ScottB
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:36 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
If an airline accelerates deliveries, they need the frames.

Acceleration, 2 frames moved forward to 2020 and 1 frame forward to 2021.
Addition, 2 additional frames leased, 1 arriving in 2020 and 1 in 2021.

The opportunistic play, may refer to price, but combined with near term needs, I would count it an opportunistic play in regards to timing.


Delta is in the very advantageous position of having a large fleet of 767s which can continue to soldier on or see accelerated replacement if aircraft manufacturers and lessors are willing to offer the right price. I suspect that Airbus made it worth DL's while to accelerate those three aircraft in order to fill near-term gaps in the backlog -- but that doesn't necessary bode well for the long-term health of the program. It should be concerning that near-in production slots are available given that the first delivery occurred less than a year ago and the global economic environment (and consequently, the demand for air travel) remains quite robust.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:58 pm

Devilfish wrote:
b777900 wrote:
Could they add LAX -HNL-MNL? ON the 339.

They could...the question is if they would?


x1234 wrote:
I've said this all along. Tag flights are costly. If they have Philippine traveler loyalty they should can the ICN-MNL flight and launch SEA-MNL instead.

Would the route be sustainable minus the ICN stop?

x1234 wrote:
MNL is only slightly south of HKG. The A330neo can definitely make it. Come on DL give PR some competition!

SEA-MNL on the A339 in DL's configuration might be stretching it.....

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=SEA-MNL&MS=wls&DU=nm

PR doesn't do SEA though.

LDRA wrote:
It is the 245T MTOW variant they are leasing right? 251T is not ready yet

The first 251T A339 from St Nazaire just got delivered to Airbus. Is this frame for DL :?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-KHtkoN-w0


I would guess that frame is for testing to begin with and not the first 251 t to be delivered.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:00 pm

wjcandee wrote:
ScottB wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:
My understanding is the lessor really needed to place the frames and offered a very good price.


I was thinking this sounds like a mixed blessing for the A330neo program. It's good to see Delta taking two more, but they're from a lessor, on relatively short notice, and Delta isn't known for making bad deals for itself.


DL said it was an "opportunistic" deal, which supports your assumption and the idea that there was a good price offered. The lessor's overall cash flow is aided, they no longer have placement risk, and the bookkeeping on this particular aircraft purchase will now reflect an income stream (lease payments) starting at delivery rather than some period down the road. The lease payments will of course be lower than they might have hoped for, but the risk of default by the lessee is near-nil, another important factor in the lessor's own creditworthiness and ability to borrow at favorable rates.

DL is notorious for their pricing power. i have no doubt the leasing company will make a profit. I also have no doubt DL received a fine offer.

I'd bet the terms were set prior to the LATAM announcement.

It is odd these A339 were not placed earlier.

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Waterbomber2
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:21 pm

ScottB wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
If an airline accelerates deliveries, they need the frames.

Acceleration, 2 frames moved forward to 2020 and 1 frame forward to 2021.
Addition, 2 additional frames leased, 1 arriving in 2020 and 1 in 2021.

The opportunistic play, may refer to price, but combined with near term needs, I would count it an opportunistic play in regards to timing.


Delta is in the very advantageous position of having a large fleet of 767s which can continue to soldier on or see accelerated replacement if aircraft manufacturers and lessors are willing to offer the right price. I suspect that Airbus made it worth DL's while to accelerate those three aircraft in order to fill near-term gaps in the backlog -- but that doesn't necessary bode well for the long-term health of the program. It should be concerning that near-in production slots are available given that the first delivery occurred less than a year ago and the global economic environment (and consequently, the demand for air travel) remains quite robust.


I think that Airbus should be producing 120 A330neos per month, white tails or not.
Having aircraft with high standardisation ready to be configured to customer specs is a huge selling point in a market riddled with design issues on the latest generation aircraft, as well as operators unwilling to commit to large orders long in advance. Operators that have aging fleets of B767 and A330's but no aircraft lined up to replace them can better react to changing operating environments when they can buy off-the-shelf.
With the B777X and potential for program delays, interim lift could be needed for those as well.
It's a bit late now, but with the MAX situation you never know that it could be years before they can fly again. The second Boeing announces a production cut or suspension, Airbus should consider the opportunities for the A330neo program. Not that the likes of Southwest or Ryanair are going to buy them, but the legacies may have to shift capacity.
 
VictorKilo
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:24 pm

This deal could also drive domestic growth instead of international growth - or these birds could free up 763 to fly in the LATAM JV.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:29 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
ScottB wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
If an airline accelerates deliveries, they need the frames.

Acceleration, 2 frames moved forward to 2020 and 1 frame forward to 2021.
Addition, 2 additional frames leased, 1 arriving in 2020 and 1 in 2021.

The opportunistic play, may refer to price, but combined with near term needs, I would count it an opportunistic play in regards to timing.


Delta is in the very advantageous position of having a large fleet of 767s which can continue to soldier on or see accelerated replacement if aircraft manufacturers and lessors are willing to offer the right price. I suspect that Airbus made it worth DL's while to accelerate those three aircraft in order to fill near-term gaps in the backlog -- but that doesn't necessary bode well for the long-term health of the program. It should be concerning that near-in production slots are available given that the first delivery occurred less than a year ago and the global economic environment (and consequently, the demand for air travel) remains quite robust.


I think that Airbus should be producing 120 A330neos per month, white tails or not.
Having aircraft with high standardisation ready to be configured to customer specs is a huge selling point in a market riddled with design issues on the latest generation aircraft, as well as operators unwilling to commit to large orders long in advance. Operators that have aging fleets of B767 and A330's but no aircraft lined up to replace them can better react to changing operating environments when they can buy off-the-shelf.
With the B777X and potential for program delays, interim lift could be needed for those as well.
It's a bit late now, but with the MAX situation you never know that it could be years before they can fly again. The second Boeing announces a production cut or suspension, Airbus should consider the opportunities for the A330neo program. Not that the likes of Southwest or Ryanair are going to buy them, but the legacies may have to shift capacity.


120 a month? I hope you’re skeptical otherwise I want what you’ve been smoking.
 
Justapax
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:33 pm

ScottB wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:
My understanding is the lessor really needed to place the frames and offered a very good price.

Delta isn't known for making bad deals for itself.


That is the understatement of the century!

Delta does a good job of getting good deals
 
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:41 pm

IWMBH wrote:
120 a month? I hope you’re skeptical otherwise I want what you’ve been smoking.

If you want to resolve the mystery, just google that poster's A380 posts....
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tealnz
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:12 pm

From FlightGlobal:

These additions to the fleet, as well as accelerated deliveries from Airbus, will bring the total number of A330neo aircraft in Delta’s fleet to 42 by early 2021.

Hard to avoid the conclusion that Delta are happy with both the performance and economics on routes for which the 339 is a good match. Perhaps the 339 is more competitive with the 787 than some on a.net have claimed.

A few comments up thread suggest Delta decision to take the additional frames was mainly about price. No doubt ALC offered keen pricing. Not sure that tells us anything about competitiveness of the 339: we have seen plenty of cases where Boeing had clearly sharpened their pencil to clinch a 787 sale.
 
airzona11
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:19 pm

tealnz wrote:
From FlightGlobal:

These additions to the fleet, as well as accelerated deliveries from Airbus, will bring the total number of A330neo aircraft in Delta’s fleet to 42 by early 2021.

Hard to avoid the conclusion that Delta are happy with both the performance and economics on routes for which the 339 is a good match. Perhaps the 339 is more competitive with the 787 than some on a.net have claimed.

A few comments up thread suggest Delta decision to take the additional frames was mainly about price. No doubt ALC offered keen pricing. Not sure that tells us anything about competitiveness of the 339: we have seen plenty of cases where Boeing had clearly sharpened their pencil to clinch a 787 sale.


DLs config has these A339s with more Y seats than a 787 could give them. DL has a lower premium cabin mix so I think they have less exposure to a downturn in the economy. A highly efficient aircraft with that CASM is awesome to their fleet.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:35 pm

tealnz wrote:
From FlightGlobal:

These additions to the fleet, as well as accelerated deliveries from Airbus, will bring the total number of A330neo aircraft in Delta’s fleet to 42 by early 2021.



Would somebody care to walk through that math? 42 is a long way from today's 4 in the fleet. IIRC, they don't even have that many total on order through 2025.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:41 pm

With DL getting so many A339s (counting the two being sourced from the ALC order book)...are there any plans to reconfigure the A333s into the A339 configuration?

As for A330ceos...there are currently 11 A332s (230t likely) and 31 A333s (21 230t or 233t and 10 242t). At least JFK-TLV is a route that only sees the 242t variant.
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Alias1024
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:48 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
tealnz wrote:
From FlightGlobal:

These additions to the fleet, as well as accelerated deliveries from Airbus, will bring the total number of A330neo aircraft in Delta’s fleet to 42 by early 2021.



Would somebody care to walk through that math? 42 is a long way from today's 4 in the fleet. IIRC, they don't even have that many total on order through 2025.


They don’t. The two announced today make 37 339s. I’m pretty sure 42 is the number of A330CEOs in the DL fleet.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:18 am

tealnz wrote:
From FlightGlobal:

These additions to the fleet, as well as accelerated deliveries from Airbus, will bring the total number of A330neo aircraft in Delta’s fleet to 42 by early 2021.

Hard to avoid the conclusion that Delta are happy with both the performance and economics on routes for which the 339 is a good match. Perhaps the 339 is more competitive with the 787 than some on a.net have claimed.

A few comments up thread suggest Delta decision to take the additional frames was mainly about price. No doubt ALC offered keen pricing. Not sure that tells us anything about competitiveness of the 339: we have seen plenty of cases where Boeing had clearly sharpened their pencil to clinch a 787 sale.


Not much to explain. DL has a long history with cheap orphaned aircraft. MD-90, 717, L-1011 (toward the end at least). Delta prefers the lower acquisition cost.
 
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:21 am

Can the 339neo cover the current missions that the 772's are used on? With such a small 777 fleet I would have to think they may be exiting the fleet sooner than we think.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:51 am

ScottB wrote:
I was thinking this sounds like a mixed blessing for the A330neo program. It's good to see Delta taking two more, but they're from a lessor, on relatively short notice, and Delta isn't known for making bad deals for itself.


It's certainly plausible that it's a mixed bag for the program, and it's what I would lean towards. However it's also plausible that the price isn't all that great, but DL is needing capacity soon to replace or expand. For example, let's say the aging 763s are becoming a pricey endeavor, and DL has to take what they can get.

StTim wrote:
Delta obviously happy with the performance

Jetport wrote:
Delta appears to be happy with the performance, even happier with the pricing. Everybody can’t get Delta’s pricing on A330 neos or Airbus will not make any money. Delta is now to the A330 neo what Emirates was to the A380, not a good omen.


Certainly possible, but DL has hitched their wagon to Airbus, so even if they aren't all that happy with the performance or price, the alternative of going to Boeing at this stage isn't realistic.
 
tealnz
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:00 am

Alias1024 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
tealnz wrote:
From FlightGlobal:




Would somebody care to walk through that math? 42 is a long way from today's 4 in the fleet. IIRC, they don't even have that many total on order through 2025.


They don’t. The two announced today make 37 339s. I’m pretty sure 42 is the number of A330CEOs in the DL fleet.

I shoulda known better...

Jetport wrote:
Delta appears to be happy with the performance, even happier with the pricing. Everybody can’t get Delta’s pricing on A330 neos or Airbus will not make any money. Delta is now to the A330 neo what Emirates was to the A380, not a good omen.

Profit numbers say Delta know what they're doing. And they come on the back of experience with a big fleet of A330ceo. I'd give them the benefit of the doubt on this.
 
flyabr
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:21 am

behramjee wrote:
So in total this increases DL's A339 commitment to 37 units...am I right?

yes... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_fleet
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:24 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Certainly possible, but DL has hitched their wagon to Airbus, so even if they aren't all that happy with the performance or price, the alternative of going to Boeing at this stage isn't realistic.
[/quote]

Agreed. I only see only one opportunity in the somewhat near future for DL and Boeing to have a come to Jesus meeting. The A320 fleet will need to be replaced and Boeing could use another big Max (or whatever they end up calling it) order. They would get a very good price and faster delivery terms on the 737-8. I'm sure Airbus would give DL a decent price on the A320neo but it would be a long time before they could take delivery of them due to the long backlog. If DL goes for the A320neo then we will know the relationship with Boeing is buried in the past.
 
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:27 am

tealnz wrote:
From FlightGlobal:

These additions to the fleet, as well as accelerated deliveries from Airbus, will bring the total number of A330neo aircraft in Delta’s fleet to 42 by early 2021.

Hard to avoid the conclusion that Delta are happy with both the performance and economics on routes for which the 339 is a good match. Perhaps the 339 is more competitive with the 787 than some on a.net have claimed.

A few comments up thread suggest Delta decision to take the additional frames was mainly about price. No doubt ALC offered keen pricing. Not sure that tells us anything about competitiveness of the 339: we have seen plenty of cases where Boeing had clearly sharpened their pencil to clinch a 787 sale.

Boeing makes excellent profit off the 787. Winning strategic orders is different.

This is Udvar-Hazy accepting low returns. That implies Mr Udvar-Hazy won't order more ALC and GECAS are 'at risk buyers.' The fact a speculative buy was leased at a discount means Mr. Udvar-Hazy misread demand. ALC rents hotel suites at major airshows a month before the actual airshow. Airlines show up early to secure financing. Often, Udvar-Hazy knows of high demand before Airbus or Boeing and was able to realize they could discount less (back when ILFC was the only big Leasing company).

This is analogous to Aircastle and their Embraer E2 order. In that case the leasing company and airframer are competing
for the same orders.

We are currently looking at a slowing of the A330 line. The fact ALC couldn't do better is not a good forward looks indicator.

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FSDan
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:35 am

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Still no idea of any potential routes after PVG/ICN/TYO-SEA ?


SEA-PEK isn't loaded yet, but is very likely to be switched to the 339 in the near future.

I also agree with some others that SEA-TPE seems like a distinct possibility in 2021 when the new SEA FIS facility reopens.
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astuteman
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:35 am

Jetport wrote:
Delta appears to be happy with the performance, even happier with the pricing. Everybody can’t get Delta’s pricing on A330 neos or Airbus will not make any money. Delta is now to the A330 neo what Emirates was to the A380, not a good omen.


Don't think so. There's at least 1 airline out there with a much bigger commitment to the NEO than Delta.

Rgds
 
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:11 am

lightsaber wrote:

We are currently looking at a slowing of the A330 line. The fact ALC couldn't do better is not a good forward looks indicator.

Meanwhile over in the other thread, people are telling us that the proposal to target a 767MAX variant at the freighter market really is about capturing pax sales, with no consideration that Airbus has a product with more market acceptance in the market even before Boeing has a product to offer, and that Airbus may actually not be thriving in this market segment even when it has it all to itself.
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sxf24
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:16 am

astuteman wrote:
Jetport wrote:
Delta appears to be happy with the performance, even happier with the pricing. Everybody can’t get Delta’s pricing on A330 neos or Airbus will not make any money. Delta is now to the A330 neo what Emirates was to the A380, not a good omen.


Don't think so. There's at least 1 airline out there with a much bigger commitment to the NEO than Delta.

Rgds


There’s not at least 1, there is exactly 1: AirAsia.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:46 am

lightsaber wrote:
We are currently looking at a slowing of the A330 line. The fact ALC couldn't do better is not a good forward looks indicator.


As is the 787 line, which is exactly why DL has been conservative in its firm widebody orders. To those a.netters who simply can't understand why DL doesn't have replacements on the books for each of its 767 and 777... here's a good clue.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:01 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
We are currently looking at a slowing of the A330 line. The fact ALC couldn't do better is not a good forward looks indicator.


As is the 787 line, which is exactly why DL has been conservative in its firm widebody orders. To those a.netters who simply can't understand why DL doesn't have replacements on the books for each of its 767 and 777... here's a good clue.


Then wouldn't this be a good time for DL to order more A330neo? If demand is soft then I would think this would be prime time for a good deal. Maybe they will make an announcement soon.
 
NateGreat
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:02 am

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Still no idea of any potential routes after PVG/ICN/TYO-SEA ?

I thought TYO was going A359 in the spring, once it switches over from NRT to HND?
 
jetlanta
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:17 am

MSPNWA wrote:
ScottB wrote:
I was thinking this sounds like a mixed blessing for the A330neo program. It's good to see Delta taking two more, but they're from a lessor, on relatively short notice, and Delta isn't known for making bad deals for itself.


It's certainly plausible that it's a mixed bag for the program, and it's what I would lean towards. However it's also plausible that the price isn't all that great, but DL is needing capacity soon to replace or expand. For example, let's say the aging 763s are becoming a pricey endeavor, and DL has to take what they can get.

StTim wrote:
Delta obviously happy with the performance

Jetport wrote:
Delta appears to be happy with the performance, even happier with the pricing. Everybody can’t get Delta’s pricing on A330 neos or Airbus will not make any money. Delta is now to the A330 neo what Emirates was to the A380, not a good omen.


Certainly possible, but DL has hitched their wagon to Airbus, so even if they aren't all that happy with the performance or price, the alternative of going to Boeing at this stage isn't realistic.


I'm fairly certain that ALC had placed these with another carrier and that deal fell through or carrier collapsed or something, Someone will know.

And oh how everyone forgets that Emirates has also ordered the 330NEO. Airbus has always said they expect the bulk of the NEO orders to come when the CEO start to time out in bulk. The 330NEO will be fine.
 
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:24 am

jetlanta wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
ScottB wrote:
I was thinking this sounds like a mixed blessing for the A330neo program. It's good to see Delta taking two more, but they're from a lessor, on relatively short notice, and Delta isn't known for making bad deals for itself.


It's certainly plausible that it's a mixed bag for the program, and it's what I would lean towards. However it's also plausible that the price isn't all that great, but DL is needing capacity soon to replace or expand. For example, let's say the aging 763s are becoming a pricey endeavor, and DL has to take what they can get.

StTim wrote:
Delta obviously happy with the performance

Jetport wrote:
Delta appears to be happy with the performance, even happier with the pricing. Everybody can’t get Delta’s pricing on A330 neos or Airbus will not make any money. Delta is now to the A330 neo what Emirates was to the A380, not a good omen.


Certainly possible, but DL has hitched their wagon to Airbus, so even if they aren't all that happy with the performance or price, the alternative of going to Boeing at this stage isn't realistic.


I'm fairly certain that ALC had placed these with another carrier and that deal fell through or carrier collapsed or something, Someone will know.

And oh how everyone forgets that Emirates has also ordered the 330NEO. Airbus has always said they expect the bulk of the NEO orders to come when the CEO start to time out in bulk. The 330NEO will be fine.


You can't expect every A330ceo operator will just automatically order the neo. Even small airlines like Hawaiian, who already operate a fleet of A330ceos, decided the 787 was a better fit despite the increased costs of crew and maintenance training. The A330neo largely works for Delta because Delta is a huge airline with a huge tech ops department. Very few airlines in the world enjoy such a luxury. LH Technik is about the only comparable facility.
 
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flee
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:27 am

Looking at DL's fleet, most of its aircraft are of previous generations and they were able to make them work for their business model. They have figured out the economics of their operation and know what they need to be a sustainable and viable business. All their narrowbodies are of the previous generation(s) and the A359 and A339 are their only current generation widebodies.

It would appear that DL has settled for these two aircraft to gradually replace their fleet of B767/777 as they become due. Their A330 CEO fleet is still young - so won't need replacement for at least another 5-10 years.

So this order adjustment would be one of many to come in the future as DL adjust the fleet to meet with their business demands.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:53 am

lightsaber wrote:
tealnz wrote:
From FlightGlobal:

These additions to the fleet, as well as accelerated deliveries from Airbus, will bring the total number of A330neo aircraft in Delta’s fleet to 42 by early 2021.

Hard to avoid the conclusion that Delta are happy with both the performance and economics on routes for which the 339 is a good match. Perhaps the 339 is more competitive with the 787 than some on a.net have claimed.

A few comments up thread suggest Delta decision to take the additional frames was mainly about price. No doubt ALC offered keen pricing. Not sure that tells us anything about competitiveness of the 339: we have seen plenty of cases where Boeing had clearly sharpened their pencil to clinch a 787 sale.

Boeing makes excellent profit off the 787. Winning strategic orders is different.

This is Udvar-Hazy accepting low returns. That implies Mr Udvar-Hazy won't order more ALC and GECAS are 'at risk buyers.' The fact a speculative buy was leased at a discount means Mr. Udvar-Hazy misread demand. ALC rents hotel suites at major airshows a month before the actual airshow. Airlines show up early to secure financing. Often, Udvar-Hazy knows of high demand before Airbus or Boeing and was able to realize they could discount less (back when ILFC was the only big Leasing company).

This is analogous to Aircastle and their Embraer E2 order. In that case the leasing company and airframer are competing
for the same orders.

We are currently looking at a slowing of the A330 line. The fact ALC couldn't do better is not a good forward looks indicator.

Lightsaber


If ALC is the lessor, you need not worry, you ve got king SUH running the show.
DL is a very low risk customer plus interest rates are low, so this is easy money for SUH.
Plus they most certainly got very deep discounts from Airbus anyway.
Even if they only make 3% margin per annum, you can count on inflation to keep residual value high.
I wouldn't be surprised if DL does more of these kind of A339 deals.

And yes about the A380's potential that's me whining about it all the time.

The A330ceo was coming off the line at more than 120 units per year, and there is no reason to doubt that it can do it again.
Lower production cost and early availability will be crucial in the upcoming fierce battle against the B787. This battle is just starting, so increasing production and decreasing unit cost is crucial, even if at the expense of the backlog.
There will always be a taker for a cheap A339.
 
jagraham
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:44 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
I doubt these aircraft will be used for expansion -- DL is too conservative, and investors wouldn't like that -- but rather to accelerate retirement of older aircraft. Legacy DL took delivery of ~70 widebodies over a 60 month period in the late 1990s/early 2000s, and while the modern airline has more immediate needs (narrowbodies), I doubt it wants to match that pace again.

Regarding the LATAM 350 purchase, I thought the DL network planners said that was a deal made by the financial guys (to close the deal with LATAM), and that they were still evaluating rather to take delivery of these aircraft into the DL fleet (vs. trying to sell them).


DL is out of balance on their JVs. Which they cannot correct without more widebodies. A couple of 767s will retire in the near term, but DL has stated that they are waiting for the 797, and holding off on 767 cabin refreshing.

So far DL has received 10 A330ceos and 4 A339s plus 13 A359s. Only 2 767s have gone into retirement in that time apart from the 16 767 nonERs.

As an aside, according to airfleets, DL now has 913 aircraft in service. Versus 942 for American which includes 24 grounded MAX aircraft. DL has caught up to AA in mainline fleet size.
 
jetlanta
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:00 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
jetlanta wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:

It's certainly plausible that it's a mixed bag for the program, and it's what I would lean towards. However it's also plausible that the price isn't all that great, but DL is needing capacity soon to replace or expand. For example, let's say the aging 763s are becoming a pricey endeavor, and DL has to take what they can get.




Certainly possible, but DL has hitched their wagon to Airbus, so even if they aren't all that happy with the performance or price, the alternative of going to Boeing at this stage isn't realistic.


I'm fairly certain that ALC had placed these with another carrier and that deal fell through or carrier collapsed or something, Someone will know.

And oh how everyone forgets that Emirates has also ordered the 330NEO. Airbus has always said they expect the bulk of the NEO orders to come when the CEO start to time out in bulk. The 330NEO will be fine.


You can't expect every A330ceo operator will just automatically order the neo. Even small airlines like Hawaiian, who already operate a fleet of A330ceos, decided the 787 was a better fit despite the increased costs of crew and maintenance training. The A330neo largely works for Delta because Delta is a huge airline with a huge tech ops department. Very few airlines in the world enjoy such a luxury. LH Technik is about the only comparable facility.


So the argument is that you need a huge tech ops department to operate an airplane that has significant commonality with the most widely operated widebody in the world but you don't need it for the 787? With its composite fuselage and all?

OK.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:06 pm

jetlanta wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
jetlanta wrote:

I'm fairly certain that ALC had placed these with another carrier and that deal fell through or carrier collapsed or something, Someone will know.

And oh how everyone forgets that Emirates has also ordered the 330NEO. Airbus has always said they expect the bulk of the NEO orders to come when the CEO start to time out in bulk. The 330NEO will be fine.


You can't expect every A330ceo operator will just automatically order the neo. Even small airlines like Hawaiian, who already operate a fleet of A330ceos, decided the 787 was a better fit despite the increased costs of crew and maintenance training. The A330neo largely works for Delta because Delta is a huge airline with a huge tech ops department. Very few airlines in the world enjoy such a luxury. LH Technik is about the only comparable facility.


So the argument is that you need a huge tech ops department to operate an airplane that has significant commonality with the most widely operated widebody in the world but you don't need it for the 787? With its composite fuselage and all?

OK.


You think the A330 is the most widely operated widebody aircraft in the world? No.


https://simpleflying.com/boeing-777-now ... 00-orders/

My argument is that Delta's vast maintenance empire is better able to handle boutique type aircraft that were never very popular.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:21 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
You think the A330 is the most widely operated widebody aircraft in the world? No.


No. Most widely operated = operated by largest number of airlines.

The A330 is operated by over 100 airlines while the 777's customer list is just over 60 airlines. The A330 is the most widely operated widebody in the World.
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Revelation
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:45 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
We are currently looking at a slowing of the A330 line. The fact ALC couldn't do better is not a good forward looks indicator.

As is the 787 line, which is exactly why DL has been conservative in its firm widebody orders. To those a.netters who simply can't understand why DL doesn't have replacements on the books for each of its 767 and 777... here's a good clue.

Then wouldn't this be a good time for DL to order more A330neo? If demand is soft then I would think this would be prime time for a good deal. Maybe they will make an announcement soon.

Yet if the market has not yet reached bottom, DL will be buying overpriced leases that run 10-12 years typically.

Most people think there is a widebody glut and a coming recession to factor in to future plans.

To me this suggests DL got more than just an attractive price to take these leases, since DL is taking the risk that the market will go even lower moving forward.

As noted above, the fact that SUH had to farm out these leases to DL says the market is already below where SUH thought it would be.
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jetlanta
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:58 pm

scbriml wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
You think the A330 is the most widely operated widebody aircraft in the world? No.


No. Most widely operated = operated by largest number of airlines.

The A330 is operated by over 100 airlines while the 777's customer list is just over 60 airlines. The A330 is the most widely operated widebody in the World.


Exactly.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:05 pm

jetlanta wrote:
scbriml wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
You think the A330 is the most widely operated widebody aircraft in the world? No.


No. Most widely operated = operated by largest number of airlines.

The A330 is operated by over 100 airlines while the 777's customer list is just over 60 airlines. The A330 is the most widely operated widebody in the World.


Exactly.


The Oxford Dictionary supports both interpretations - extensively (in number), and by many people.
 
jetlanta
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:43 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
The Oxford Dictionary supports both interpretations - extensively (in number), and by many people.


Oh FFS.

The A330 has the more operators than any other widebody type by far. That was the point I was making. I can understand the first misinterpretation. It was clarified appropriately. That should have been the end of it.
 
global1
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:44 pm

Delta will shortly begin refurbishing the 767-300 interiors to the match the 767-400.
 
PHLCVGAMTK
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:51 pm

DL is flexing a threefold advantage here.

1) It's using A339s to grow and to replace B763s, unlike most A330neo customers who are presumably mostly using it to replace A330ceos and B772s. B763s are older birds that need replacing soon, unlike A332s, B77As and B77Es that seem like they'll go like the Energizer bunny for the next 5-10 years. And DL's US counterparts with 767s are either buying the 787 (AA) or waiting and praying for the 797 (UA). Only JAL and ANA also have comparable masses of B763s, and their fleet decisions are much different from the US3's; they could select anything from A320s to A350s as replacements and we wouldn't blink an eye.

2) B763s can be disposed of whenever DL wants, by selling the better specimens to Amazon for P2F conversion, at a premium. So DL can pick up any stray cheap A339s that come into the market, without regards to timing.

3) DL has DL's cash flow (citation to many other threads), so whatever expenses it incurs net of 2), can be quickly erased. Arguably, it's in DL's interest to frontload as much expense as possible into the current economic climate, in preparation for an oncoming downswing in the business cycle.

So once again, DL has either the best or the luckiest fleet planners in the business, to be in this position. Although I suppose they're related concepts.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:29 pm

PHLCVGAMTK wrote:
Arguably, it's in DL's interest to frontload as much expense as possible into the current economic climate, in preparation for an oncoming downswing in the business cycle.


That's the 'hurry up and spend the money' argument. There's still long term debt, significant fleet needs, and an underfunded pension program. DL bragged about its ROIC in the last earnings call. You don't achieve a good number without some CAPEX discipline.

I'm wondering what the narrow fleet strategy might be: Perhaps using 339s to replace a few 767s, going all (heavily?) 767s on JFK-LAX/SFO/SEA, DCA-LAX transcons to free up 75S frames for tertiary TATL. Just speculation on my part.
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:34 pm

PHLCVGAMTK wrote:
DL is flexing a threefold advantage here.

1) It's using A339s to grow and to replace B763s, unlike most A330neo customers who are presumably mostly using it to replace A330ceos and B772s. B763s are older birds that need replacing soon, unlike A332s, B77As and B77Es that seem like they'll go like the Energizer bunny for the next 5-10 years. And DL's US counterparts with 767s are either buying the 787 (AA) or waiting and praying for the 797 (UA). Only JAL and ANA also have comparable masses of B763s, and their fleet decisions are much different from the US3's; they could select anything from A320s to A350s as replacements and we wouldn't blink an eye.

2) B763s can be disposed of whenever DL wants, by selling the better specimens to Amazon for P2F conversion, at a premium. So DL can pick up any stray cheap A339s that come into the market, without regards to timing.

3) DL has DL's cash flow (citation to many other threads), so whatever expenses it incurs net of 2), can be quickly erased. Arguably, it's in DL's interest to frontload as much expense as possible into the current economic climate, in preparation for an oncoming downswing in the business cycle.

So once again, DL has either the best or the luckiest fleet planners in the business, to be in this position. Although I suppose they're related concepts.


So a 1999-built DL 77E is newer than a 2010-built JAL 763????

DL's youngest 763's are the same age as their 77E's also.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
jrkmsp
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:29 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
PHLCVGAMTK wrote:
Arguably, it's in DL's interest to frontload as much expense as possible into the current economic climate, in preparation for an oncoming downswing in the business cycle.


That's the 'hurry up and spend the money' argument. There's still long term debt, significant fleet needs, and an underfunded pension program. DL bragged about its ROIC in the last earnings call. You don't achieve a good number without some CAPEX discipline.

I'm wondering what the narrow fleet strategy might be: Perhaps using 339s to replace a few 767s, going all (heavily?) 767s on JFK-LAX/SFO/SEA, DCA-LAX transcons to free up 75S frames for tertiary TATL. Just speculation on my part.


At some point in the next year, the transcons will supposedly start switching to a super premium version of the A321NEO. Delta hasn't announced it officially, but if you talk to anyone who works at Delta on the business or operations side and they'll tell you that's the plan. So we'll see when they start taking deliveries.
 
NateGreat
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:58 pm

jrkmsp wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
PHLCVGAMTK wrote:
Arguably, it's in DL's interest to frontload as much expense as possible into the current economic climate, in preparation for an oncoming downswing in the business cycle.


That's the 'hurry up and spend the money' argument. There's still long term debt, significant fleet needs, and an underfunded pension program. DL bragged about its ROIC in the last earnings call. You don't achieve a good number without some CAPEX discipline.

I'm wondering what the narrow fleet strategy might be: Perhaps using 339s to replace a few 767s, going all (heavily?) 767s on JFK-LAX/SFO/SEA, DCA-LAX transcons to free up 75S frames for tertiary TATL. Just speculation on my part.


At some point in the next year, the transcons will supposedly start switching to a super premium version of the A321NEO. Delta hasn't announced it officially, but if you talk to anyone who works at Delta on the business or operations side and they'll tell you that's the plan. So we'll see when they start taking deliveries.

Any idea what this “super premium” product will be like, and how it will compare to the competitors?
 
majano
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:59 pm

tealnz wrote:
From FlightGlobal:

These additions to the fleet, as well as accelerated deliveries from Airbus, will bring the total number of A330neo aircraft in Delta’s fleet to 42 by early 2021.

Hard to avoid the conclusion that Delta are happy with both the performance and economics on routes for which the 339 is a good match. Perhaps the 339 is more competitive with the 787 than some on a.net have claimed.

The long 787 vs A350 Range thread in Tech-ops contains a brief discussion of the A339 fuel burn (said to be 4.8t to 5t per hour). If true, that's particularly impressive. Delta bulking up its future fleet is not refuting the fuel burn claims, it doesn't matter what gibberish the naysayers can cobble up.
 
777Mech
Posts: 801
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:13 pm

jrkmsp wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
PHLCVGAMTK wrote:
Arguably, it's in DL's interest to frontload as much expense as possible into the current economic climate, in preparation for an oncoming downswing in the business cycle.


That's the 'hurry up and spend the money' argument. There's still long term debt, significant fleet needs, and an underfunded pension program. DL bragged about its ROIC in the last earnings call. You don't achieve a good number without some CAPEX discipline.

I'm wondering what the narrow fleet strategy might be: Perhaps using 339s to replace a few 767s, going all (heavily?) 767s on JFK-LAX/SFO/SEA, DCA-LAX transcons to free up 75S frames for tertiary TATL. Just speculation on my part.


At some point in the next year, the transcons will supposedly start switching to a super premium version of the A321NEO. Delta hasn't announced it officially, but if you talk to anyone who works at Delta on the business or operations side and they'll tell you that's the plan. So we'll see when they start taking deliveries.


I don't know who you're talking to, but they're sadly mistaken. The NEO won't be on property until November, and even then they aren't putting a "super premium" cabin in them. They're already past the design freeze, so it's not going to happen.

The first 20 or so will be ETOPS, so they won't be on transcons, they'll be doing Hawaii runs and limited TATL routes.
 
777Mech
Posts: 801
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:14 pm

jagraham wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
I doubt these aircraft will be used for expansion -- DL is too conservative, and investors wouldn't like that -- but rather to accelerate retirement of older aircraft. Legacy DL took delivery of ~70 widebodies over a 60 month period in the late 1990s/early 2000s, and while the modern airline has more immediate needs (narrowbodies), I doubt it wants to match that pace again.

Regarding the LATAM 350 purchase, I thought the DL network planners said that was a deal made by the financial guys (to close the deal with LATAM), and that they were still evaluating rather to take delivery of these aircraft into the DL fleet (vs. trying to sell them).


DL is out of balance on their JVs. Which they cannot correct without more widebodies. A couple of 767s will retire in the near term, but DL has stated that they are waiting for the 797, and holding off on 767 cabin refreshing.

So far DL has received 10 A330ceos and 4 A339s plus 13 A359s. Only 2 767s have gone into retirement in that time apart from the 16 767 nonERs.

As an aside, according to airfleets, DL now has 913 aircraft in service. Versus 942 for American which includes 24 grounded MAX aircraft. DL has caught up to AA in mainline fleet size.


Can you site a source that DL has stated they are holding off on 763 refurbs? Because that's not the case.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2163
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:18 pm

jrkmsp wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
PHLCVGAMTK wrote:
Arguably, it's in DL's interest to frontload as much expense as possible into the current economic climate, in preparation for an oncoming downswing in the business cycle.


That's the 'hurry up and spend the money' argument. There's still long term debt, significant fleet needs, and an underfunded pension program. DL bragged about its ROIC in the last earnings call. You don't achieve a good number without some CAPEX discipline.

I'm wondering what the narrow fleet strategy might be: Perhaps using 339s to replace a few 767s, going all (heavily?) 767s on JFK-LAX/SFO/SEA, DCA-LAX transcons to free up 75S frames for tertiary TATL. Just speculation on my part.


At some point in the next year, the transcons will supposedly start switching to a super premium version of the A321NEO. Delta hasn't announced it officially, but if you talk to anyone who works at Delta on the business or operations side and they'll tell you that's the plan. So we'll see when they start taking deliveries.


They definitely need more premium seats, but hopefully capacity doesn't drop as it already seems tight, especially close-in.
 
jrkmsp
Posts: 164
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:23 pm

777Mech wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

That's the 'hurry up and spend the money' argument. There's still long term debt, significant fleet needs, and an underfunded pension program. DL bragged about its ROIC in the last earnings call. You don't achieve a good number without some CAPEX discipline.

I'm wondering what the narrow fleet strategy might be: Perhaps using 339s to replace a few 767s, going all (heavily?) 767s on JFK-LAX/SFO/SEA, DCA-LAX transcons to free up 75S frames for tertiary TATL. Just speculation on my part.


At some point in the next year, the transcons will supposedly start switching to a super premium version of the A321NEO. Delta hasn't announced it officially, but if you talk to anyone who works at Delta on the business or operations side and they'll tell you that's the plan. So we'll see when they start taking deliveries.


I don't know who you're talking to, but they're sadly mistaken. The NEO won't be on property until November, and even then they aren't putting a "super premium" cabin in them. They're already past the design freeze, so it's not going to happen.

The first 20 or so will be ETOPS, so they won't be on transcons, they'll be doing Hawaii runs and limited TATL routes.


To be clear, I wasn’t talking about the first batch coming. I was talking about a next batch, at least a year and probably more like two out. But, as I said, it’s just talk and definitely not confirmed.

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