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F737NG
Topic Author
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:12 pm

Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:45 pm

Per BBC news, AA729 and AA787 both diverted into DUB earlier today due to medical emergencies.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50128483

The 729 flight divert was caused by a 'chemical spillage'.
Despite initial re-scheduling of a 15:00 departure, 729 doesn't appear to have left DUB as yet.

If "two crew members and one passenger went to hospital for evaluation", how can AA729 operate without a full compliment of crew? Does AA over-provide the 1:50 cabin crew requirement for TATL flights?
 
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Rookie87
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:11 pm

AA729 can't leave without minimum 8 crew. AA schedules 9 on there and most likely reassigned FAs in DUB, (assumption).
 
dopplerd
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:30 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:19 pm

This article actually uses a photo of an American A330 in a story about an American A330! It is a -200 instead of a -300 but I'm willing to give them a pass on that point.
 
BY1881
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:54 am

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:27 pm

F737NG wrote:
Per BBC news, AA729 and AA787 both diverted into DUB earlier today due to medical emergencies.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50128483

The 729 flight divert was caused by a 'chemical spillage'.
Despite initial re-scheduling of a 15:00 departure, 729 doesn't appear to have left DUB as yet.

If "two crew members and one passenger went to hospital for evaluation", how can AA729 operate without a full compliment of crew? Does AA over-provide the 1:50 cabin crew requirement for TATL flights?


In exceptional circumstances you operate 1 under legal minimum crew compliment when down route. How ever you need to have 1 crew member per 50 passengers so potentially you might need to offload some passengers.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:42 pm

BY1881 wrote:
F737NG wrote:
Per BBC news, AA729 and AA787 both diverted into DUB earlier today due to medical emergencies.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50128483

The 729 flight divert was caused by a 'chemical spillage'.
Despite initial re-scheduling of a 15:00 departure, 729 doesn't appear to have left DUB as yet.

If "two crew members and one passenger went to hospital for evaluation", how can AA729 operate without a full compliment of crew? Does AA over-provide the 1:50 cabin crew requirement for TATL flights?


In exceptional circumstances you operate 1 under legal minimum crew compliment when down route. How ever you need to have 1 crew member per 50 passengers so potentially you might need to offload some passengers.


It’s based on seats not passengers
 
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readytotaxi
Posts: 6709
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:57 pm

CNN are reporting that it was a spill in the galley.

Image

Why are they using something that strong?
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7989
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:05 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
CNN are reporting that it was a spill in the galley.
Why are they using something that strong?


Maybe they weren't. Ever sit near the galley when an FA is working on her nails? The smell is awful. Perhaps an FA had some chemicals for her personal use, or some such.
 
PI4EVR
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:29 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:11 pm

AA729 will remain overnight in DUB and continue to PHL tomorrow morning. AA787 in now airborne and enroute to CLT w/an ETA a bit after 8pm.
 
BY1881
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:54 am

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:30 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
BY1881 wrote:
F737NG wrote:
Per BBC news, AA729 and AA787 both diverted into DUB earlier today due to medical emergencies.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50128483

The 729 flight divert was caused by a 'chemical spillage'.
Despite initial re-scheduling of a 15:00 departure, 729 doesn't appear to have left DUB as yet.

If "two crew members and one passenger went to hospital for evaluation", how can AA729 operate without a full compliment of crew? Does AA over-provide the 1:50 cabin crew requirement for TATL flights?


In exceptional circumstances you operate 1 under legal minimum crew compliment when down route. How ever you need to have 1 crew member per 50 passengers so potentially you might need to offload some passengers.


It’s based on seats not passengers


I didn’t take into account the differences between the FAA and CAA.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1300
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:57 pm

ABC News reported that the fumes came from a cleaning product, left onboard by the cleaning crew at LHR and it spilled.
 
LimaFoxTango
Posts: 912
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:33 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:07 pm

wjcandee wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
CNN are reporting that it was a spill in the galley.
Why are they using something that strong?


Maybe they weren't. Ever sit near the galley when an FA is working on her nails? The smell is awful. Perhaps an FA had some chemicals for her personal use, or some such.


I'd like to think FA's know better than to use nail polish on an aircraft.
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7989
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:55 am

I would too. But unless they're in there sniffing it, they're using it (and/or remover).
 
robt760
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:08 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:58 am

The “chemical” was Ammonia.
 
acentauri
Posts: 267
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:35 am

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:30 am

robt760 wrote:
The “chemical” was Ammonia.

That'll surely do it. Funny they are even permitted to use ammonia, or an ammonia based cleaner inside of an inflight commercial aircraft.
 
OSL777FLYER
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:11 am

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:06 am

Although you need a 1:50 cabin crew. Not necessarily all doors have to be "manned". I have flown on flights where they have told me that they were short staffed and one door was "unattended" in other words, passengers were given extra briefings.This particular incident was on a B777-300ER.

HOWEVER, this is only allowed if the aircraft is returning to its base. e.g. if an AA flight is returning to the U.S from Europe, they would be allowed to do this.

ALSO, the 1:50 rule can be broken, if the flight is not full, passengers will then be moved to other parts of the aircraft. This also applies to return to base flights only.

Example: an A320 from BA (not that the airline matters) with 130 passengers on board is flying LHR- MAD-LHR, In MAD, a cabin crew member becomes ill and is unable to fly the return leg, the aircraft can still do so with 3 instead of 4 cabin crew members, but passengers will then be moved away from e.g one of the exits at the back.
 
jersey777
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:37 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:58 am

wjcandee wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
CNN are reporting that it was a spill in the galley.
Why are they using something that strong?


Maybe they weren't. Ever sit near the galley when an FA is working on her nails? The smell is awful. Perhaps an FA had some chemicals for her personal use, or some such.


Flight Attendants do not use nail polish on the plane. It is a volatile liquid and prohibited. If a passenger uses nail polish we are required to asked them to stop.
 
twicearound
Posts: 141
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:05 am

jersey777 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
readytotaxi wrote:
CNN are reporting that it was a spill in the galley.
Why are they using something that strong?


Maybe they weren't. Ever sit near the galley when an FA is working on her nails? The smell is awful. Perhaps an FA had some chemicals for her personal use, or some such.


Flight Attendants do not use nail polish on the plane. It is a volatile liquid and prohibited. If a passenger uses nail polish we are required to asked them to stop.


Ignore him, he's a notorious FA basher
 
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F737NG
Topic Author
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:12 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:24 pm

dopplerd wrote:
This article actually uses a photo of an American A330 in a story about an American A330! It is a -200 instead of a -300 but I'm willing to give them a pass on that point.


I'm almost impressed!


acentauri wrote:
robt760 wrote:
The “chemical” was Ammonia.

That'll surely do it. Funny they are even permitted to use ammonia, or an ammonia based cleaner inside of an inflight commercial aircraft.


Yep, that's rather noxious stuff.
Easy to forget some of their materials on-board, but it's going to result in a b*****ing for those cleaners.


OSL777FLYER wrote:
Although you need a 1:50 cabin crew. Not necessarily all doors have to be "manned". I have flown on flights where they have told me that they were short staffed and one door was "unattended" in other words, passengers were given extra briefings.This particular incident was on a B777-300ER.

HOWEVER, this is only allowed if the aircraft is returning to its base. e.g. if an AA flight is returning to the U.S from Europe, they would be allowed to do this.

ALSO, the 1:50 rule can be broken, if the flight is not full, passengers will then be moved to other parts of the aircraft. This also applies to return to base flights only.

Example: an A320 from BA (not that the airline matters) with 130 passengers on board is flying LHR- MAD-LHR, In MAD, a cabin crew member becomes ill and is unable to fly the return leg, the aircraft can still do so with 3 instead of 4 cabin crew members, but passengers will then be moved away from e.g one of the exits at the back.


Yet AA 729 had two crew members who took ill and required hospital observation. I was a little surprised that AA was still going to operate the flight later in the day.
In theory, they must've had crew over and above the legal limit, if they could lose two cabin crew and still thought they would be in a position where they were legal to fly.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7989
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:54 pm

twicearound wrote:
Ignore him, he's a notorious FA basher


OMG, now THAT'S funny!
 
OSL777FLYER
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:11 am

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:26 pm

F737NG wrote:
dopplerd wrote:
This article actually uses a photo of an American A330 in a story about an American A330! It is a -200 instead of a -300 but I'm willing to give them a pass on that point.


I'm almost impressed!


acentauri wrote:
robt760 wrote:
The “chemical” was Ammonia.

That'll surely do it. Funny they are even permitted to use ammonia, or an ammonia based cleaner inside of an inflight commercial aircraft.


Yep, that's rather noxious stuff.
Easy to forget some of their materials on-board, but it's going to result in a b*****ing for those cleaners.


OSL777FLYER wrote:
Although you need a 1:50 cabin crew. Not necessarily all doors have to be "manned". I have flown on flights where they have told me that they were short staffed and one door was "unattended" in other words, passengers were given extra briefings.This particular incident was on a B777-300ER.

HOWEVER, this is only allowed if the aircraft is returning to its base. e.g. if an AA flight is returning to the U.S from Europe, they would be allowed to do this.

ALSO, the 1:50 rule can be broken, if the flight is not full, passengers will then be moved to other parts of the aircraft. This also applies to return to base flights only.

Example: an A320 from BA (not that the airline matters) with 130 passengers on board is flying LHR- MAD-LHR, In MAD, a cabin crew member becomes ill and is unable to fly the return leg, the aircraft can still do so with 3 instead of 4 cabin crew members, but passengers will then be moved away from e.g one of the exits at the back.


Yet AA 729 had two crew members who took ill and required hospital observation. I was a little surprised that AA was still going to operate the flight later in the day.
In theory, they must've had crew over and above the legal limit, if they could lose two cabin crew and still thought they would be in a position where they were legal to fly.


On long-haul flights, they are usually always well over the legal limit due to more attention being required in business and first class.

I was on an LH flight from FRA-DXB in January and they had 15 cabin crew onboard. And as we all know, a B747-400 does not seat 750 people.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:33 am

The BBC is challenging the story of AA for the diversion citing anonymous sources that the aircraft was actually in bad shape and that the reason was a broken APU and that AA knew of the broken APU days before.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50461302
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:09 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
The BBC is challenging the story of AA for the diversion citing anonymous sources that the aircraft was actually in bad shape and that the reason was a broken APU and that AA knew of the broken APU days before.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50461302

That would be false, under ETOPS you can’t dispatch the plane with an inop APU.

Plane in bad shape? A little dramatic I would say.
 
ilovepabst
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:19 am

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:48 pm

[*]
Phoenix757767 wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
The BBC is challenging the story of AA for the diversion citing anonymous sources that the aircraft was actually in bad shape and that the reason was a broken APU and that AA knew of the broken APU days before.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50461302

That would be false, under ETOPS you can’t dispatch the plane with an inop APU.

Plane in bad shape? A little dramatic I would say.

Can absolutely be dispatched with APU inop for ETOPS provided other items aren't deferred such as IDGs.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:52 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
The BBC is challenging the story of AA for the diversion citing anonymous sources that the aircraft was actually in bad shape and that the reason was a broken APU and that AA knew of the broken APU days before.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50461302

That would be false, under ETOPS you can’t dispatch the plane with an inop APU.

Plane in bad shape? A little dramatic I would say.


I’m not going to challenge you because of your experience and the MEL is aircraft and airline specific. However you cannot make blanket statements like “you cannot dispatch with an INOP APU on ETOPS flights..”. There are restrictions for sure but you can dispatch ETOPS with an INOP APU. For example United 787s are restricted to ETOPS 180.
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:10 pm

“ 'No connection'
American Airlines claims the odour, which caused two cabin crew to pass out, "was not related to the APU" because the unit was "not operational during this time period and did not operate during this flight".

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50472901
 
apodino
Posts: 3597
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:30 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
The BBC is challenging the story of AA for the diversion citing anonymous sources that the aircraft was actually in bad shape and that the reason was a broken APU and that AA knew of the broken APU days before.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50461302

That would be false, under ETOPS you can’t dispatch the plane with an inop APU.

Plane in bad shape? A little dramatic I would say.

An A330 can be absolutely be dispatched under ETOPS 120 with an inoperable APU and it happens all the time. A 777 or 787 has more electrical and pneumatic redundancies so they can still go ETOPS 180 even with an inoperable APU. I call BS on this story, as it’s another Aviation article written by someone who knows nothing about aviation looking for clicks.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 1043
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:41 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
I’m not going to challenge you because of your experience...


What experience is that?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:47 pm

NWAESC wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
I’m not going to challenge you because of your experience...


What experience is that?


I have no reason to doubt that he is a mechanic for AA.
 
NWAESC
Posts: 1043
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:50 pm

I see. Well, maybe he/she will weigh in and confirm/deny that.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2942
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:56 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
I’m not going to challenge you because of your experience...


What experience is that?


I have no reason to doubt that he is a mechanic for AA.


obviously not working on APU's or any other critical component.
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:18 pm

At LUS we didn’t dispatch the A330 on an ETOPS flight with an inop APU. But they did have the option.

“ No IAW with MEL 49-1. “do not operate on ETOPS flights in excess of 120 min”.
I’m checking on the oil consumption numbers now
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:57 pm

At AA

“ The GPM states that aircraft may not be dispatched for ETOPS flights if an engine/APU exceeds the “high oil consumption limits” as stated in GPM 08-08; table 08,08-2. For the A330 APU that’s 0.60 pints per hour”
 
NWAESC
Posts: 1043
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:20 pm

Are you an AMT? Just curious.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
BA777FO
Posts: 370
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:23 pm

Wow. Maybe this is why AA is so keen to dump the A330s in favour of 787s and 777s which can still do 180 minutes ETOPS with an APU u/s.

That said, if the APU was u/s, it wouldn't have diverted, it simply wouldn't have dispatched (if the AA MEL states that it cannot). If a problem developed with the APU in flight then the crew would consult/run the appropriate checklist. Aside from an APU fire that won't extinguish I can't imagine the A330 would require a land at nearest suitable for any other reason. Unless you lose engine generator and your APU is inop but then it really isn't your lucky day!
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:35 pm

BA777FO wrote:
Wow. Maybe this is why AA is so keen to dump the A330s in favour of 787s and 777s which can still do 180 minutes ETOPS with an APU u/s.

That said, if the APU was u/s, it wouldn't have diverted, it simply wouldn't have dispatched (if the AA MEL states that it cannot). If a problem developed with the APU in flight then the crew would consult/run the appropriate checklist. Aside from an APU fire that won't extinguish I can't imagine the A330 would require a land at nearest suitable for any other reason. Unless you lose engine generator and your APU is inop but then it really isn't your lucky day!

They aren’t dumping the 330s, the 333 retirements were pushed back and there are no plans to retire the 332
 
NWAESC
Posts: 1043
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:20 pm

Phoenix757767 wrote:
At AA

“ The GPM states that aircraft may not be dispatched for ETOPS flights if an engine/APU exceeds the “high oil consumption limits” as stated in GPM 08-08; table 08,08-2. For the A330 APU that’s 0.60 pints per hour”


Who are you quoting here?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:21 am

NWAESC wrote:
Phoenix757767 wrote:
At AA

“ The GPM states that aircraft may not be dispatched for ETOPS flights if an engine/APU exceeds the “high oil consumption limits” as stated in GPM 08-08; table 08,08-2. For the A330 APU that’s 0.60 pints per hour”


Who are you quoting here?

AA’s A330 maintenance manual ETOPS Procedure
 
NWAESC
Posts: 1043
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:30 am

Thanks. How’d you access it?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
alpine1989
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:13 am

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:46 am

That is simply bloody rubbish. An A330 can absolutely be dispatched 120 ETOPS with inop APU per the MEL. It is amazing the folks that make statements on this website with no operational knowledge whatsoever. Read the bloody MEL folks.
 
Phoenix757767
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Two AA flights diverted to Dublin

Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:57 am

alpine1989 wrote:
That is simply bloody rubbish. An A330 can absolutely be dispatched 120 ETOPS with inop APU per the MEL. It is amazing the folks that make statements on this website with no operational knowledge whatsoever. Read the bloody MEL folks.

They can dispatch it company policy is more strict than the MEL.

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