Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
eagles94
Topic Author
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:51 pm

United Airlines in London

Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:36 pm

I see United is still one of the few (if not the only?) U.S airline to still have overseas crew bases.

London, Frankfurt, Narita and Guam if i'm not mistaken.

So my question is, are ALL flights to and from these destinations, operated by based crew?
For example are all flights ex-LHR operated by LHR based crews? Or are there still routes operated by inbound crew from US hubs?

I know EWR and SFO are entirely operated by LHR based crews, but LAX IAD IAH ORD & DEN for example, surely since it's a legacy Pan Am base, the numbers aren't enough to sustain such an operation?
Last edited by eagles94 on Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
CONTACREW
Posts: 1013
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:29 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:52 pm

eagles94 wrote:
I see United is still one of the few (if not the only?) airline to still have overseas crew bases.

London, Frankfurt, Narita and Guam if i'm not mistaken.

So my question is, are ALL flights to and from these destinations, operated by based crew?
For example are all flights ex-LHR operated by LHR based crews? Or are there still routes operated by inbound crew from US hubs?

I know EWR and SFO are entirely operated by LHR based crews, but LAX IAD IAH ORD & DEN for example, surely since it's a legacy Pan Am base, the numbers aren't enough to sustain such an operation?


No they are not. I’m EWR based and I can assure you LHR does not do all the EWR flying let alone all the SFO flying. Some months it may be all EWR, others it’s mixed EWR & LHR same goes with other LHR destinations might be all IAH crews flying the IAH trips or mixed.
Flight Attendants prepare doors for departure, cross check verify straps standby for all call
 
mattyfitzg
Posts: 263
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:50 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:52 pm

Flew IAD-LHR not long ago and the crew were all mid 20's Americans, so i'd imagine they were IAD based since London's last recruitment intake was 1999, when most of the crew on my flight were mere infants
 
UA777EWRTLV
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:50 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:56 pm

eagles94 wrote:
I see United is still one of the few (if not the only?) airline to still have overseas crew bases.

London, Frankfurt, Narita and Guam if i'm not mistaken.

So my question is, are ALL flights to and from these destinations, operated by based crew?
For example are all flights ex-LHR operated by LHR based crews? Or are there still routes operated by inbound crew from US hubs?

I know EWR and SFO are entirely operated by LHR based crews, but LAX IAD IAH ORD & DEN for example, surely since it's a legacy Pan Am base, the numbers aren't enough to sustain such an operation?


LHR/FRA/NRT/GUM...and you forgot HKG....plus HNL are the bases outside of the lower 48. LHR, GUM, and HNL have recently opened this year, and GUM and LHR particularly have had so many openings that very junior new hires based in the lower 48 have been awarded their transfer if requested. NRT, HKG, and FRA remain closed, they haven’t opened for years.
 
User avatar
chepos
Posts: 7273
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:00 pm

eagles94 wrote:
I see United is still one of the few (if not the only?) airline to still have overseas crew bases.

London, Frankfurt, Narita and Guam if i'm not mistaken.

So my question is, are ALL flights to and from these destinations, operated by based crew?
For example are all flights ex-LHR operated by LHR based crews? Or are there still routes operated by inbound crew from US hubs?

I know EWR and SFO are entirely operated by LHR based crews, but LAX IAD IAH ORD & DEN for example, surely since it's a legacy Pan Am base, the numbers aren't enough to sustain such an operation?


There are a few airlines around the world that have crew bases outside their country of origin.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
dcajet
Posts: 4708
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:38 pm

chepos wrote:
eagles94 wrote:
I see United is still one of the few (if not the only?) airline to still have overseas crew bases.

London, Frankfurt, Narita and Guam if i'm not mistaken.

So my question is, are ALL flights to and from these destinations, operated by based crew?
For example are all flights ex-LHR operated by LHR based crews? Or are there still routes operated by inbound crew from US hubs?

I know EWR and SFO are entirely operated by LHR based crews, but LAX IAD IAH ORD & DEN for example, surely since it's a legacy Pan Am base, the numbers aren't enough to sustain such an operation?


There are a few airlines around the world that have crew bases outside their country of origin.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There are less than there used to be, but off the top of my head. there are still a few around:

American
United
Delta (?)
BA
Qantas
JAL
Finnair
Norwegian
Cathay Pacific

and a few more that now escape me, particularly for some Asian flights...
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
User avatar
chepos
Posts: 7273
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

United Airlines in London

Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:51 pm

dcajet wrote:
chepos wrote:
eagles94 wrote:
I see United is still one of the few (if not the only?) airline to still have overseas crew bases.

London, Frankfurt, Narita and Guam if i'm not mistaken.

So my question is, are ALL flights to and from these destinations, operated by based crew?
For example are all flights ex-LHR operated by LHR based crews? Or are there still routes operated by inbound crew from US hubs?

I know EWR and SFO are entirely operated by LHR based crews, but LAX IAD IAH ORD & DEN for example, surely since it's a legacy Pan Am base, the numbers aren't enough to sustain such an operation?


There are a few airlines around the world that have crew bases outside their country of origin.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There are less than there used to be, but off the top of my head. there are still a few around:

American
United
Delta (?)
BA
Qantas
JAL
Finnair
Norwegian
Cathay Pacific

and a few more that now escape me, particularly for some Asian flights...


DL I believe will keep MNL

You can add SV and BR to the list.

I also believe KQ has an Asia cabin crew base? May have closed?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
User avatar
usxguy
Posts: 1891
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:15 pm

Norwegian :)
xx
 
Judge1310
Posts: 414
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:37 pm

As posted earlier, the current UA FA bases not in the US include HKG, NRT, GUM, LHR, FRA. The crew rosters can be mixed and that's done to make flying possibilities more equitable and somewhat evenly distributed. For example, SFO-HND this month is crewed by HKG FAs with SFO-based JP language speakers. Both flights of SFO-LHR this month are entirely crewed by SFO crews, but sometimes one of them will have a majority LHR based crews. SFO-NRT will usually have a mix of majority NRT and a few SFO.

Working with crew planning can get particularly complicated! :)
 
User avatar
mats
Posts: 561
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 11:20 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:06 am

Air New Zealand also has a London/Heathrow crew base.

The carriers must be doing the math about recruitment, staffing coverage, taxes, unions, benefits, etc.
 
a318
Posts: 299
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:56 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:27 am

Both Cathay Pacific and Saudia have cabin crew bases in JFK. I believe Cathay has a base in LAX as well. Finnair used to have a base in JFK for one year but closed it in 2014 - they still have bases all over Asia. Qantas and Air New Zealand have bases in LHR. Lots of airlines have this.
 
RainerBoeing777
Posts: 527
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:43 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:11 am

United has reduced too much in London Heathrow (LHR), in 2000 it had more flights and capacity that today has been drastically reduced, while Delta and American have gained capacity and frequencies


2000 BOS-LHR B763 (Daily) - 2019 it's no longer available
2000 ORD-LHR (3 daily flights) Boeing 744/763/772 - 2019 reduced all flights to B763
2000 LAX-LHR (2 daily flights) Boeing 744 - 2019 reduced to a daily flight with Boeing 789
2000 SFO-LHR (2 daily flights) Boeing 772/744 - 2019 (2 daily fligths) Boeing 77W (The only current route that increased capacity)
2000 IAD-LHR (4 daily flights) 3 daily flights with Boeing 772 and one with Boeing 763 - 2019 Now 3 daily flights with Boeing 772/788/752


New York Sector
2000 EWR-LHR B772 (Daily)
2000 JFK-LHR B763 (3 daily flights)
2019* United currently operates 5 flights to LHR from EWR taking into account that Continental had two daily flights between EWR-LHR, United has reduced to 3 daily flights of 4 that it had in 2000 all operated with B763 in the same way also reduce the capacity that had continental with the 2 daily flights with Boeing 777 currently operates with B763

https://airlineroutes.wordpress.com/2010/12/27/s00-ua/
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
jbmitt
Posts: 659
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 3:59 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:37 am

I flew on DEN-LHR-DEN this summer and had London based flight attendants and LAX based pilots.
 
Italianflyer
Posts: 686
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:06 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:15 am

I assume that it's still cost effective to have FAs based in very expensive hotel cities like LHR, HKG, TYO (HND especially) and to some extent FRA. Even with block booking contracts those rooms can exceed $300 a night in city centers. Shaving 3-4 rooms off with a locally domiciled crew adds up over time. Using minimal space for V-files and an ISF cubical must wash out.
 
United1
Posts: 4186
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:19 am

jbmitt wrote:
I flew on DEN-LHR-DEN this summer and had London based flight attendants and LAX based pilots.


Sounds about right.

Just to clarify something all UA pilots are US based, the only international bases are for F/As.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
Shields
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:49 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:59 am

Do the London-based FAs only fly a route that touches LHR at one end? Or could they fly a trip such as LHR-EWR-MXP-EWR-LHR or even other domestic routes before returning to LHR? Thanks.
 
CONTACREW
Posts: 1013
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:29 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:21 am

Shields wrote:
Do the London-based FAs only fly a route that touches LHR at one end? Or could they fly a trip such as LHR-EWR-MXP-EWR-LHR or even other domestic routes before returning to LHR? Thanks.


No LHR FAs only do trips that originate & terminate in LHR. They are not permitted to fly a route you mentioned above nor are they permitted to fly domestic pairings.
Flight Attendants prepare doors for departure, cross check verify straps standby for all call
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2100
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:27 am

United1 wrote:
jbmitt wrote:
I flew on DEN-LHR-DEN this summer and had London based flight attendants and LAX based pilots.


Sounds about right.

Just to clarify something all UA pilots are US based, the only international bases are for F/As.


Thank you for clarifying that. GUM is a pilot base and for those who don't know, Guam is a U.S. Trust Territory.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
smi0006
Posts: 2571
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:45 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:18 am

mats wrote:
Air New Zealand also has a London/Heathrow crew base.

The carriers must be doing the math about recruitment, staffing coverage, taxes, unions, benefits, etc.


NZ LHR crew only operate LHR-LAX
QF crews operate all the way to AU; LHR-PER, and LHR-SIN-MEL/SYD. QF also has an AKL base and they fly ever where from Asia, to JNB, to JFK... not sure the Kiwis to LHR though.

Jetstar 787 crew are mostly offshore based - with only the CSM being AU based. BKK, Phuket based,NRT base. Thai crew will often operate some lengthy 8-12 day trips HKT-MEL-HNL-MEL-DPS-MEL-HKT some really rough conditions too.

How would the UA ratio of mixing crews be? 2-3 offshore majority onshore? Or 50/50 or no set ratio?
 
alan3
Posts: 422
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:13 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:20 am

I believe Royal Jordanian have BKK based FA's who operate the BKK-HKG and BKK-KUL legs. I flew HKG-BKK and the FA's seemed to be all Thai while the in-charge pursor and pilots seemed to be Jordanian (males).
 
User avatar
vhtje
Posts: 1213
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:40 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:03 am

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
United has reduced too much in London Heathrow (LHR), in 2000 it had more flights and capacity that today has been drastically reduced, while Delta and American have gained capacity and frequencies


2000 BOS-LHR B763 (Daily) - 2019 it's no longer available
2000 ORD-LHR (3 daily flights) Boeing 744/763/772 - 2019 reduced all flights to B763
2000 LAX-LHR (2 daily flights) Boeing 744 - 2019 reduced to a daily flight with Boeing 789
2000 SFO-LHR (2 daily flights) Boeing 772/744 - 2019 (2 daily fligths) Boeing 77W (The only current route that increased capacity)
2000 IAD-LHR (4 daily flights) 3 daily flights with Boeing 772 and one with Boeing 763 - 2019 Now 3 daily flights with Boeing 772/788/752


New York Sector
2000 EWR-LHR B772 (Daily)
2000 JFK-LHR B763 (3 daily flights)
2019* United currently operates 5 flights to LHR from EWR taking into account that Continental had two daily flights between EWR-LHR, United has reduced to 3 daily flights of 4 that it had in 2000 all operated with B763 in the same way also reduce the capacity that had continental with the 2 daily flights with Boeing 777 currently operates with B763

https://airlineroutes.wordpress.com/2010/12/27/s00-ua/


That's quite a big reduction from Star Alliance from what is reportedly the world's most lucrative O&D market. Aside from NZ's LAX flight, what other carriers serve LON <> US? Doesn't SQ hold a TATL fifth freedom?
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
fraT
Posts: 1174
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:11 am

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
United has reduced too much in London Heathrow (LHR), in 2000 it had more flights and capacity that today has been drastically reduced, while Delta and American have gained capacity and frequencies


2000 BOS-LHR B763 (Daily) - 2019 it's no longer available
2000 ORD-LHR (3 daily flights) Boeing 744/763/772 - 2019 reduced all flights to B763
2000 LAX-LHR (2 daily flights) Boeing 744 - 2019 reduced to a daily flight with Boeing 789
2000 SFO-LHR (2 daily flights) Boeing 772/744 - 2019 (2 daily fligths) Boeing 77W (The only current route that increased capacity)
2000 IAD-LHR (4 daily flights) 3 daily flights with Boeing 772 and one with Boeing 763 - 2019 Now 3 daily flights with Boeing 772/788/752


New York Sector
2000 EWR-LHR B772 (Daily)
2000 JFK-LHR B763 (3 daily flights)
2019* United currently operates 5 flights to LHR from EWR taking into account that Continental had two daily flights between EWR-LHR, United has reduced to 3 daily flights of 4 that it had in 2000 all operated with B763 in the same way also reduce the capacity that had continental with the 2 daily flights with Boeing 777 currently operates with B763

https://airlineroutes.wordpress.com/2010/12/27/s00-ua/


To have the whole picture, you should add the LHR-IAH and LHR-DEN flights, which UA added since the 2000s (or took over from CO). Including those, the reductions won't be as big.
 
Arion640
Posts: 3077
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:15 am

vhtje wrote:
RainerBoeing777 wrote:
United has reduced too much in London Heathrow (LHR), in 2000 it had more flights and capacity that today has been drastically reduced, while Delta and American have gained capacity and frequencies


2000 BOS-LHR B763 (Daily) - 2019 it's no longer available
2000 ORD-LHR (3 daily flights) Boeing 744/763/772 - 2019 reduced all flights to B763
2000 LAX-LHR (2 daily flights) Boeing 744 - 2019 reduced to a daily flight with Boeing 789
2000 SFO-LHR (2 daily flights) Boeing 772/744 - 2019 (2 daily fligths) Boeing 77W (The only current route that increased capacity)
2000 IAD-LHR (4 daily flights) 3 daily flights with Boeing 772 and one with Boeing 763 - 2019 Now 3 daily flights with Boeing 772/788/752


New York Sector
2000 EWR-LHR B772 (Daily)
2000 JFK-LHR B763 (3 daily flights)
2019* United currently operates 5 flights to LHR from EWR taking into account that Continental had two daily flights between EWR-LHR, United has reduced to 3 daily flights of 4 that it had in 2000 all operated with B763 in the same way also reduce the capacity that had continental with the 2 daily flights with Boeing 777 currently operates with B763

https://airlineroutes.wordpress.com/2010/12/27/s00-ua/


That's quite a big reduction from Star Alliance from what is reportedly the world's most lucrative O&D market. Aside from NZ's LAX flight, what other carriers serve LON <> US? Doesn't SQ hold a TATL fifth freedom?


SQ operate Manchester to Houston. I think Air France did too until a few years ago from the UK.
 
UA777EWRTLV
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:50 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:32 am

CONTACREW wrote:
Shields wrote:
Do the London-based FAs only fly a route that touches LHR at one end? Or could they fly a trip such as LHR-EWR-MXP-EWR-LHR or even other domestic routes before returning to LHR? Thanks.


No LHR FAs only do trips that originate & terminate in LHR. They are not permitted to fly a route you mentioned above nor are they permitted to fly domestic pairings.


Well...not to nitpick, but that’s not entirely true. LHR/FRA/NRT/HKG FAs are not allowed to operate DOMESTIC flights when they land in the USA. But they CAN operate other international flights. Recent years when LHR was over staffed, LHR crews would operate six day trips like LHR-IAD-CDG-IAD-LHR. Just September or October, HKG base was overstaffed so they flew HKG-SFO-NRT-SFO-HKG as a week long trip.
 
quiet1
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:39 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:00 am

Italianflyer wrote:
I assume that it's still cost effective to have FAs based in very expensive hotel cities like LHR, HKG, TYO (HND especially) ...

Yet, oddly enough, the NRT-based F/As don't (and won't even with the expansion) cover HND flights.
 
zkncj
Posts: 3892
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:21 am

mats wrote:
Air New Zealand also has a London/Heathrow crew base.

The carriers must be doing the math about recruitment, staffing coverage, taxes, unions, benefits, etc.


The LHR basses crew have less working conditions that the traditional AKL based long-haul crew (777 fleet). The LHR typically spend 1 night on in LAX. Were as the NZ long-haul crew get 2-3 nights depending on roster (which is crazy when AKL-LAX is double daily. To use an AKL based crew on AKL-LAX-LHR-LAX-AKL is around an 14 day trip!

The 787s are on new mid-haul agreements and will typically fly home the next day.

NZ also has an PVG crew base for the flights to/from PVG which got them an bit of flack when they opened it.
 
hereandthere41
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:31 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:03 am

smi0006 wrote:
mats wrote:
Air New Zealand also has a London/Heathrow crew base.

The carriers must be doing the math about recruitment, staffing coverage, taxes, unions, benefits, etc.


NZ LHR crew only operate LHR-LAX
QF crews operate all the way to AU; LHR-PER, and LHR-SIN-MEL/SYD. QF also has an AKL base and they fly ever where from Asia, to JNB, to JFK... not sure the Kiwis to LHR though.

Jetstar 787 crew are mostly offshore based - with only the CSM being AU based. BKK, Phuket based,NRT base. Thai crew will often operate some lengthy 8-12 day trips HKT-MEL-HNL-MEL-DPS-MEL-HKT some really rough conditions too.

How would the UA ratio of mixing crews be? 2-3 offshore majority onshore? Or 50/50 or no set ratio?


There is not set ratio at UA EXCEPT, in total, international bases can't fly more than 40% of international flying. This is monitored by the flight attendant union.
Some flights are mixed crews, some are not. It can change month to month.
 
hereandthere41
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:31 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:07 am

quiet1 wrote:
Italianflyer wrote:
I assume that it's still cost effective to have FAs based in very expensive hotel cities like LHR, HKG, TYO (HND especially) ...

Yet, oddly enough, the NRT-based F/As don't (and won't even with the expansion) cover HND flights.[/qu

Currently, there's no contractual language that allows for HND to be a co-terminal with NRT. Unless that changes in the next contract, HND flying will be done by US crews. Cancellations, re-crews notwithstanding.
 
quiet1
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:39 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:23 am

Hey, something is a bit wrong here: I (@quiet1) wrote the post above and was quoting @Italianflyer, but it shows @hereandthere41 wrote the post above quoting @quiet1...
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2071
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:39 am

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
United has reduced too much in London Heathrow (LHR), in 2000 it had more flights and capacity that today has been drastically reduced, while Delta and American have gained capacity and frequencies


2000 BOS-LHR B763 (Daily) - 2019 it's no longer available
2000 ORD-LHR (3 daily flights) Boeing 744/763/772 - 2019 reduced all flights to B763
2000 LAX-LHR (2 daily flights) Boeing 744 - 2019 reduced to a daily flight with Boeing 789
2000 SFO-LHR (2 daily flights) Boeing 772/744 - 2019 (2 daily fligths) Boeing 77W (The only current route that increased capacity)
2000 IAD-LHR (4 daily flights) 3 daily flights with Boeing 772 and one with Boeing 763 - 2019 Now 3 daily flights with Boeing 772/788/752


New York Sector
2000 EWR-LHR B772 (Daily)
2000 JFK-LHR B763 (3 daily flights)
2019* United currently operates 5 flights to LHR from EWR taking into account that Continental had two daily flights between EWR-LHR, United has reduced to 3 daily flights of 4 that it had in 2000 all operated with B763 in the same way also reduce the capacity that had continental with the 2 daily flights with Boeing 777 currently operates with B763

A little bit of context here, is required. BOS-LHR on UA was short lived, and performed poorly. ORD-LHR has been consistently 3 x daily since the 1990s. LAX-LHR was not flown with a 747-400. It was a 772 until it was replaced with a 789 when LAX long haul international went all 789 a few years back. SFO-LHR is the same at 2 x daily. The 744 was phased out. The IAD schedule is admittedly, a little weird with a 757 thrown in.

As for PMUA NY Area to LHR, EWR was dropped first. By 2006, UA was down to 1 x daily JFK on the 772 and sold the route the DL for something like $30MM.

UA remains a pretty big carrier at LHR with EWR/IAD/ORD/IAH/LAX/SFO/DEN and operates out a much more modern facility at the Queen's Terminal than T3. I wouldn't say they've given away share. They've simply rationalized the operation around the merged UA/CO network and hub structure. AA remains the dominant US3 at LHR because of the JV with BA. Without VS, DL would be an also-ran at LHR and its worth questioning how much corporate traffic DL/VS have vs. UA and AA/BA. The billion dollar revenue recently highlighted on the NYC-LON route article clearly suggests that BA/AA own that market. UA is smartly adjusting its EWR-LHR capacity to include higher J cabin 763s which if you've flown on one recently, you'll think is a new plane if you're not an av-geek.

https://airlineroutes.wordpress.com/2010/12/27/s00-ua/
 
Someone83
Posts: 4904
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:54 am

dcajet wrote:

There are less than there used to be, but off the top of my head. there are still a few around:

American
United
Delta (?)
BA
Qantas
JAL
Finnair
Norwegian
Cathay Pacific

and a few more that now escape me, particularly for some Asian flights...


If you list Norwegian here, you pretty much should include most European low cost carriers
 
amc737
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:56 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:52 am

Hi all

It might be worth a comparison of United flights to Heathrow over the years, UA started operations to LHR in April 1991, in August 1991 in terms of long haul flights:

JFK 3 x daily
EWR 1 x daily
IAD 2 x daily
SFO 1 x daily
SEA 5 x weekly
LAX 1 x daily

So in August 1991 the most UA long haul arrivals where 9 per day, 7 were 747s with 767's only on 1 IAD and a JFK. This was pretty much the same frequency as Pan Am had before they left LHR, Pan Am flew to MIA and DTW (in summer) which effectively UA replaced with EWR and an extra IAD. No United to Chicago at this point as Bermuda 2 did not permit another US carrier to fly London to Chicago and American had these route authorities (purchased from TWA). I appreciate United had more flights at the point due to 727 operation but this is outside of the long haul focus.

10 years later in August 2001 United has the following flights to Heathrow:

DEL 1 x daily
IAD 3 x daily
JFK 3 x daily
EWR 1 x daily
ORD 3 x daily
SFO 3 x daily
LAX 2 x daily
BOS 1 x daily

This was quite a peak of 17 daily flights, including 4 747's per day from IAD, DEL, ORD and SFO. IAD & DEL formed part of UA1 & 2 the round the world flights.
After 9/11 flights did decrease, BOS, DEL, EWR & JFK were axed over time and I seem to remember UA leased slots to other airlines.

If we move forward to August 2019 United operated the following services on a daily basis:

ORD x 3
EWR x 5
SFO x 2
IAH x 2
IAD x 3
DEN x 1
LAX x 1

So 17 flights which is the same as August 2001. I understand that this includes Continentals flights following the merge however 2001 was really quite a high peak and was never likely to be sustained following 9/11, the global financial crash and open skies. In comparison American had 21 daily flights this summer so 4 more each day and the benefit from Heathrow being a oneworld hub, Uniteds feed at Heathrow has reduced over the years as British Midland/bmi retrenched and eventually merged with BA so I think Uniteds 17 daily flight isn't to bad.

amc737
 
dcajet
Posts: 4708
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:11 pm

Someone83 wrote:
dcajet wrote:

There are less than there used to be, but off the top of my head. there are still a few around:

American
United
Delta (?)
BA
Qantas
JAL
Finnair
Norwegian
Cathay Pacific

and a few more that now escape me, particularly for some Asian flights...


If you list Norwegian here, you pretty much should include most European low cost carriers


Not sure why you think that Norwegian is any different from, say, Qantas and their London cabin crew base. Well, Norwegian has a Bangkok cabin crew base. The rationale behind them is the same, wouldn't you agree? I am not opposed to include the European low cost carriers on the list.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4708
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:18 pm

UA777EWRTLV wrote:
CONTACREW wrote:
Shields wrote:
Do the London-based FAs only fly a route that touches LHR at one end? Or could they fly a trip such as LHR-EWR-MXP-EWR-LHR or even other domestic routes before returning to LHR? Thanks.


No LHR FAs only do trips that originate & terminate in LHR. They are not permitted to fly a route you mentioned above nor are they permitted to fly domestic pairings.


Well...not to nitpick, but that’s not entirely true. LHR/FRA/NRT/HKG FAs are not allowed to operate DOMESTIC flights when they land in the USA. But they CAN operate other international flights. Recent years when LHR was over staffed, LHR crews would operate six day trips like LHR-IAD-CDG-IAD-LHR. Just September or October, HKG base was overstaffed so they flew HKG-SFO-NRT-SFO-HKG as a week long trip.


That arrangement is similar to the AA EZE base. These FAs are not allowed to operate domestic US flights, so from MIA they do other international flights to Latin America such as, EZE-MIA-GRU-MIA-EZE or EZE-MIA-COR-MIA-EZE. I presume other Latin bases such as BOG, LIM & SCL operate similar lines.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
RainerBoeing777
Posts: 527
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:43 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:41 pm

amc737 wrote:
Hi all

It might be worth a comparison of United flights to Heathrow over the years, UA started operations to LHR in April 1991, in August 1991 in terms of long haul flights:

JFK 3 x daily
EWR 1 x daily
IAD 2 x daily
SFO 1 x daily
SEA 5 x weekly
LAX 1 x daily

So in August 1991 the most UA long haul arrivals where 9 per day, 7 were 747s with 767's only on 1 IAD and a JFK. This was pretty much the same frequency as Pan Am had before they left LHR, Pan Am flew to MIA and DTW (in summer) which effectively UA replaced with EWR and an extra IAD. No United to Chicago at this point as Bermuda 2 did not permit another US carrier to fly London to Chicago and American had these route authorities (purchased from TWA). I appreciate United had more flights at the point due to 727 operation but this is outside of the long haul focus.

10 years later in August 2001 United has the following flights to Heathrow:

DEL 1 x daily
IAD 3 x daily
JFK 3 x daily
EWR 1 x daily
ORD 3 x daily
SFO 3 x daily
LAX 2 x daily
BOS 1 x daily

This was quite a peak of 17 daily flights, including 4 747's per day from IAD, DEL, ORD and SFO. IAD & DEL formed part of UA1 & 2 the round the world flights.
After 9/11 flights did decrease, BOS, DEL, EWR & JFK were axed over time and I seem to remember UA leased slots to other airlines.

If we move forward to August 2019 United operated the following services on a daily basis:

ORD x 3
EWR x 5
SFO x 2
IAH x 2
IAD x 3
DEN x 1
LAX x 1

So 17 flights which is the same as August 2001. I understand that this includes Continentals flights following the merge however 2001 was really quite a high peak and was never likely to be sustained following 9/11, the global financial crash and open skies. In comparison American had 21 daily flights this summer so 4 more each day and the benefit from Heathrow being a oneworld hub, Uniteds feed at Heathrow has reduced over the years as British Midland/bmi retrenched and eventually merged with BA so I think Uniteds 17 daily flight isn't to bad.

amc737


but there is another detail the capacity in 2001 there were multiple flights with Boeing 777 and 747, now most are with smaller airplanes like Boeing 767, UA should have 21 slots in LHR adding those of Continental.

There are routes that lost capacity in very important markets in the case of LAX-LHR in 2001 double daily flying with Boeing 747 and now 1 daily flights with Boeing 787 too much loss of capacity and equal ORD of Boeing 747 and 777 pass to Boeing 767, they are markets where there is sufficient O&D demand to have increased
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
EssentialBusDC
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:06 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:01 pm

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
amc737 wrote:
Hi all

It might be worth a comparison of United flights to Heathrow over the years, UA started operations to LHR in April 1991, in August 1991 in terms of long haul flights:

JFK 3 x daily
EWR 1 x daily
IAD 2 x daily
SFO 1 x daily
SEA 5 x weekly
LAX 1 x daily

So in August 1991 the most UA long haul arrivals where 9 per day, 7 were 747s with 767's only on 1 IAD and a JFK. This was pretty much the same frequency as Pan Am had before they left LHR, Pan Am flew to MIA and DTW (in summer) which effectively UA replaced with EWR and an extra IAD. No United to Chicago at this point as Bermuda 2 did not permit another US carrier to fly London to Chicago and American had these route authorities (purchased from TWA). I appreciate United had more flights at the point due to 727 operation but this is outside of the long haul focus.

10 years later in August 2001 United has the following flights to Heathrow:

DEL 1 x daily
IAD 3 x daily
JFK 3 x daily
EWR 1 x daily
ORD 3 x daily
SFO 3 x daily
LAX 2 x daily
BOS 1 x daily

This was quite a peak of 17 daily flights, including 4 747's per day from IAD, DEL, ORD and SFO. IAD & DEL formed part of UA1 & 2 the round the world flights.
After 9/11 flights did decrease, BOS, DEL, EWR & JFK were axed over time and I seem to remember UA leased slots to other airlines.

If we move forward to August 2019 United operated the following services on a daily basis:

ORD x 3
EWR x 5
SFO x 2
IAH x 2
IAD x 3
DEN x 1
LAX x 1

So 17 flights which is the same as August 2001. I understand that this includes Continentals flights following the merge however 2001 was really quite a high peak and was never likely to be sustained following 9/11, the global financial crash and open skies. In comparison American had 21 daily flights this summer so 4 more each day and the benefit from Heathrow being a oneworld hub, Uniteds feed at Heathrow has reduced over the years as British Midland/bmi retrenched and eventually merged with BA so I think Uniteds 17 daily flight isn't to bad.

amc737


but there is another detail the capacity in 2001 there were multiple flights with Boeing 777 and 747, now most are with smaller airplanes like Boeing 767, UA should have 21 slots in LHR adding those of Continental.

There are routes that lost capacity in very important markets in the case of LAX-LHR in 2001 double daily flying with Boeing 747 and now 1 daily flights with Boeing 787 too much loss of capacity and equal ORD of Boeing 747 and 777 pass to Boeing 767, they are markets where there is sufficient O&D demand to have increased

At lot has changed since 2001. More competitors to LHR for one with the open skies and the end of Bermuda 2. And so what what if capacity is reduced? Profitability is what counts. Hence the whole conversion of the schedule to the Hi J 767’s on EWR and ORD.

And since there is no longer a BMI, LHR has become primarily an O&D market with onward Europe connections routed via the rest of the Star partners hubs.
 
HP69
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:04 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:13 pm

Does DL have a LHR base?
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1831
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:06 pm

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
but there is another detail the capacity in 2001 there were multiple flights with Boeing 777 and 747, now most are with smaller airplanes like Boeing 767, UA should have 21 slots in LHR adding those of Continental.

There are routes that lost capacity in very important markets in the case of LAX-LHR in 2001 double daily flying with Boeing 747 and now 1 daily flights with Boeing 787 too much loss of capacity and equal ORD of Boeing 747 and 777 pass to Boeing 767, they are markets where there is sufficient O&D demand to have increased

And guess what changed? The market.

LHR is not the only destination of the world - UA is bigger than what it was before 9/11 in terms of going to all over the Europe. And why do you think people shrink capacity? Because of profitability, simple.

UA is chasing after the highest-yielding pax to LHR and everything else goes to its European network (or competitors if they're going to London). What makes you think airline have to maintain or expand its capacity to a specific airport and why? This happens all over the world.

You can say whatever importance LHR is to the world, but for UA it's a dead-end and most of it's traffic is O&D to London. They don't have to expand the capacity like you have implied - plenty of airlines shrink globally to be more profitable. Heck even DL does the same.

Michael
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8427
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:16 pm

As said 2001 was a high water mark, so isn't really a fair data point. United shrank significantly through bankruptcy, ending JFK and EWR. By the time of the merger LAX was already down to 1x777 and ORD was all 767. While still smaller than United in 2001, United this summer almost certainly had more capacity at LHR than UA+CO combined at the time of the merger.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
User avatar
chepos
Posts: 7273
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:57 pm

HP69 wrote:
Does DL have a LHR base?


No, DL does not have a LHR crew base.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4837
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:08 am

eamondzhang wrote:
RainerBoeing777 wrote:
but there is another detail the capacity in 2001 there were multiple flights with Boeing 777 and 747, now most are with smaller airplanes like Boeing 767, UA should have 21 slots in LHR adding those of Continental.

There are routes that lost capacity in very important markets in the case of LAX-LHR in 2001 double daily flying with Boeing 747 and now 1 daily flights with Boeing 787 too much loss of capacity and equal ORD of Boeing 747 and 777 pass to Boeing 767, they are markets where there is sufficient O&D demand to have increased

And guess what changed? The market.

LHR is not the only destination of the world - UA is bigger than what it was before 9/11 in terms of going to all over the Europe. And why do you think people shrink capacity? Because of profitability, simple.

UA is chasing after the highest-yielding pax to LHR and everything else goes to its European network (or competitors if they're going to London). What makes you think airline have to maintain or expand its capacity to a specific airport and why? This happens all over the world.

You can say whatever importance LHR is to the world, but for UA it's a dead-end and most of it's traffic is O&D to London. They don't have to expand the capacity like you have implied - plenty of airlines shrink globally to be more profitable. Heck even DL does the same.

Michael


Er no.
The term “dead end” is flat wrong.
Although LHR is overwhelmingly an O&D market, STAR have the newest and most modern terminal at LHR where a lot of code sharing goes on. Indeed LHR has a bigger UA presence than anywhere else in Europe, bigger than STAR hub Frankfurt. So they’re in a much better place than they were two decades ago IMHO, certainly making more money!
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14146
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:51 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
As said 2001 was a high water mark, so isn't really a fair data point. United shrank significantly through bankruptcy, ending JFK and EWR. By the time of the merger LAX was already down to 1x777 and ORD was all 767. While still smaller than United in 2001, United this summer almost certainly had more capacity at LHR than UA+CO combined at the time of the merger.


Speaking of United at London in 2001, this YouTube recommended this video for me tonight on my tv.

https://youtu.be/HrxFzdqflBw



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Stickpusher
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:54 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:05 am

vhtje wrote:
RainerBoeing777 wrote:
United has reduced too much in London Heathrow (LHR)...


That's quite a big reduction from Star Alliance from what is reportedly the world's most lucrative O&D market. Aside from NZ's LAX flight, what other carriers serve LON <> US? Doesn't SQ hold a TATL fifth freedom?


Air India (Star) has historic 5th Freedom rights between LON-NYC and has used them recently with their 788s. I'm not sure if they are presently actively using the rights or utilising slots for other routes, but they certainly were in spring.
 
eagles94
Topic Author
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:51 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:06 am

Do UA Crews based in London get provided with accommodation or hotac? Or do they have to pay the extortionate London prices for themselves. If that’s the case United wage bill must be pretty high, and would this not make the case of a base redundant as it surely must be cheaper just to provide crews with a night in a hotel and fly back to the US
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8270
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:17 am

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
amc737 wrote:
Hi all

It might be worth a comparison of United flights to Heathrow over the years, UA started operations to LHR in April 1991, in August 1991 in terms of long haul flights:

JFK 3 x daily
EWR 1 x daily
IAD 2 x daily
SFO 1 x daily
SEA 5 x weekly
LAX 1 x daily

So in August 1991 the most UA long haul arrivals where 9 per day, 7 were 747s with 767's only on 1 IAD and a JFK. This was pretty much the same frequency as Pan Am had before they left LHR, Pan Am flew to MIA and DTW (in summer) which effectively UA replaced with EWR and an extra IAD. No United to Chicago at this point as Bermuda 2 did not permit another US carrier to fly London to Chicago and American had these route authorities (purchased from TWA). I appreciate United had more flights at the point due to 727 operation but this is outside of the long haul focus.

10 years later in August 2001 United has the following flights to Heathrow:

DEL 1 x daily
IAD 3 x daily
JFK 3 x daily
EWR 1 x daily
ORD 3 x daily
SFO 3 x daily
LAX 2 x daily
BOS 1 x daily

This was quite a peak of 17 daily flights, including 4 747's per day from IAD, DEL, ORD and SFO. IAD & DEL formed part of UA1 & 2 the round the world flights.
After 9/11 flights did decrease, BOS, DEL, EWR & JFK were axed over time and I seem to remember UA leased slots to other airlines.

If we move forward to August 2019 United operated the following services on a daily basis:

ORD x 3
EWR x 5
SFO x 2
IAH x 2
IAD x 3
DEN x 1
LAX x 1

So 17 flights which is the same as August 2001. I understand that this includes Continentals flights following the merge however 2001 was really quite a high peak and was never likely to be sustained following 9/11, the global financial crash and open skies. In comparison American had 21 daily flights this summer so 4 more each day and the benefit from Heathrow being a oneworld hub, Uniteds feed at Heathrow has reduced over the years as British Midland/bmi retrenched and eventually merged with BA so I think Uniteds 17 daily flight isn't to bad.

amc737


but there is another detail the capacity in 2001 there were multiple flights with Boeing 777 and 747, now most are with smaller airplanes like Boeing 767, UA should have 21 slots in LHR adding those of Continental.

There are routes that lost capacity in very important markets in the case of LAX-LHR in 2001 double daily flying with Boeing 747 and now 1 daily flights with Boeing 787 too much loss of capacity and equal ORD of Boeing 747 and 777 pass to Boeing 767, they are markets where there is sufficient O&D demand to have increased


What you're seeing is an effect of AA/BA and DL/VS immunized joint ventures. It's really no different from DL cutting its NRT hub - UA has ANA, AA has JL, and DL is left to go solo.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8270
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:20 am

eagles94 wrote:
Do UA Crews based in London get provided with accommodation or hotac? Or do they have to pay the extortionate London prices for themselves.


Why would they? Does UA pay for EWR/SFO rooms for EWR/SFO-based crew?
 
eagles94
Topic Author
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:51 pm

Re: United Airlines in London

Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:42 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
eagles94 wrote:
Do UA Crews based in London get provided with accommodation or hotac? Or do they have to pay the extortionate London prices for themselves.


Why would they? Does UA pay for EWR/SFO rooms for EWR/SFO-based crew?


Well I didn’t think the process of someone transferring from a US Base would be as simple as just packing up and moving over
 
quiet1
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:39 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:53 pm

UA777EWRTLV wrote:
CONTACREW wrote:
Shields wrote:
Do the London-based FAs only fly a route that touches LHR at one end? Or could they fly a trip such as LHR-EWR-MXP-EWR-LHR or even other domestic routes before returning to LHR? Thanks.


No LHR FAs only do trips that originate & terminate in LHR. They are not permitted to fly a route you mentioned above nor are they permitted to fly domestic pairings.


Well...not to nitpick, but that’s not entirely true. LHR/FRA/NRT/HKG FAs are not allowed to operate DOMESTIC flights when they land in the USA. But they CAN operate other international flights. Recent years when LHR was over staffed, LHR crews would operate six day trips like LHR-IAD-CDG-IAD-LHR. Just September or October, HKG base was overstaffed so they flew HKG-SFO-NRT-SFO-HKG as a week long trip.


Well, technically (and contractually) *some* F/As based in the UA overseas domiciles *can* work domestic flights. They cannot be *scheduled* to work them when the trip pairing is created, but they *can* be *reassigned* to work domestic flights.

At the overseas domiciles, there are (a) local-hire F/As and (b) F/As who transferred from the USA. The former don't have the proper immigrations status to work *in* the US, only *to* and *from* the US, so cannot work domestic flights. The US transferee F/As of course *can* work in the USA, and therefore can be reassigned to work domestic flights.

Doesn't it happen often? No, not at all. In fact, it is very, very rare for it to happen, but it *has* happened.
Last edited by quiet1 on Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
quiet1
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:39 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:01 pm

eagles94 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
eagles94 wrote:
Do UA Crews based in London get provided with accommodation or hotac? Or do they have to pay the extortionate London prices for themselves.


Why would they? Does UA pay for EWR/SFO rooms for EWR/SFO-based crew?


Well I didn’t think the process of someone transferring from a US Base would be as simple as just packing up and moving over


Actually it is pretty much as simple as just packing up and moving over. There are out-of-the-norm cases, like if UA closes a domicile and the F/A chooses to accept an involuntary transfer (versus resigning) there are some temporary provisions to provide assistance at the new domicile, but for anybody hired in, or voluntarily transferring to, a foreign domicile UA has no role in providing accommodations.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4708
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: United Airlines in London

Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:50 pm

quiet1 wrote:
eagles94 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

Why would they? Does UA pay for EWR/SFO rooms for EWR/SFO-based crew?


Well I didn’t think the process of someone transferring from a US Base would be as simple as just packing up and moving over


Actually it is pretty much as simple as just packing up and moving over. There are out-of-the-norm cases, like if UA closes a domicile and the F/A chooses to accept an involuntary transfer (versus resigning) there are some temporary provisions to provide assistance at the new domicile, but for anybody hired in, or voluntarily transferring to, a foreign domicile UA has no role in providing accommodations.


So, no UK working visa is needed? They just commute there and fly out of LHR then? I know this is ancient history by now, but when Pan Am transferred a US-based flight attendant to its London base, they needed a UK work visa (my Godmother was in the SFO base in the mid 70s and transferred there).
Keep calm and wash your hands.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos