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jayunited
Posts: 3028
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:49 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Yes, precedents for a mistake like the DL 747s.
The fact that airlines make mistakes is a mighty weak piece of evidence to say that the UA A350 order is safe.


How about Scott Kirby at a town hall at SFO this past March 2019, telling UA employees the A350s are coming and the first UA 777s that will be retired are the 777-200s (meaning 77A models). Or in the same town hall telling employees that except for the 757s and 767s UA has a good replacement and growth plan in place. For those who were not in the room the highlights of the town hall are online.
Any United Airlines employee or retiree with access to Flying Together all you need to do is sign in to the employee intranet and search Scott Kirby Unplugged SFO, the highlights (video included) of the town hall were posted on Flying Together on April 2, 2019.

For those who are not UA employees there is a disclaimer at the beginning of the video prohibiting me from redistributing the video in any form.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:09 am

jayunited wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
Yes, precedents for a mistake like the DL 747s.
The fact that airlines make mistakes is a mighty weak piece of evidence to say that the UA A350 order is safe.


How about Scott Kirby at a town hall at SFO this past March 2019, telling UA employees the A350s are coming and the first UA 777s that will be retired are the 777-200s (meaning 77A models). Or in the same town hall telling employees that except for the 757s and 767s UA has a good replacement and growth plan in place. For those who were not in the room the highlights of the town hall are online.
Any United Airlines employee or retiree with access to Flying Together all you need to do is sign in to the employee intranet and search Scott Kirby Unplugged SFO, the highlights (video included) of the town hall were posted on Flying Together on April 2, 2019.

For those who are not UA employees there is a disclaimer at the beginning of the video prohibiting me from redistributing the video in any form.


jayunited, did you attend the town hall meeting where Jeff Smisek double-downed on UA's commitment to CLE, discussed how the then-current edition of Hemisphere magazine did a whole feature story on CLE... and then, what seemed like the next day, announced CLE's de-hubbing? According to a.net folklore, Smisek was suppose to announce the de-hubbing of IAD, but had a meeting with the devil in his dreams and shocked the company by announcing HE was closing CLE. Of course, in reality, the de-hubbing of CLE was in the planning stages for a very, very long time.

It's silly to cite these meetings as proof of future events. Discussions at these events discuss status quo, but they're certainly fluid and definitely not binding.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1869
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:29 am

MSPNWA wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
DL did a similar thing to the 747-400s: refit them only to retire them a few years later. We know exactly why the 747s were retired (Fuel Tank Inerting mandate), but that was known way before DL decided to refit them.
So, there are precedents.

Yes, precedents for a mistake like the DL 747s.

The fact that airlines make mistakes is a mighty weak piece of evidence to say that the UA A350 order is safe.

Except your own words were:
They clearly don't intent to retire them soon

So, no, nothing is clear. Things do change, businesses do change their minds.
Even if DL made a mistake in refitting the 747-400s shortly before retiring them (in your own view, but when don't they according to you...), that has no bearing as to what UA does with the 777-200s: if UA decides 2 years after refitting them that it's time they retire, they will be retired.

As of now, given the fact that UA keeps increasing the order for the A350, it would seem very safe to say UA will get the A350 sooner rather than later. But then again, businesses change their mind every so often; so, the future will tell.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2707
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:34 am

You can't compare a high capacity and fuel thirsty quad jet like the 744 to a modern FBW twin like the 777. I don't see UA parking them anytime soon. Especially since they are even decking out the 763 with an ultra premium interior.
 
dmstorm22
Posts: 623
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:50 am

MSPNWA wrote:
fightforlove wrote:
To the UA A350 naysayers: United have 74 x 772s, most of which are 15-24 years old. If you subtract the 45 x A350s, United have only 22 widebodies on firm order (18 787s + 4 773s), so if UA didn't want the A350s, would they not have already placed another large order for 787/777s?? The 787-9 is sold out until 2024 IIRC, unless UA have some favorable delivery slots, I think they would have placed that order by now.


UA is in the process of giving all the international 772s a complete interior retrofit. They clearly don't intent to retire them soon. I'd give it a minimum of 5 years, and even with that short interior lifespan there's still plenty of time to have widebodies on order starting around 2025. The lack of an order at this point isn't evidence. And the last I saw, the 787 delivery slots open up considerably in 2022.


Some of those 77Es will be flying at least another 5-8 years even if we think the A350 order will come to pass.

They just can't let them sit with old configs for that long given how long they've touted their polaris product.

Sadly, this is what they have to do.
 
dmstorm22
Posts: 623
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:51 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
You can't compare a high capacity and fuel thirsty quad jet like the 744 to a modern FBW twin like the 777. I don't see UA parking them anytime soon. Especially since they are even decking out the 763 with an ultra premium interior.


Uh, except they already have decked out a few of the B763 with Polaris interior.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2707
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:52 am

dmstorm22 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
You can't compare a high capacity and fuel thirsty quad jet like the 744 to a modern FBW twin like the 777. I don't see UA parking them anytime soon. Especially since they are even decking out the 763 with an ultra premium interior.


Uh, except they already have decked out a few of the B763 with Polaris interior.


And your point? I'm aware of that. That's why I put it in the present tense.
 
dmstorm22
Posts: 623
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:00 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
dmstorm22 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
You can't compare a high capacity and fuel thirsty quad jet like the 744 to a modern FBW twin like the 777. I don't see UA parking them anytime soon. Especially since they are even decking out the 763 with an ultra premium interior.


Uh, except they already have decked out a few of the B763 with Polaris interior.


And your point? I'm aware of that. That's why I put it in the present tense.


Apologies, my mistake, I mis-read your post. Thought you said they weren't decking out the 763.

Anyway, to the point, I don't think them fitting out the 77E with Polaris should be read as an indication of how long they expect those jets to be. While planned A350 deliveries are in 2022, most are in the 2024-2027 timeframe, so a large amount will still be flying for a good 4-7 years with Polaris, and of course can down-line replace the 77As UA still has.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3028
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:01 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
jayunited, did you attend the town hall meeting where Jeff Smisek double-downed on UA's commitment to CLE, discussed how the then-current edition of Hemisphere magazine did a whole feature story on CLE... and then, what seemed like the next day, announced CLE's de-hubbing? According to a.net folklore, Smisek was suppose to announce the de-hubbing of IAD, but had a meeting with the devil in his dreams and shocked the company by announcing HE was closing CLE. Of course, in reality, the de-hubbing of CLE was in the planning stages for a very, very long time.

It's silly to cite these meetings as proof of future events. Discussions at these events discuss status quo, but they're certainly fluid and definitely not binding.


No Jeff Smisek never held a town hall in his entire term as CEO of United Airlines he never cared enough to mingle with regular employees. Secondly Jeff Smisek never posted any article in Hemisphere magazine concerning CLE and keeping it as a hub.

If you believed I posted something even remotely close to that please by all means find it. or better yet find the Hemisphere magazine the publication is online all you have to do is search.

If you find a post here on a.netters by all means re-post it and provide the link. Also find that wonderful Hemisphere Magazine article again it's all online and the magazine is open to the public its not restricted to employees only and again post the link. Please find it I beg you. :yes:
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:25 am

jayunited wrote:
No Jeff Smisek never held a town hall in his entire term as CEO of United Airlines he never cared enough to mingle with regular employees. Secondly Jeff Smisek never posted any article in Hemisphere magazine concerning CLE and keeping it as a hub.

If you believed I posted something even remotely close to that please by all means find it. or better yet find the Hemisphere magazine the publication is online all you have to do is search.

If you find a post here on a.netters by all means re-post it and provide the link. Also find that wonderful Hemisphere Magazine article again it's all online and the magazine is open to the public its not restricted to employees only and again post the link. Please find it I beg you. :yes:


Huh? Where did I say Smisek wrote the article? Do you really think that the CEO of even a medium-sized business writes feature articles? And yes, Smisek absolutely attended employee events. As CEO, Smisek was the face of UA - a role in which he failed at, for a multitude of reasons. But his role with UA is misunderstood and embellished on here; most of the decision making at UA came from a group of people who maintain similar (or even more advanced) roles with the Company, albeit different leadership.

And while I was never "important" enough to have a working relationship with Smisek, I attended many meetings he was present at and he's certainly no goon, although he lacked the people skills necessary to run a highly unionized company.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:24 am

WayexTDI wrote:
So, no, nothing is clear. Things do change, businesses do change their minds.
Even if DL made a mistake in refitting the 747-400s shortly before retiring them (in your own view, but when don't they according to you...), that has no bearing as to what UA does with the 777-200s: if UA decides 2 years after refitting them that it's time they retire, they will be retired.

As of now, given the fact that UA keeps increasing the order for the A350, it would seem very safe to say UA will get the A350 sooner rather than later. But then again, businesses change their mind every so often; so, the future will tell.


Except . . . my words are consistent, and your counter does not make sense for rational executives (I think we can assume UA's leaders are rational people). I guess we need a look at word definitions. Intend - "have (a course of action) as one's purpose or objective; plan."

It is clearly UA's plan/objective not to retire retrofitted 777s anytime soon. In fact in the earnings call I just read they stated no real widebody retirements in 5 years, which is consistent with my statement. Their intent is clear, sorry. I'm not at fault for their clear plan.

P.S. It isn't just "my view" about the DL 747s. It's actually DL's view, and I'm conccuring their view. Companies don't take special charges for executing previously planned retirements. Of course, you're free to believe that parking new interiors starting two years in and taking special charges for accelerated retirement isn't a "mistake". I won't argue that line of thinking. It's a red herring to say that what DL did with the 747s doesn't have bearing on what UA does with their 777s. Well of course it doesn't! And I've haven't implied it either.
 
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seabosdca
Posts: 6607
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:13 am

When Delta did its domestic 757 retrofits, we saw math showing that the retrofits generated positive ROI after just 5 years. That math was used to justify retrofitting another 15 high-cycle 757 frames beyond those originally planned. Those additional frames are going to be replaced by A321neos being delivered over the next couple of years. I think a retrofit is a safe sign that the retrofitted frame is going to be around for 5 years or so, but not much longer.

In any event, the idea that UA management is secretly desperate to prevent the A350 from arriving on property is outlandish.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3028
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:40 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
Huh? Where did I say Smisek wrote the article? Do you really think that the CEO of even a medium-sized business writes feature articles? And yes, Smisek absolutely attended employee events. As CEO, Smisek was the face of UA - a role in which he failed at, for a multitude of reasons. But his role with UA is misunderstood and embellished on here; most of the decision making at UA came from a group of people who maintain similar (or even more advanced) roles with the Company, albeit different leadership.

And while I was never "important" enough to have a working relationship with Smisek, I attended many meetings he was present at and he's certainly no goon, although he lacked the people skills necessary to run a highly unionized company.


So you've gone from saying town halls meeting to employee events and being the face of UA. If those events that you speak of are the United 100 or the event where UA would give 10 employees brand new cars then yes he attended 2 employee events a year. But never once did Smisek ever do a town hall meeting with everyday employees. Being the face of UA meant he showed up on Wall Street on TV but never was it just him in a room with everyday employees and him standing there taking questions and answering to the employees of UA.

The part where you say his role with UA is misunderstood is so ridiculous I couldn't help but :spit: :lol: :lol: :lol: there are seriously no words.

Lastly most of Smiseks decision makers as you call them are still working for UA. Munoz started cleaning house slowly but when he hired Kirby, Kirby came in and began cleaning house with a few months of his arrival at UA. UA could never have managed the turn around we are in the mist of right now if the same old Smisek era leadership team (which in addition to Smisek was responsible for UA's decline) was still in place today.
Smisek, misunderstood? :scratchchin: I guess the Chairmans Flight was just more of that misunderstanding. :wave:
 
flyua
Posts: 324
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 9:23 am

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:02 pm

jayunited, I attended two “regular” town hall meetings which Jeff Smisek led and at which Jeff Smisek answered questions from everyday employees. At the SFO town hall I attended, buses were even chartered to bring MOC (SFO Tech Ops base) employees to the Marriott where the town hall was held. Both the IAH and SFO town halls I attended were plenty contentious, but Jeff took all the questions he could in the short 45 minutes allotted, and he gave candid answers. He also promised he would personally read all employee emails sent to him and would attempt to personally answer them. I wrote to him maybe six times during his tenure as CEO. I got replies, usually within minutes of sending him a message — short and to the point (“Thx, but I disagree the town halls should be longer. 45 minutes is long enough for any meeting” — like that), but it’s more than I’ve ever gotten from emails I’ve sent to Oscar Muñoz. I miss the opportunities to attend town halls and to feel like I have a direct link — be it ever so thin and limited — to our leadership.
 
Coalways
Posts: 167
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:33 pm

Any one know what they may unveil at the event? Free WiFi? New lay flat seats on the 737-Max10? More seatback tvs?

https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/new ... ?ana=yahoo
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 289
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:59 pm

jayunited wrote:
[So you've gone from saying town halls meeting to employee events and being the face of UA. If those events that you speak of are the United 100 or the event where UA would give 10 employees brand new cars then yes he attended 2 employee events a year. But never once did Smisek ever do a town hall meeting with everyday employees. Being the face of UA meant he showed up on Wall Street on TV but never was it just him in a room with everyday employees and him standing there taking questions and answering to the employees of UA.

The part where you say his role with UA is misunderstood is so ridiculous I couldn't help but :spit: :lol: :lol: :lol: there are seriously no words.

Lastly most of Smiseks decision makers as you call them are still working for UA. Munoz started cleaning house slowly but when he hired Kirby, Kirby came in and began cleaning house with a few months of his arrival at UA. UA could never have managed the turn around we are in the mist of right now if the same old Smisek era leadership team (which in addition to Smisek was responsible for UA's decline) was still in place today.
Smisek, misunderstood? :scratchchin: I guess the Chairmans Flight was just more of that misunderstanding. :wave:


You're making yourself look like a fool. "You're wrong, Scott Kirby has Administrative Assistants, whereas Jeff Smisek had secretaries! They're not the same thing!" Smisek absolutely attended the same type of events as Kirby. I could give two hoots as to what each of them preferred them to be called. My point is that Smisek told a group of employees that CLE was safe, knowing full well that it wasn't true. There's a reason for that -- being honest would cause financial harm, as employees and clients defected, and the company lost leverage in renegotiating thousands of contracts (among other reasons). The CEO will ALWAYS communicate information as it is, and never divulge behind-the-scenes inner workings. If Kirby were to say UA was still evaluating its options, it would hurt its negotiation positing with both Boeing and Airbus.

Bottom line: it's not solid evidence to support your assertion. Heck, Kirby could be the CEO of AA long before the first 359 is scheduled for delivery.
 
ord
Posts: 1408
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:52 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
But I agree that the 359 order is questionable, given that I trust the credible industry journalists who said that UA sources indicated the airline wanted more time to make a decision (and Airbus agreed, under the condition that UA keep a preliminary order on its books, but with no risk for the additional aircraft).


I'm asking again because you didn't reply the first time. Maybe you didn't see my original post. Please share a link to the credible journalists who, after the September 2017 announcement increasing the order to 45 A350-900s, said UA wanted more time to make a decision. No link = it was never said.
 
ewt340
Posts: 1290
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: United Airlines A350 update

Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:12 am

Jetport wrote:
SonomaFlyer wrote:
Jetport wrote:
I just can’t see why United would complicate their fleet with the A350-900. Seems like airlines are incapable of learning the fleet simplicity lesson Southwest has been beating them over the head with for many decades. It has to be cheaper to use a combination of 787-9, 787-10, and 777's to cover this space. The savings of having one less totally different fleet type surely must swamp the efficiency gains on the small percentage of routes the A350-900 works better on than a combination of 787/777's would.

The only Airline case I can think of where more fleet types has not reduced profitability is Delta. But that is only because they got the best pricing ever on all the new/used types they added to their fleets. From what we know, DAL has paid the lowest price anyone ever has on B717, MD90, A330-900 and A220. Unless United is getting the best pricing ever on A350's and lousy pricing on 787/777's getting the A350 doesn’t seem to make sense.


Comparing UA to WN is frankly silly. The airlines have two entirely different business models and the last time I checked, WN doesn't fly to Europe, Asia, Australia or South America.

The 359 was designed as a 772ER replacement and is a huge market. The 789 is a great aircraft but is smaller than the 359; smaller passenger and cargo capacities.

People discuss the 359 and 789 as if they are direct/interchangeable competitors, they really are not. UA will utilize them on heavily trafficked routes with a capacity bump and lower trip costs.

DL has a huge number of fleets and is the undisputed profit leader of any airline on the planet. They have old aircraft which they overhaul themselves and they have the latest 359s and 220s; they have no issue with fleet complexity and UA frankly does not either.


You apparently missed my point, the A350 is a great plane, but airlines that have lots of 787's and 777's would be better off not adding another type since the current types can handle the vast majority of the flying. I can't believe the few routes the A350 really is more profitable on is worth the expense and hassle of an entirely new type with zero commonality to anything Untied already has. I love airplanes like everyone else on this site, but why do so many on Airliners.net think every airline should have every aircraft available to cover every possible size/range niche? The fact that UAL has delayed this order twice indicates that they had second thoughts about it in the past. Apparently they plan to go through with it now, but I wonder if they will regret it.

On UA vs LUV: You are right, it is hard to compare Untied to Southwest. Southwest makes twice the profit on half the revenue, which makes them 4 times as profitable as United.

On Delta and Their Motley (Diverse?) Fleet: Thanks for reinforcing my point. Delta is very profitable (recently they have essentially matched Southwest on a % profit basis) because they buy cheap used/orphaned airplanes and get best in the world deals on new airplanes. The only new airplane they apparently paid even close to market price for recently was the A359. They got a good deal on the end of line A321 ceo's and a great/best ever deal on the A330 neo's and A220's.


That's the problem with your argument. They are replacing their old B777 with mostly A350 and some B787.

In the future when all A350 delivered to UA. They could easily replace all B777 with it.
 
77H
Posts: 1570
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Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:07 pm

flyua wrote:
jayunited, I attended two “regular” town hall meetings which Jeff Smisek led and at which Jeff Smisek answered questions from everyday employees. At the SFO town hall I attended, buses were even chartered to bring MOC (SFO Tech Ops base) employees to the Marriott where the town hall was held. Both the IAH and SFO town halls I attended were plenty contentious, but Jeff took all the questions he could in the short 45 minutes allotted, and he gave candid answers. He also promised he would personally read all employee emails sent to him and would attempt to personally answer them. I wrote to him maybe six times during his tenure as CEO. I got replies, usually within minutes of sending him a message — short and to the point (“Thx, but I disagree the town halls should be longer. 45 minutes is long enough for any meeting” — like that), but it’s more than I’ve ever gotten from emails I’ve sent to Oscar Muñoz. I miss the opportunities to attend town halls and to feel like I have a direct link — be it ever so thin and limited — to our leadership.


Just to be clear, are you asserting that Muñoz doesn’t provide the same level of Q&A face time to employees as Smisek did? I’ve personally been to 2 town halls in HNL alone, which is a relatively backwater station compared to the hubs. During one of his trips he even went to OGG and KOA and hosted town hall events. I’d be shocked to learn that he has not made reasonably regular appearances to a hub like SFO.

77H
 
jayunited
Posts: 3028
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:43 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:

You're making yourself look like a fool. "You're wrong, Scott Kirby has Administrative Assistants, whereas Jeff Smisek had secretaries! They're not the same thing!" Smisek absolutely attended the same type of events as Kirby. I could give two hoots as to what each of them preferred them to be called. My point is that Smisek told a group of employees that CLE was safe, knowing full well that it wasn't true. There's a reason for that -- being honest would cause financial harm, as employees and clients defected, and the company lost leverage in renegotiating thousands of contracts (among other reasons). The CEO will ALWAYS communicate information as it is, and never divulge behind-the-scenes inner workings. If Kirby were to say UA was still evaluating its options, it would hurt its negotiation positing with both Boeing and Airbus.

Bottom line: it's not solid evidence to support your assertion. Heck, Kirby could be the CEO of AA long before the first 359 is scheduled for delivery.


You seem to have an issue keeping track of what you have posted so below is a copy of what you posted in where you said most of the decision making came from a group of people who maintain similar or more advance roles with the company.
WidebodyPTV wrote:
As CEO, Smisek was the face of UA - a role in which he failed at, for a multitude of reasons. But his role with UA is misunderstood and embellished on here; most of the decision making at UA came from a group of people who maintain similar (or even more advanced) roles with the Company, albeit different leadership.


Now you want to come back and say Kirby has administrative assistance and Smisek had secretaries. An administrative assistant manages the duties with in a certain office a secretary job duties is exactly the same as an administrative assistant. But the most important part is administrative assistants and secretaries are not decision makers the decision makers you referred to when stating Smisek was misunderstood. This has nothing to do with what you originally posted which is what I responded to and I've responded without resulting to name calling or hurling insults. You can disagree with me but one thing I'm not is a fool. If you can't make your point without throwing insults there then perhaps you should find another thread. I didn't take it personally but at the same there is no excuse for that comment. We are all here having a spirited conversation but it should never get to the point of unnecessary insults just because you disagree with someone else.
 
flyua
Posts: 324
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 9:23 am

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:09 pm

77H, Oscar has made many passes through all hubs and many small stations. My issues are they generally aren’t advertised in advance and “pre-staged” for a large audience. The town hall-style events which began during the Bethune era were big events — maybe too big — but I enjoyed being able to hear questions from the front line being answered candidly in front of a large audience. Current leadership’s more ad hoc style makes for a more casual, personal Q&A, but I feel you have to just be lucky and be in the right place at the right time to have a minute with one of our leaders. I’d like to see a more established routine of quarterly or biannual town hall events as was common under past leaders. My other issue probably can’t be easily solved: I wish Oscar would respond to employee emails, as Jeff Smisek made a point of doing. I imagine Oscar receives 100 times more emails from the front line than Jeff did, though.

As for the A350, to be somewhat on topic, bring it on!
 
N649DL
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Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:35 pm

seabosdca wrote:
When Delta did its domestic 757 retrofits, we saw math showing that the retrofits generated positive ROI after just 5 years. That math was used to justify retrofitting another 15 high-cycle 757 frames beyond those originally planned. Those additional frames are going to be replaced by A321neos being delivered over the next couple of years. I think a retrofit is a safe sign that the retrofitted frame is going to be around for 5 years or so, but not much longer.

In any event, the idea that UA management is secretly desperate to prevent the A350 from arriving on property is outlandish.


I wish UA did the same evaluation a few years ago instead of parting ways with their 757s. They're really stressed thin on the premium domestic routes with only a handful of frames left.

It's pretty easy to see what UA and DL used to replace the 744s and both are different:

DL 747 = Replaced by A350s.
UA 747 = Replaced by 773ERs.

So UA has some time and flexibility before getting the A350s on property. IMHO, not in a huge rush but will get them in time.
 
User avatar
CALTECH
Posts: 3428
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Re: United Airlines A350 update

Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:29 pm

scbriml wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
That has been discussed before. There may have been conditions imposed to allow UA to push back the order.


That’s pure speculation not supported by any evidence.

Bricktop wrote:
Why is it so hard to accept that the A350s are coming to UA? I am looking forward to seeing them. In the new livery they will be stunners.


It seems some simply cannot accept the idea of UA operating the A350. Strange.

KFTG wrote:
The A350 is coming. We already have simulators purchased.


** mic drop **


mcsam18 wrote:
KFTG wrote:
The A350 is coming. We already have simulators purchased.


So did AA...

https://viewfromthewing.com/american-airlines-a350-simulator-youll-never-guess-whose-pilots-use/


** Double A-350 mic drop **

Stuff coming out WHQ over the years, United wanted the A-350 order cancelled, stick with the 787. United had worked it out with Airbus, did not hear the details of that, though it was rumored it would be A-321 swaps. Story was Rolls-Royce wouldn't compromise so the cancellation was squashed. Then, to kick the can down the road, delay the decision, the order was increased to avoid a deferral penalty. Order is still valid. Would also love to see the A-350 and 777X at United, but will only believe it till the 1st ones show up on the property. Anything can change...........

Interesting development at Denver Flight Training Center...

"A new 100,000-square-foot building is under construction on the campus now. When that building, valued at roughly $40 million, is completed in the fall of next year, it will make room for another eight simulators. Pending federal approval, those simulators could begin hosting pilot training in the first quarter of 2020, Graham Smith, senior project manager for the renovation, said.
The simulators are critically important, not just to United but other airlines that rent training time there."

More fleet types, more parts,.............time will tell.
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User avatar
OneSexyL1011
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:10 pm

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:36 am

Welp, here we are 1 month later and now we have a definitive update with the XLR order.

Just like I stated earlier in this thread, the A350 will be delayed again sometime within the next 2 years and here we are not even 1 month later and now they have been delayed again until 2027.

Just keep kicking that can down the line boys. Nothing to see here.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 68734.html

United plans to begin taking delivery of the Airbus A321XLR in 2024. Additionally, the airline will defer the delivery of its order of Airbus A350s until 2027 to better align with the carrier's operational needs.


AKA, we don't need/want it anytime soon.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3028
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:36 am

Let first start off by saying I was wrong. I spent a great deal of time on this thread stating the A359s are coming in 2022 we now know that's not happening. Although UA still has not canceled the order but instead deferred it, I was wrong and those who insisted UA would not take the A359 in 2022 were correct.

N649DL wrote:
I wish UA did the same evaluation a few years ago instead of parting ways with their 757s. They're really stressed thin on the premium domestic routes with only a handful of frames left.


UA has been going through this fleet review for a few years now, if you remember this process started before Kirby's arrival at UA. However once Kirby came over UA started the process all over again.

I think UA's hope was the Boeing would deliver on the MAX and the NMA, in fact a few years ago there were several articles stating both DL and UA wanted to be the launch airline for Boeing's NMA. I think UA instead of investing the money in the older 752s believed what ever Boeing was selling them behind the scenes. However reality has caught up with Boeing (just like reality caught up with me today with the announcement deferring the A359s). At the beginning of this year I believe Boeing stated they would have a final decision about the NMA by the end of the year. What Boeing and one one else expected was for their entire MAX program to be grounded and for that grounding to drag on for months with no end in sight. I believe a few months ago there were some article stated Boeing was pulling resources from the NMA program and reassigning them to work on the MAX to get the fleet back into the air. UA first MAX10 is supposed to be delivered in 2020 some of those MAX10s were going to be put to use on premium domestic routes, but with the grounding continuing even UA is questioning if those frames will be delivered on-time.

The MAX9, MAX10 and the NMA was UA's plan A. Now UA has to move on to plan B because I think its obvious the NMA will not be in service by the middle of next decade which is when UA will need it.
 
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DBCoop3r
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:28 am

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:05 am

Yeah the A350 order is now a stick to keep Boeing's WB prices down. They won't take them unless Boeing *really* plays hardball... But they won't because they can't right now.

Did UA ever sign a RR contract, or was the deposit just for the frames?
 
marcelh
Posts: 1101
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:21 am

DBCoop3r wrote:
Did UA ever sign a RR contract, or was the deposit just for the frames?

They can always take some 787 with RR engines.
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 6607
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:36 am

I have to say that is quite a surprise. The 2022 timing seemed appropriate for existing replacement needs. It looks like UA is either going to fly the wings off its older 767s and 777s, or order more 787s.

The first batch of 767-300ERs is around 115k hours today, so they are going to get into uncharted territory in three or four years. The early 777s and later 767s have a bit more breathing room, but they too would be thoroughly used up by 2027.
 
LGeneReese
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:36 am

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:25 pm

marcelh wrote:
DBCoop3r wrote:
Did UA ever sign a RR contract, or was the deposit just for the frames?

They can always take some 787 with RR engines.

If that would hypothetically satisfy the RR/350 contract (which it likely won’t), would the economies of scale for a sub fleet of RR 787s work for UA? Given they are doing that very thing soon with the A319.
 
United857
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:37 am

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:20 pm

LGeneReese wrote:
marcelh wrote:
DBCoop3r wrote:
Did UA ever sign a RR contract, or was the deposit just for the frames?

They can always take some 787 with RR engines.

If that would hypothetically satisfy the RR/350 contract (which it likely won’t), would the economies of scale for a sub fleet of RR 787s work for UA? Given they are doing that very thing soon with the A319.

I would say it depends if UA plans to do the RR maintenance in-house or go by a power by the hour contract. UA wouldn't need to care if the RR is on the latter, since the GE fleet is already large enough to have economies of scale for in-house maintenance. I would say for a carrier of UA's size they would need at least 20 RR powered frames for in-house maintenance to make sense.
A319 A320 A321 A333 A343 A346 A388 B712 B733 B737 B738 B739 B744 B748 B752 B764 B772 B77L B77W B788 B789 CRJ2 E145 E75S E75L E190 MD88 MD90
AA AC B6 CA CX CZ DL EK FM HU JL KA LH LX MU NH NK TK UA US
 
Pinto
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:30 pm

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:14 am

LGeneReese wrote:
marcelh wrote:
DBCoop3r wrote:
Did UA ever sign a RR contract, or was the deposit just for the frames?

They can always take some 787 with RR engines.

If that would hypothetically satisfy the RR/350 contract (which it likely won’t), would the economies of scale for a sub fleet of RR 787s work for UA? Given they are doing that very thing soon with the A319.


With all of the issues the RR 787s have I feel that UA wouldnt take them. Also A319s vs 787s are also a factor, they do two different type of missions and Imdifferences between the engines would probably be more noticed on the 787. If they had to settle with RR it might be cheapest to just pay an out to RR and drop it all.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1101
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: United Airlines A350 update?

Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:37 am

Pinto wrote:
LGeneReese wrote:
marcelh wrote:
They can always take some 787 with RR engines.

If that would hypothetically satisfy the RR/350 contract (which it likely won’t), would the economies of scale for a sub fleet of RR 787s work for UA? Given they are doing that very thing soon with the A319.


With all of the issues the RR 787s have I feel that UA wouldnt take them. Also A319s vs 787s are also a factor, they do two different type of missions and Imdifferences between the engines would probably be more noticed on the 787. If they had to settle with RR it might be cheapest to just pay an out to RR and drop it all.

Those issues will be resolved. And we are not talking about taking 787 with RR now, but in the future.

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