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Flyingsottsman
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What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:15 pm

I have been fascinated about the old Soviet Airliners of the 60s, 70s and 80's. What ever happened to the Ilysuhin, Tupolev, Antonov and Yakovlev company, are they still in business today? I remember seeing my first ever Aeroflot IL 62 at Heathrow back in 1988 and my first TU 154 at Heathrow it belonging to Tarom. So wondering what ever happened to these plane makers?
Last edited by atcsundevil on Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Non descriptive title
 
PowerJet
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Re: Soviet Airliners

Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:28 pm

Still around mostly as names today. Antonov exists as its own company though. It provides global logistics services. I know Yakovlev and Tupolev are subsidiaries of the Irkut Corporation.
 
migair54
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Re: Soviet Airliners

Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:41 pm

Antonov and Tupolev are still around, Sukhoi is also around.
Some airlines have the latest models of them, Tu204, An158 and SSJ100.

They also do quite a lot of work for military planes, military contracts, support and UAV.
 
AkwaabaAir
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Re: Soviet Airliners

Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:43 pm

I believe they are all still in operation.
My first ever international flight was on an Aeroflot IL-62M from Dulles to Shannon (fuel stop) to Moscow in 1995. I was only 13 and in the beginning stages of my AvGeek life. Oh how I wish I could redo that exact flight but with these eyes and this brain.
While I understand the science and mechanics of how it works, I cannot fully comprehend the beauty of it as I watch a plane gracefully leap heavenward.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Soviet Airliners

Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:43 pm

To begin to answer your first question , you need to look at how Soviet aircraft were designed and built. The names you quote were the great design houses, but that is all most of them did. Design the planes. Contracts were then issued to separate constructors as the two functions of design and build were often separated.

Some of this still exists today despite the Putin-era reforms of several of those great names being merged. An analogy would be Boeing designing and testing the 787 then the contract to build it being issued to Lockheed.

Where I'm going with this is that these great names never existed as aircraft companies. They were designers and designed to contract requirements, then building the planes with an allocated factory. All were State owned.
Last edited by Channex757 on Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
LDLT
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Re: Soviet Airliners

Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:51 pm

Flyingsottsman wrote:
I have been fascinated about the old Soviet Airliners of the 60s, 70s and 80's. What ever happened to the Ilysuhin, Tupolev, Antonov and Yakovlev company, are they still in business today? I remember seeing my first ever Aeroflot IL 62 at Heathrow back in 1988 and my first TU 154 at Heathrow it belonging to Tarom. So wondering what ever happened to these plane makers?


Back then they were almost exclusive suppliers to an closed market: USSR + Warsaw pact countries. And the occasional DPRK or Cuba. As a large part of that market is gone for good, and the gap to western producers has grown, the Russian airline industry had to be basically downscaled.
These design and research bureaus still exist and "make" planes, just on a reduced scale (compared to where they were 50 years ago, relative to western producers)
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Soviet Airliners

Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:29 pm

Ilyushin, Sukhoi & Tupolev got swallowed up into United Aircraft Corporation in 2006.
Yakovled was acquired in 2004 by Irkut, itself moved into UAC in 2006.
Antonov, being based in Ukraine whereas the others were based in Russia, is independent.
 
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Ty134A
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Re: Soviet Airliners

Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:37 pm

first off you need to understand that planes were made differently in the USSR. there was no such thing as boeing in seattle or airbus in toulouse. planes were more or less created the following way:

1) the ministery for transportation comes up with a certain demand and launches a competition
2) different design bureaus (Tupolev, Ilyushin, Let, PZL, Yakovlev...) take part (or don't) AND make use of the latest achievements from TSAGI, which is the centralized aero and hydrodynamic institute
3) a winner is announced, or two different designs will be produced for similar purposes (i.e. MiG-29, Su-27)
4) a manufacturing facility is selected for production, i.e. Kuibishev for A81; TU5, Woronesh for TU4; ILW; IL9; Saratov for YK2, Kharkov for TU3, Kazan for IL6; T20, Ulyanovsk for ANF and T20, Toshkent fpr IL7; I14

after the collapse of the soviet union, some design bureaus survived, some facilities died (Saratov for example).
TU3/5,T20,IL8/6/W/9,I14,YK4/2,AN2/4,A26,A28,A38,A40,A81,SU9,L4T,L11,D1C,M11,M80/2/7,
AB4/6,318-321,313,332/3,342/3/5/6,712,703,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,741/L/2/3/4,752/3,763,
77E/W,J31,F50,F70,100,ATP,142/3,AR8/1,SF3,S20,D38,MIH,EM4,E75/90/95,AT7,DHT/3/4,CRJ/7/9
 
dcaviation
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:02 pm

Why did you add PZL to the design bureau? PZL was never part of any soviet program.
Couple of PZL factories built planes for Antonov (AN-2 about 10k of them, and AN-28 few hundred of them).
MiG 15/17 and 19 were built in Poland on a license. MiGs destined for PoAF were called Lim, and MiGs destined for soviet AF were called MiG.
Keep in mind that most of the soviet designs were stolen from the West. They've made poor copies of most of the planes.
 
tu204
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:17 pm

dcaviation wrote:
Why did you add PZL to the design bureau? PZL was never part of any soviet program.
Couple of PZL factories built planes for Antonov (AN-2 about 10k of them, and AN-28 few hundred of them).
MiG 15/17 and 19 were built in Poland on a license. MiGs destined for PoAF were called Lim, and MiGs destined for soviet AF were called MiG.
Keep in mind that most of the soviet designs were stolen from the West. They've made poor copies of most of the planes.


Going to ignore that last uneducated part of your post. :roll:

PZL and Let also participated as it was part of the Economic Cooperation within the socialist states. So although Antonov designed the AN2, PZL got the contract to mass produce. Same goes with the Mi-2 helicopter.

Let would be a bit different, as for they in cooperation with TsAGI designed and then produced the L29, L39 and L410.

With the L410 many believe that the decision to select the L410 as a short range "commuter" was political, to give the Czech incentive and that the competing Soviet designs (Beriev and Antonov's) were technically superior.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Ty134A
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:23 am

dcaviation wrote:
Why did you add PZL to the design bureau? PZL was never part of any soviet program.
Couple of PZL factories built planes for Antonov (AN-2 about 10k of them, and AN-28 few hundred of them).
MiG 15/17 and 19 were built in Poland on a license. MiGs destined for PoAF were called Lim, and MiGs destined for soviet AF were called MiG.
Keep in mind that most of the soviet designs were stolen from the West. They've made poor copies of most of the planes.


name me the design please, and what was copied. you may want to start with avionics and what part was stolen, foremost the navigational complexes of variois types. them check for manufacturing traditions and maybe go into airfoils.

i am not joking, for the fun of it name at least 10 single lktte items that were stolen from the west, designwise. and don't mention such crap as were the engines are mounted.
TU3/5,T20,IL8/6/W/9,I14,YK4/2,AN2/4,A26,A28,A38,A40,A81,SU9,L4T,L11,D1C,M11,M80/2/7,
AB4/6,318-321,313,332/3,342/3/5/6,712,703,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,741/L/2/3/4,752/3,763,
77E/W,J31,F50,F70,100,ATP,142/3,AR8/1,SF3,S20,D38,MIH,EM4,E75/90/95,AT7,DHT/3/4,CRJ/7/9
 
tu204
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:11 am

Ty134A wrote:
dcaviation wrote:
Why did you add PZL to the design bureau? PZL was never part of any soviet program.
Couple of PZL factories built planes for Antonov (AN-2 about 10k of them, and AN-28 few hundred of them).
MiG 15/17 and 19 were built in Poland on a license. MiGs destined for PoAF were called Lim, and MiGs destined for soviet AF were called MiG.
Keep in mind that most of the soviet designs were stolen from the West. They've made poor copies of most of the planes.


name me the design please, and what was copied. you may want to start with avionics and what part was stolen, foremost the navigational complexes of variois types. them check for manufacturing traditions and maybe go into airfoils.

i am not joking, for the fun of it name at least 10 single lktte items that were stolen from the west, designwise. and don't mention such crap as were the engines are mounted.


I can only think of two...back in the late 1940's.

1) B-29/Tu-4 bomber
2) Rolls Royce Nene (I think it was the Nene), which was purchased and then copied and put on MiG-15's.

But I too would be interested to see any notable list of equipment/parts for civilian aircraft and newer than 1955.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Canuck600
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:41 am

This page might be a good start http://www.airvectors.net/idx_smap.html A lot of the Soviet stuff is covered
 
Delta777Jet
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:05 am

Maybe they should start design a new single isle MOM aircraft now ! That new aircraft will be probably flying before the Max is back in the air !
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
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Ty134A
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:34 am

tu204 wrote:
Ty134A wrote:
dcaviation wrote:
Why did you add PZL to the design bureau? PZL was never part of any soviet program.
Couple of PZL factories built planes for Antonov (AN-2 about 10k of them, and AN-28 few hundred of them).
MiG 15/17 and 19 were built in Poland on a license. MiGs destined for PoAF were called Lim, and MiGs destined for soviet AF were called MiG.
Keep in mind that most of the soviet designs were stolen from the West. They've made poor copies of most of the planes.


name me the design please, and what was copied. you may want to start with avionics and what part was stolen, foremost the navigational complexes of variois types. them check for manufacturing traditions and maybe go into airfoils.

i am not joking, for the fun of it name at least 10 single lktte items that were stolen from the west, designwise. and don't mention such crap as were the engines are mounted.


I can only think of two...back in the late 1940's.

1) B-29/Tu-4 bomber
2) Rolls Royce Nene (I think it was the Nene), which was purchased and then copied and put on MiG-15's.

But I too would be interested to see any notable list of equipment/parts for civilian aircraft and newer than 1955.



As far as I understand Tu-4 was basically the same as Li-2, based on licence agreements. Rolls Royce Nene was indeed, as far as I can remember, backengineered and therefore can indeed be argued to be a copy, although again, it was not exactly copied, but used to design the VK-1 and later in china from the VK-1 the WP-5.

What I want to express ist the fact that it is impossible to copy an aircraft. Building an airliner has a lot to do with knowledge akquired over decades. For me, it is impossible to, let's say, backengineer a B707 to a Shanghai Y-10. The more one is familiar with aviation, the less one would conclude that the Y-10 is a B707 copy. Backengineered maybe, but a copy, no.
TU3/5,T20,IL8/6/W/9,I14,YK4/2,AN2/4,A26,A28,A38,A40,A81,SU9,L4T,L11,D1C,M11,M80/2/7,
AB4/6,318-321,313,332/3,342/3/5/6,712,703,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,741/L/2/3/4,752/3,763,
77E/W,J31,F50,F70,100,ATP,142/3,AR8/1,SF3,S20,D38,MIH,EM4,E75/90/95,AT7,DHT/3/4,CRJ/7/9
 
Reddevil556
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:33 am

Flyingsottsman wrote:
I have been fascinated about the old Soviet Airliners of the 60s, 70s and 80's. What ever happened to the Ilysuhin, Tupolev, Antonov and Yakovlev company, are they still in business today? I remember seeing my first ever Aeroflot IL 62 at Heathrow back in 1988 and my first TU 154 at Heathrow it belonging to Tarom. So wondering what ever happened to these plane makers?


Capitalism
Jumped out of: C130H, C130J, C17A, C212, CH47, and UH60. Bucket list: C160, A400, C2
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:05 pm

Ty134A wrote:
As far as I understand Tu-4 was basically the same as Li-2, based on licence agreements.
Li-2 yes, built under licence.
Tu-4 no.
wikipedia wrote:
... on four occasions during 1944, individual B-29s made emergency landings in Soviet territory and one crashed after the crew bailed out.
….the U.S. demanded the return of the bombers, but the Soviets refused

Three repairable B-29s were flown to Moscow and delivered to the Tupolev OKB. One B-29 was dismantled, the second was used for flight tests and training, and the third one was left as a standard for cross-reference.

If you still want to be really picky....
The Soviet Union used the metric system, so sheet aluminium in thicknesses matching the B-29's imperial measurements were unavailable. Alloys and other materials new to the Soviet Union had to be brought into production. Extensive re-engineering had to take place to compensate for the differences, and Soviet official strength margins had to be decreased to avoid further redesign, yet despite these challenges, the prototype Tu-4 weighed only about 340 kg (750 lb) more than the B-29, a difference of less than 1%.

So, technically it isn't an exact copy, but that is due to the factors above, not because the Soviets "improved" the original design.

FWIW I do share your pain in respect of ignorant souls describing everything else the Russians built as copies. The Il-62 is NOT a Vickers VC-10. The Tu-154 is NOT a Boeing 727

And the An-148/158 is not just a twin engine development of the BAe RJ85/100.
On the left is the Antonov, and on the right the BAe. Or is it the other way round? :rotfl:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:21 pm

Ty134A wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Ty134A wrote:

name me the design please, and what was copied. you may want to start with avionics and what part was stolen, foremost the navigational complexes of variois types. them check for manufacturing traditions and maybe go into airfoils.

i am not joking, for the fun of it name at least 10 single lktte items that were stolen from the west, designwise. and don't mention such crap as were the engines are mounted.


I can only think of two...back in the late 1940's.

1) B-29/Tu-4 bomber
2) Rolls Royce Nene (I think it was the Nene), which was purchased and then copied and put on MiG-15's.

But I too would be interested to see any notable list of equipment/parts for civilian aircraft and newer than 1955.



As far as I understand Tu-4 was basically the same as Li-2, based on licence agreements. Rolls Royce Nene was indeed, as far as I can remember, backengineered and therefore can indeed be argued to be a copy, although again, it was not exactly copied, but used to design the VK-1 and later in china from the VK-1 the WP-5.

What I want to express ist the fact that it is impossible to copy an aircraft. Building an airliner has a lot to do with knowledge akquired over decades. For me, it is impossible to, let's say, backengineer a B707 to a Shanghai Y-10. The more one is familiar with aviation, the less one would conclude that the Y-10 is a B707 copy. Backengineered maybe, but a copy, no.

Not really.
The Lisunov Li-2 was a license-built Douglas DC-3; the Tupolev Tu-4 was a reverse-engineered Boeing B-29 (no license was given).

As far as "copies from the West", you can add:
- Tu-4 (mentioned above): reverse-engineered B-29;
- Klimov RD-10: reverse-engineered Jumo 004;
- RD-20: reverse-engineered BMW 003;
- Klimov VK-1 and RD-500: unlicensed modified copies of the Rolls-Royce Nene and Derwent V respectively.
Those examples date back to shortly after WW2 (so, yeah, old news) and the USSR did their own indigenous work after that; but it gave them a jump-start.
Note that the USSR wasn't the only one to do things like this: the German intellectual property of WW2 was properly pillaged by the victors and used in their own countries.

But remember: sometimes, copies can improve from the original.
 
dcaviation
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:22 pm

tu204 wrote:

I can only think of two...back in the late 1940's.

1) B-29/Tu-4 bomber
2) Rolls Royce Nene (I think it was the Nene), which was purchased and then copied and put on MiG-15's.

But I too would be interested to see any notable list of equipment/parts for civilian aircraft and newer than 1955.


Before Nene, MiG-15s had stolen BMW back engineered engines. However Russians did terrible job with reverse engineering, that they had to steal RR engine and back engineering it.

Early Kuznetzov engines were mostly back engineered Western engines.

It's very interesting that a lot of planes in soviet Russia looked like Western birds, and were introduced few years after the original design.
Just to name a few
Comet vs. Tu-104
B727 - Tu-154
DC-9 - Tu-134


Going back to subject: What happened to the soviet airliner manufacturers?

It's because too many people were saying this at the gate before their flight:
"I am SO glad that I have soviet built plane for this flight"
 
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DL747400
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:31 pm

Flyingsottsman wrote:
I have been fascinated about the old Soviet Airliners of the 60s, 70s and 80's. What ever happened to the Ilysuhin, Tupolev, Antonov and Yakovlev company, are they still in business today? I remember seeing my first ever Aeroflot IL 62 at Heathrow back in 1988 and my first TU 154 at Heathrow it belonging to Tarom. So wondering what ever happened to these plane makers?


They crashed and burned. Just like Russia. Their products were evaluated by a worldwide commercial aviation market and were found to be inferior in both quality and reliability. Potential airline buyers shunned Soviet-built commercial aircraft and spoke with their wallets, choosing instead to buy from Airbus and Boeing. The Capitalist free market won.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:08 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Flyingsottsman wrote:
I have been fascinated about the old Soviet Airliners of the 60s, 70s and 80's. What ever happened to the Ilysuhin, Tupolev, Antonov and Yakovlev company, are they still in business today? I remember seeing my first ever Aeroflot IL 62 at Heathrow back in 1988 and my first TU 154 at Heathrow it belonging to Tarom. So wondering what ever happened to these plane makers?


They crashed and burned. Just like Russia. Their products were evaluated by a worldwide commercial aviation market and were found to be inferior in both quality and reliability. Potential airline buyers shunned Soviet-built commercial aircraft and spoke with their wallets, choosing instead to buy from Airbus and Boeing. The Capitalist free market won.

Just for the sake of arguing, where they really inferior in quality and reliability?
You have to remember that they were built to handle the rough weather in Northern Soviet Union, poorly prepared/unprepared runways and the sort. Their economics were most likely poor compared to the Western planes (highly fuel consumption mainly); but, all things being equal, were they really that much worse?
 
SteelChair
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:42 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Flyingsottsman wrote:
I have been fascinated about the old Soviet Airliners of the 60s, 70s and 80's. What ever happened to the Ilysuhin, Tupolev, Antonov and Yakovlev company, are they still in business today? I remember seeing my first ever Aeroflot IL 62 at Heathrow back in 1988 and my first TU 154 at Heathrow it belonging to Tarom. So wondering what ever happened to these plane makers?


They crashed and burned. Just like Russia. Their products were evaluated by a worldwide commercial aviation market and were found to be inferior in both quality and reliability. Potential airline buyers shunned Soviet-built commercial aircraft and spoke with their wallets, choosing instead to buy from Airbus and Boeing. The Capitalist free market won.

Just for the sake of arguing, where they really inferior in quality and reliability?
You have to remember that they were built to handle the rough weather in Northern Soviet Union, poorly prepared/unprepared runways and the sort. Their economics were most likely poor compared to the Western planes (highly fuel consumption mainly); but, all things being equal, were they really that much worse?


Well gosh, just compare the safety record to western operators.
 
DLPMMM
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:11 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Ty134A wrote:
tu204 wrote:

I can only think of two...back in the late 1940's.

1) B-29/Tu-4 bomber
2) Rolls Royce Nene (I think it was the Nene), which was purchased and then copied and put on MiG-15's.

But I too would be interested to see any notable list of equipment/parts for civilian aircraft and newer than 1955.



As far as I understand Tu-4 was basically the same as Li-2, based on licence agreements. Rolls Royce Nene was indeed, as far as I can remember, backengineered and therefore can indeed be argued to be a copy, although again, it was not exactly copied, but used to design the VK-1 and later in china from the VK-1 the WP-5.

What I want to express ist the fact that it is impossible to copy an aircraft. Building an airliner has a lot to do with knowledge akquired over decades. For me, it is impossible to, let's say, backengineer a B707 to a Shanghai Y-10. The more one is familiar with aviation, the less one would conclude that the Y-10 is a B707 copy. Backengineered maybe, but a copy, no.

Not really.
The Lisunov Li-2 was a license-built Douglas DC-3; the Tupolev Tu-4 was a reverse-engineered Boeing B-29 (no license was given).

As far as "copies from the West", you can add:
- Tu-4 (mentioned above): reverse-engineered B-29;
- Klimov RD-10: reverse-engineered Jumo 004;
- RD-20: reverse-engineered BMW 003;
- Klimov VK-1 and RD-500: unlicensed modified copies of the Rolls-Royce Nene and Derwent V respectively.
Those examples date back to shortly after WW2 (so, yeah, old news) and the USSR did their own indigenous work after that; but it gave them a jump-start.
Note that the USSR wasn't the only one to do things like this: the German intellectual property of WW2 was properly pillaged by the victors and used in their own countries.

But remember: sometimes, copies can improve from the original.


How about "Concordski"...That was definitely a copy....and I don't think it was an improvement,
 
WayexTDI
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:26 pm

SteelChair wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
DL747400 wrote:

They crashed and burned. Just like Russia. Their products were evaluated by a worldwide commercial aviation market and were found to be inferior in both quality and reliability. Potential airline buyers shunned Soviet-built commercial aircraft and spoke with their wallets, choosing instead to buy from Airbus and Boeing. The Capitalist free market won.

Just for the sake of arguing, where they really inferior in quality and reliability?
You have to remember that they were built to handle the rough weather in Northern Soviet Union, poorly prepared/unprepared runways and the sort. Their economics were most likely poor compared to the Western planes (highly fuel consumption mainly); but, all things being equal, were they really that much worse?


Well gosh, just compare the safety record to western operators.

But, then again, was the poorer safety record due strictly to the airframe and its accessories? Or was it due to the environment in which they were operated?
For quite a while, the Russian jets had a nose glass and a navigator as there was little to no navigational aids available in some parts of the country; the lack of aids did not help with the safety record.

And, since you're talking about "Western operators", is it really a matter of the airframe itself, or the operator/maintenance operation?
The 737 "original" (a.k.a. Jurassic, that is the 737-100 & -200) have a poor safety record; but, a lot of these crashes were due to poorly maintained planes, flown by more-or-less fly-by-night operators when those planes were disposed of by their original operators.

Raw numbers cannot be compared just like that; a thorough analysis is needed.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:30 pm

DLPMMM wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Ty134A wrote:


As far as I understand Tu-4 was basically the same as Li-2, based on licence agreements. Rolls Royce Nene was indeed, as far as I can remember, backengineered and therefore can indeed be argued to be a copy, although again, it was not exactly copied, but used to design the VK-1 and later in china from the VK-1 the WP-5.

What I want to express ist the fact that it is impossible to copy an aircraft. Building an airliner has a lot to do with knowledge akquired over decades. For me, it is impossible to, let's say, backengineer a B707 to a Shanghai Y-10. The more one is familiar with aviation, the less one would conclude that the Y-10 is a B707 copy. Backengineered maybe, but a copy, no.

Not really.
The Lisunov Li-2 was a license-built Douglas DC-3; the Tupolev Tu-4 was a reverse-engineered Boeing B-29 (no license was given).

As far as "copies from the West", you can add:
- Tu-4 (mentioned above): reverse-engineered B-29;
- Klimov RD-10: reverse-engineered Jumo 004;
- RD-20: reverse-engineered BMW 003;
- Klimov VK-1 and RD-500: unlicensed modified copies of the Rolls-Royce Nene and Derwent V respectively.
Those examples date back to shortly after WW2 (so, yeah, old news) and the USSR did their own indigenous work after that; but it gave them a jump-start.
Note that the USSR wasn't the only one to do things like this: the German intellectual property of WW2 was properly pillaged by the victors and used in their own countries.

But remember: sometimes, copies can improve from the original.


How about "Concordski"...That was definitely a copy....and I don't think it was an improvement,

I did forgot about the Tu-144; the accusations of spying will be a never-ending story and whether the Tu-144 was a copy of Concorde (or vice-versa, depending on which side you are) will remain subject to debate.
But, yeah, it should be added to the list (although the list did not include "inspirations/copies", just actual reverse-engineering).
 
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Seabear
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:31 pm

DLPMMM wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Ty134A wrote:


As far as I understand Tu-4 was basically the same as Li-2, based on licence agreements. Rolls Royce Nene was indeed, as far as I can remember, backengineered and therefore can indeed be argued to be a copy, although again, it was not exactly copied, but used to design the VK-1 and later in china from the VK-1 the WP-5.

What I want to express ist the fact that it is impossible to copy an aircraft. Building an airliner has a lot to do with knowledge akquired over decades. For me, it is impossible to, let's say, backengineer a B707 to a Shanghai Y-10. The more one is familiar with aviation, the less one would conclude that the Y-10 is a B707 copy. Backengineered maybe, but a copy, no.

Not really.
The Lisunov Li-2 was a license-built Douglas DC-3; the Tupolev Tu-4 was a reverse-engineered Boeing B-29 (no license was given).

As far as "copies from the West", you can add:
- Tu-4 (mentioned above): reverse-engineered B-29;
- Klimov RD-10: reverse-engineered Jumo 004;
- RD-20: reverse-engineered BMW 003;
- Klimov VK-1 and RD-500: unlicensed modified copies of the Rolls-Royce Nene and Derwent V respectively.
Those examples date back to shortly after WW2 (so, yeah, old news) and the USSR did their own indigenous work after that; but it gave them a jump-start.
Note that the USSR wasn't the only one to do things like this: the German intellectual property of WW2 was properly pillaged by the victors and used in their own countries.

But remember: sometimes, copies can improve from the original.


How about "Concordski"...That was definitely a copy....and I don't think it was an improvement,


Or Buran... definitely a copy, and in many ways an improvement.
 
workhorse
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:53 pm

DLPMMM wrote:
How about "Concordski"...That was definitely a copy....and I don't think it was an improvement,


Well, let's check it out.

One has engines under the wings, the other all close to each other under the fuselage. One has canards, the other doesn't. One is 65.7 m long and 28.8 m wide, the other 61.66 m long and 25.6 m wide.

Definitely a copy. Bad Russian thieves.
 
Jonne1184
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:26 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Flyingsottsman wrote:
I have been fascinated about the old Soviet Airliners of the 60s, 70s and 80's. What ever happened to the Ilysuhin, Tupolev, Antonov and Yakovlev company, are they still in business today? I remember seeing my first ever Aeroflot IL 62 at Heathrow back in 1988 and my first TU 154 at Heathrow it belonging to Tarom. So wondering what ever happened to these plane makers?


They crashed and burned. Just like Russia. Their products were evaluated by a worldwide commercial aviation market and were found to be inferior in both quality and reliability. Potential airline buyers shunned Soviet-built commercial aircraft and spoke with their wallets, choosing instead to buy from Airbus and Boeing. The Capitalist free market won.


Sorry, but this is just wrong. The safety statistics of the Soviet aircraft designs are nearly all equal or better than western aircrafts from the same time, the main exception being the Tu-144. Just because you repeat something again and again, does not make it true.

The Tu-154 by the way had a remarkable dispatch reliability at Aeroflot of over 99% through its lifetime. However its main burden by today standards is its high fuel consumption due to its weight. This is another myth which keeps spreading: The Tu-154 does not burn that much fuel, because the engines are less efficient (they actual have a specific fuel consumption at JT8D level), but because it weighs so much. A comparably sized 727 has an OEW about 11 tons lighter.
 
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DrPaul
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:09 pm

dcaviation wrote:
Before Nene, MiG-15s had stolen BMW back engineered engines. However Russians did terrible job with reverse engineering, that they had to steal RR engine and back engineering it.


The Rolls Royce Nene engines were not 'stolen', they were actually sold by Britain to the Soviet Union. The Soviet authorities did not exactly proceed by the sale agreement and used the engines for military use. They also produced an engine that was copied from it and then another developed from it, but the original sales were legitimate.

The idea that Soviet aviation was perennially reliant upon Western technology acquired mainly if not overwhelmingly by way of copying and espionage is an old one, and, as we can see, remains popular to this day. I looked into this when reviewing Scott W Palmer's book Dictatorship of the Air: Aviation Culture and the Fate of Modern Russia (Cambridge, 2008). I wrote:

‘That Soviet aviation in its earlier years relied heavily upon Western technology, particularly in respect of engines, is not a contentious idea. However, Palmer’s rather glib statement that the KGB ‘obtained so many thousands of American blueprints and products that it appeared, in retrospect, as if Soviet military and civil sectors had simply substituted American and European firms for their own research and development labs’ (p 280), is surely an overstatement. Espionage certainly did take place during the postwar decades, but can it really be seen as the major factor behind the development of Soviet aviation? Robert Kilmarx’s A History of Soviet Air Power (London, 1962) considered that after the Second World War foreign assistance ‘merely facilitated Soviet progress and made possible short cuts and savings in research, development and production’, and, by the Korean War, ‘Russia was entering a period in which its air power could be considered self-sufficient in new technologies’ (p 233). Kenneth Whiting’s Soviet Air Power (Boulder, 1986) added that during the period of Khrushchev’s rule, the Soviet Union ‘ceased to be dependent upon foreign inputs’, and ‘its airframe and engine design bureaus were able to hold their own with the West’ (p 43).’

As for the idea that mere similar physical appearance is evidence of copying, one might as well as say that Douglas merely copied the Boeing 707 for its DC8, that Airbus merely copied the Boeing 737 for its A320 and that Bombardier merely copied the latter for its C Series, and so on.
 
sovietjet
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:13 pm

Soviet aircraft in general did not have a worse safety record. The people saying this here really need to open up and actually READ the statistics.

The reason these manufacturers more or less disappeared is the economic crisis in the 1990s and 2000s. Their designs from before 1991 were not optimized to be the most efficient and instead were built with ruggedness, rough field operations and simplicity in mind. This made them heavier and less fuel efficient. When the airlines began operating under a different financial system the aircraft gradually became more and more uneconomical. Keep in mind that high bypass turbofans only started appearing in very limited quanitites in the USSR in the 1980s, by which point the Western designs were already using them en masse. In the 1990s, several designs came out of Russia (like the Il-96 and Tu-204), but the economical problems were too great for these to be a success.
 
dcaviation
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:44 pm

sovietjet wrote:
Soviet aircraft in general did not have a worse safety record. The people saying this here really need to open up and actually READ the statistics.

The reason these manufacturers more or less disappeared is the economic crisis in the 1990s and 2000s. Their designs from before 1991 were not optimized to be the most efficient and instead were built with ruggedness, rough field operations and simplicity in mind. This made them heavier and less fuel efficient. When the airlines began operating under a different financial system the aircraft gradually became more and more uneconomical. Keep in mind that high bypass turbofans only started appearing in very limited quanitites in the USSR in the 1980s, by which point the Western designs were already using them en masse. In the 1990s, several designs came out of Russia (like the Il-96 and Tu-204), but the economical problems were too great for these to be a success.


So please tell us about the continued success of Sukhoi SSJ
 
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Dalavia
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:59 pm

dcaviation wrote:
sovietjet wrote:
Soviet aircraft in general did not have a worse safety record. The people saying this here really need to open up and actually READ the statistics.

The reason these manufacturers more or less disappeared is the economic crisis in the 1990s and 2000s. Their designs from before 1991 were not optimized to be the most efficient and instead were built with ruggedness, rough field operations and simplicity in mind. This made them heavier and less fuel efficient. When the airlines began operating under a different financial system the aircraft gradually became more and more uneconomical. Keep in mind that high bypass turbofans only started appearing in very limited quanitites in the USSR in the 1980s, by which point the Western designs were already using them en masse. In the 1990s, several designs came out of Russia (like the Il-96 and Tu-204), but the economical problems were too great for these to be a success.


So please tell us about the continued success of Sukhoi SSJ


Well, for a start, I can tell you that the SSJ is not a Soviet design.
 
jellyhead
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:15 pm

tu204 wrote:
dcaviation wrote:
Why did you add PZL to the design bureau? PZL was never part of any soviet program.
Couple of PZL factories built planes for Antonov (AN-2 about 10k of them, and AN-28 few hundred of them).
MiG 15/17 and 19 were built in Poland on a license. MiGs destined for PoAF were called Lim, and MiGs destined for soviet AF were called MiG.
Keep in mind that most of the soviet designs were stolen from the West. They've made poor copies of most of the planes.


Going to ignore that last uneducated part of your post. :roll:

PZL and Let also participated as it was part of the Economic Cooperation within the socialist states. So although Antonov designed the AN2, PZL got the contract to mass produce. Same goes with the Mi-2 helicopter.

Let would be a bit different, as for they in cooperation with TsAGI designed and then produced the L29, L39 and L410.

With the L410 many believe that the decision to select the L410 as a short range "commuter" was political, to give the Czech incentive and that the competing Soviet designs (Beriev and Antonov's) were technically superior.


What a load of total BS, obviously u know absolutely nothing about the history of designing, engineering or manufacturing airplanes in former Warsaw pact nations, Aero Vodochody airplanes especially so please avoid any rediculous comments on this topic. TsAGI had absolutely nothing to do with the design of neither L29, L39 nor L410 - all those were solely designed by Czechoslovaks and were directly competing with soviet designs of that era and were far superior, which was the reason they went into mass production and became the bestsellers(even in the soviet market and whatever followed afterwards). Soviets had zero positive contributions to the design or manufacture of those models, quite the opposite as they were always favoring their own designs. However even back then it was impossible to deny the obvious qualities of Delfins, Albatrosses and Turbolets. So in no way there was any superior competing model from neither Antonov nor Beriev at that time. But should you have any proofs of your claims, please go ahead and publish those as I am sure we all are excited about those and would like to get educated.
 
dcaviation
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:39 pm

Dalavia wrote:
dcaviation wrote:
sovietjet wrote:
Soviet aircraft in general did not have a worse safety record. The people saying this here really need to open up and actually READ the statistics.

The reason these manufacturers more or less disappeared is the economic crisis in the 1990s and 2000s. Their designs from before 1991 were not optimized to be the most efficient and instead were built with ruggedness, rough field operations and simplicity in mind. This made them heavier and less fuel efficient. When the airlines began operating under a different financial system the aircraft gradually became more and more uneconomical. Keep in mind that high bypass turbofans only started appearing in very limited quanitites in the USSR in the 1980s, by which point the Western designs were already using them en masse. In the 1990s, several designs came out of Russia (like the Il-96 and Tu-204), but the economical problems were too great for these to be a success.


So please tell us about the continued success of Sukhoi SSJ


Well, for a start, I can tell you that the SSJ is not a Soviet design.


The point is that nobody wants to fly Russian/Soviet planes. It's a good example. SSJ was created with cooperation of Finnmechannica, Western company, yet nobody wants to buy them. Interjet wants to dump them, CityJet is done with them, and after couple of crashes, only Aeroflot will stick to them. Why? Because they didnt change and they are still like in the Soviet era, they have to promote "local" product.
 
strfyr51
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:52 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Flyingsottsman wrote:
I have been fascinated about the old Soviet Airliners of the 60s, 70s and 80's. What ever happened to the Ilysuhin, Tupolev, Antonov and Yakovlev company, are they still in business today? I remember seeing my first ever Aeroflot IL 62 at Heathrow back in 1988 and my first TU 154 at Heathrow it belonging to Tarom. So wondering what ever happened to these plane makers?


They crashed and burned. Just like Russia. Their products were evaluated by a worldwide commercial aviation market and were found to be inferior in both quality and reliability. Potential airline buyers shunned Soviet-built commercial aircraft and spoke with their wallets, choosing instead to buy from Airbus and Boeing. The Capitalist free market won.

Just for the sake of arguing, where they really inferior in quality and reliability?
You have to remember that they were built to handle the rough weather in Northern Soviet Union, poorly prepared/unprepared runways and the sort. Their economics were most likely poor compared to the Western planes (highly fuel consumption mainly); but, all things being equal, were they really that much worse?

I can't tell you Russian built airplanes are inferior because I never got to see a C5A next to an AN-124 But I have seen both the AN124 and the IL62 up close and personal at SFO on a number of occasions and the IL-62 was a tank with wings, it was Noisy as Heck though I would think it was suited for the Russian and Eastern European weather and conditions. I actually do know some former Russian Mechanics who now reside in the USA and have A&P licenses, All of them were very superior mechanics though they tended to be very gruff and did not like to share information readily unless questioned.
 
CowAnon
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:34 pm

The aircraft makers were consolidated in the previous decade into a large holding company, the United Aircraft Company, but the brands/divisions still mostly exist within that structure.

https://leehamnews.com/2016/09/16/bjorn ... companies/

Same thing occurred with the engine makers - they're now a part of the United Engine Company.

https://leehamnews.com/2016/09/23/bjorn ... companies/
 
sovietjet
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:32 pm

dcaviation wrote:
So please tell us about the continued success of Sukhoi SSJ


I didn't mention anywhere that the SSJ is a success. The economic situation in Russia, although vastly improved from the 1990s, still has an effect on the development of the SSJ. Regardless, it was an improvement and a stepping stone towards the future where a Russian built aircraft can truly be competitive on the world market. The biggest problem with the SSJ, from what I know, is not its performance or how fuel efficient it is, but rather the customer service from Sukhoi. And the fact that people need to get over the stupid "fear" of flying on Russian airplanes.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:49 pm

Soviet aircraft designs were great for what they were: rugged, creative, and easy-to-maintain. It's sort of like the T-34 tank: it broke down constantly, but they were still easier to keep in operation than German equivalents because they were so much easier to fix. Even if the designs met their needs, no airlines would have bought from Russian manufacturers in the early 1990s because there was no assurance that the companies would still be around to service them in five years, let alone 25. The other thing worth remembering is that they were built for a very different economic and regulatory environment. The Soviet Union was a major oil exporter, and its aircraft operators did not need to pay western market prices for fuel. That's why fuel economy was never a serious priority. Noise and environmental regulations were also basically nonexistent, and for obvious reasons there was not the same political space for people to object to noise over their homes.
 
WorldFlier
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:56 pm

DLPMMM wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Ty134A wrote:


As far as I understand Tu-4 was basically the same as Li-2, based on licence agreements. Rolls Royce Nene was indeed, as far as I can remember, backengineered and therefore can indeed be argued to be a copy, although again, it was not exactly copied, but used to design the VK-1 and later in china from the VK-1 the WP-5.

What I want to express ist the fact that it is impossible to copy an aircraft. Building an airliner has a lot to do with knowledge akquired over decades. For me, it is impossible to, let's say, backengineer a B707 to a Shanghai Y-10. The more one is familiar with aviation, the less one would conclude that the Y-10 is a B707 copy. Backengineered maybe, but a copy, no.

Not really.
The Lisunov Li-2 was a license-built Douglas DC-3; the Tupolev Tu-4 was a reverse-engineered Boeing B-29 (no license was given).

As far as "copies from the West", you can add:
- Tu-4 (mentioned above): reverse-engineered B-29;
- Klimov RD-10: reverse-engineered Jumo 004;
- RD-20: reverse-engineered BMW 003;
- Klimov VK-1 and RD-500: unlicensed modified copies of the Rolls-Royce Nene and Derwent V respectively.
Those examples date back to shortly after WW2 (so, yeah, old news) and the USSR did their own indigenous work after that; but it gave them a jump-start.
Note that the USSR wasn't the only one to do things like this: the German intellectual property of WW2 was properly pillaged by the victors and used in their own countries.

But remember: sometimes, copies can improve from the original.


How about "Concordski"...That was definitely a copy....and I don't think it was an improvement,


The TU-144 flew first *AND* was larger. Tote's a copy...
 
smokeybandit
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:18 pm

Any background on why Russia had such a model for the designer not to be the manufacturer? Was there some communist methodology influence there or just the way they decided to do it?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:38 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
Any background on why Russia had such a model for the designer not to be the manufacturer? Was there some communist methodology influence there or just the way they decided to do it?

It was a common model for WW2. For example, Ford built the largest US factory for aircraft production without knowing what they were building. GM factories were limited, due to their primary role for automobile manufacturing. Since Grumman put gear on the body, that was a great fit for FM1/2 (F4F Wildcat simplified for mass production) or TBM/TBF (I forget which code was GM).

The nacient Soviet aircraft industry sprung up in a prepare for war (ie WW2), fast obsolescence era. Factories that made LaGGs were quickly converted to divebombers, factories alternated what they made based on what worked. Factories built to make licensed DC-3s were swapped to bombers.

In a centralized economy, why wouldn't you make use of factories that can produce civil aircraft in peace time for military in war? Instead of appropriating civil factories owned by the state, all were just state factories.

Think of it as an early outsourcing. Under Soviet direction, the factories were always kept busy. Recall there were no mass layoffs (a la Boeing 1970s), just a reallocation. Until the system collapsed.

Manufacturing and design are different groups.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:04 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
DLPMMM wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Not really.
The Lisunov Li-2 was a license-built Douglas DC-3; the Tupolev Tu-4 was a reverse-engineered Boeing B-29 (no license was given).

As far as "copies from the West", you can add:
- Tu-4 (mentioned above): reverse-engineered B-29;
- Klimov RD-10: reverse-engineered Jumo 004;
- RD-20: reverse-engineered BMW 003;
- Klimov VK-1 and RD-500: unlicensed modified copies of the Rolls-Royce Nene and Derwent V respectively.
Those examples date back to shortly after WW2 (so, yeah, old news) and the USSR did their own indigenous work after that; but it gave them a jump-start.
Note that the USSR wasn't the only one to do things like this: the German intellectual property of WW2 was properly pillaged by the victors and used in their own countries.

But remember: sometimes, copies can improve from the original.


How about "Concordski"...That was definitely a copy....and I don't think it was an improvement,


The TU-144 flew first *AND* was larger. Tote's a copy...

First doesn’t mean jack. They stole designs and used them on the airframe. It doesn’t have to be an exact copy for there to have been espionage.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
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Ty134A
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:12 pm

smokeybandit wrote:
Any background on why Russia had such a model for the designer not to be the manufacturer? Was there some communist methodology influence there or just the way they decided to do it?


It mostly had to do with WW2 and the fact that in the Soviet Union, there was the desire to shift and switch manufacturing capabilities geografically. When Germany invaded the Soviet Union, they had to move a lot of their industry relatively quickly behind the Ural Mountains... this was a lesson learned and still remains within the strategy of current Russian defence doctirne - understandable with NATO moving in on Russia.

So by seperating most of the processes of airliner creation from design to flight testing, they were as a whole, centralized country much more flexible and to be fair, it made a lot of sense.
TU3/5,T20,IL8/6/W/9,I14,YK4/2,AN2/4,A26,A28,A38,A40,A81,SU9,L4T,L11,D1C,M11,M80/2/7,
AB4/6,318-321,313,332/3,342/3/5/6,712,703,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,741/L/2/3/4,752/3,763,
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WorldFlier
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:28 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
DLPMMM wrote:

How about "Concordski"...That was definitely a copy....and I don't think it was an improvement,


The TU-144 flew first *AND* was larger. Tote's a copy...

First doesn’t mean jack. They stole designs and used them on the airframe. It doesn’t have to be an exact copy for there to have been espionage.


And they added canards and change the position of the engines and they made it bigger?

C'mon man. Aerodynamics dictates airframe design. TSAGI has been a world leader in Aerodynamics for over 50 years! I get everyone loves to say that Russia can't come up with anything on their own, but to say that they were able to

1) Steal from the Europeans one of the most secret designs
2) Catch up and beat them to a first flight
3) Make it bigger and make significant design changes such as the position of the engines, canards, and the cockpit...
4) Gave it a faster top speed by .07 Mach
5) Made 5-abreast seating vs 4

Seriously? They did *ALL* of that after stealing some blueprints? Wow. That's impressive.

Next you'll tell me the TU-160 is a knock off of the B-1 because both have variable wings and a similar profile (and again the Russkies made a much larger "knock-off")

Image



Looking at the Chinese trying to steal F-22 designs and putting out a [expletive deleted] imitation called the J-20 looks quaint by comparison.
 
Starfuryt
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:53 pm

It's quite amazing how many people just see the world in black and white, us and them. There is no denying that the Soviet Union probably stole/copied/reverse engineered some of the western designs. At the same time I doubt many western aircraft could operate in the environments where the Tu-154 routinely flew for decades.
The reliability and accident rates were as much product of the harsh Russian weather and the toll it took as the party's push to make new aircraft faster and without proper oversight, shortcuts were taken, there is plenty of information available to read on the subject.
Many such shortcuts were taken with the Tu-144. But to everyone who is saying it's a mere copy of the concorde, I invite to go to the drawing board and design a supersonic aircraft and chances are it will look like the concorde. There is plenty of information on the screw ups of the Tu-144, most of which simply came from trying to beat the west.

-Mikhail
 
WayexTDI
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:39 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
DLPMMM wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Not really.
The Lisunov Li-2 was a license-built Douglas DC-3; the Tupolev Tu-4 was a reverse-engineered Boeing B-29 (no license was given).

As far as "copies from the West", you can add:
- Tu-4 (mentioned above): reverse-engineered B-29;
- Klimov RD-10: reverse-engineered Jumo 004;
- RD-20: reverse-engineered BMW 003;
- Klimov VK-1 and RD-500: unlicensed modified copies of the Rolls-Royce Nene and Derwent V respectively.
Those examples date back to shortly after WW2 (so, yeah, old news) and the USSR did their own indigenous work after that; but it gave them a jump-start.
Note that the USSR wasn't the only one to do things like this: the German intellectual property of WW2 was properly pillaged by the victors and used in their own countries.

But remember: sometimes, copies can improve from the original.


How about "Concordski"...That was definitely a copy....and I don't think it was an improvement,


The TU-144 flew first *AND* was larger. Tote's a copy...

AND the first one to have a major accident.
AND the first one to be retired.
Your point?
 
aviationaware
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:06 pm

workhorse wrote:
DLPMMM wrote:
How about "Concordski"...That was definitely a copy....and I don't think it was an improvement,


Well, let's check it out.

One has engines under the wings, the other all close to each other under the fuselage. One has canards, the other doesn't. One is 65.7 m long and 28.8 m wide, the other 61.66 m long and 25.6 m wide.

Definitely a copy. Bad Russian thieves.


To assert that the 144 was not a copy is just plain ludicrous. Don't embarrass yourself. The only reason they had to add canards was that they didn't manage to get the aerodynamics down.

A copy isn't the same as a carbon copy. Obviously the Soviets got some documents on Concorde and worked from them. Doesn't mean they got the entire blueprints and just reconstructed it.

The 144 was undoubtedly a copy, and a very poor one at that. Inferior to Concorde in pretty much every aspect.

Now, that's not to say the Soviets weren't able to improve on western designs - somebody mentioned Buran, which was certainly in many aspects a better thought-through design than the Space Shuttle. But that doesn't make it any less of a copy of the latter.
 
WorldFlier
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Re: What happened to the Soviet Airliner manufacturers?

Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:13 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
DLPMMM wrote:

How about "Concordski"...That was definitely a copy....and I don't think it was an improvement,


The TU-144 flew first *AND* was larger. Tote's a copy...

AND the first one to have a major accident.
AND the first one to be retired.
Your point?


The Soviets built indigenous machines that were comparable to the West in performance. Maybe the system and harsh conditions made them "less reliable" or they guzzled more fuel (not a capitalist system, so who cares about efficiency).

See: TU-144, TU-95, SU-27, MiG-29, IL-62, TU-124, AN-124, AN-225, MiG-15, MiG-31, and many many more.

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