jrkmsp
Posts: 164
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 1:33 am

Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:24 pm

777Mech wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

That's the 'hurry up and spend the money' argument. There's still long term debt, significant fleet needs, and an underfunded pension program. DL bragged about its ROIC in the last earnings call. You don't achieve a good number without some CAPEX discipline.

I'm wondering what the narrow fleet strategy might be: Perhaps using 339s to replace a few 767s, going all (heavily?) 767s on JFK-LAX/SFO/SEA, DCA-LAX transcons to free up 75S frames for tertiary TATL. Just speculation on my part.


At some point in the next year, the transcons will supposedly start switching to a super premium version of the A321NEO. Delta hasn't announced it officially, but if you talk to anyone who works at Delta on the business or operations side and they'll tell you that's the plan. So we'll see when they start taking deliveries.


I don't know who you're talking to, but they're sadly mistaken. The NEO won't be on property until November, and even then they aren't putting a "super premium" cabin in them. They're already past the design freeze, so it's not going to happen.

The first 20 or so will be ETOPS, so they won't be on transcons, they'll be doing Hawaii runs and limited TATL routes.


To be clear, I wasn’t talking about the first batch coming. I was talking about a next batch, at least a year and probably more like two out. But, as I said, it’s just talk and definitely not confirmed.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:54 am

jagraham wrote:
DL is out of balance on their JVs. Which they cannot correct without more widebodies. A couple of 767s will retire in the near term, but DL has stated that they are waiting for the 797, and holding off on 767 cabin refreshing.

So far DL has received 10 A330ceos and 4 A339s plus 13 A359s. Only 2 767s have gone into retirement in that time apart from the 16 767 nonERs.


You keep writing this, but it isn't true. Let's discuss facts:

(a) The (D)ALPA insists "DL is out of balance with [its] JVs," DL disagrees. Until there's a formal agreement, whether voluntary or induced, between DL and the (D)ALPA, DL isn't going to take on additional widebodies for that purpose.

(b) DL is currently scheduled to receive 49 additional A330 and A350 through 2026. That's a fairly aggressive pace. ~70 B763, B764 and B777 were delivered over a 60-month period beginning in 1997, and will be younger than 30-years-old; there's absolutely no need to have replacement orders on the books for aircraft that won't be replaced for nearly a decade.

(c) DL has never stated it's waiting for the 797. Do not confuse PR talk for fact. Reality is, in this political climate, when DL is questioned as to why it's purchasing Airbus... what do you expect them to say? "We have over 200 Boeing 757 and 767 up for replacement, and if Boeing builds the plane at the price we want, the order's theirs to lose" or "We feel Airbus, in terms of price and performance, is the best fit. Deal with it."

(d) Most experts agree it's unlikely Boeing will launch the 797 this generation. It'd cost tens of billions of dollars to develop an aircraft that will have limited appeal compared to the 787 (less planes to sell = higher per unit costs) and cannibalize potential 787 orders, without offering very significant cost savings. In other words... DL isn't going to pay double the price for the 797 compared to the 338, if the 797 only delivers a small operational cost savings.

(e) Most experts agree that Boeing (797) and Airbus (330 and 350) will be offering steep discounts to fill slots in order to maintain current production pacing. Additionally, a large quantity of late-model 330 and 77W are expected to hit the market. DL is an opportunistic purchaser, and the pace it retires older aircraft will likely be determined by the pricing it can get on new (or newer) aircraft.

(f) In the extremely unlikely event DL ordered the 797 as a partial 767 replacement, the first aircraft won't be on property until the new premium cabin is dated, anyway. This won't stop DL from proceeding with 767 upgrades...
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:59 am

jrkmsp wrote:
777Mech wrote:
jrkmsp wrote:

At some point in the next year, the transcons will supposedly start switching to a super premium version of the A321NEO. Delta hasn't announced it officially, but if you talk to anyone who works at Delta on the business or operations side and they'll tell you that's the plan. So we'll see when they start taking deliveries.


I don't know who you're talking to, but they're sadly mistaken. The NEO won't be on property until November, and even then they aren't putting a "super premium" cabin in them. They're already past the design freeze, so it's not going to happen.

The first 20 or so will be ETOPS, so they won't be on transcons, they'll be doing Hawaii runs and limited TATL routes.


To be clear, I wasn’t talking about the first batch coming. I was talking about a next batch, at least a year and probably more like two out. But, as I said, it’s just talk and definitely not confirmed.


Rationally, it's inevitable that the 321 NEO -- likely the long-range version -- will replace the D1-configured 757 sooner than later. Even as the 321 CEO are delivered, average flight time of the 757 continues to decrease. Obviously, in terms of cost savings, the transcon/intercontinental flights are low-hanging fruit. While the D1-configured 757 may solider on within the DL fleet in some capacity for nearly another decade, their days as a transcon/intercontinental machine are likely coming to an end...
 
TTailedTiger
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Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:07 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
jagraham wrote:
DL is out of balance on their JVs. Which they cannot correct without more widebodies. A couple of 767s will retire in the near term, but DL has stated that they are waiting for the 797, and holding off on 767 cabin refreshing.

So far DL has received 10 A330ceos and 4 A339s plus 13 A359s. Only 2 767s have gone into retirement in that time apart from the 16 767 nonERs.


You keep writing this, but it isn't true. Let's discuss facts:

(a) The (D)ALPA insists "DL is out of balance with [its] JVs," DL disagrees. Until there's a formal agreement, whether voluntary or induced, between DL and the (D)ALPA, DL isn't going to take on additional widebodies for that purpose.

(b) DL is currently scheduled to receive 49 additional A330 and A350 through 2026. That's a fairly aggressive pace. ~70 B763, B764 and B777 were delivered over a 60-month period beginning in 1997, and will be younger than 30-years-old; there's absolutely no need to have replacement orders on the books for aircraft that won't be replaced for nearly a decade.

(c) DL has never stated it's waiting for the 797. Do not confuse PR talk for fact. Reality is, in this political climate, when DL is questioned as to why it's purchasing Airbus... what do you expect them to say? "We have over 200 Boeing 757 and 767 up for replacement, and if Boeing builds the plane at the price we want, the order's theirs to lose" or "We feel Airbus, in terms of price and performance, is the best fit. Deal with it."

(d) Most experts agree it's unlikely Boeing will launch the 797 this generation. It'd cost tens of billions of dollars to develop an aircraft that will have limited appeal compared to the 787 (less planes to sell = higher per unit costs) and cannibalize potential 787 orders, without offering very significant cost savings. In other words... DL isn't going to pay double the price for the 797 compared to the 338, if the 797 only delivers a small operational cost savings.

(e) Most experts agree that Boeing (797) and Airbus (330 and 350) will be offering steep discounts to fill slots in order to maintain current production pacing. Additionally, a large quantity of late-model 330 and 77W are expected to hit the market. DL is an opportunistic purchaser, and the pace it retires older aircraft will likely be determined by the pricing it can get on new (or newer) aircraft.

(f) In the extremely unlikely event DL ordered the 797 as a partial 767 replacement, the first aircraft won't be on property until the new premium cabin is dated, anyway. This won't stop DL from proceeding with 767 upgrades...


Please provide sources for all of these experts. You keep saying "most" so I assume you have plenty of examples of these experts. And please also provide their qualifications that make them an expert.
 
NWADTWE16
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:12 am

flee wrote:
All their narrowbodies are of the previous generation(s) and the A359 and A339 are their only current generation widebodies.

.


I'm pretty certain the A220 and A321 are current generation
I haven't been everywhere, but it's on my list!
 
PHLCVGAMTK
Posts: 88
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:13 am

1989worstyear wrote:
So a 1999-built DL 77E is newer than a 2010-built JAL 763????

DL's youngest 763's are the same age as their 77E's also.


Not that it's relevant to the topic at hand, but, maybe? JAL flying domestic on the HND-ITM shuttle can put far more cycles on their 763s since 2010, than any of the US3 flying overseas since 1999. But you have backed your way into my point, which is that Amazon is paying a premium for 763 conversion feedstock because, functionally, there are only major retirement waves underway or imminent at AA and DL. Non US/JP major operators of the 763 are AC (who are just Rougeing them for the time being), and LATAM (who seem to be shying away from fleet recapitalisation right now). Beyond those seven airlines, it's handfuls of frames here and there, no treasure boxes to be found.
 
n7371f
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:26 am

There will be no further upgrades to the 763 fleet. A handful of years ago there was a plan to pull some of them off INTL and reconfigure to a new domestic config as the a/c were replaced by 333NEOs - but that plan was shelved.

The 2 new leases were a fantastic opportunity as the lessor lost WOW Air and the market for the aircraft stinks - other than at DL.

777Mech wrote:
jagraham wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
I doubt these aircraft will be used for expansion -- DL is too conservative, and investors wouldn't like that -- but rather to accelerate retirement of older aircraft. Legacy DL took delivery of ~70 widebodies over a 60 month period in the late 1990s/early 2000s, and while the modern airline has more immediate needs (narrowbodies), I doubt it wants to match that pace again.

Regarding the LATAM 350 purchase, I thought the DL network planners said that was a deal made by the financial guys (to close the deal with LATAM), and that they were still evaluating rather to take delivery of these aircraft into the DL fleet (vs. trying to sell them).


DL is out of balance on their JVs. Which they cannot correct without more widebodies. A couple of 767s will retire in the near term, but DL has stated that they are waiting for the 797, and holding off on 767 cabin refreshing.

So far DL has received 10 A330ceos and 4 A339s plus 13 A359s. Only 2 767s have gone into retirement in that time apart from the 16 767 nonERs.

As an aside, according to airfleets, DL now has 913 aircraft in service. Versus 942 for American which includes 24 grounded MAX aircraft. DL has caught up to AA in mainline fleet size.


Can you site a source that DL has stated they are holding off on 763 refurbs? Because that's not the case.
 
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flee
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:29 am

NWADTWE16 wrote:
flee wrote:
All their narrowbodies are of the previous generation(s) and the A359 and A339 are their only current generation widebodies. .

I'm pretty certain the A220 and A321 are current generation

Oops, my bad! I forgot all about the A220 - but they do not have any A320 family Neos delivered yet.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:09 am

n7371f wrote:
There will be no further upgrades to the 763 fleet. A handful of years ago there was a plan to pull some of them off INTL and reconfigure to a new domestic config as the a/c were replaced by 333NEOs - but that plan was shelved.


Most of the 763 are younger than most a.netters believe, and -- depending on economic conditions and the price of more modern aircraft -- can serve for another decade. 39 of the 54 active 763, or 70% of the fleet type, were delivered between 1997 and 2000. Collectively, these aircraft average ~2.5 years older than the 764, and ~7 years older than the 32 A330 delivered to NW. There is no indication that DL will not be retrofitting (most of) the 763 with the new D1; quite frankly, it would be shocking if they didn't.

And the rumor you're referring to appears to be just that; DL maintained that its 330NEO order was for pure growth, although the aircraft ended up assisting with the accelerated retirement of the 744.

The 2 new leases were a fantastic opportunity as the lessor lost WOW Air and the market for the aircraft stinks - other than at DL.


It wasn't WOW; WOW's 330NEO were to be leased from CIT and Avolon (although it did lease other aircraft from ALC). I haven't bothered to check into it, but if I had to guess, these aircraft may have been destined for XL Airways France.
 
n7371f
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:43 am

There is no indication Delta will be reconfiguring the 763. Wanna split hairs more? I'm looking at the present fleet plan and CapEx right in front of me.

WidebodyPTV wrote:
n7371f wrote:
There will be no further upgrades to the 763 fleet. A handful of years ago there was a plan to pull some of them off INTL and reconfigure to a new domestic config as the a/c were replaced by 333NEOs - but that plan was shelved.


Most of the 763 are younger than most a.netters believe, and -- depending on economic conditions and the price of more modern aircraft -- can serve for another decade. 39 of the 54 active 763, or 70% of the fleet type, were delivered between 1997 and 2000. Collectively, these aircraft average ~2.5 years older than the 764, and ~7 years older than the 32 A330 delivered to NW. There is no indication that DL will not be retrofitting (most of) the 763 with the new D1; quite frankly, it would be shocking if they didn't.

And the rumor you're referring to appears to be just that; DL maintained that its 330NEO order was for pure growth, although the aircraft ended up assisting with the accelerated retirement of the 744.

The 2 new leases were a fantastic opportunity as the lessor lost WOW Air and the market for the aircraft stinks - other than at DL.


It wasn't WOW; WOW's 330NEO were to be leased from CIT and Avolon (although it did lease other aircraft from ALC). I haven't bothered to check into it, but if I had to guess, these aircraft may have been destined for XL Airways France.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:51 am

n7371f wrote:
There is no indication Delta will be reconfiguring the 763. Wanna split hairs more? I'm looking at the present fleet plan and CapEx right in front of me.


Nobody's splitting hairs; DL employees have reported that it's been communicated to them that the 763 will receive an updated D1 cabin. Given that the lion's share of the 763 are likely to operate long-haul services for nearly another decade, this information seems logical/credible. I find it highly unlikely that, five years from now, DL's going to be operating ~40 aircraft that haven't seen a premium cabin upgrade in 15 years. It'd really hurt DL's flexibility in scheduling equipment; no way could a 763 reasonably operate a route for any length of time that DL promotes its D1 product on.

FWIW, I had thought you'd grown up enough to drop the "Richard Anderson and Ed Bastian are my golfing buddies! rhetoric.
 
hkcanadaexpat
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:59 am

[/b]
n7371f wrote:
There is no indication Delta will be reconfiguring the 763. Wanna split hairs more? I'm looking at the present fleet plan and CapEx right in front of me.

You're going to be disappointed. The first 763 to get the refresh enters mods in less than 10 weeks.
 
TTailedTiger
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Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:18 am

n7371f wrote:
There is no indication Delta will be reconfiguring the 763. Wanna split hairs more? I'm looking at the present fleet plan and CapEx right in front of me.


You can read whatever you like but the 763ER will be going in for cabin updates.
 
777Mech
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:34 am

hkcanadaexpat wrote:
[/b]
n7371f wrote:
There is no indication Delta will be reconfiguring the 763. Wanna split hairs more? I'm looking at the present fleet plan and CapEx right in front of me.

You're going to be disappointed. The first 763 to get the refresh enters mods in less than 10 weeks.


And I highly doubt he's looking at the fleet plan, because it is there in black in white. Updated market standards, lavs and the whole deal. 188 is the proto.
 
jumbojet
Topic Author
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:45 am

777Mech wrote:
hkcanadaexpat wrote:
[/b]
n7371f wrote:
There is no indication Delta will be reconfiguring the 763. Wanna split hairs more? I'm looking at the present fleet plan and CapEx right in front of me.

You're going to be disappointed. The first 763 to get the refresh enters mods in less than 10 weeks.


And I highly doubt he's looking at the fleet plan, because it is there in black in white. Updated market standards, lavs and the whole deal. 188 is the proto.


any concrete plans as far as where to put the first bunch of reconfigured 763's? IMO, JFK-LAX needs them really bad since after all, they are competing against two other airlines that have a much better hard J product than the current DL 763.
 
cokepopper
Posts: 499
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:42 pm

If anyone thinks these aircraft are just replacing older 76’s, all you have to do is
Look back to Delta’s recent announcement concerning record hiring for 2020 + recent a/c acquisition announcements. Delta seems to be positioning themselves for larger than normal growth 20-21
 
jagraham
Posts: 948
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:37 pm

777Mech wrote:
jagraham wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
I doubt these aircraft will be used for expansion -- DL is too conservative, and investors wouldn't like that -- but rather to accelerate retirement of older aircraft. Legacy DL took delivery of ~70 widebodies over a 60 month period in the late 1990s/early 2000s, and while the modern airline has more immediate needs (narrowbodies), I doubt it wants to match that pace again.

Regarding the LATAM 350 purchase, I thought the DL network planners said that was a deal made by the financial guys (to close the deal with LATAM), and that they were still evaluating rather to take delivery of these aircraft into the DL fleet (vs. trying to sell them).


DL is out of balance on their JVs. Which they cannot correct without more widebodies. A couple of 767s will retire in the near term, but DL has stated that they are waiting for the 797, and holding off on 767 cabin refreshing.

So far DL has received 10 A330ceos and 4 A339s plus 13 A359s. Only 2 767s have gone into retirement in that time apart from the 16 767 nonERs.

As an aside, according to airfleets, DL now has 913 aircraft in service. Versus 942 for American which includes 24 grounded MAX aircraft. DL has caught up to AA in mainline fleet size.


Can you site a source that DL has stated they are holding off on 763 refurbs? Because that's not the case.



Bloomberg ran the story. I'm out of free articles; I will get it from another computer
 
jagraham
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:55 pm

And as far as rapid expansion goes, DL is opportunistic. The JVs with VS, KE, and AM, and especially LATAM, have strengthened DL in those respective areas well beyond what DL could do by itself. But the principle (which remains the same throughout contracts) is metal neutral. Which is not possible with the current widebody fleet.

Of course DL should have done those JVs. But now after having done so many of them, DL has to either increase DL international flying, or decrease their partners' flying to the US. Guess which one DL is going to do.

P. S. After all those new Airbus planes coming in so far, only 2 763ERs have been retired. Actions speak loud.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 58
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:46 pm

jagraham wrote:
And as far as rapid expansion goes, DL is opportunistic. The JVs with VS, KE, and AM, and especially LATAM, have strengthened DL in those respective areas well beyond what DL could do by itself. But the principle (which remains the same throughout contracts) is metal neutral. Which is not possible with the current widebody fleet.

Of course DL should have done those JVs. But now after having done so many of them, DL has to either increase DL international flying, or decrease their partners' flying to the US. Guess which one DL is going to do.



You're sticking to a false argument. Once again, DL maintains that it is compliant with its JV agreements. While the (D)ALPA is making this the central issue of its current contract negotiations, DL will not plan for additional aircraft until a resolution is reached. More importantly, it's not going to have a material effect -- if ANY effect -- on the widebody fleet. An arbitrator already ruled that DL may now lump Japan & Korean flying together, therefore DL is now within compliance -- and nobody's ever really made an argument on the Atlantic side. The (D)ALPA are focusing on the WestJet & Aeromexico JVs, which obviously is narrowbody flying. Secondly, additional long-haul flying derived from a possible JV with LATAM is likely to be gradual and included in the conservative annual growth projections. The a.net dreams of SLC-EZE and SEA-GRU are just silly.

P. S. After all those new Airbus planes coming in so far, only 2 763ERs have been retired. Actions speak loud.


The A359 replaced the remaining B744, and provided relief for the 777, which were stressed by the decision to accelerate the 744 retirements. Notice how there's operational spares (pural) in each fleet type - what a change from those years, when covering for a downed 744 or 777 meant playing fleet roulette!

The A339 deliveries this year helped DL accelerate the progression of the new D1 cabin. Now that slow season is approaching, there are several B763 scheduled for retirement.

Actions do indeed speak loud.

jagraham wrote:
Bloomberg ran the story. I'm out of free articles; I will get it from another computer


Here's the article you're referring to:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... eet-future

It mentions that DL MAY order the 797, not that DL is holding out for the 797 as you claim. Bastian is simply playing the PR game.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3504
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:27 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
You're sticking to a false argument. Once again, DL maintains that it is compliant with its JV agreements. While the (D)ALPA is making this the central issue of its current contract negotiations, DL will not plan for additional aircraft until a resolution is reached. More importantly, it's not going to have a material effect -- if ANY effect -- on the widebody fleet. An arbitrator already ruled that DL may now lump Japan & Korean flying together, therefore DL is now within compliance -- and nobody's ever really made an argument on the Atlantic side. The (D)ALPA are focusing on the WestJet & Aeromexico JVs, which obviously is narrowbody flying. Secondly, additional long-haul flying derived from a possible JV with LATAM is likely to be gradual and included in the conservative annual growth projections. The a.net dreams of SLC-EZE and SEA-GRU are just silly.

It's not a false argument that DL has been out of compliance with JV agreements, and I'm talking mostly in the Atlantic. That's fact. In the past they simply paid off the pilots, and that pacified the crowd, but that patient sentiment seems to be changing.

However I think the debate is whether these orders have anything to do with JV compliance. Personally I think it's a big stretch. I don't believe DL has desire to grow their capacity just to become compliant as evidenced by years of missing miminums. They seem to be pleased with running on the edge. So I don't see the orders having a connection with JV compliance, but I could be wrong.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:48 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
It's not a false argument that DL has been out of compliance with JV agreements, and I'm talking mostly in the Atlantic. That's fact. In the past they simply paid off the pilots, and that pacified the crowd, but that patient sentiment seems to be changing.

However I think the debate is whether these orders have anything to do with JV compliance. Personally I think it's a big stretch. I don't believe DL has desire to grow their capacity just to become compliant as evidenced by years of missing miminums. They seem to be pleased with running on the edge. So I don't see the orders having a connection with JV compliance, but I could be wrong.


For clarification, I'm not arguing whether DL is or is not out of compliance with its JV, I'm asserting that, at this point, it's hocus pocus to insist that DL needs to order a significant number of additional widebodies to be in compliance of its JV. The (D)ALPA already fought DL on Korean flying and lost, with the arbitrator ruling that DL may lump Japan and Korean flying together to determine compliance. I'd bet that DL feels pretty confident on a ruling in its favor for Atlantic flying, although the (D)ALPA doesn't seem to be arguing it much, anyway, instead focusing its energy on WestJet & Aeromexico (an areaa it'll probably prevail in).

Thus, yes, I believe it's a false argument to say 'DL needs additional widebodies because it's out of compliance with its JV' when one ruling went their way and so may another.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:50 pm

So far I don't find an SEC filing announcing the two leased A339s, nor the acceleration of deliveries from the existing order of 35. That strikes me as odd.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:57 pm

WidebodyPTV wrote:
For clarification, I'm not arguing whether DL is or is not out of compliance with its JV, I'm asserting that, at this point, it's hocus pocus to insist that DL needs to order a significant number of additional widebodies to be in compliance of its JV. The (D)ALPA already fought DL on Korean flying and lost, with the arbitrator ruling that DL may lump Japan and Korean flying together to determine compliance. I'd bet that DL feels pretty confident on a ruling in its favor for Atlantic flying, although the (D)ALPA doesn't seem to be arguing it much, anyway, instead focusing its energy on WestJet & Aeromexico (an areaa it'll probably prevail in).

Thus, yes, I believe it's a false argument to say 'DL needs additional widebodies because it's out of compliance with its JV' when one ruling went their way and so may another.


Okay I see we agree there. But it can't be a false argument when it is a valid argument and theoretically possible. You can certainly disagree with it like I do, but it can't be invalidated.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:38 am

I see that DTW-NGO is still operated by the A332. I would have thought it would be moved to a 359 or freed up 777. But guess not. And a last minute ticket is only $1500. Compared to over $5000 for ICN. Its a most peculiar route that no other airline seems to want to fly from the US. Obviously passenger traffic isn't great. Does DL make a killing on the cargo?
 
777Mech
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Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:47 am

WidebodyPTV wrote:
jagraham wrote:
And as far as rapid expansion goes, DL is opportunistic. The JVs with VS, KE, and AM, and especially LATAM, have strengthened DL in those respective areas well beyond what DL could do by itself. But the principle (which remains the same throughout contracts) is metal neutral. Which is not possible with the current widebody fleet.

Of course DL should have done those JVs. But now after having done so many of them, DL has to either increase DL international flying, or decrease their partners' flying to the US. Guess which one DL is going to do.



You're sticking to a false argument. Once again, DL maintains that it is compliant with its JV agreements. While the (D)ALPA is making this the central issue of its current contract negotiations, DL will not plan for additional aircraft until a resolution is reached. More importantly, it's not going to have a material effect -- if ANY effect -- on the widebody fleet. An arbitrator already ruled that DL may now lump Japan & Korean flying together, therefore DL is now within compliance -- and nobody's ever really made an argument on the Atlantic side. The (D)ALPA are focusing on the WestJet & Aeromexico JVs, which obviously is narrowbody flying. Secondly, additional long-haul flying derived from a possible JV with LATAM is likely to be gradual and included in the conservative annual growth projections. The a.net dreams of SLC-EZE and SEA-GRU are just silly.

P. S. After all those new Airbus planes coming in so far, only 2 763ERs have been retired. Actions speak loud.


The A359 replaced the remaining B744, and provided relief for the 777, which were stressed by the decision to accelerate the 744 retirements. Notice how there's operational spares (pural) in each fleet type - what a change from those years, when covering for a downed 744 or 777 meant playing fleet roulette!

The A339 deliveries this year helped DL accelerate the progression of the new D1 cabin. Now that slow season is approaching, there are several B763 scheduled for retirement.

Actions do indeed speak loud.

jagraham wrote:
Bloomberg ran the story. I'm out of free articles; I will get it from another computer


Here's the article you're referring to:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... eet-future

It mentions that DL MAY order the 797, not that DL is holding out for the 797 as you claim. Bastian is simply playing the PR game.


Which 763s are getting retired in the slow season? Only one will be leaving the fleet through next year.
 
WidebodyPTV
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

Re: Delta Adding 2 More A330-900 NEOS

Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:56 am

777Mech wrote:
WidebodyPTV wrote:
jagraham wrote:
And as far as rapid expansion goes, DL is opportunistic. The JVs with VS, KE, and AM, and especially LATAM, have strengthened DL in those respective areas well beyond what DL could do by itself. But the principle (which remains the same throughout contracts) is metal neutral. Which is not possible with the current widebody fleet.

Of course DL should have done those JVs. But now after having done so many of them, DL has to either increase DL international flying, or decrease their partners' flying to the US. Guess which one DL is going to do.


You're sticking to a false argument. Once again, DL maintains that it is compliant with its JV agreements. While the (D)ALPA is making this the central issue of its current contract negotiations, DL will not plan for additional aircraft until a resolution is reached. More importantly, it's not going to have a material effect -- if ANY effect -- on the widebody fleet. An arbitrator already ruled that DL may now lump Japan & Korean flying together, therefore DL is now within compliance -- and nobody's ever really made an argument on the Atlantic side. The (D)ALPA are focusing on the WestJet & Aeromexico JVs, which obviously is narrowbody flying. Secondly, additional long-haul flying derived from a possible JV with LATAM is likely to be gradual and included in the conservative annual growth projections. The a.net dreams of SLC-EZE and SEA-GRU are just silly.

P. S. After all those new Airbus planes coming in so far, only 2 763ERs have been retired. Actions speak loud.


The A359 replaced the remaining B744, and provided relief for the 777, which were stressed by the decision to accelerate the 744 retirements. Notice how there's operational spares (pural) in each fleet type - what a change from those years, when covering for a downed 744 or 777 meant playing fleet roulette!

The A339 deliveries this year helped DL accelerate the progression of the new D1 cabin. Now that slow season is approaching, there are several B763 scheduled for retirement.

Actions do indeed speak loud.

jagraham wrote:
Bloomberg ran the story. I'm out of free articles; I will get it from another computer


Here's the article you're referring to:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... eet-future

It mentions that DL MAY order the 797, not that DL is holding out for the 797 as you claim. Bastian is simply playing the PR game.


Which 763s are getting retired in the slow season? Only one will be leaving the fleet through next year.


Thanks for the correction, even if condescendingly; it was written on APC that several B763 would be removed from the fleet before next summer - I guess this is inaccurate, although DL’s latest press release mentions that the two additional 339 + accelerate deliveries will enable it to accelerate retirement of older aircraft (plus growth), so I expect that to change.

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