Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
skipness1E
Topic Author
Posts: 5013
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:43 pm

From the relaunch of Ryanair as a proper ULCC, Micheal O'Leary's goal was to keep the business as simple as possible, flying one type on one AOC with one class and one business model. Now as a mature business, we see the group having four AOCs. Ryanair, Ryanair UK is a result of Brexit and reflects EZY/EUJ splitting AOCs at easyJet, however RYR now also have added Buzz and Malta Air, neither of which have any brand affiliation with Ryanair.

I am struggling a little to understand the thinking here.
Why is the government of Malta so keen to fund Ryanair to extent of helping set up an airline, which will compete with Air Malta? Way was Ryanair Sun rebranded at all? The Buzz brand has zero market awareness in Poland, are Ryanair trying to distance themselves from.....Ryanair? Or is it just a way to pay existing staff even less? Anyone have some insight? Do we see either new airline still going in a few years?

Also, what does the new Lauda bring to the table that continued growth at Ryanair cannot? Have costs just ballooned at mainline?
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 1577
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:55 pm

Lauda was purchased in part because the Ryanair brand had become somewhat tarnished in German speaking countries

Ryanair Sun / Buzz is about trying to hire pilots + cabin crew on lower salaries than mainstream Ryanair
 
MCTSET
Posts: 244
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:45 pm

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:10 pm

Exactly each subsidiary is made for a different reason. Lauda to experiment with 320 and jump on a known local brand. Buzz to reduce labour costs. Malta air is the unusual one, I am not exactly sure what they are trying to achieve with this subsidiary.
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2668
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:12 pm

Malta Air I believe is the brainchild of a creative way to reduce costs by setting up a "Malta-based' subsidiary that takes care of a large number of current (and successful) FR routes to appease the local government (who I am sure would be more than willing to discount further services AND TAXATION if the new airline promises to use locally sourced personnel), and *in part* follows the much-desired Maltese government strategy to somehow find a way to di-vest from loss-making Air Malta.... I am betting that in a few years the Maltese government, as Malta Air will become stronger and bigger, will end all funding and support for the ailing old flag carrier, and KM will finally cease to be. Cue that the new Malta Air will proudly be wearing the Maltese cross from day one on their tails....a sign of things to come me thinks!

Also, let's rest assured that anything Ryanair does, is probably a solidly-calculated risk, and in no way poses a great financial risk to the group.

Lauda was an effective, cheap, ready-to-go 'buy' that could literally launch from one day to the next with a willing and professional workforce, and gain the group instant access to Vienna (and in future to a chunk of the German-speaking market) with a strong brand.

Buzz is a name for which FR was holding the rights anyway, and costs them nothing, apart from the paint jobs. It's a simple gimmick to enable them to hire *even cheaper* personnel under Polish labour laws. Win-win situation.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5890
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:25 pm

It is obvious that Air Malta and Malta Air will merge at some point. Just look at their list of destinations; there is basically zero overlap.
 
skipness1E
Topic Author
Posts: 5013
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:43 pm

So why not fold Lauda into Ryanair? Why run another AOC?
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2322
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:46 pm

skipness1E wrote:
So why not fold Lauda into Ryanair? Why run another AOC?



To whipsaw the employees into lower wages. It should be considered extortion as its nothing by manufactured competition.

"lauda does it cheaper/ontime/better, you guys better take a pay cut or we'll move this flying over to them"

Same business model as the regionals in the US.
 
Galwayman
Posts: 1043
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:48 pm

Ryanair will not be competing with Air Malta, in essence Malta Airlines will be rescuing and subsidising bloated Air Malta . Without FR Air Malta would definitely be closing down...with outrageous uncompetitive salaries and unproductive working practices
 
Galwayman
Posts: 1043
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:48 pm

duplicate
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5497
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:08 pm

It is entirely a ploy to break the unions who have had won ground recently with strikes.

Stop paying your money to them, they would just as happily screw you over too.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8325
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:15 pm

This whole thread illustrates why US carriers with ALPA contracts have the dreaded scope clauses. None of this, beyond regionals, exists in the US because of them. JVs and regionals eroded some of the protections but still a negotiated area.
 
User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1991
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:30 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
This whole thread illustrates why US carriers with ALPA contracts have the dreaded scope clauses. None of this, beyond regionals, exists in the US because of them. JVs and regionals eroded some of the protections but still a negotiated area.


I think the scopes take it too far on the other side. Like, I completely understand their concerns about pay etc, but I don't get why so many restrictions are necessary though. I'm pretty sure they'd be able to be safe without a few of them. It ends up restricting profits on regional markets as the airlines keep making contraptions to avoid them (looking at the CRJ550 and the 70-seater CRJ900s and E175s etc). I think they should still be in place but dialed down a bit.
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:40 pm

Ryanair claim they lost 13.7 million from lost bookings due to industrial action by just Irish Pilots.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/tra ... -1.4057801

They have the choice of militant Unions striking every peak season until they are paying the highest salaries in Europe or break the Unions for once and for all. As a Low cost carrier you can understand why they want to break the Unions.because a LCC with high labour cost and the threat of disrupted services hanging over it 100% of the time doesn't have a future.
They can't afford to be flying around at 60% occupancy. They can't afford to be discounting to below cost to just fill the plane.
Their Customers need to know that each time a Union says that they will be striking that service will not be disrupted.
The alternative is an airline like KLM/AF where Management can't even be employed unless approved by the Union.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8325
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:48 pm

OA940 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
This whole thread illustrates why US carriers with ALPA contracts have the dreaded scope clauses. None of this, beyond regionals, exists in the US because of them. JVs and regionals eroded some of the protections but still a negotiated area.


I think the scopes take it too far on the other side. Like, I completely understand their concerns about pay etc, but I don't get why so many restrictions are necessary though. I'm pretty sure they'd be able to be safe without a few of them. It ends up restricting profits on regional markets as the airlines keep making contraptions to avoid them (looking at the CRJ550 and the 70-seater CRJ900s and E175s etc). I think they should still be in place but dialed down a bit.


The union has to define the scope of the work and technology and management keeps attacking it, so the cycle goes. Section 1 Scope used to be a couple paragraphs long and largely overlooked. It said all flying under the xxx corporation, its subsidiaries, and any successors shall be flown by pilots on the ALPA seniority in this contract. Simple, then came the deluge of commuters flying Navajos, then came the larger turboprops, finally regional jets and bankruptcy. The union isn’t a union without defining what work will be done.
 
User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1991
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:01 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
OA940 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
This whole thread illustrates why US carriers with ALPA contracts have the dreaded scope clauses. None of this, beyond regionals, exists in the US because of them. JVs and regionals eroded some of the protections but still a negotiated area.


I think the scopes take it too far on the other side. Like, I completely understand their concerns about pay etc, but I don't get why so many restrictions are necessary though. I'm pretty sure they'd be able to be safe without a few of them. It ends up restricting profits on regional markets as the airlines keep making contraptions to avoid them (looking at the CRJ550 and the 70-seater CRJ900s and E175s etc). I think they should still be in place but dialed down a bit.


The union has to define the scope of the work and technology and management keeps attacking it, so the cycle goes. Section 1 Scope used to be a couple paragraphs long and largely overlooked. It said all flying under the xxx corporation, its subsidiaries, and any successors shall be flown by pilots on the ALPA seniority in this contract. Simple, then came the deluge of commuters flying Navajos, then came the larger turboprops, finally regional jets and bankruptcy. The union isn’t a union without defining what work will be done.


Yeah, but I mean the US3 scopes feel too much. IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm by no means an expert) but Horizon and Skywest for AS pilots have a pretty lax scope (IIRC just the classic 76-seats restriction, and I think not even a weight one). That seems pretty solid and I haven't heard any complaints from them. I don't get why the US3 unions need to have restrictions on the seat count, weight AND number of jets the airline can operate. It's just too much
 
Sean-SAN-
Posts: 817
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2002 4:02 pm

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:11 pm

Scope in the US is why an American ULCC FO makes more than a Ryanair CA and the typical Euro LCC pilot gets paid less than a legacy US flight attendant. It's turned the pilot career in Europe into a joke, with the only good jobs going to the well connected. As labor friendly as Europeans claim to be, it does not translate to the airline industry.
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:28 pm

Scope is a restrictive practice. A restrictive practice would be outlawed by the competition authorities if Companies were the ones who conspired to introduce it to the detriment of Consumers across an industry.
 
Delta777Jet
Posts: 1478
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2000 6:19 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:52 pm

So that basically means than Ryanair can avoid all the current contracts with higher salary with the deal of the unions buy just letting Malta Air take over all flights for Ryanair in Germany for example ! The crews abs unions would have to start all over.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8325
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:03 pm

OA940 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
OA940 wrote:

I think the scopes take it too far on the other side. Like, I completely understand their concerns about pay etc, but I don't get why so many restrictions are necessary though. I'm pretty sure they'd be able to be safe without a few of them. It ends up restricting profits on regional markets as the airlines keep making contraptions to avoid them (looking at the CRJ550 and the 70-seater CRJ900s and E175s etc). I think they should still be in place but dialed down a bit.


The union has to define the scope of the work and technology and management keeps attacking it, so the cycle goes. Section 1 Scope used to be a couple paragraphs long and largely overlooked. It said all flying under the xxx corporation, its subsidiaries, and any successors shall be flown by pilots on the ALPA seniority in this contract. Simple, then came the deluge of commuters flying Navajos, then came the larger turboprops, finally regional jets and bankruptcy. The union isn’t a union without defining what work will be done.


Yeah, but I mean the US3 scopes feel too much. IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm by no means an expert) but Horizon and Skywest for AS pilots have a pretty lax scope (IIRC just the classic 76-seats restriction, and I think not even a weight one). That seems pretty solid and I haven't heard any complaints from them. I don't get why the US3 unions need to have restrictions on the seat count, weight AND number of jets the airline can operate. It's just too much


Yes, AS has a very lax scope clause and mgt could send lots of flying over to Horizon or another carrier killing AS pilot numbers. So far, they haven’t, but there’s no restriction from the company from converting half of their flying to 76 seaters at Horizon.
 
User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1991
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:06 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
OA940 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

The union has to define the scope of the work and technology and management keeps attacking it, so the cycle goes. Section 1 Scope used to be a couple paragraphs long and largely overlooked. It said all flying under the xxx corporation, its subsidiaries, and any successors shall be flown by pilots on the ALPA seniority in this contract. Simple, then came the deluge of commuters flying Navajos, then came the larger turboprops, finally regional jets and bankruptcy. The union isn’t a union without defining what work will be done.


Yeah, but I mean the US3 scopes feel too much. IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm by no means an expert) but Horizon and Skywest for AS pilots have a pretty lax scope (IIRC just the classic 76-seats restriction, and I think not even a weight one). That seems pretty solid and I haven't heard any complaints from them. I don't get why the US3 unions need to have restrictions on the seat count, weight AND number of jets the airline can operate. It's just too much


Yes, AS has a very lax scope clause and mgt could send lots of flying over to Horizon or another carrier killing AS pilot numbers. So far, they haven’t, but there’s no restriction from the company from converting half of their flying to 76 seaters at Horizon.


Yeah but I doubt that would be very convenient for them. I doubt two 175 is more profitable than one 737 or A320, or if it's worth the extra slots.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8325
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:06 pm

leghorn wrote:
Scope is a restrictive practice. A restrictive practice would be outlawed by the competition authorities if Companies were the ones who conspired to introduce it to the detriment of Consumers across an industry.


Not restrictive at all, it’s a legal union contract between two parties that doesn’t restrict any party outside of them. If DL has one, the UA pilot group is not forced to agree to one, they could allow 1,000 A220 jets to be flown by one of the regionals under contract to UA and commit career suicide.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8325
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:09 pm

OA940 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
OA940 wrote:

Yeah, but I mean the US3 scopes feel too much. IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm by no means an expert) but Horizon and Skywest for AS pilots have a pretty lax scope (IIRC just the classic 76-seats restriction, and I think not even a weight one). That seems pretty solid and I haven't heard any complaints from them. I don't get why the US3 unions need to have restrictions on the seat count, weight AND number of jets the airline can operate. It's just too much


Yes, AS has a very lax scope clause and mgt could send lots of flying over to Horizon or another carrier killing AS pilot numbers. So far, they haven’t, but there’s no restriction from the company from converting half of their flying to 76 seaters at Horizon.


Yeah but I doubt that would be very convenient for them. I doubt two 175 is more profitable than one 737 or A320, or if it's worth the extra slots.


Look at what several lines did post-9/11, grounded DC-9s and 737 size fleets and sent the flying over to regionals for a decade. Young, wet commercial pilots were suddenly “airline pilots” carrying bags with Guppy Killer stickers. Up in the air, junior birdmen!
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:13 pm

Delta777Jet wrote:
So that basically means than Ryanair can avoid all the current contracts with higher salary with the deal of the unions buy just letting Malta Air take over all flights for Ryanair in Germany for example ! The crews abs unions would have to start all over.

They're moving to operating under something akin to flags of convenience as is done in the shipping industry.
The pilots didn't believe Ryanair would do this and would be dragged to a negotiating table under the threat of continuing industrial unrest costing them hundreds of million euro each year.
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:21 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
leghorn wrote:
Scope is a restrictive practice. A restrictive practice would be outlawed by the competition authorities if Companies were the ones who conspired to introduce it to the detriment of Consumers across an industry.


Not restrictive at all, it’s a legal union contract between two parties that doesn’t restrict any party outside of them. If DL has one, the UA pilot group is not forced to agree to one, they could allow 1,000 A220 jets to be flown by one of the regionals under contract to UA and commit career suicide.

an arrangement in industry or trade that restricts competition between firms....is a restrictive practice and that is why air travel is so expensive in the U.S. The airlines are helpless cash collectors that funnel wealth to the Union members.
 
chrisair
Posts: 2230
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2000 11:32 pm

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:21 pm

OA940 wrote:
That seems pretty solid and I haven't heard any complaints from them [AS].


Alaska management at Angle Lake certainly isn't complaining, especially since they can use Skywest to bid down flying costs from Horizon.

Talk to many Alaska pilots (PMVX or PMAS), and you'll probably get a different story. But hey, I'm just an impartial observer watching many of my routes being moved to QX or OO.
 
User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1991
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:32 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
OA940 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Yes, AS has a very lax scope clause and mgt could send lots of flying over to Horizon or another carrier killing AS pilot numbers. So far, they haven’t, but there’s no restriction from the company from converting half of their flying to 76 seaters at Horizon.


Yeah but I doubt that would be very convenient for them. I doubt two 175 is more profitable than one 737 or A320, or if it's worth the extra slots.


Look at what several lines did post-9/11, grounded DC-9s and 737 size fleets and sent the flying over to regionals for a decade. Young, wet commercial pilots were suddenly “airline pilots” carrying bags with Guppy Killer stickers. Up in the air, junior birdmen!


Valid point, I agree there need to be some restrictions as to what can pass off as regional flying (Egyptair trying to pass off an A220-300 as a regional jet is an especially good point), but apart from that I don't see the necessity of this many restrictions. I think slapping on a 76-seat restriction would be enough to prevent the mainline carriers from outsourcing their 120+ seater 737/A320/717/A220 fleets.

chrisair wrote:
OA940 wrote:
That seems pretty solid and I haven't heard any complaints from them [AS].


Alaska management at Angle Lake certainly isn't complaining, especially since they can use Skywest to bid down flying costs from Horizon.

Talk to many Alaska pilots (PMVX or PMAS), and you'll probably get a different story. But hey, I'm just an impartial observer watching many of my routes being moved to QX or OO.


How much do they actually overlap with/replace mainline routes tho? I assume if it was a big enough problem they'd actually do something, though, once again, I'm not very familiar with how it all works over there. I get that the situation with contractors is far from ideal, but it's how it works. I doubt the feasibility of shutting them all down so we're stuck with this, and considering the lower pay that's what makes the scopes necessary, but what I don't understand is how adding weight, number etc. restrictions helps out anyone. The logic of ''they could then use cheap regionals for 90% of their mainline flights'' isn't really solid in practice, and there are few routes where mainline flying could be replaced by regional jets where the airline would benefit in the end.
 
Salina Chan
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2001 3:24 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:23 pm

Delta777Jet wrote:
So that basically means than Ryanair can avoid all the current contracts with higher salary with the deal of the unions buy just letting Malta Air take over all flights for Ryanair in Germany for example ! The crews abs unions would have to start all over.


actually, no. the Malta Air AOC has (in parts) been created as a vehicle to switch to local contracts in Germany and especially falling under local taxation and social contributions. Apparently, it is easier to pay pilots in Germany through Malta Air and to have reasonable deductions for social security and social contributions than it would have been with the old Irish contracts. A key demand of pilots in Germany was to switch to German contracts to get a more favorable net out of their gross. The CLA signed with VC includes Malta Air as a party, therefore, it should not be possible for Ryanair to undercut the salaries in Germany. Having said that, Laudamotion however is clearly a vehicle to alleviate the pressure Ryanair is under due to bad press in Germany while having the beneficial side effect of a lower cost base than the German CLA.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8325
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:34 pm

leghorn wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
leghorn wrote:
Scope is a restrictive practice. A restrictive practice would be outlawed by the competition authorities if Companies were the ones who conspired to introduce it to the detriment of Consumers across an industry.


Not restrictive at all, it’s a legal union contract between two parties that doesn’t restrict any party outside of them. If DL has one, the UA pilot group is not forced to agree to one, they could allow 1,000 A220 jets to be flown by one of the regionals under contract to UA and commit career suicide.

an arrangement in industry or trade that restricts competition between firms....is a restrictive practice and that is why air travel is so expensive in the U.S. The airlines are helpless cash collectors that funnel wealth to the Union members.


First, air travel here isn’t expensive and is considerably less than it was even 10 years ago in real dollars. Second, it is a restraint of trade as the scope clause doesn’t bind outside parties. Scope clauses do not reduce competition between airlines. If UA and DL joined with the respective their MECs to create a scope clause common to both, it would be illegal.
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:02 pm

So you are basically saying the unions are acting in concert circumventing the law using their equivalent of separate AOCs.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8325
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:53 pm

They’re .NOT circumventing the law—scope clauses are expressly contemplated in the Railway Labor Act that governs the contract. Stop making up legal opinions that have no basis in law.

The clauses have been in ALPA contracts for, at least, 60 years. Don’t you think they would have been successfully challenged if they are, as you assert, illegal restraints of trade?

GF
 
chrisair
Posts: 2230
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2000 11:32 pm

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:34 am

OA940 wrote:
How much do they actually overlap with/replace mainline routes tho?


For Alaska take a look at where the E175s are flying. Off the top of my head routes that they overlap or transition with mainline: SEA-GEG/SLC/PDX/SJC/SFO/BOI/LAX/BUR/ONT/SBA. From PDX overlap or transition is on SJC/SFO/PHX/BUR/ONT/DFW (which comes and goes).

Don't get me wrong, I love the E175. It's a wonderful plane from a passenger's perspective. I just don't like Alaska using Skywest or the E175s to whipsaw Horizon or mainline. It's sure as hell better than them setting up something like Ryanair or seemingly every other European airline that has an Austrian, Irish, Hungarian or whatever subsidiary that really just kills pilot and FA wages.
 
skipness1E
Topic Author
Posts: 5013
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:17 am

OK a lot of union hate from people who've never needed one :)

But seriously, all well and good suggesting it's being done to force down wages, but there's going to be a clear hit in revenue as neither Buzz nor Malta Air are known in market. Indeed how Malta Air was ever allowed when there's an actual Air Malta is beyond me, the cannibalisation of the older brand is inevitable.

Will tickets for the new AOCs be sold on ryanair.com or not?
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 12191
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:28 am

skipness1E wrote:
Indeed how Malta Air was ever allowed when there's an actual Air Malta is beyond me, the cannibalisation of the older brand is inevitable.

As been explained Malta Air is being set up in cooperation with the Malta Government with the not so subtle intention to eventually replace heavily loss making Air Malta. The government doesn’t care if it cannibalizes the older brand, that is actually preferred. It is a back door way to partially privatize their national airline.
 
User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1991
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:39 am

chrisair wrote:
OA940 wrote:
How much do they actually overlap with/replace mainline routes tho?


For Alaska take a look at where the E175s are flying. Off the top of my head routes that they overlap or transition with mainline: SEA-GEG/SLC/PDX/SJC/SFO/BOI/LAX/BUR/ONT/SBA. From PDX overlap or transition is on SJC/SFO/PHX/BUR/ONT/DFW (which comes and goes).

Don't get me wrong, I love the E175. It's a wonderful plane from a passenger's perspective. I just don't like Alaska using Skywest or the E175s to whipsaw Horizon or mainline. It's sure as hell better than them setting up something like Ryanair or seemingly every other European airline that has an Austrian, Irish, Hungarian or whatever subsidiary that really just kills pilot and FA wages.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they mainly use the 175 in place of the mainline jets in routes where it makes sense, and use them for more profitable routes instead? So basically pilot jobs aren't affected? Of course it's bad for contractors to be used so the airline has to pay pilots less but I'm pretty sure that's inevitable, but I feel like without the 175 most of the routes it currently flies on wouldn't be in place.

Also contractor pilots get the ability to transition to mainline after they've gotten the required hours/experience/whatever right?
 
skipness1E
Topic Author
Posts: 5013
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:59 am

Polot wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Indeed how Malta Air was ever allowed when there's an actual Air Malta is beyond me, the cannibalisation of the older brand is inevitable.

As been explained Malta Air is being set up in cooperation with the Malta Government with the not so subtle intention to eventually replace heavily loss making Air Malta. The government doesn’t care if it cannibalizes the older brand, that is actually preferred. It is a back door way to partially privatize their national airline.

Or close it down?
Loss making is sometimes worthwhile in some economies, if Thai was closed tomorrow, would the economy of Thailand actually be in a better place overall? Seeing everything through the narrow lense of neo-liberal Western-US-centric unshackled capitalism is often sub par, and I say that as a moderately right wing sort of chap....

But thanks for some good replies all
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 12191
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:14 pm

skipness1E wrote:
Polot wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Indeed how Malta Air was ever allowed when there's an actual Air Malta is beyond me, the cannibalisation of the older brand is inevitable.

As been explained Malta Air is being set up in cooperation with the Malta Government with the not so subtle intention to eventually replace heavily loss making Air Malta. The government doesn’t care if it cannibalizes the older brand, that is actually preferred. It is a back door way to partially privatize their national airline.

Or close it down?
Loss making is sometimes worthwhile in some economies, if Thai was closed tomorrow, would the economy of Thailand actually be in a better place overall? Seeing everything through the narrow lense of neo-liberal Western-US-centric unshackled capitalism is often sub par, and I say that as a moderately right wing sort of chap....

But thanks for some good replies all

Malta is part of the “neo-liberal Western-US-centric unshackled capitalism” organization known as the EU. They are not allowed to continuously bail out Air Malta, and Malta does not have the political strength/capital to have the rest of the EU turn a blind eye if they are constantly violating state aid rules. Private parties generally want to avoid the mess that is Air Malta.

Malta air will be partially government owned. The hope is that with Ryanair’s involvement it will be profitable, while still bringing tourist to Malta and boosting the local economy. Then Malta can wash their hands of Air Malta with minimal impact on their economy.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8325
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:13 pm

OA940 wrote:
chrisair wrote:
OA940 wrote:
How much do they actually overlap with/replace mainline routes tho?


For Alaska take a look at where the E175s are flying. Off the top of my head routes that they overlap or transition with mainline: SEA-GEG/SLC/PDX/SJC/SFO/BOI/LAX/BUR/ONT/SBA. From PDX overlap or transition is on SJC/SFO/PHX/BUR/ONT/DFW (which comes and goes).

Don't get me wrong, I love the E175. It's a wonderful plane from a passenger's perspective. I just don't like Alaska using Skywest or the E175s to whipsaw Horizon or mainline. It's sure as hell better than them setting up something like Ryanair or seemingly every other European airline that has an Austrian, Irish, Hungarian or whatever subsidiary that really just kills pilot and FA wages.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they mainly use the 175 in place of the mainline jets in routes where it makes sense, and use them for more profitable routes instead? So basically pilot jobs aren't affected? Of course it's bad for contractors to be used so the airline has to pay pilots less but I'm pretty sure that's inevitable, but I feel like without the 175 most of the routes it currently flies on wouldn't be in place.

Also contractor pilots get the ability to transition to mainline after they've gotten the required hours/experience/whatever right?


No, QX pilots apply to AS like anyone else as far as I know.

GF
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:27 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
They’re .NOT circumventing the law—scope clauses are expressly contemplated in the Railway Labor Act that governs the contract. Stop making up legal opinions that have no basis in law.

The clauses have been in ALPA contracts for, at least, 60 years. Don’t you think they would have been successfully challenged if they are, as you assert, illegal restraints of trade?

GF

You are ducking and diving here because you refuse to admit that the Unions work to in unison to enforce terms on all airlines to their benefit which makes Consumers pay more than they otherwise would.
The very idea of Airlines not being constrained because they are "allowed" fly loads of 76 seater planes themselves or through third parties without the punitive mainline salary scales is an absolute joke.

Ryanair will not lose out on brand recognition with other AOCs as they can all be booked through the same website booking engine with a note as to which carrier is operating the flight. This has already been happening since the acquisition of Laudamotion.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2322
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:33 pm

OA940 wrote:
chrisair wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Also contractor pilots get the ability to transition to mainline after they've gotten the required hours/experience/whatever right?


For the most part, no.

Mesa, Compass, Republic, Skywest and a few more have no transition plans for their pilots. It's a dual class system and shameful for the airlines.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8325
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:01 pm

leghorn wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
They’re .NOT circumventing the law—scope clauses are expressly contemplated in the Railway Labor Act that governs the contract. Stop making up legal opinions that have no basis in law.

The clauses have been in ALPA contracts for, at least, 60 years. Don’t you think they would have been successfully challenged if they are, as you assert, illegal restraints of trade?

GF

You are ducking and diving here because you refuse to admit that the Unions work to in unison to enforce terms on all airlines to their benefit which makes Consumers pay more than they otherwise would.
The very idea of Airlines not being constrained because they are "allowed" fly loads of 76 seater planes themselves or through third parties without the punitive mainline salary scales is an absolute joke.

Ryanair will not lose out on brand recognition with other AOCs as they can all be booked through the same website booking engine with a note as to which carrier is operating the flight. This has already been happening since the acquisition of Laudamotion.


You’re the one ducking and diving here—suddenly it’s not a legal argument, it’s unions acting in unison. Of course, they do, BUT it’s legal under the RLA. Unions have to define the wrk environment thru their working agreements, part of that is who flies what. If they can’t do that the result is the nasty horrible situation like ?Ryan Air, where pilots buy their jobs thru contracting agencies, the business can duck responsibility by blaming the agencies and the pilots as individual contractors. If the price of avoiding that mess is scope clausescand somewhat higher fares, so be it. I don’t want airlines shuffling pilots and bases like a deck of cards.

Ever hear of pattern bargaining? Are you familiar with US law and ALPA history?
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:16 pm

What legal argument have I made? I likened an AOC/Airline to a unit on which labour restrictions are imposed. For the Ryanair group or IAG it is the Airline Holding group which imposes the restrictions for airlines in the U.S. it is the Union or Unions who have happened to get their claws in to that AOC/Airline.
I have no interest in the restrictive practices of the US Airline Industry but thankful that it hasn't taken hold in Europe as it allows the Citizens of European Countries to travel more widely and at lower cost while allowing the airlines to explore the viability of the type of routes that wouldn't ever be considered in the U.S.
Anti-Consumer restrictive practices should be banned. The interests of the Consumer are paramount....that isn't an invitation to you to construct a untrue but plausible sounding narrative about how the Unions are doing all this to help their passengers.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 8325
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:51 pm

leghorn wrote:
So you are basically saying the unions are acting in concert circumventing the law using their equivalent of separate AOCs.


How about this post?
 
leghorn
Posts: 1297
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:46 pm

Are you familiar with a Barrister's "opinion"? This ain't it.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10869
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Ryanair Group - Split AOC Strategy

Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:32 pm

Of course the employees and the consumers are the same people.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos