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Amiga500
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Re: Spirit Airlines to announce major Airbus order

Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:19 pm

ethernal wrote:
You're right, there is absolutely no logical reason to fly an A319 over an A320.. well, except for the fact that some routes just can't fill 180 seats every day, the A320 needs an extra flight attendant, and there are some routes/airports that may benefit from the operational performance of an A319 over an A320.


Routes typically peak in morning and evening. If you have capacity to move more at peak it'll pay you off to block off (or deadhead) the seats midday and run an attendant less on the bigger aircraft.

Operational performance impacts are pretty niche for Spirit.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Spirit Airlines to announce major Airbus order

Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:26 pm

astuteman wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
LOT767301ER wrote:
Yea, respectfully you have no idea how airline scheduling or planning actually works.


Sorry, but that is a non answer.


If the A320 has a trip cost of ~10%* more than A319, and has 25% more seats, then you have a cost per seat advantage of around 14%!

That is an awful lot to leave on the shelf because of "how airline scheduling or planning actually works".

*fuel burn difference between A320 & A319 on a 500nm mission is only around 3.5%.


Of course, Spirit are well aware of this - which is why the average age of their A319 fleet is 13.1 years and the average age of their A320 fleet is just 4.6 years. Furthermore they haven't taken on a (non-leased) A319 in over 6 years.


Of course, having a fleet of A319s, A320s & A321s is less flexible than a fleet of A320s &A321s only (if an A321 has went AOG then assuming your fleet planning isn't inept, good luck moving those passengers onto an A319 - whereas an A320 and spare seats on the next scheduled flight is feasible). So I expect the order to migrate toward exclusively A320 & A321.


It does fascinate me how A-net seems to fixate on absolutes ....
An A320 is ALWAYS going to be better than an A319 in EVERY case because it has 25% more seats for only 10% more cost? :scratchchin:

In a big fleet, like Spirit, there may well be a selection of routes that have a combination of lower demand/operational limitations such as hot/high or short field that make a case for some A319's in the mix.
As the poster said above, A32X spares and support are pretty much universal, so operating an A319 in those cases will be almost transparent from an operational viewpoint.

That the A220 has not been selected implies that the number of A319's envisaged is small enough for commonality to be the dominant criteria.
It might only be 10 or so. Who knows?
As the poster above says, the Airline's planning team certainly will.

If 50+ were likely to be A319 size, I'd venture to suggest that the A220 would have had a critical mass that would make it worthwhile.
But it would appear that is not the case here.

Rgds

I personally thought NK would order 50+ A220. If the number of A319NEOs is small, best to keep it simple. Now we can debate small.


What I notice is no mention of engine. Will Spirit stay with Pratt?
Winter is coming.
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: Spirit Airlines to announce major Airbus order

Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:27 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
ethernal wrote:
You're right, there is absolutely no logical reason to fly an A319 over an A320.. well, except for the fact that some routes just can't fill 180 seats every day, the A320 needs an extra flight attendant, and there are some routes/airports that may benefit from the operational performance of an A319 over an A320.


Routes typically peak in morning and evening. If you have capacity to move more at peak it'll pay you off to block off (or deadhead) the seats midday and run an attendant less on the bigger aircraft.

Operational performance impacts are pretty niche for Spirit.

You can’t block off seats and have fewer flight attendants. FA requirements are based on the aircraft’s total seats, not occupied seats.
 
Breathe
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Re: Spirit Airlines to announce major Airbus order

Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:28 pm

NYPECO wrote:
Not surprised they'd stick with the A320 family which they already have pilots, training, and equipment for. Not sure why everyone on this site seem to think all airlines require an A220.

Indeed. The A319neo is basically the neo equivalent of the A318 in the A32X classic series. It'll have niche operators.

I would have thought that being an aviation forum, folk would be happy to see the A319neo get some orders. :?
 
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keesje
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:07 pm

If Spirit needs 120-150 3 crew aircraft for part of their network. Should they buy the bigger,
more expensive A320s or an entirely new type, the A220?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Spirit Airlines to announce major Airbus order

Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:11 pm

BanjoYoshi wrote:
They probably got the a319 neos at a good price.


You bet.

And like others have pointed out, introducing A220 would require a seperate pilot pool, training, maintenance contracts and so on.

For a large airline like Delta, that's not a problem. They do most of these things in-house. But for Spirit which is an all Airbus A320 series airline, it probably doesn't make sense.
 
WN732
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:18 pm

Here come the quarterback CEO's! Good for Airbus on a 319NEO order.
 
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keesje
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:04 pm

When wouldn't Airbus give a good discount?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
 
ODwyerPW
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:41 pm

keesje wrote:
If Spirit needs 120-150 3 crew aircraft for part of their network. Should they buy the bigger,
more expensive A320s or an entirely new type, the A220?


Exactly... you go for the A319NEO! They know their network structure.. In complete agreement with you on this! A319NEO will have cheaper acquisition costs, cheaper landing fees, cheaper fuel burn, cheaper fixed labor costs.... all while benefiting from previously sunk costs of training, spares inventory, etc....

In complete agreement with you on this!
learning never stops.
 
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william
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:44 pm

So an airline using a one aircraft family makes good sense from and ops and financial viewpoint. Got it.
 
OmerMaz
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:45 pm

So can we hope for a firming in DAS19?
 
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william
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:46 pm

Flew on Spirit for the first time in August and from a coach window seat perspective sitting in Row 25, there really is no difference between Spirit and a Major.

I take it these will be sold lease backs as the others in Spirit fleet to keep the long term debt to nil?

Congrats to Spirit and Airbus. After Frontier's parent company made the record NB order a couple of years ago, many were waiting for Spirit to do something similar. Here we are.
Last edited by william on Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
N757ST
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:49 pm

ODwyerPW wrote:
keesje wrote:
If Spirit needs 120-150 3 crew aircraft for part of their network. Should they buy the bigger,
more expensive A320s or an entirely new type, the A220?


Exactly... you go for the A319NEO! They know their network structure.. In complete agreement with you on this! A319NEO will have cheaper acquisition costs, cheaper landing fees, cheaper fuel burn, cheaper fixed labor costs.... all while benefiting from previously sunk costs of training, spares inventory, etc....

In complete agreement with you on this!


Cheap acquisition cost: marginally
Cheaper landing fees : probably not
Cheaper fuel burn : almost negligible, much higher per seat
Cheaper labor costs: one extra FA?

The argument isn’t that you don’t buy airbuses, the argument is there are close to zero missions the a319neo makes sense vs the a320neo, and investing marginally more for the a320neo and flying around empty seats if need be for the potential additional revenue capability is worth it.
 
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william
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:54 pm

N757ST wrote:
ODwyerPW wrote:
keesje wrote:
If Spirit needs 120-150 3 crew aircraft for part of their network. Should they buy the bigger,
more expensive A320s or an entirely new type, the A220?


Exactly... you go for the A319NEO! They know their network structure.. In complete agreement with you on this! A319NEO will have cheaper acquisition costs, cheaper landing fees, cheaper fuel burn, cheaper fixed labor costs.... all while benefiting from previously sunk costs of training, spares inventory, etc....

In complete agreement with you on this!


Cheap acquisition cost: marginally
Cheaper landing fees : probably not
Cheaper fuel burn : almost negligible, much higher per seat
Cheaper labor costs: one extra FA?

The argument isn’t that you don’t buy airbuses, the argument is there are close to zero missions the a319neo makes sense vs the a320neo, and investing marginally more for the a320neo and flying around empty seats if need be for the potential additional revenue capability is worth it.


Unless you change the Cheap acquisition cost: WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT! Low.

Then it makes all the sense in the world.
 
N757ST
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:09 pm

william wrote:
N757ST wrote:
ODwyerPW wrote:

Exactly... you go for the A319NEO! They know their network structure.. In complete agreement with you on this! A319NEO will have cheaper acquisition costs, cheaper landing fees, cheaper fuel burn, cheaper fixed labor costs.... all while benefiting from previously sunk costs of training, spares inventory, etc....

In complete agreement with you on this!


Cheap acquisition cost: marginally
Cheaper landing fees : probably not
Cheaper fuel burn : almost negligible, much higher per seat
Cheaper labor costs: one extra FA?

The argument isn’t that you don’t buy airbuses, the argument is there are close to zero missions the a319neo makes sense vs the a320neo, and investing marginally more for the a320neo and flying around empty seats if need be for the potential additional revenue capability is worth it.


Unless you change the Cheap acquisition cost: WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT! Low.

Then it makes all the sense in the world.


Riddle me this Batman. Airbus is booked out for years, and the a319neo/a320neo share the same assembly line. Why would airbus give a giant smoking hot unbelievable deal on a319s vs standard discount pricing for a320neos? Do you think they would really give a deal so fundamentally large that it would make it worth flying an highly inefficient model around for a 25 year service life, and considering a 25 year+ service life how much do you think a marginally smaller acquisition price matters?
 
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william
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:29 pm

william wrote:
N757ST wrote:
william wrote:

Unless you change the Cheap acquisition cost: WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT! Low.

Then it makes all the sense in the world.


Riddle me this Batman. Airbus is booked out for years, and the a319neo/a320neo share the same assembly line. Why would airbus give a giant smoking hot unbelievable deal on a319s vs standard discount pricing for a320neos? Do you think they would really give a deal so fundamentally large that it would make it worth flying an highly inefficient model around for a 25 year service life, and considering a 25 year+ service life how much do you think a marginally smaller acquisition price matters?




This is the problem Joker, only two parties know the answer to the questions you asked, Spirit and Airbus. And if Spirit wants an aircraft that only needs to three FAs, why not ask the Airbus sales guy to "go talk to his sales manager" and see what happens. Apparently Airbus through in some free floor mats,a calendar and under body coating on the A319NEO. Spirit liked the deal well enough to sign the contract.
 
santi319
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:54 pm

I can’t believe the meltdowns here because NK bought an A319NEO...

Seriously...
 
JamesCousins
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Re: Spirit Airlines to announce major Airbus order

Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:23 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but an MoU is basically:

"We will buy 150 aircraft from you and the agreed prices for each subframe type are:
A319: XXX
A320: YYY
A321: ZZZ
We have options for a further AAA aircraft, if we take those options they will be priced at the agreed rates above"


Which means they haven't ordered any A319, just set prices on them.


Yes but it's not like this is an airline currently only operating a handful of Q400s and a single A319, they have a 130-strong all-Airbus A320 fleet with expansion needs, cancelling this order (or to be technically correct, not firming up the MOU) would be very surprising
Q400, A320-200, A321-200, 737-500, 737-800, 747-400, 757-200, 787-9 // FCA, TOM, TUI, MON, MT, BA, VS, DL, BE, X9, OLY // Upcoming: W6 A320, W6 A321, EVA 77W, VS 787-9m AS A320, VS A35K, KLM E190, KLM 738, LS 737
 
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scbriml
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:43 pm

N757ST wrote:
that it would make it worth flying an highly inefficient model around for a 25 year service life


To characterise the A319neo as “highly inefficient” is laughable.

Please explain how Southwest is considered such a wonderfully well run airline when they do exactly the same thing with 737 models. Your argument falls flat on its face.
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N757ST
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:22 pm

scbriml wrote:
N757ST wrote:
that it would make it worth flying an highly inefficient model around for a 25 year service life


To characterise the A319neo as “highly inefficient” is laughable.

Please explain how Southwest is considered such a wonderfully well run airline when they do exactly the same thing with 737 models. Your argument falls flat on its face.


Order book:

A319neo: 36
A320neo: 3800
A321neo: 2800
A220: 500

Yeah, all the airlines are scrambling to order that highly efficient aircraft.
 
Beechtobus
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:30 pm

N757ST wrote:
Riddle me this Batman. Airbus is booked out for years, and the a319neo/a320neo share the same assembly line. Why would airbus give a giant smoking hot unbelievable deal on a319s vs standard discount pricing for a320neos? Do you think they would really give a deal so fundamentally large that it would make it worth flying an highly inefficient model around for a 25 year service life, and considering a 25 year+ service life how much do you think a marginally smaller acquisition price matters?


First off, we don’t even have any details of the break down of the order and how many A319s (if any) will be involved. If they are included, I’m sure they are warranted with future plans for long/thin, hot/high routes. Likely not enough required though, that would have warranted a whole new fleet type such as the A220 and all the costs associated with a new fleet type.

This order has been over a year and A half in the making; I trust the powers that be at NK did their due diligence and made the best decision that they could based on what was available and at what price they were available at. That’s to say I trust their decision making over any A.net armchair ceo/cfo’s banter.
 
N757ST
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:37 pm

Beechtobus wrote:
N757ST wrote:
Riddle me this Batman. Airbus is booked out for years, and the a319neo/a320neo share the same assembly line. Why would airbus give a giant smoking hot unbelievable deal on a319s vs standard discount pricing for a320neos? Do you think they would really give a deal so fundamentally large that it would make it worth flying an highly inefficient model around for a 25 year service life, and considering a 25 year+ service life how much do you think a marginally smaller acquisition price matters?


First off, we don’t even have any details of the break down of the order and how many A319s (if any) will be involved. If they are included, I’m sure they are warranted with future plans for long/thin, hot/high routes. Likely not enough required though, that would have warranted a whole new fleet type such as the A220 and all the costs associated with a new fleet type.

This order has been over a year and A half in the making; I trust the powers that be at NK did their due diligence and made the best decision that they could based on what was available and at what price they were available at. That’s to say I trust their decision making over any A.net armchair ceo/cfo’s banter.


They are entitled to order any any aircraft they want, I’m pointing out that I don’t see any “hot high” advantage to the a319neo vs the a320neo. Yes, I fly the aircraft, I know it’s capabilities, the a319 had some advantages over the a320 into certain unique airports, but the a320neo isn’t the a320. It’s far more capable, and I don’t see an example of a route where the a319neo performance would be warranted. Maybe it is and I just don’t see it.
 
LOT767301ER
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:08 am

Sorry, but that is a non answer.


If the A320 has a trip cost of ~10%* more than A319, and has 25% more seats, then you have a cost per seat advantage of around 14%!

That is an awful lot to leave on the shelf because of "how airline scheduling or planning actually works".


You're dealing in absolutes to which when applied in the real world are a syntax error :)

They are entitled to order any any aircraft they want, I’m pointing out that I don’t see any “hot high” advantage to the a319neo vs the a320neo. Yes, I fly the aircraft, I know it’s capabilities, the a319 had some advantages over the a320 into certain unique airports, but the a320neo isn’t the a320. It’s far more capable, and I don’t see an example of a route where the a319neo performance would be warranted. Maybe it is and I just don’t see it.


I can think of a few however thats not even the main reason why you would purchase a smaller gauge aircraft like the 31N over a 32N. The 31N vs. 220 argument is 10x more valid than arguing why youd buy a 32N and never get a 31N, its actually kind of funny you are so convinced you are right..
 
Babyshark
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:11 am

santi319 wrote:
I can’t believe the meltdowns here because NK bought an A319NEO...

Seriously...


It's because they see the C Series as the greatest airplane ever made and everyone loves it.

Except mechanics. And maintenance control when it requires another 30 minute complete shutdown at the gate to fix a glitch.
 
Beechtobus
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:58 am

N757ST wrote:
They are entitled to order any any aircraft they want, I’m pointing out that I don’t see any “hot high” advantage to the a319neo vs the a320neo. Yes, I fly the aircraft, I know it’s capabilities, the a319 had some advantages over the a320 into certain unique airports, but the a320neo isn’t the a320. It’s far more capable, and I don’t see an example of a route where the a319neo performance would be warranted. Maybe it is and I just don’t see it.


I think what needs to be kept in mind is that a ULCC like Spirit will operate their fleet much closer to the aircrafts MTOW because of their higher seating densities. Small differences in range and takeoff performance make a big difference when closer to the aircrafts MTOWs for reasons like higher seating densities. With higher seating densities an airline will get to the point where they have to trade payload for fuel (range). For example, I’m sure AA would have no problem launching a full A320neo from BOG to ORD or B6 launching one from BUR to BOS but I’m not so sure that Spirit could do the same with a full A320neo based on their increased payload due to their higher seat density. These routes may be possible on Spirit, though, in a full A319neo.

Range numbers and takeoff distance data that manufacturers advertise are generally based on a typical airlines (like AA or LH) seating density and not a ULCC like NK or F9. With higher seat densities, range will be lower and takeoff runs/stage 2 climbs will be longer.

Notice there is no mention of the 321LR being ordered for Spirit. The 321LR With simply longer range due to added fuel tanks and no increase to MTOW would make no sense for Spirit as they would have to trade payload for fuel due to their higher seat density. Other airlines wont typically have to make this tradeoff due to lower seating densities. Now the 321XLR may be a different story for Spirit in the future as it is getting an MTOW increase.

Long story short, where a 320neo and 319neo may be very similarly capable for an airline with a standard seating density, the performance differences may be notable for one with a higher seating density, thus the A319neo order from Spirit.
 
ODwyerPW
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:25 am

N757ST wrote:
Cheap acquisition cost: marginally
Cheaper landing fees : probably not
Cheaper fuel burn : almost negligible, much higher per seat
Cheaper labor costs: one extra FA?
The argument isn’t that you don’t buy airbuses, the argument is there are close to zero missions the a319neo makes sense vs the a320neo, and investing marginally more for the a320neo and flying around empty seats if need be for the potential additional revenue capability is worth it.


CASM only helps if you can fil the seats.... If you a route that is time and again about 140pax and never exceeds the capacity of an A319.... why would you deliberately choose to always burn more fuel, scheduling and always carrying one more flight attendants than necessary, always paying more to land, and pay more up front...… Maginal???? I'm thinking Margins... as in Profits.... NK has so many narrow body Airbii that they have the luxury of tailoring a plane for the routes....

You don't buy an A319 for a route that can fill a an A320... you buy an A320..... why can't the reverse be true?
learning never stops.
 
ODwyerPW
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:32 am

N757ST wrote:
The argument isn’t that you don’t buy airbuses, the argument is there are close to zero missions the a319neo makes sense vs the a320neo, and investing marginally more for the a320neo and flying around empty seats if need be for the potential additional revenue capability is worth it.


What if you have several routes that NEVER top out at more than 140pax.... Do you cancel them?..... Do you buy a plane that seats 25 people too many and it's associated costs?.... Or, if you have the luxury of rightsizing a purchase and banking millions and mlllions of dollars, do you go with the right size plane?

I have a King Cab Nissan Frontier...… It never, ever have anyone in it but me, my wife and the dogs. If we need to carry other people... that's what we have our Honda CRV for... But do I go out and trade in my Nissan Frontier King Cab for a Crew Cab... spending extra money on the initial purchase.... spending more on fuel....? No... I have the luxury of being able to own more than 1 vehicle... and I have them tailored to my needs.... Why on earth wouldnt' an airline with over 100 planes... tailor 5% of the fleet and save over 25-30 million right off the bat? Cuz they might need an A320???? They have 95 of them!!
learning never stops.
 
tphuang
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:43 am

ODwyerPW wrote:
N757ST wrote:
The argument isn’t that you don’t buy airbuses, the argument is there are close to zero missions the a319neo makes sense vs the a320neo, and investing marginally more for the a320neo and flying around empty seats if need be for the potential additional revenue capability is worth it.


What if you have several routes that NEVER top out at more than 140pax.... Do you cancel them?..... Do you buy a plane that seats 25 people too many and it's associated costs?.... Or, if you have the luxury of rightsizing a purchase and banking millions and mlllions of dollars, do you go with the right size plane?

I have a King Cab Nissan Frontier...… It never, ever have anyone in it but me, my wife and the dogs. If we need to carry other people... that's what we have our Honda CRV for... But do I go out and trade in my Nissan Frontier King Cab for a Crew Cab... spending extra money on the initial purchase.... spending more on fuel....? No... I have the luxury of being able to own more than 1 vehicle... and I have them tailored to my needs.... Why on earth wouldnt' an airline with over 100 planes... tailor 5% of the fleet and save over 25-30 million right off the bat? Cuz they might need an A320???? They have 95 of them!!

you get A220-300, lower cost to operate and more seats.
 
N757ST
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:47 am

ODwyerPW wrote:
N757ST wrote:
The argument isn’t that you don’t buy airbuses, the argument is there are close to zero missions the a319neo makes sense vs the a320neo, and investing marginally more for the a320neo and flying around empty seats if need be for the potential additional revenue capability is worth it.


What if you have several routes that NEVER top out at more than 140pax.... Do you cancel them?..... Do you buy a plane that seats 25 people too many and it's associated costs?.... Or, if you have the luxury of rightsizing a purchase and banking millions and mlllions of dollars, do you go with the right size plane?

I have a King Cab Nissan Frontier...… It never, ever have anyone in it but me, my wife and the dogs. If we need to carry other people... that's what we have our Honda CRV for... But do I go out and trade in my Nissan Frontier King Cab for a Crew Cab... spending extra money on the initial purchase.... spending more on fuel....? No... I have the luxury of being able to own more than 1 vehicle... and I have them tailored to my needs.... Why on earth wouldnt' an airline with over 100 planes... tailor 5% of the fleet and save over 25-30 million right off the bat? Cuz they might need an A320???? They have 95 of them!!


You use your existing a319 fleet. I don’t think there’s a bunch of those markets though, between frequency adjustments and all.
 
N757ST
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:51 am

ODwyerPW wrote:
N757ST wrote:
Cheap acquisition cost: marginally
Cheaper landing fees : probably not
Cheaper fuel burn : almost negligible, much higher per seat
Cheaper labor costs: one extra FA?
The argument isn’t that you don’t buy airbuses, the argument is there are close to zero missions the a319neo makes sense vs the a320neo, and investing marginally more for the a320neo and flying around empty seats if need be for the potential additional revenue capability is worth it.


CASM only helps if you can fil the seats.... If you a route that is time and again about 140pax and never exceeds the capacity of an A319.... why would you deliberately choose to always burn more fuel, scheduling and always carrying one more flight attendants than necessary, always paying more to land, and pay more up front...… Maginal???? I'm thinking Margins... as in Profits.... NK has so many narrow body Airbii that they have the luxury of tailoring a plane for the routes....

You don't buy an A319 for a route that can fill a an A320... you buy an A320..... why can't the reverse be true?


The marginal increase in fuel burn, crew cost, and acquisition cost is so insignificant that the vast majority of operators would prefer to buy the added potential of revenue derived from the A320. If the market never sees more then 140 passengers on a single daily frequency then use your existing a319 fleet. Again, the market has spoken. There are thousands of A320s and a321s on order, and 36 a319s.
 
Beechtobus
Posts: 519
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:09 pm

Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:51 am

tphuang wrote:
[
you get A220-300, lower cost to operate and more seats.


Is it really lower cost though? 2 fleet types, 2 seniority lists, 2 different pools of pilots, 2 maintenance spares stockpiles, 2 different training and recurrency programs, etc....
 
BooDog
Posts: 149
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:44 am

Re: Spirit Airlines to announce major Airbus order

Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:56 am

Amiga500 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but an MoU is basically:

"We will buy 150 aircraft from you and the agreed prices for each subframe type are:
A319: XXX
A320: YYY
A321: ZZZ
We have options for a further AAA aircraft, if we take those options they will be priced at the agreed rates above"


Which means they haven't ordered any A319, just set prices on them.


It's like a handshake agreement put down on paper. A MoU is not legally binding, it's only worth the reputation of the parties involved. Airbus can legally come back later and raise the price with no penalty, but that hurts their relationship with Spirit. Spirit can legally cancel the entire order with Airbus with no penalty, but that hurts their relationship with Airbus.
B1B - best looking aircraft ever.
 
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madpropsyo
Posts: 90
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:08 am

william wrote:
Flew on Spirit for the first time in August and from a coach window seat perspective sitting in Row 25, there really is no difference between Spirit and a Major.


Come on now... There is a difference, a big one.

Don’t get me wrong, I have no qualms with flying Spirit/Allegiant/Frontier if the schedule and price are right, but let’s be honest here; the experience is not in any way worth the same as flying on any major airline in the US. Even the size of the seat back tray feels like it’s designed to specifically remind you of just how much of a cheap bastard you are to be flying Spirit. They provide adequate service in their own lane, but they aren’t providing anything close to the same product as a legacy airline.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Spirit Airlines to announce major Airbus order

Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:22 am

JoseSalazar wrote:
You can’t block off seats and have fewer flight attendants. FA requirements are based on the aircraft’s total seats, not occupied seats.


You sure?


§91.533 Flight attendant requirements.
(a) No person may operate an airplane unless at least the following number of flight attendants are on board the airplane:

(1) For airplanes having more than 19 but less than 51 passengers on board, one flight attendant.

(2) For airplanes having more than 50 but less than 101 passengers on board, two flight attendants.

(3) For airplanes having more than 100 passengers on board, two flight attendants plus one additional flight attendant for each unit (or part of a unit) of 50 passengers above 100.


I see passengers, I don't see seats.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Spirit Airlines to announce major Airbus order

Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:25 am

JetBuddy wrote:
BanjoYoshi wrote:
They probably got the a319 neos at a good price.


You bet.


They will not!

Airbus have the line booked solid for years. Why on earth would they price an A319 at anything significantly less than usual A320 sale cost minus the build cost difference?
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1869
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

Re: Spirit Airlines to announce major Airbus order

Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:31 am

MSPNWA wrote:
I'm mildly surprised at the A319 being involved. But I would have been more surprised at the A220 and breaking up fleet commonality. To me NK was one of the few buyers that would still be interested in the A319. Good score for Airbus. That's some aggressive growth coming for NK.


Airbus was probably surprised as well. Everyones focus is on the A320/A321.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19180
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:38 am

N757ST wrote:
Yeah, all the airlines are scrambling to order that highly efficient aircraft.


The A319neo is not an inefficient plane. Just stop that nonsense.

Second item - explain to me why Southwest doing exactly the same thing with 737s is considered to be a wonderfully well run airline, but when NK does it with Airbus planes, they're suddenly idiots (according to you). I suspect NK know more about what works for them than you do.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
N757ST
Posts: 1032
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Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:23 am

scbriml wrote:
N757ST wrote:
Yeah, all the airlines are scrambling to order that highly efficient aircraft.


The A319neo is not an inefficient plane. Just stop that nonsense.

Second item - explain to me why Southwest doing exactly the same thing with 737s is considered to be a wonderfully well run airline, but when NK does it with Airbus planes, they're suddenly idiots (according to you). I suspect NK know more about what works for them than you do.


I haven’t called them idiots, I’ve said it doesn’t make much sense. Southwest has numerous stations that are very performance limited, other then that also don’t see the point of getting the -7max. Southwest is probably a poor example... while they make a lot of money they also do things a bit backwards in the industry, and with their massive size might have benefited with different fleet types. They certainly leave money on the table with reference to red eye flying l, which couldn’t be done until recently due to their antiquated old reservation system. Efficiency is obviously a nebulous term, as back in the day a Md80 was considered highly efficient. The a319neo on a seat mile cost is ~15% less efficient then it’s bigger brother, hence only now 26 a319neos in order. 8 are for air China, the rest boutique carriers or VIP configurations. So basically no one to this point has ordered the thing.
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 6005
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:27 am

It is widely regarded at B6 that the 190 vs 319 was a big mistake

-Fleet commonality

-Parts commonality

-Crew commonality

Each of the above requires costly spares to sit around unused with a second fleet

NK saw a huge discount, and has all of the
above in their back pocket


It is the WN model: one aircraft type. Plain and simple. Very effective


This idea is a winner
 
Babyshark
Posts: 254
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:53 am

jfklganyc wrote:
It is widely regarded at B6 that the 190 vs 319 was a big mistake

-Fleet commonality

-Parts commonality

-Crew commonality

Each of the above requires costly spares to sit around unused with a second fleet

NK saw a huge discount, and has all of the
above in their back pocket


It is the WN model: one aircraft type. Plain and simple. Very effective


This idea is a winner


Fleet commonality is a huge deal. Its brilliant to bring a 319 in over a 223 because you can easily dump the 319 and go back to a 320 at any point and it cost you a minuscule fraction of acquiring and then dumping 223s.

And from an Airbus perspective the 319 is an Airbus. The 220 is not an Airbus. It's not theirs.
 
N757ST
Posts: 1032
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:06 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
It is widely regarded at B6 that the 190 vs 319 was a big mistake



No, it’s not. While the e90 has been a mixed bag and is now due for replacement, all the growth in Boston could not have happened without it. The e90 wasn’t a stellar success, but it wasn’t a failure either. The only people I have ever heard that said B6 should have ordered a319s instead of e90s are pilots.
 
71Zulu
Posts: 1923
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:42 am

Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:16 pm

People still criticizing the A319 like it's the only plane Spirit wants, I wonder if they actually read any of the articles.

From Airbus:

Airbus and Spirit Airlines have agreed to a Memorandum of Understanding for the U.S.-based airline to acquire up to 100 A320neo Family aircraft. Spirit announced its intention to place firm orders for a mix of A319neo, A320neo, and A321neo to meet its future fleet requirements.





Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
vetjetatl
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:08 pm

Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:47 pm

madpropsyo wrote:
william wrote:
Flew on Spirit for the first time in August and from a coach window seat perspective sitting in Row 25, there really is no difference between Spirit and a Major.


Come on now... There is a difference, a big one.

Don’t get me wrong, I have no qualms with flying Spirit/Allegiant/Frontier if the schedule and price are right, but let’s be honest here; the experience is not in any way worth the same as flying on any major airline in the US. Even the size of the seat back tray feels like it’s designed to specifically remind you of just how much of a cheap bastard you are to be flying Spirit. They provide adequate service in their own lane, but they aren’t providing anything close to the same product as a legacy airline.


Often I fly routes on a major airline one way and then on a ULCC on the return or vice versa. Many times the difference in the experience is not worth the difference in ticket price. If you're a frequent flyer with status, that's a whole different story. But for the occasional traveler, it's not a big deal. The "feel" may be different and more high end, I'll give you that, but once I'm sitting down during flight I often feel like "it's the same darn thing"... Then I pat myself in the back for being a cheap bastard :)
 
nkops
Posts: 2237
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:09 am

Re: Spirit Airlines to announce major Airbus order

Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:36 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
You can’t block off seats and have fewer flight attendants. FA requirements are based on the aircraft’s total seats, not occupied seats.


You sure?


§91.533 Flight attendant requirements.
(a) No person may operate an airplane unless at least the following number of flight attendants are on board the airplane:

(1) For airplanes having more than 19 but less than 51 passengers on board, one flight attendant.

(2) For airplanes having more than 50 but less than 101 passengers on board, two flight attendants.

(3) For airplanes having more than 100 passengers on board, two flight attendants plus one additional flight attendant for each unit (or part of a unit) of 50 passengers above 100.


I see passengers, I don't see seats.


§ 121.391 Flight attendants.
(a) Except as specified in § 121.393 and § 121.394, each certificate holder must provide at least the following flight attendants on board each passenger-carrying airplane when passengers are on board:
(1) For airplanes having a maximum payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds and having a seating capacity of more than 9 but less than 51 passengers - one flight attendant.
(2) For airplanes having a maximum payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less and having a seating capacity of more than 19 but less than 51 passengers - one flight attendant.
(3) For airplanes having a seating capacity of more than 50 but less than 101 passengers - two flight attendants.
(4) For airplanes having a seating capacity of more than 100 passengers - two flight attendants plus one additional flight attendant for each unit (or part of a unit) of 50 passenger seats above a seating capacity of 100 passengers.


Spirit is a 121 operator
Turn left heading 080 contact departure
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 256
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Spirit Airlines to announce major Airbus order

Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:37 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
You can’t block off seats and have fewer flight attendants. FA requirements are based on the aircraft’s total seats, not occupied seats.


You sure?


§91.533 Flight attendant requirements.
(a) No person may operate an airplane unless at least the following number of flight attendants are on board the airplane:

(1) For airplanes having more than 19 but less than 51 passengers on board, one flight attendant.

(2) For airplanes having more than 50 but less than 101 passengers on board, two flight attendants.

(3) For airplanes having more than 100 passengers on board, two flight attendants plus one additional flight attendant for each unit (or part of a unit) of 50 passengers above 100.


I see passengers, I don't see seats.


Airlines fly under part 121, not part 91 (except occasional repo/ferry flights, which isn’t applicable to your scenario).

14 CFR § 121.391 - Flight attendants.....
(3) For airplanes having a seating capacity of more than 50 but less than 101 passengers - two flight attendants.

(4) For airplanes having a seating capacity of more than 100 passengers - two flight attendants plus one additional flight attendant for each unit (or part of a unit) of 50 passenger seats above a seating capacity of 100 passengers.
 
TwinStarRocket
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:24 pm

Re: Spirit Airlines to announce major Airbus order

Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:13 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
NK's A319 configuration has 145 seat. That's the same as Baltic air and just 5 more than B6's A220-300 config. I would imagine NK configured A220-300 would have 150 seats at least. A220 pilots would also be paid at a lower scale than A320 series pilots. The total operating cost for A220-300 on a standalone basis is lower than A319.


Spirit just recently went through a contentious labor agreement negotiation with their pilots and probably don't want to re-open that "can of worms" just to get a performance gain by adding the A220's. All Spirit A320-family pilots are on the same seniority list and pay scale. Selling the pilot's union on adding a new type at cheaper rates would not go down too well.

As for the performance differences compared to the A220, I'm sure Airbus offered Spirit some sweet prices to help keep the A319NEO program viable - that would buy a lot of gas.


If the company had ordered the A220 there wouldn't be a separate pay scale. Our contract states that all aircraft with a seating capacity between 99-182 (or 190 for the A320), excluding the A321, pay the same. Adding the A220 to the fleet would have required no changes to our CBA.
 
TwinStarRocket
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:24 pm

Re: Spirit Airlines to announce major Airbus order

Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:15 pm

N757ST wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
It was probably more important for Spirit to strike while their competition is wounded (Max debacle) and the 319 NEO’s would probably get delivered faster than a batch of A220 while also allowing for commonality.


As far as I know the a319 line is the same as the A320. (Different then the a321)

I makes zero sense to choose an a319neo over an a320neo. Zero. And and the market agrees.


We operate the 319 exclusively into BUR and we do have routes where a 319 is more than adequate for capacity. As we continue to expand into mid size markets perhaps they thought the 319 was the better aircraft.
 
TwinStarRocket
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:24 pm

Re: Spirit Airlines to announce major Airbus order

Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:20 pm

SXDFC wrote:
Will the A319NEOs replace the A319CEOs? I also read in another article that NK will launch a new interior this year.


There was no mention of retiring 319's on the Q3 call. However, we are purchasing them off lease and that would give us greater flexibility to retire or sell them. But we're also still running them through the paint shop and at $150k a ship I can't see us spending that kind of money if they were going away soon. I just delivered 524 to GUS for paint and returned 531 to FLL with a shiny new coat of yellow.
 
TwinStarRocket
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:24 pm

Re: Updated: NK Announces Upcoming Order of 100 Airbus A320neo Family Aircraft plus Purchase Options for a further 50

Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:39 pm

Beechtobus wrote:
N757ST wrote:
They are entitled to order any any aircraft they want, I’m pointing out that I don’t see any “hot high” advantage to the a319neo vs the a320neo. Yes, I fly the aircraft, I know it’s capabilities, the a319 had some advantages over the a320 into certain unique airports, but the a320neo isn’t the a320. It’s far more capable, and I don’t see an example of a route where the a319neo performance would be warranted. Maybe it is and I just don’t see it.


I think what needs to be kept in mind is that a ULCC like Spirit will operate their fleet much closer to the aircrafts MTOW because of their higher seating densities. Small differences in range and takeoff performance make a big difference when closer to the aircrafts MTOWs for reasons like higher seating densities. With higher seating densities an airline will get to the point where they have to trade payload for fuel (range). For example, I’m sure AA would have no problem launching a full A320neo from BOG to ORD or B6 launching one from BUR to BOS but I’m not so sure that Spirit could do the same with a full A320neo based on their increased payload due to their higher seat density. These routes may be possible on Spirit, though, in a full A319neo.

Range numbers and takeoff distance data that manufacturers advertise are generally based on a typical airlines (like AA or LH) seating density and not a ULCC like NK or F9. With higher seat densities, range will be lower and takeoff runs/stage 2 climbs will be longer.

Notice there is no mention of the 321LR being ordered for Spirit. The 321LR With simply longer range due to added fuel tanks and no increase to MTOW would make no sense for Spirit as they would have to trade payload for fuel due to their higher seat density. Other airlines wont typically have to make this tradeoff due to lower seating densities. Now the 321XLR may be a different story for Spirit in the future as it is getting an MTOW increase.

Long story short, where a 320neo and 319neo may be very similarly capable for an airline with a standard seating density, the performance differences may be notable for one with a higher seating density, thus the A319neo order from Spirit.


I don't mean to be rude but you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

I have never, ever, been close to MTOW in any flight that I've operated for NK over the last five years. Only about 50% of the time are we departing over our max landing weight which is nothing more than an inspection if we have to do an overweight landing.

NK hauls zero cargo. ZERO. Our cargo hold contains passenger bags and COMAT, if any, and that's it. Our bellies are mostly empty save for US to Latin America flights. AA, DL, and UA are probably heavier than we are as they fly cargo.

The 320 NEO was specifically called out in the Q3 call for being able to do SKBO to FLL without having to block out seats or be weight restricted as we currently are.

Your statements may be true for other airlines but you couldn't be more wrong with them regarding NK.

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