order to A321s. Could be wrong, but that's my best thought on it. We should know more fairly soon with first deliveries about three years away.


You bring up a great point but it is the conundrum UA faces and not just from people here I'm talking about our most loyal customers. I'm sure UA would love to save the money they are spending on the s-UA 77E fleet and invest that money elsewhere. But there is no way UA can leave IPTE on these aircraft. Also if you look at the proposed A359 delivery schedule if UA had not invested in the sUA 77E fleet IPTE would still be in the fleet come 2025 that is not acceptable heck 2-4-2 is not acceptable by todays standards.

The 1995-1996 A model 772 will start being retired in 2022 and replaced by some 77Es which will be converted into a HD layout. But the one think both Munoz and Kirby speak about is UA today is still paying for the mistakes of the past. Not investing in our fleet in the past was a mistake and now UA has to invest in the fleet this includes the interiors even though we will start retiring some of our oldest 777 starting in late 2022. The 4 PW 77Es that will be converted at some point in 2020 are 2001 builds not 1997-2000 built 77Es so this also give us insight into what will probably become the next sub-fleet of HD domestic 77Es and which frames will be retired. I know people keep saying its make no sense but again UA can't just undo the mistakes of the past we have no chioce we have to invest in our fleet and that includes our 1997/98/99/2000 built PW 77Es.
Last edited by jayunited on Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:31 am

Revelation wrote:
Jetport wrote:
On Delta and Their Motley (Diverse?) Fleet: Thanks for reinforcing my point. Delta is very profitable (recently they have essentially matched Southwest on a % profit basis) because they buy cheap used/orphaned airplanes and get best in the world deals on new airplanes. The only new airplane they apparently paid even close to market price for recently was the A359. They got a good deal on the end of line A321 ceo's and a great/best ever deal on the A330 neo's and A220's.

Yet Boeing exercised put options that forced DL to buy 739s they didn't want, maybe not a "best in the world deal" for DL...


OT here, but if you'd like to start another thread with the evidence that DL didn't want the ten 739s from Boeing's put option exercised ~April '17 I'm sure many would love to see it.
 
Motorhussy
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:07 am

sxf24 wrote:
There are some interesting truths in this thread.

United does not want the A350. They’d prefer a 787-focused widebody fleet.

Airbus is willing to convert to A321, something United is interested in, but RR will not play.

At one point there was talk of United putting the TEN on the 787-10. That could have solved one problem, but created another...


I don’t know wha t animal’s entrails you’ve managed to divine these ‘truths’ from but they bare no coherence with what has subjectively been opined here.
come visit the south pacific
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:28 am

jayunited wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
No, I can't accept that UA wants to have three future widebody types while AA and DL are consolidating to two widebody types. Please spare me "they need an exact 772 replacement". Well neither UA or DL ordered an exact 744 replacement. Both replaced it with the smaller A350 and 777.

UA could have just as easily delayed the 787 order and taken the A350 instead. But they didn't. And then they also threw in a 773 order. Had UA elected to delay the 787 and take the A350 then some of us would be saying the 787 order was in jeopardy.

AA was already in the process of training their pilots on the A350 when it was canceled. I believe their pilots were the first US pilots to get training on the A350. But things changed.


You are intermixing a lot of issues here to try and make your point work.

The first A359 wasn't delivered until December 2014, to QR, UA had already had the 788 and 789 in service by then, to delay any 788 or 789 order as you suggest would not have helped UA's position. The original 77W order was placed because UA's 744s could not wait till late 2018 for the A35Js to arrive. When the merged UA coverted and increased s-UA order from 25 A359s to 35 A35Js, UA was going to try to extend the life of the 744s. Under that plan the 744s would start retiring by the end of 2018 but the last 744 would not have left the fleet untill mid 2020. There was no way for Airbus to deliver the the amount of A35Js UA needed in a short period of time. This is where Boeing saw a chance to get their 77W into UA's fleet, Boeing guaranteed UA that could and would deliver those original batch of 77Ws on time and gave UA a great deal when combined with the 789s allowed UA to retire the 744s in about a year. UA then topped of their order and once these final 4 77Ws are delivered UA's 77W fleet will stand at 22 frames.

Just because UA has delayed and change the A350 order several times doesn't mean the A350 will never enter UA's fleet. The A359 is the perfect replacement for our 77Es. The 789s once reconfigured with Polaris/PE will have 257 seats, the 78J's have 318 seats, our 77E with Polaris/PE have 276 seats. UA need an aircraft to bridge the gap between the future 257 seat 789 and the current 318 seater 78J. Before you say UA could just add seats keep in mind UA is maintaining 48 business class seats once the new Polaris seats are installed on the 789s. With such a large business cabin and 21 Premium Economy seats for UA to hit 276 seats on a 789 would mean 30 or 29 inch seat pitch which is torturous and in the intrest of honesty UA's 789s in E- are already torture. There are only 13 additional 789s on order, deliveries resume in January 2020. Instead of comparing UA's fleet to AA, or DL look at UA's fleet only and UA's layout and how UA utilized their 77Es, 789s, 78Js, and 77Ws. If we focus simply on the 789s and 78Js in UA fleet only, it becomes clear that for UA and UA only Boeing has no aircraft to plug the void that the 77Es would leave once UA starts retiring those frames, enter the A359s.


Again, you are too focused on capacity. I challenge you to find one recent example (past 10 years) of airlines replacing aircraft on a 1:1 capacity basis. It hasn't happened. AA replaced the MD-80 with smaller A319 and regional jets. Delta is replacing the MD-88 with the smaller A220. 757's are being replaced with smaller 739 and A321's. 747's have been replaced left and right with 787, 777, and A350. Capacity discipline is the law of the land these days. There is nothing the A350 can do that United's current fleet of 777's and 787's can't already do. You also disregard the ever expanding joint ventures. Routes that may have seen 2X UA may now be be 1X LH A380 and 1X UA 789. You are not including the fluidity of the airline industry in your thinking.

Please don't take this personally. None of us know what will happen. This thread is about the up in the air A350 order at United and we are all entitled to our opinion on what may happen.
 
sxf24
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:03 am

Motorhussy wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
There are some interesting truths in this thread.

United does not want the A350. They’d prefer a 787-focused widebody fleet.

Airbus is willing to convert to A321, something United is interested in, but RR will not play.

At one point there was talk of United putting the TEN on the 787-10. That could have solved one problem, but created another...


I don’t know wha t animal’s entrails you’ve managed to divine these ‘truths’ from but they bare no coherence with what has subjectively been opined here.


I’ve divined these truths from conversations with knowledgeable people at United, Airbus and RR.

What do you think I got wrong?
 
Aceskywalker
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:40 am

No way UA A350s would go a domestic layout like some have proposed here. Those old 777-200 will go to pasture and the ER will assume their roles with a super high density layout.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:36 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
There has been zero excitement about the A350 from United.

By what parameter are you measuring "excitement," to conclude there is zero?

A big deal was made when the additional 787 orders were placed as well as the 777-300 order. The A350 order was modified twice with barely a mention.

So in other words, no parameter rooted in empirical fact. Figures. :roll:


TTailedTiger wrote:
I don't have a crystal ball but Delta kept delaying their 787 order and we see what happened with that.

First, that was merged DL cancelling an sNW order that it felt was too small+heavy for the combined carrier's needs. Boeing (reasonably) refused to upgauge at anywhere near the launch prices that NW received and DL wanted, so the order got converted. Meanwhile, Airbus has a better deal that could be delivered faster-- they got the order.

That said, you *do* realized that UA has increased the number of A350s it's taking, as well as already procured support equipment for those aircraft, do you not?



TTailedTiger wrote:
Plus a future fleet of 777, 787, and A350 wouldn't be as competitive against the AA future 787/777 fleet and Delta A350/330 fleet.

Another laughably baseless statement.... where do you get this stuff?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Motorhussy
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:53 am

sxf24 wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
There are some interesting truths in this thread.

United does not want the A350. They’d prefer a 787-focused widebody fleet.

Airbus is willing to convert to A321, something United is interested in, but RR will not play.

At one point there was talk of United putting the TEN on the 787-10. That could have solved one problem, but created another...


I don’t know wha t animal’s entrails you’ve managed to divine these ‘truths’ from but they bare no coherence with what has subjectively been opined here.


I’ve divined these truths from conversations with knowledgeable people at United, Airbus and RR.

What do you think I got wrong?


So you weren’t talking about this thread then. You answered your own question. And you haven’t presented any legitimacy either.
come visit the south pacific
 
Eyad89
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:43 pm

sxf24 wrote:

I’ve divined these truths from conversations with knowledgeable people at United, Airbus and RR.

What do you think I got wrong?


You got some United guys saying A359s would replace their again 772, and you got other folks saying their executives are going around in town halls saying they don't like the order, and they are stuck with it from a previous management decision (which is a strange thing to say in a town hall IMO, anyhow).

Even in the case of the second statement, it doesn't mean it will necessarily get cancelled. If Airbus or RR wouldn't want to delay or convert the order 2.5 years before delivery, then it might be a better financial decision if UA eventually takes the order. cancelling this close to delivery for such a huge order can't be cheap . The ultimate goal is to maximize profit, not simply fleets. If simplifying fleets maximizes profit (which is true most of the time), then that would be the way to go. UA guys must be plugging some numbers to compare the benefits of simplifying the fleet vs paying huge cancellation penalties.

At this moment, DL operates 5 types of different single aisle planes while keeping their costs very optimized. Big airlines can make this work if they have the numbers.

Even if UA decides to cancel the A359 order, then they must be ordering a replacement for their aging 772s pretty soon. We will see.
 
jayunited
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:48 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:

Again, you are too focused on capacity. I challenge you to find one recent example (past 10 years) of airlines replacing aircraft on a 1:1 capacity basis. It hasn't happened. AA replaced the MD-80 with smaller A319 and regional jets. Delta is replacing the MD-88 with the smaller A220. 757's are being replaced with smaller 739 and A321's. 747's have been replaced left and right with 787, 777, and A350. Capacity discipline is the law of the land these days. There is nothing the A350 can do that United's current fleet of 777's and 787's can't already do. You also disregard the ever expanding joint ventures. Routes that may have seen 2X UA may now be be 1X LH A380 and 1X UA 789. You are not including the fluidity of the airline industry in your thinking.

Please don't take this personally. None of us know what will happen. This thread is about the up in the air A350 order at United and we are all entitled to our opinion on what may happen.


Oh trust me I don' take anything posted on a.netters personally its not that serious. I do understand the fluidity of the industry I've been with UA for 23 years I've seen UA downguage routes from the fromer 374 seat 744s to the current 252 seat 789s. I see how UA move our current widebody fleet around to better match capacity to demand depending on the season. I completely understand fluidity but in addition I also understand UA's network and how our network works. You have chosen to compare UA to AA and DL and I respect your decision to do so. However if you look at UA's network and fleet right now UA has the most diverse widebody fleet of the US3. UA's seating chart spectrum starts from our 167seats 76Ls, 214 seat 76Cs, 219 seat 788s, 240 seat 76Ls, 252 seats, 789s, 276 seat 77Es (reconfigured Polaris/PE only), 318 seat 78Js, 350 seats 77Ws, and finally 364 seat 77Gs. UA has built fluidity into their fleet and network depending on the route and necessary capcaity UA has the ability to either add or remove over 100 plus seats from a route. If UA retires the 276 seat 77Es with out filling that void our ability to respond and better match capacity to demand is then deminished and we would then have to rely more heavily on our partners to fill the space the 77E currently occupies. There is no way UA creates a 66 seat gap in our network between the 789s and the 78Js.

Like it or not Boeing does not have a aircraft that fill that gap within UA's network only. Also with multiple hubs in major business locations like SFO and EWR, both Kirby and Munoz have stated UA has to have a larger business class cabin than our US competitiors. It is why the 76Ls seating configuration is being rolled out and its the reason why Kirby stated UA will not reduce the business class cabin on our 789s as they are recongifured with Polaris/PE and why there was no reduction as the 77Es are reconfigured. I am taking in and factoring and all the fluidity of the industy while also looking at UA's network and the only aircraft that works in that space as a replacement for the 77Es is the A359. Just my opinion I guess we will have to wait till 2022 to find out who is correct.
 
ord
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:23 pm

jayunited, you mentioned a few months ago in the United fleet/network thread that you were at a SFO town hall where Kirby said the A350s are coming in 2022 and will replace older 777s. Of course things can always change, but that shows the plan is to take the A350s.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:20 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2010/03/united-signs-firm-order-for-25-a350-xwb-aircraft.html


Some reference tables might help

UA Airbus orders
10 Mar 2010: Originally ordered 25 A350-900s for 2016 EIS.
20 Jun 2013: Order converted to 35 -1000s
06 Sep 2017: Order was converted to 45 A350-900s .

UA Dreamliner orders
12 787-8 30. Jun. 2005 - 07. Nov. 2012
38 787-9 06. Jun. 2006 - 25. Sep. 2018
14 787-10 19. Feb. 2010 - 18. Jun. 2013

UA Dreamliner deliveries
12 Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner 6.30 yrs
25 Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner 3.60 yrs (13 orders unfilled)
9 Boeing 787-10 Dreamliner 1.00 yrs (5 orders unfilled)

Delivery Dates

787-8 22. Sep. 2012
787-8 31. Oct. 2012
787-8 21. Nov. 2012
787-8 14. Dec. 2012
787-8 20. Dec. 2012
787-8 27. Dec. 2012 | 20 Jun 2013: Order converted to 35 -1000s
787-8 31. Jul. 2013
787-8 12. Nov. 2013
787-8 27. Jan. 2014
787-8 20. Mar. 2014
787-8 26. Jun. 2014
787-8 16. Dec. 2014

787-9 3. Sep. 2014
787-9 31. Oct. 2014
787-9 17. Feb. 2015
787-9 16. Mar. 2015
787-9 30. Mar. 2015
787-9 26. May. 2015
787-9 27. Jul. 2015
787-9 31. Aug. 2015
787-9 18. Sep. 2015
787-9 24. Sep. 2015
787-9 5. Nov. 2015
787-9 24. Nov. 2015
787-9 30. Nov. 2015
787-9 25. Jan. 2016
787-9 18. Feb. 2016
787-9 23. Feb. 2016
787-9 21. Jun. 2016
787-9 24. Jun. 2016
787-9 5. Jan. 2017
787-9 16. Feb. 2017
787-9 16. Aug. 2017 | 06 Sep 2017: Airbus Order was converted to 45 A350-900s .
787-9 9. Jan. 2018
787-9 17. Jan. 2018
787-9 12. Feb. 2018
787-9 16. Feb. 2018

787-10 5. Nov. 2018
787-10 1. Dec. 2018
787-10 19. Dec. 2018
787-10 31. Jan. 2019
787-10 21. Feb. 2019
787-10 24. Mar. 2019
787-10 29. Mar. 2019
787-10 26. Apr. 2019
787-10 21. May. 2019

Obviously UA had received multiple Dreamliners before converting Airbus orders
 
VSMUT
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:29 pm

Ugh, is it this time of year again? The only thing that is certain with these discussions is that everytime they pop up, United increases it's order by 10...

I really don't get the people who insist that it is a no-go because it increases the number of types. Sooner or later, every aircraft type comes to an end and must be replaced by something new. The 777 is going away, weather people like it or not. Replacing such a massive fleet takes time, and for that period you will need to sustain an extra type. In 20 years they will be in a similar situation when the 787s and A350s need to be replaced.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:48 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Ugh, is it this time of year again? The only thing that is certain with these discussions is that everytime they pop up, United increases it's order by 10...

I really don't get the people who insist that it is a no-go because it increases the number of types. Sooner or later, every aircraft type comes to an end and must be replaced by something new. The 777 is going away, weather people like it or not. Replacing such a massive fleet takes time, and for that period you will need to sustain an extra type. In 20 years they will be in a similar situation when the 787s and A350s need to be replaced.


Except that it is a questionable order. About a year before the 350 was to be on property, UA announced it was re-evaluating the order, and several months later, it affirmed it - but with a larger quantity of the smaller variant, pushed several years out. At that time, credible industry journalists reported that the additional frames came with no deposits and zero cancellation penalties, and that UA sources were indicating that the airline had pondered converting the order to 32X NEO but was running into issues with RR and ultimately asked Airbus for more time. That Airbus asked UA to increase its order -- at no cost or risk to UA -- to avoid having analysts tag the order as questionable... as a condition of its request, isn't inconceivable.

And while you're right that it takes time to renew a large fleet, I'd bet that the longevity of the 777 will depend on its economics vs. the current economic environment, and the acquisition cost of new aircraft; quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if many of the 777ER serve for more than 30 years. Replacing the aging narrowbody and 767 fleet will likely take precedence. And UA has plenty of choices to timely replace the 777; Boeing is trolling for 787 orders to keep the line's current pace, then there's a possible 767 NG or 797, then there's plenty of late-model 773ER coming into the market, then there's the 321LR or 739LR, etc.

The mistake most people are making within this thread is assuming UA will replace the 777 with an aircraft with similar capability. Let's be rational --- most of the 777 were ordered over 25 years ago, when UA intended them to be its long-haul aircraft across the Atlantic and to deep South America, with the 744 serving across the Pacific. 739/321LR or a NG 767 may be a better choice in these markets today vs. the collection of 767 and 777 flying the bulk of the routes, and especially the 359. Don't assume UA needs to replace capacity in markets -- many times smaller aircraft have replaced larger aircraft, despite high LF; sometimes volume is used to make up economic short comings.

Same concept applies to the 777A. The "domestic" 777 came to be because (a) UA had a shortage of domestic capacity and (b) the 777A became expendable as UA took 787. UA ran some numbers and concluded that the current arrangement was in its best interest. But that doesn't mean that these aircraft will necessarily be replaced (current long-haul aircraft could replace the long-haul routes, with domestic aircraft replacing the short-haul routes, for example).
 
FlyHossD
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:46 pm

When did UA purchase (not order, but actually pay for) the A350 sim? Is it installed in the Flight Training Center yet?

I think it was about two years ago, I was told by a director at UA that they hadn't purchased the sim yet and that it was being stored in Canada. Is that still the case?

Please don't misunderstand me - I think UA should go ahead with the A359s - the older 772s will need to be replaced before long.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
jayunited
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:11 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
The mistake most people are making within this thread is assuming UA will replace the 777 with an aircraft with similar capability. Let's be rational --- most of the 777 were ordered over 25 years ago, when UA intended them to be its long-haul aircraft across the Atlantic and to deep South America, with the 744 serving across the Pacific. 739/321LR or a NG 767 may be a better choice in these markets today vs. the collection of 767 and 777 flying the bulk of the routes, and especially the 359. Don't assume UA needs to replace capacity in markets -- many times smaller aircraft have replaced larger aircraft, despite high LF; sometimes volume is used to make up economic short comings.

Same concept applies to the 777A. The "domestic" 777 came to be because (a) UA had a shortage of domestic capacity and (b) the 777A became expendable as UA took 787. UA ran some numbers and concluded that the current arrangement was in its best interest. But that doesn't mean that these aircraft will necessarily be replaced (current long-haul aircraft could replace the long-haul routes, with domestic aircraft replacing the short-haul routes, for example).


Scott Kirby is on the record saying UA will increase capacity by upguaging to larger aircraft. UA has been doing just that, prior to the merger and for most of the Smisek era UA's only 300 plus seat internationally configured aircraft was the 744 with 374 seats and there were 24 frames in the fleet. After the merger the next seating capacity for an international aircraft was s-CO's 77Es at 267 seats. Fast forward to today UA has 18, 350 seat 77Ws which will grow to 22 frames, and we have 9, 318 seat 78Js that fleet type will grow to 14 frames. Then there is the domestic HD fleet for years that fleet stood at 5 frames, it now stands at 19 frames with 364 seats. The capacity was needed and it was part of the reason UA increase the size of the HD fleet. As far as your last statement about, these aircraft will not necessarily be replaced UA is actually growing the HD fleet starting next year by adding 4 PW 77Es to the HD fleet in some type of HD configuration which as of now is still being kept under the radar.

UA has gone from from a total of 29 frames at 300 plus seats pre/post merger, to 46 frames today with 9 more brand new frames to be delivered and 4 existing IPTE PW 77Es will join the ranks, meaning the total number of frames in UA's fleet with over 300 seats will go from a high of 29 pre-merger to 59 post merger. I get it no other US airline has this many aircraft with over 300 seats, I've stated this many times on this thread people have to look at UA's entire network before passing judgement.

I will admit UA so far has resisted replacing our 767s and 757s with 788, A330s, A321s. For aircraft in this category UA really wants an aircraft of similar size/capacity and both the 788 and A330 are larger than the 763s. The A321 is smaller than the 763 but close to the 757 in terms of size. But even in this category UA seem to be looking for an aircraft of similar size/capacity to the 763.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:42 am

jayunited wrote:
Scott Kirby is on the record saying UA will increase capacity by upguaging to larger aircraft. UA has been doing just that, prior to the merger and for most of the Smisek era UA's only 300 plus seat internationally configured aircraft was the 744 with 374 seats and there were 24 frames in the fleet. After the merger the next seating capacity for an international aircraft was s-CO's 77Es at 267 seats. Fast forward to today UA has 18, 350 seat 77Ws which will grow to 22 frames, and we have 9, 318 seat 78Js that fleet type will grow to 14 frames. Then there is the domestic HD fleet for years that fleet stood at 5 frames, it now stands at 19 frames with 364 seats. The capacity was needed and it was part of the reason UA increase the size of the HD fleet. As far as your last statement about, these aircraft will not necessarily be replaced UA is actually growing the HD fleet starting next year by adding 4 PW 77Es to the HD fleet in some type of HD configuration which as of now is still being kept under the radar.

UA has gone from from a total of 29 frames at 300 plus seats pre/post merger, to 46 frames today with 9 more brand new frames to be delivered and 4 existing IPTE PW 77Es will join the ranks, meaning the total number of frames in UA's fleet with over 300 seats will go from a high of 29 pre-merger to 59 post merger. I get it no other US airline has this many aircraft with over 300 seats, I've stated this many times on this thread people have to look at UA's entire network before passing judgement.

I will admit UA so far has resisted replacing our 767s and 757s with 788, A330s, A321s. For aircraft in this category UA really wants an aircraft of similar size/capacity and both the 788 and A330 are larger than the 763s. The A321 is smaller than the 763 but close to the 757 in terms of size. But even in this category UA seem to be looking for an aircraft of similar size/capacity to the 763.


Scott Kirby's comments were targeted primarily toward the domestic network, not long-haul international. The highly seasonal variability in long-haul flying, coupled with the depth of the UA network, reduces the need for high capacity widebodies. As I mentioned earlier, UA/CO ordered most of their 777 more than a couple decades ago; it's probable they're operating routes today that their capacity (too much or too little) isn't ideal for. That UA "needs" to replace them with a similar-sized aircraft, is a fallacy.

I'm not an A vs. B person; I could careless which manufacture UA choose. But I agree that the 359 order is questionable, given that I trust the credible industry journalists who said that UA sources indicated the airline wanted more time to make a decision (and Airbus agreed, under the condition that UA keep a preliminary order on its books, but with no risk for the additional aircraft).
 
ord
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:54 pm

[/quote]I'm not an A vs. B person; I could careless which manufacture UA choose. But I agree that the 359 order is questionable, given that I trust the credible industry journalists who said that UA sources indicated the airline wanted more time to make a decision (and Airbus agreed, under the condition that UA keep a preliminary order on its books, but with no risk for the additional aircraft).[/quote]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't ever recall reading a "credible journalist," or any journalist for that matter, say this. If you could provide a link it would be appreciated.
 
fightforlove
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:10 pm

To the UA A350 naysayers: United have 74 x 772s, most of which are 15-24 years old. If you subtract the 45 x A350s, United have only 22 widebodies on firm order (18 787s + 4 773s), so if UA didn't want the A350s, would they not have already placed another large order for 787/777s?? The 787-9 is sold out until 2024 IIRC, unless UA have some favorable delivery slots, I think they would have placed that order by now.
 
Scarebus34
Posts: 529
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:50 pm

fightforlove wrote:
To the UA A350 naysayers: United have 74 x 772s, most of which are 15-24 years old. If you subtract the 45 x A350s, United have only 22 widebodies on firm order (18 787s + 4 773s), so if UA didn't want the A350s, would they not have already placed another large order for 787/777s?? The 787-9 is sold out until 2024 IIRC, unless UA have some favorable delivery slots, I think they would have placed that order by now.

United does not want the A350s - that is fact. However, they are stuck with the engine contract with Rolls Royce. They have tried to get out out of it or move the engines to another order but so far have been unsuccessful. The 777s are not in immediate need of replacement, the 757/767 is more pressing.
 
VSMUT
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:57 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
United does not want the A350s - that is fact.


No, it is A.net hyperbole.
 
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Acey559
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:22 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
fightforlove wrote:
To the UA A350 naysayers: United have 74 x 772s, most of which are 15-24 years old. If you subtract the 45 x A350s, United have only 22 widebodies on firm order (18 787s + 4 773s), so if UA didn't want the A350s, would they not have already placed another large order for 787/777s?? The 787-9 is sold out until 2024 IIRC, unless UA have some favorable delivery slots, I think they would have placed that order by now.

United does not want the A350s - that is fact. However, they are stuck with the engine contract with Rolls Royce. They have tried to get out out of it or move the engines to another order but so far have been unsuccessful. The 777s are not in immediate need of replacement, the 757/767 is more pressing.


I heard this just the other day. The guy I was flying with had Kirby on his flight recently and Kirby told him point blank he’s trying desperately to dump the 350s but Rolls is playing hardball. If we take them, and that’s a big if, I bet they won’t come until the last possible moment. Everyone that spoke to us in class said that if they show up, it probably wouldn’t be until the end of the next decade. Obviously things can change, but that’s what we were told from multiple sources.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:35 pm

Couldn't UA just sell them off as soon as they take delivery? Delta did that with a bunch of 738 they had on order during bankruptcy.
 
Turnhouse1
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:37 pm

Acey559 wrote:
Scarebus34 wrote:
fightforlove wrote:
To the UA A350 naysayers: United have 74 x 772s, most of which are 15-24 years old. If you subtract the 45 x A350s, United have only 22 widebodies on firm order (18 787s + 4 773s), so if UA didn't want the A350s, would they not have already placed another large order for 787/777s?? The 787-9 is sold out until 2024 IIRC, unless UA have some favorable delivery slots, I think they would have placed that order by now.

United does not want the A350s - that is fact. However, they are stuck with the engine contract with Rolls Royce. They have tried to get out out of it or move the engines to another order but so far have been unsuccessful. The 777s are not in immediate need of replacement, the 757/767 is more pressing.


I heard this just the other day. The guy I was flying with had Kirby on his flight recently and Kirby told him point blank he’s trying desperately to dump the 350s but Rolls is playing hardball. If we take them, and that’s a big if, I bet they won’t come until the last possible moment. Everyone that spoke to us in class said that if they show up, it probably wouldn’t be until the end of the next decade. Obviously things can change, but that’s what we were told from multiple sources.


Well they could presumably order a batch of Trent 1000 powered 787s and RR would be quite happy, though I can understand why they're reluctant until there is a few years of reliable service from them.

TrentXWB powered A350s seem fairly reliable and fuel efficient, 45 isn't a small subfleet. But if they do really want out the deal, the fact they haven't cancelled yet suggests that the penalties to RR are greater than any calculated benefits of 787 v A350. It's an interesting downside of single source engine planes for the airlines.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:55 pm

fightforlove wrote:
To the UA A350 naysayers: United have 74 x 772s, most of which are 15-24 years old. If you subtract the 45 x A350s, United have only 22 widebodies on firm order (18 787s + 4 773s), so if UA didn't want the A350s, would they not have already placed another large order for 787/777s?? The 787-9 is sold out until 2024 IIRC, unless UA have some favorable delivery slots, I think they would have placed that order by now.


UA is in the process of giving all the international 772s a complete interior retrofit. They clearly don't intent to retire them soon. I'd give it a minimum of 5 years, and even with that short interior lifespan there's still plenty of time to have widebodies on order starting around 2025. The lack of an order at this point isn't evidence. And the last I saw, the 787 delivery slots open up considerably in 2022.
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1604
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:03 pm

Acey559 wrote:
Scarebus34 wrote:
fightforlove wrote:
To the UA A350 naysayers: United have 74 x 772s, most of which are 15-24 years old. If you subtract the 45 x A350s, United have only 22 widebodies on firm order (18 787s + 4 773s), so if UA didn't want the A350s, would they not have already placed another large order for 787/777s?? The 787-9 is sold out until 2024 IIRC, unless UA have some favorable delivery slots, I think they would have placed that order by now.

United does not want the A350s - that is fact. However, they are stuck with the engine contract with Rolls Royce. They have tried to get out out of it or move the engines to another order but so far have been unsuccessful. The 777s are not in immediate need of replacement, the 757/767 is more pressing.


I heard this just the other day. The guy I was flying with had Kirby on his flight recently and Kirby told him point blank he’s trying desperately to dump the 350s but Rolls is playing hardball. If we take them, and that’s a big if, I bet they won’t come until the last possible moment. Everyone that spoke to us in class said that if they show up, it probably wouldn’t be until the end of the next decade. Obviously things can change, but that’s what we were told from multiple sources.


Crew rumors. Oh, I don't miss those days. There is absolutely zero chance that Kirby would have told a crewmember anything about an ongoing negotiation. Zero.
Good goes around!
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1814
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:03 am

MSPNWA wrote:
fightforlove wrote:
To the UA A350 naysayers: United have 74 x 772s, most of which are 15-24 years old. If you subtract the 45 x A350s, United have only 22 widebodies on firm order (18 787s + 4 773s), so if UA didn't want the A350s, would they not have already placed another large order for 787/777s?? The 787-9 is sold out until 2024 IIRC, unless UA have some favorable delivery slots, I think they would have placed that order by now.


UA is in the process of giving all the international 772s a complete interior retrofit. They clearly don't intent to retire them soon. I'd give it a minimum of 5 years, and even with that short interior lifespan there's still plenty of time to have widebodies on order starting around 2025. The lack of an order at this point isn't evidence. And the last I saw, the 787 delivery slots open up considerably in 2022.

DL did a similar thing to the 747-400s: refit them only to retire them a few years later. We know exactly why the 747s were retired (Fuel Tank Inerting mandate), but that was known way before DL decided to refit them.
So, there are precedents.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:18 am

WayexTDI wrote:
DL did a similar thing to the 747-400s: refit them only to retire them a few years later. We know exactly why the 747s were retired (Fuel Tank Inerting mandate), but that was known way before DL decided to refit them.
So, there are precedents.

Yes, precedents for a mistake like the DL 747s.

The fact that airlines make mistakes is a mighty weak piece of evidence to say that the UA A350 order is safe.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:31 am

VSMUT wrote:
Scarebus34 wrote:
United does not want the A350s - that is fact.


No, it is A.net hyperbole.


Sorry, but as I explained in my previous postings, there's certainly reason to question the order.

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