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ikolkyo
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Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:48 pm

Top executives at global airlines and lessors, including many who were thought to be likely large launch carriers for the NMA (which would eventually become the 797), have soured on the idea of Boeing’s 220 to 270-seat twin-aisle concept and are privately pushing for a successor to the 737 Max and the aging fleet of 757s


Behind the scenes, Boeing has been recently briefing a small handful of U.S., European and leasing customers on an all-new aircraft — dubbed the Future Small Airplane (FSA) — whose first models would notionally be 180 to 210-seats. That’s larger than the 737 Max 8, which seats 162 passengers in a two-class configuration.


There is a paywall.

I find it very interesting airlines are pushing for FSA over the NMA.

https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-deve ... placement/
 
musman9853
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:57 pm

yeah before the max issue i thought nma was a surety. now, after spending tens of billions on the max, spending 15B on the nma makes less and less sense.
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:58 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Top executives at global airlines and lessors, including many who were thought to be likely large launch carriers for the NMA (which would eventually become the 797), have soured on the idea of Boeing’s 220 to 270-seat twin-aisle concept and are privately pushing for a successor to the 737 Max and the aging fleet of 757s


Behind the scenes, Boeing has been recently briefing a small handful of U.S., European and leasing customers on an all-new aircraft — dubbed the Future Small Airplane (FSA) — whose first models would notionally be 180 to 210-seats. That’s larger than the 737 Max 8, which seats 162 passengers in a two-class configuration.


There is a paywall.

I find it very interesting airlines are pushing for FSA over the NMA.

https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-deve ... placement/


Why doesn't Boeing just ask "What do you want your next airplane to be?"
 
IAmGaroott
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:17 pm

ILNFlyer wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Top executives at global airlines and lessors, including many who were thought to be likely large launch carriers for the NMA (which would eventually become the 797), have soured on the idea of Boeing’s 220 to 270-seat twin-aisle concept and are privately pushing for a successor to the 737 Max and the aging fleet of 757s


Behind the scenes, Boeing has been recently briefing a small handful of U.S., European and leasing customers on an all-new aircraft — dubbed the Future Small Airplane (FSA) — whose first models would notionally be 180 to 210-seats. That’s larger than the 737 Max 8, which seats 162 passengers in a two-class configuration.


There is a paywall.

I find it very interesting airlines are pushing for FSA over the NMA.

https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-deve ... placement/


Why doesn't Boeing just ask "What do you want your next airplane to be?"


That’s pretty much how the MAX happened. Boeing wanted to start a clean sheet design but the A32Xneo family caused 737 customers to force their hand.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:20 pm

ILNFlyer wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Top executives at global airlines and lessors, including many who were thought to be likely large launch carriers for the NMA (which would eventually become the 797), have soured on the idea of Boeing’s 220 to 270-seat twin-aisle concept and are privately pushing for a successor to the 737 Max and the aging fleet of 757s


Behind the scenes, Boeing has been recently briefing a small handful of U.S., European and leasing customers on an all-new aircraft — dubbed the Future Small Airplane (FSA) — whose first models would notionally be 180 to 210-seats. That’s larger than the 737 Max 8, which seats 162 passengers in a two-class configuration.


There is a paywall.

I find it very interesting airlines are pushing for FSA over the NMA.

https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-deve ... placement/


Why doesn't Boeing just ask "What do you want your next airplane to be?"


That doesn't commonly lead to innovation. You get small-step (small-minded) incremental improvements.

It’s really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don’t know what they want until you show it to them.

— Steve Jobs
 
P1aneMad
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:23 pm

It would be funny if among the airlines telling Boeing to shelve the NMA and start work on the NSA pronto is Southwest and American.

Who could have thought that what would kill the NMA's business case wouldn't be the A321XLR and possible A322 but the MAX!
Last edited by P1aneMad on Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Oykie
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:26 pm

Interesting development. I am curious how much of the development that has been put into NMA, can be changes into the FSA. Do you believe they have to start from scratch, or can they still EIS 2025?
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majano
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:26 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Top executives at global airlines and lessors, including many who were thought to be likely large launch carriers for the NMA (which would eventually become the 797), have soured on the idea of Boeing’s 220 to 270-seat twin-aisle concept and are privately pushing for a successor to the 737 Max and the aging fleet of 757s


Behind the scenes, Boeing has been recently briefing a small handful of U.S., European and leasing customers on an all-new aircraft — dubbed the Future Small Airplane (FSA) — whose first models would notionally be 180 to 210-seats. That’s larger than the 737 Max 8, which seats 162 passengers in a two-class configuration.


There is a paywall.

I find it very interesting airlines are pushing for FSA over the NMA.

https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-deve ... placement/

Why isn't this just medged into the existing thread? Some corners of A.net have been discussing this for some time. Without a confirmation from Boeing, this is still rumour / speculation.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:56 pm

I've always thought it would be more of an 737/757 replacement than an an 767 replacement.

A tight light 7W with two different sets of Wings/Gear/Tail for NSA/NMA - it made more sense to do NMA first but maybe they reverse that now.
 
raylee67
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:57 pm

And when Boeing confirms it will develop a clean sheet MAX replacement, all Airbus needs to do is to stretch the A220 to develop a 160-seat A220-500. The A220 will then effectively becomes the A318/A319/A320 "clean-sheet" replacement, while the A321NEO stays on with another stretch to make the A322NEO, which together will be the replacement of 757s.
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Noshow
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:02 pm

Is there any new mid size engine coming up that would make a step change cost improvement possible for a clean sheet small Boeing?
Could just a brand new (CFRP?) new small airframe with A220/A321neo-generation engines be cost competitive versus high rate production Airbuses?

If Boeing should end the MAX early how is this affecting their planned business case?
Last edited by Noshow on Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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william
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:03 pm

raylee67 wrote:
And when Boeing confirms it will develop a clean sheet MAX replacement, all Airbus needs to do is to stretch the A220 to develop a 160-seat A220-500. The A220 will then effectively becomes the A318/A319/A320 "clean-sheet" replacement, while the A321NEO stays on with another stretch to make the A322NEO, which together will be the replacement of 757s.


Or you can start a new thread about that...............
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:03 pm

IAmGaroott wrote:
ILNFlyer wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

There is a paywall.

I find it very interesting airlines are pushing for FSA over the NMA.

https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-deve ... placement/


Why doesn't Boeing just ask "What do you want your next airplane to be?"


That’s pretty much how the MAX happened. Boeing wanted to start a clean sheet design but the A32Xneo family caused 737 customers to force their hand.


It wasn't the customers who caused Boeing to design the MCAS system that used non-redundant inputs from sensors to for a fly by wire system.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:05 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
IAmGaroott wrote:
ILNFlyer wrote:

Why doesn't Boeing just ask "What do you want your next airplane to be?"


That’s pretty much how the MAX happened. Boeing wanted to start a clean sheet design but the A32Xneo family caused 737 customers to force their hand.


It wasn't the customers who caused Boeing to design the MCAS system that used non-redundant inputs from sensors to for a fly by wire system.


What in the world does MCAS have to do with the decision that launched the MAX program?
 
DarthLobster
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:05 pm

raylee67 wrote:
And when Boeing confirms it will develop a clean sheet MAX replacement, all Airbus needs to do is to stretch the A220 to develop a 160-seat A220-500. The A220 will then effectively becomes the A318/A319/A320 "clean-sheet" replacement, while the A321NEO stays on with another stretch to make the A322NEO, which together will be the replacement of 757s.


Let’s just stretch everything into infinity. At some point these narrowbody airframes have to reach a length limit...
 
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william
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:08 pm

morrisond wrote:
I've always thought it would be more of an 737/757 replacement than an an 767 replacement.

A tight light 7W with two different sets of Wings/Gear/Tail for NSA/NMA - it made more sense to do NMA first but maybe they reverse that now.


Yeah, thats what I am thinking, NMA's project direction is being changed. In essence making a 737-8/9/10 replacement without saying so. Could explain SWA's announcement looking at aircraft that not a 737.

Embraer takes design lead on aircraft that will replace E2 through 737-7.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:17 pm

william wrote:
morrisond wrote:
I've always thought it would be more of an 737/757 replacement than an an 767 replacement.

A tight light 7W with two different sets of Wings/Gear/Tail for NSA/NMA - it made more sense to do NMA first but maybe they reverse that now.


Yeah, thats what I am thinking, NMA's project direction is being changed. In essence making a 737-8/9/10 replacement without saying so. Could explain SWA's announcement looking at aircraft that not a 737.

Embraer takes design lead on aircraft that will replace E2 through 737-7.


That's my thought as well - a 5W makes a lot of sense in that space - you can still get 4W up front in Business Class and carry around less structure in the back for 5W Y cattle class where there is little to no profit.
Last edited by morrisond on Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:19 pm

Noshow wrote:
Is there any new mid size engine coming up that would make a step change cost improvement possible for a clean sheet small Boeing?
Could just a brand new (CFRP?) new small airframe with A220/A321neo-generation engines be cost competitive versus high rate production Airbuses?

If Boeing should end the MAX early how is this affecting their planned business case?


That's the problem and why NMA might still be done first as ultimate engine efficiency won't be as critical as it will be in more of a unique space.

The next gen NB engines that are a step change probably won't be available until about 2030 - lots of time to do NMA first and base NSA off of that.
 
P1aneMad
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:20 pm

Can the E2 be stretched to cover the up to 160 seats market in non ULCC (28-29 inch) configurations?
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:27 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
Can the E2 be stretched to cover the up to 160 seats market in non ULCC (28-29 inch) configurations?


Pretty sure Embraer recently said the -195E2 was the limit.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:34 pm

Not considering what is possible technically. here are my thoughts.

A 120-200 seat narrow-body, 5000-6000nm bleedless.

I think a decent medium-haul range without payload restriction and tech stops will give an edge.

Hourly operating cost similar to 737 on short-haul, and far less than any widebody on 8-9hr missions. This will further stimulate thin long routes.

Drop the CASM crap. Focus on trip costs.

I think it's about time Boeing starts using bleedless technology as a selling point.

The slogan should be "No one wants to breath engine fumes".

On a side note: Decide the fate of 777X quickly. Don't burn cash on another niche plane.
Last edited by dtw2hyd on Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
nycbjr
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:36 pm

I know a bunch has been said about how the engines aren't really there yet to launch a 737 replacement, but why not launch it with an improved GTF or what have you now, and then re-engine it when they come out? This way the production system is in place, customers are happy flying them, and there won't be gear issues as I would hope future re-engines are engineered into the new airframe. I know its development costs would be crazy, and I guess it would kill the max backlog....
 
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Erebus
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:49 pm

I was one of those who thought that Boeing might have been able to pull off the NMA business case but just barely, albeit a different timeline. But with Boeing getting hella burned by the MAX disaster, I don't think it would be wise for them to take on another risky project for now. They need to shore up their narrowbody strategy.
 
DenverTed
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:56 pm

I'm assuming this is switching from a twin aisle to a single aisle 3-3. An all new Aluminum fuselage with a wider cross section than the 737. Engines? Whatever's out there, but hard to see how much more investment goes into non-geared architecture. Wing? Will they copy the A321 wing and try to max out the capability within a 36m span, or do folding wingtips? Almost certainly the wing will be CFRP.
Basically they're tasked with building a better lighter A321, what percentage gains remains to be seen, but with a huge market, Boeing needs to be there sooner than later. I always liked the 2-2-2 seating plan, since it has some advantages in loading, circulation, upselling lots of aisle seats, and has growth potential to 753 and beyond lengths. But I guess some large airlines would have to sign on to that. So more tyranny of the single aisle, and fear and loathing in the middle seat.
 
DenverTed
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:00 pm

And I guess the most important point is that they are building a sub 3,000nm airliner, instead of a 4,500nm NMA.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:12 pm

It is a 2030 project. The 757 replacement market is done, where they do not want to miss out is when the A321CEOs and 737-900s are up for replacement and they need to avoid being surprised by Airbus again. After the NEO, the last thing they need is Airbus launching a re-winged A320 with improved engines while Boeing is still undecided about a FSA.
 
lee757
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:21 pm

The 757 & 767 were developed alongside each other, shame Boeing didn't do this with the 787 and 7X7.
Last edited by lee757 on Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:22 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Not considering what is possible technically. here are my thoughts.

A 120-200 seat narrow-body, 5000-6000nm bleedless.

I think a decent medium-haul range without payload restriction and tech stops will give an edge.

Hourly operating cost similar to 737 on short-haul, and far less than any widebody on 8-9hr missions. This will further stimulate thin long routes.

Drop the CASM crap. Focus on trip costs.

I think it's about time Boeing starts using bleedless technology as a selling point.

The slogan should be "No one wants to breath engine fumes".

On a side note: Decide the fate of 777X quickly. Don't burn cash on another niche plane.


You do know bleed air comes from the compressor, not the turbine sections?

GF
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:23 pm

william wrote:
Yeah, thats what I am thinking, NMA's project direction is being changed. In essence making a 737-8/9/10 replacement without saying so. Could explain SWA's announcement looking at aircraft that not a 737.


morrisond wrote:
That's my thought as well - a 5W makes a lot of sense in that space - you can still get 4W up front in Business Class and carry around less structure in the back for 5W Y cattle class where there is little to no profit.


Except what Gary Kelly said was that Southwest would look at sourcing planes from a supplier that isn't Boeing and he also confirmed they wouldn't be looking at a smaller aircraft. That would kind of narrow the field somewhat and not where you want.
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airbazar
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:25 pm

Why is this a surprise? Boeing has been trying to push the NMA for years. Years! And no one bought it.
Now we're supposed to find this to be newsworthy?
 
9w748capt
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:26 pm

morrisond wrote:
william wrote:
morrisond wrote:
I've always thought it would be more of an 737/757 replacement than an an 767 replacement.

A tight light 7W with two different sets of Wings/Gear/Tail for NSA/NMA - it made more sense to do NMA first but maybe they reverse that now.


Yeah, thats what I am thinking, NMA's project direction is being changed. In essence making a 737-8/9/10 replacement without saying so. Could explain SWA's announcement looking at aircraft that not a 737.

Embraer takes design lead on aircraft that will replace E2 through 737-7.


That's my thought as well - a 5W makes a lot of sense in that space - you can still get 4W up front in Business Class and carry around less structure in the back for 5W Y cattle class where there is little to no profit.


Oh yeah the usual nonsense where Y pax aren't profitable. I'm guessing you don't fly on last minute tickets often or into airports that don't have ULCC competition. Because a last minute paying Y passenger is likely more profitable than a discount F customer.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:30 pm

scbriml wrote:
william wrote:
Yeah, thats what I am thinking, NMA's project direction is being changed. In essence making a 737-8/9/10 replacement without saying so. Could explain SWA's announcement looking at aircraft that not a 737.


morrisond wrote:
That's my thought as well - a 5W makes a lot of sense in that space - you can still get 4W up front in Business Class and carry around less structure in the back for 5W Y cattle class where there is little to no profit.


Except what Gary Kelly said was that Southwest would look at sourcing planes from a supplier that isn't Boeing and he also confirmed they wouldn't be looking at a smaller aircraft. That would kind of narrow the field somewhat and not where you want.


We were talking about an smaller Embraer built plane below the NSA to go after the C-series and 737-700 market.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:34 pm

lee757 wrote:
The 757 & 767 were developed alongside each other, shame Boeing didn't do this with the 787 and 7E7.

Boeing couldn't develop the 787 & 7E7 alongside each other since the 787 was originally known as the 7E7...
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:35 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
I find it very interesting airlines are pushing for FSA over the NMA.

I find it very interesting that this happens a week or so after Kevin McAllister is sacked and Stan Deal takes over.

DenverTed wrote:
And I guess the most important point is that they are building a sub 3,000nm airliner, instead of a 4,500nm NMA.

How do you know this to be true, no one has quoted that here.

Does it make sense to build an all new plane 20 to 50 seats larger than 738-8 then give it sub-3,000nm range?
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morrisond
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:35 pm

9w748capt wrote:
morrisond wrote:
william wrote:

Yeah, thats what I am thinking, NMA's project direction is being changed. In essence making a 737-8/9/10 replacement without saying so. Could explain SWA's announcement looking at aircraft that not a 737.

Embraer takes design lead on aircraft that will replace E2 through 737-7.


That's my thought as well - a 5W makes a lot of sense in that space - you can still get 4W up front in Business Class and carry around less structure in the back for 5W Y cattle class where there is little to no profit.


Oh yeah the usual nonsense where Y pax aren't profitable. I'm guessing you don't fly on last minute tickets often or into airports that don't have ULCC competition. Because a last minute paying Y passenger is likely more profitable than a discount F customer.


See above - 5W makes a lot of sense below 737-8/A320 in size - how about you aren't carrying around all that extra structure to carry around those 4W business class seats then.

Business class in the new Delta A220's looks nice and efficient.

https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/delta-s ... n-atlanta/
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:36 pm

ILNFlyer wrote:

Why doesn't Boeing just ask "What do you want your next airplane to be?"


They did just that.

And they found there was a market for a Middle of Market aircraft between the 737 and 787 sizes.

However, that was before the MAX troubles.

Now it seems the market is more interested in a 737/757 replacement.

Which makes a lot of sense, and it's something many of us in these forums have been saying for a while.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:38 pm

Revelation wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
I find it very interesting airlines are pushing for FSA over the NMA.

I find it very interesting that this happens a week or so after Kevin McAllister is sacked and Stan Deal takes over.

DenverTed wrote:
And I guess the most important point is that they are building a sub 3,000nm airliner, instead of a 4,500nm NMA.

How do you know this to be true, no one has quoted that here.

Does it make sense to build an all new plane 20 to 50 seats larger than 738-8 then give it sub-3,000nm range?


Correct.

And it also doesn't make sense to give it 4-5,000 NM range for the SouthWest's of the world if you are going after the 757 market - unless you accommodate both with two sets of wings/capabilities. NSA and NMA as a combined program using the same cross section.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:42 pm

seahawk wrote:
It is a 2030 project. The 757 replacement market is done, where they do not want to miss out is when the A321CEOs and 737-900s are up for replacement and they need to avoid being surprised by Airbus again. After the NEO, the last thing they need is Airbus launching a re-winged A320 with improved engines while Boeing is still undecided about a FSA.


You can almost bet Airbus will do this sooner than later. It will be hard to counter with some expensive and first risky new design.
Last edited by Noshow on Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:43 pm

scbriml wrote:
morrisond wrote:
scbriml wrote:



Except what Gary Kelly said was that Southwest would look at sourcing planes from a supplier that isn't Boeing and he also confirmed they wouldn't be looking at a smaller aircraft. That would kind of narrow the field somewhat and not where you want.


We were talking about an smaller Embraer built plane below the NSA to go after the C-series and 737-700 market.


william specifically talked about the subject of this thread being applicable to Southwest looking at alternatives to the 737. I pointed out that Southwest said they were looking at a non-Boeing planes and not a smaller one.


And Scbriml took my quote out of context - from up further

Here is the exchange see posts #16 and 17

" william wrote:
morrisond wrote:
I've always thought it would be more of an 737/757 replacement than an an 767 replacement.

A tight light 7W with two different sets of Wings/Gear/Tail for NSA/NMA - it made more sense to do NMA first but maybe they reverse that now.


Yeah, thats what I am thinking, NMA's project direction is being changed. In essence making a 737-8/9/10 replacement without saying so. Could explain SWA's announcement looking at aircraft that not a 737.

Embraer takes design lead on aircraft that will replace E2 through 737-7."
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:07 pm

scbriml wrote:
william wrote:
Yeah, thats what I am thinking, NMA's project direction is being changed. In essence making a 737-8/9/10 replacement without saying so. Could explain SWA's announcement looking at aircraft that not a 737.


morrisond wrote:
That's my thought as well - a 5W makes a lot of sense in that space - you can still get 4W up front in Business Class and carry around less structure in the back for 5W Y cattle class where there is little to no profit.


Except what Gary Kelly said was that Southwest would look at sourcing planes from a supplier that isn't Boeing and he also confirmed they wouldn't be looking at a smaller aircraft. That would kind of narrow the field somewhat and not where you want.


I believe from this interview everything is on the table https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-HcFKa_2KQ
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:09 pm

Sounds like some A321neo order is coming up to me.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:34 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
I think it's about time Boeing starts using bleedless technology as a selling point.


Agreed. Bleedless is the future and I'm surprised that Boeing hasn't made a bigger deal about it considering their innovation in this field on the 787. Especially as we hear more and more about Aerotoxins.
First to fly the 787-9
 
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william
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:35 pm

Will be interesting to see what the new FSA is. Boeing is going to be keen on changing the narrative, and what better way than a strong launch of a new aircraft. A big people hauler that efficient, sitting just above the A321 but designed for domestic routes and maybe trans Atlantic.

And I agree with some of the other posters that this seems to be the new head of Commercial picking up the phone calling some blue chip customers and this what they want.
 
Oykie
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:37 pm

lee757 wrote:
The 757 & 767 were developed alongside each other, shame Boeing didn't do this with the 787 and 7X7.


What if Boeing tried to develop the FSA and NMA as a combo like they did with the 757/767?
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:43 pm

airbazar wrote:
Why is this a surprise? Boeing has been trying to push the NMA for years. Years! And no one bought it.
Now we're supposed to find this to be newsworthy?


Not really.

United and Delta were tripping over each other to be launch customer ........ except they didn't know what it was. Boeing have talked about the NMA for years, but have never commited to a precise deign, capacity, capability, engines, entry into service etc. The entire project was talk with no commitment. United's more recent statements have hinted that they are slowly loosing patience with Boeing to make their mind up. As the Boeing board never approved the NMA to be offered for sale it is no surprise no one bought it.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
DenverTed
Posts: 384
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:51 pm

Revelation wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
I find it very interesting airlines are pushing for FSA over the NMA.

I find it very interesting that this happens a week or so after Kevin McAllister is sacked and Stan Deal takes over.

DenverTed wrote:
And I guess the most important point is that they are building a sub 3,000nm airliner, instead of a 4,500nm NMA.

How do you know this to be true, no one has quoted that here.

Does it make sense to build an all new plane 20 to 50 seats larger than 738-8 then give it sub-3,000nm range?

Sorry, I should have said "I'm guessing". But if they are replacing the 737-8 and 737-10, then they will have competing design objectives to keep it light with a small wing, or get more capability(range) and go with a larger wing and powerplant.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:53 pm

I, for one, have never believed in the tight 7w (oval/ovoid or standard) because there is an inherent and fundamental disadvantage in terms of fuselage weight per passenger. Any weight saving measure that can be used to save weight from the 7w solution can be used on a 3-3 to similar effect.

In my opinion Boeing need to be careful and design a simple 180+ seat narrow body. Starting at the 738 size and making sure to almost underwing the machine, growth is easy, weight reduction is not. Aim for 3knm range, it will grow over time.

Fred


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Boeingphan
Posts: 213
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:29 am

Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:00 pm

Boeing's made so many terrible decisions of late I'm fairly confident they will screw this up as well. The reactionary play to do the Max rather than the NSA was terrible. The gaffe of not taking Bombardier's C-Series program seriously for next to nothing. I don't see Embraer's E-Series as something that is going to compete with Bombardiers/AB new 220-5. It just seems like they can't get out of their own way and to think they will be making a good decision on this program is questionable at best. If their recent history is any indication, they won't.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 373
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:01 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
lee757 wrote:
The 757 & 767 were developed alongside each other, shame Boeing didn't do this with the 787 and 7E7.

Boeing couldn't develop the 787 & 7E7 alongside each other since the 787 was originally known as the 7E7...


Yep!

The 7E7 of 2002 was looks like a 767 fuselage and doors with racked wingtip of the 767-400ER and the tailcone à la 777

https://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers/a ... 031_lg.jpg
 
Checklist787
Posts: 373
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:14 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
ILNFlyer wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

There is a paywall.

I find it very interesting airlines are pushing for FSA over the NMA.

https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-deve ... placement/


Why doesn't Boeing just ask "What do you want your next airplane to be?"


That doesn't commonly lead to innovation. You get small-step (small-minded) incremental improvements.

It’s really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don’t know what they want until you show it to them.

— Steve Jobs


Steve Jobs was a visionary.

For me, Boeing failed to close the NMA business case

They wanted to come up with a concept that was theirs

Now 767-X and FSA seems the plan B!
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