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ADL14
Posts: 13
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:53 pm

What should happen is they design a clean sheet 753-sized aircraft. Yes, the sweet spot has been around the Max-9/A321 size. But I feel that the real need is for a big narrowbody (220-240 as UA and DL have with the 753). It brings the weight efficiency needed versus a small widebody. I just don't think a shorthaul WB makes sense. And a capable small WB steps on the toes of the 788. But I do believe this NB would need range just past the 752 for short TATL.

Are there current engines for this?

Also:

1) The MAX will be fixed and flying a la DC-10. No need for replacement until 2030.
2) I haven't kept up on the 777X. But that size will be well-covered.
3) They will hopefully keep up on possible updates for the 787.

*Side note* I just flew DEN-ORD on a UA 753 and it is a wonderful flying machine!
 
musman9853
Posts: 961
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:56 pm

Etheereal wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
BTW, how can anybody take you seriously with that username? You are clearly biased. :duck:


There are like 6 people that can be taken seriously in this forum. Everyone else is pretty much biased towards one of the two companies.


How long until we have comac fans start to join i wonder?
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
musman9853
Posts: 961
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:59 pm

afgeneral wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Shouldn't this be an easy task for boeing?

Make an aircraft the size of B737-800 and B757-200. But combined them into a single family.
And then let Embraer took over the 150 seat market with E195-E2.

And voila, you got a winner.


Boeing hasn't built a clean sheet airplane without running into years of delays and $10s of billions in overruns since the 777.

"Voila" sounds more like Toulouse


there's only been one cleansheet... by the same logic airbus hasnt had a new cleansheet program not been delayed since the a330.
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:11 pm

Checklist787 wrote:

I bet Boeing is trying to justify a business case to build NMA / FSA / NSA / Y1 or call it what you want to be able to produce a brand new aircraft at very low costs.

I bet it's just the NMA that has been morphed to something similar to the NMA.
I bet again that the FSA will not be a "standard aircraft".

The 737MAX tragedy has just proved in Boeing that they must continue to innovate (767- / 777- / 787 / NMA-FSA) more than ever. In the end it does not matter the money because the 737 MAX has proven that a simple re-engined could cost an additional 10 billion USD.

The FSA will be neither a 737MAX nor a 757 family and even less an A32Xneo family ...

My feeling tells me that it will also be a twin aisles!

To be honest I think that NMA-6X was not effiscient while the Strech NMA-7X yes

I bet again that FSA-6X will be better than the NMA-6X and the FSA-7X will be a simple Strech so,
wings and tails will are smaller,
-it is a little smaller than the NMA in its characteristics hence the name FSA (future-SMALL-Aircraft) It does not necessarily mean "Small-Narrowbody" when you want to carry 210 seats in 2-class layout ,

The opposite does not make sense to me!


Oh oh !

-For those who think we are in fantasy! -

I did not know that the FSA had already appeared in 2018 in a Jon Ostrower Twitter which confirms itself not only FSA is not "really new" but that it confirms that it is NOT a "future single aisle " aircraft.

-For those who think we are in fantasy! -

Much to the chagrin of many who think so. I'm NOT responsible for the disappointment that it can cause...


" NMA isn’t the only Boeing acronym you need to know. Say hello to FSA, the Future Small Airplane (not Future Single Aisle) the eventual replacement to the 737."

Jon Ostrower
-April 9, 2018.


https://mobile.twitter.com/jonostrower/ ... 3483242496

-For those who think we are in fantasy! -

This is exactly what I did my bet and had the good feeling.

I won my bet then and i would like us to move forward in the discussion by taking into account that Boeing obviously does not change its innovation plan, but also in its low-cost manufacturing plan and philosophy / vision of a platform efficient to twin aisles. Whoever says it is the replacement of the 737MAX is a simple tube - Narrowbody, it can not be credible.

-For those who think we are in fantasy! -

The FSA shares common concept of the NMA in Seattle design offices!
Last edited by Checklist787 on Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:26 pm, edited 6 times in total.
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:16 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
B753 operators are holding on to them because they have a need for it.

I think that DL and UA would each definitely order 100 or more of a B753-sized B757X with Leap engines. B6. and AA are obvious candidates.
In Europe, the big 3 groups would be obvious contenders, but who knows what LCC's like U2, FR and W6 would do if they can get their hands on them.

TK and QR are obvious customers, Flydubai can't be ruled out.

China brings huge potential as well. Japan would be an obvious target, as well as any other major Asian economy.


There were only 55 757-300s built. The fact they're all still in service is not indicative of massive pent-up demand for such a frame. Whenever the possibility of stretching the A321 is brought up, one common argument always made against it is how long it takes to enplane and deplane a 753! :spin:

Anyway, there's no 757 being built for Boeing to MAXimise, re-wing or re-cockpit. It's gone and it isn't coming back.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Babyshark
Posts: 250
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:29 pm

Elementalism wrote:
The B757 was ahead of its time. The market has changed. The A321 is cleaning up so a B757 like aircraft is desired by the market. Also if the A321 was the true successor to the B757 why do airlines continue to hold onto their 757s and ask for its replacement?


Delta still has MD-88s. You hold on to things you already paid for.
 
Babyshark
Posts: 250
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:33 pm

msp747 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
The experience of the Comet and DC-10 suggest otherwise: that deeply flawed designs are sticky in the public consciousness and, indeed, become part of the zeitgeist.

Maybe it stuck with some people, but the fact that the DC-10 flew for another 30 years after the grounding shows that the flying public moved on. I don't think NW would have kept those birds flying well into the 2000's if a majority of travelers refused to set foot on them. I think the end of the DC-10 had a lot more to do with the ETOPS and the move to twin engine aircraft than it does with the early design problems and MCD's handling of them.


Back in those days there were also a lot more plane crashes. These days far more noticeable. The 73Max is famous for crashes and being grounded. When or IF it comes back that will all be back in the headlines.
 
SEU
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:50 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
Can the E2 be stretched to cover the up to 160 seats market in non ULCC (28-29 inch) configurations?


I doubt it, the 195E2 as long as a 737-900
 
SEU
Posts: 278
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:56 pm

Can Boeing even afford to do anything other than concentrate on the MAX right now?
 
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msp747
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:59 pm

Babyshark wrote:
msp747 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
The experience of the Comet and DC-10 suggest otherwise: that deeply flawed designs are sticky in the public consciousness and, indeed, become part of the zeitgeist.

Maybe it stuck with some people, but the fact that the DC-10 flew for another 30 years after the grounding shows that the flying public moved on. I don't think NW would have kept those birds flying well into the 2000's if a majority of travelers refused to set foot on them. I think the end of the DC-10 had a lot more to do with the ETOPS and the move to twin engine aircraft than it does with the early design problems and MCD's handling of them.


Back in those days there were also a lot more plane crashes. These days far more noticeable. The 73Max is famous for crashes and being grounded. When or IF it comes back that will all be back in the headlines.

I guess, and more people may avoid it than the DC 10, especially early on. However, as articles have shown, the majority of the flying public has no idea what they are flying on. It's far more likely that the average traveler will move past this, especially if there are no further incidents, than refuse to fly it years from now.

Also, why are you still using "IF?" All signs show that the plane is on the path back to being airborne, with the exact timeline being all that's in question. Can you show me something that says otherwise? It just seems odd, and based more on your personal feelings about the plane than reality.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2817
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:25 pm

SEU wrote:
Can Boeing even afford to do anything other than concentrate on the MAX right now?

There is only that many people who can work on the same system at the same time
And life goes on; once MAX crisis is over, Boeing will need a project which will make money, not loose it.
Widebodies are covered, with 767NG being planned, 777X hopefully on track, and 787
They need narrowbody to supplement/replace MAX, and need it well before 2030.... So it is high time to start it today, if that is not too late.
Expect it to roll slowly and quietly until MAX is back in service.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 3563
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:25 am

Checklist787 wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:

I bet Boeing is trying to justify a business case to build NMA / FSA / NSA / Y1 or call it what you want to be able to produce a brand new aircraft at very low costs.

I bet it's just the NMA that has been morphed to something similar to the NMA.
I bet again that the FSA will not be a "standard aircraft".

The 737MAX tragedy has just proved in Boeing that they must continue to innovate (767- / 777- / 787 / NMA-FSA) more than ever. In the end it does not matter the money because the 737 MAX has proven that a simple re-engined could cost an additional 10 billion USD.

The FSA will be neither a 737MAX nor a 757 family and even less an A32Xneo family ...

My feeling tells me that it will also be a twin aisles!

To be honest I think that NMA-6X was not effiscient while the Strech NMA-7X yes

I bet again that FSA-6X will be better than the NMA-6X and the FSA-7X will be a simple Strech so,
wings and tails will are smaller,
-it is a little smaller than the NMA in its characteristics hence the name FSA (future-SMALL-Aircraft) It does not necessarily mean "Small-Narrowbody" when you want to carry 210 seats in 2-class layout ,

The opposite does not make sense to me!


Oh oh !

-For those who think we are in fantasy! -

I did not know that the FSA had already appeared in 2018 in a Jon Ostrower Twitter which confirms itself not only FSA is not "really new" but that it confirms that it is NOT a "future single aisle " aircraft.

-For those who think we are in fantasy! -

Much to the chagrin of many who think so. I'm NOT responsible for the disappointment that it can cause...


" NMA isn’t the only Boeing acronym you need to know. Say hello to FSA, the Future Small Airplane (not Future Single Aisle) the eventual replacement to the 737."

Jon Ostrower
-April 9, 2018.


https://mobile.twitter.com/jonostrower/ ... 3483242496

-For those who think we are in fantasy! -

This is exactly what I did my bet and had the good feeling.

I won my bet then and i would like us to move forward in the discussion by taking into account that Boeing obviously does not change its innovation plan, but also in its low-cost manufacturing plan and philosophy / vision of a platform efficient to twin aisles. Whoever says it is the replacement of the 737MAX is a simple tube - Narrowbody, it can not be credible.

-For those who think we are in fantasy! -

The FSA shares common concept of the NMA in Seattle design offices!


So just so we are clear as to your position, you think that the small aircraft that is being proposed in the 180-220 seat category will be a twin aisle aircraft with the inherent fundamental weight disadvantages that this brings compared to a single aisle? Y/N?

Fred
Image
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:35 am

flipdewaf wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:

I bet Boeing is trying to justify a business case to build NMA / FSA / NSA / Y1 or call it what you want to be able to produce a brand new aircraft at very low costs.

I bet it's just the NMA that has been morphed to something similar to the NMA.
I bet again that the FSA will not be a "standard aircraft".

The 737MAX tragedy has just proved in Boeing that they must continue to innovate (767- / 777- / 787 / NMA-FSA) more than ever. In the end it does not matter the money because the 737 MAX has proven that a simple re-engined could cost an additional 10 billion USD.

The FSA will be neither a 737MAX nor a 757 family and even less an A32Xneo family ...

My feeling tells me that it will also be a twin aisles!

To be honest I think that NMA-6X was not effiscient while the Strech NMA-7X yes

I bet again that FSA-6X will be better than the NMA-6X and the FSA-7X will be a simple Strech so,
wings and tails will are smaller,
-it is a little smaller than the NMA in its characteristics hence the name FSA (future-SMALL-Aircraft) It does not necessarily mean "Small-Narrowbody" when you want to carry 210 seats in 2-class layout ,

The opposite does not make sense to me!


Oh oh !

-For those who think we are in fantasy! -

I did not know that the FSA had already appeared in 2018 in a Jon Ostrower Twitter which confirms itself not only FSA is not "really new" but that it confirms that it is NOT a "future single aisle " aircraft.

-For those who think we are in fantasy! -

Much to the chagrin of many who think so. I'm NOT responsible for the disappointment that it can cause...


" NMA isn’t the only Boeing acronym you need to know. Say hello to FSA, the Future Small Airplane (not Future Single Aisle) the eventual replacement to the 737."

Jon Ostrower
-April 9, 2018.


https://mobile.twitter.com/jonostrower/ ... 3483242496

-For those who think we are in fantasy! -

This is exactly what I did my bet and had the good feeling.

I won my bet then and i would like us to move forward in the discussion by taking into account that Boeing obviously does not change its innovation plan, but also in its low-cost manufacturing plan and philosophy / vision of a platform efficient to twin aisles. Whoever says it is the replacement of the 737MAX is a simple tube - Narrowbody, it can not be credible.

-For those who think we are in fantasy! -

The FSA shares common concept of the NMA in Seattle design offices!


So just so we are clear as to your position, you think that the small aircraft that is being proposed in the 180-220 seat category will be a twin aisle aircraft with the inherent fundamental weight disadvantages that this brings compared to a single aisle? Y/N?

Fred


According to J. Ostrower, the new FSA is a "small real Middle Of Market", in the other words, it's NOT a "Narrowbody"

If we fit more seat /density seat
your "inherent fundamental weight disadvantages that this brings" will do not exist!

If the A321neo can carry 1-class 240 seats @18-19" in /pitch

The Strech FSA-9X can carry 1-class 270 seats @18-19" in /pitch


Question :

-The inherent fundamental weight disadvantages that this brings

Answer : NO in this case

-The FSA-X/797-X is a "small real Middle Of Market" / NOT a Narrowbody

Answer : YES in this case

Thanks
Last edited by Checklist787 on Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
astuteman
Posts: 7146
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:38 am

flipdewaf wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:

I bet Boeing is trying to justify a business case to build NMA / FSA / NSA / Y1 or call it what you want to be able to produce a brand new aircraft at very low costs.

I bet it's just the NMA that has been morphed to something similar to the NMA.
I bet again that the FSA will not be a "standard aircraft".

The 737MAX tragedy has just proved in Boeing that they must continue to innovate (767- / 777- / 787 / NMA-FSA) more than ever. In the end it does not matter the money because the 737 MAX has proven that a simple re-engined could cost an additional 10 billion USD.

The FSA will be neither a 737MAX nor a 757 family and even less an A32Xneo family ...

My feeling tells me that it will also be a twin aisles!

To be honest I think that NMA-6X was not effiscient while the Strech NMA-7X yes

I bet again that FSA-6X will be better than the NMA-6X and the FSA-7X will be a simple Strech so,
wings and tails will are smaller,
-it is a little smaller than the NMA in its characteristics hence the name FSA (future-SMALL-Aircraft) It does not necessarily mean "Small-Narrowbody" when you want to carry 210 seats in 2-class layout ,

The opposite does not make sense to me!


Oh oh !

-For those who think we are in fantasy! -

I did not know that the FSA had already appeared in 2018 in a Jon Ostrower Twitter which confirms itself not only FSA is not "really new" but that it confirms that it is NOT a "future single aisle " aircraft.

-For those who think we are in fantasy! -

Much to the chagrin of many who think so. I'm NOT responsible for the disappointment that it can cause...


" NMA isn’t the only Boeing acronym you need to know. Say hello to FSA, the Future Small Airplane (not Future Single Aisle) the eventual replacement to the 737."

Jon Ostrower
-April 9, 2018.


https://mobile.twitter.com/jonostrower/ ... 3483242496

-For those who think we are in fantasy! -

This is exactly what I did my bet and had the good feeling.

I won my bet then and i would like us to move forward in the discussion by taking into account that Boeing obviously does not change its innovation plan, but also in its low-cost manufacturing plan and philosophy / vision of a platform efficient to twin aisles. Whoever says it is the replacement of the 737MAX is a simple tube - Narrowbody, it can not be credible.

-For those who think we are in fantasy! -

The FSA shares common concept of the NMA in Seattle design offices!


So just so we are clear as to your position, you think that the small aircraft that is being proposed in the 180-220 seat category will be a twin aisle aircraft with the inherent fundamental weight disadvantages that this brings compared to a single aisle? Y/N?

Fred


It would appear so.
But to me, all the Jon Ostrower tweet is intended to do is clarify what the acronym FSA stands for, not to imply that it is not a single aisle
The tweet clearly says it is the replacement for the 737.

Rgds
 
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scbriml
Posts: 19095
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:02 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
If the A321neo can carry 1-class 240 seats @18-19" in /pitch


18-19" pitch? :confused:

What are they carrying, 3 year olds?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:06 pm

astuteman wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:

Oh oh !

-For those who think we are in fantasy! -

I did not know that the FSA had already appeared in 2018 in a Jon Ostrower Twitter which confirms itself not only FSA is not "really new" but that it confirms that it is NOT a "future single aisle " aircraft.

-For those who think we are in fantasy! -

Much to the chagrin of many who think so. I'm NOT responsible for the disappointment that it can cause...


" NMA isn’t the only Boeing acronym you need to know. Say hello to FSA, the Future Small Airplane (not Future Single Aisle) the eventual replacement to the 737."

Jon Ostrower
-April 9, 2018.


https://mobile.twitter.com/jonostrower/ ... 3483242496

-For those who think we are in fantasy! -

This is exactly what I did my bet and had the good feeling.

I won my bet then and i would like us to move forward in the discussion by taking into account that Boeing obviously does not change its innovation plan, but also in its low-cost manufacturing plan and philosophy / vision of a platform efficient to twin aisles. Whoever says it is the replacement of the 737MAX is a simple tube - Narrowbody, it can not be credible.

-For those who think we are in fantasy! -

The FSA shares common concept of the NMA in Seattle design offices!


So just so we are clear as to your position, you think that the small aircraft that is being proposed in the 180-220 seat category will be a twin aisle aircraft with the inherent fundamental weight disadvantages that this brings compared to a single aisle? Y/N?

Fred


It would appear so.
But to me, all the Jon Ostrower tweet is intended to do is clarify what the acronym FSA stands for, not to imply that it is not a single aisle
The tweet clearly says it is the replacement for the 737.

Rgds


The tweet clearly says
... "The FSA is the EVENTUAL replacement to the 737!

The word" Eventual" don't guarantee a 737MAX replacement!

But we all know J. Ostrower reveal that the new FSA will carry 180 seats and 210 seat in a standard configuration 2-class.

It's ABOVE of a Narrowbody in term of seats!

Regards
Last edited by Checklist787 on Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 3563
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:07 pm

Checklist787 wrote:

According to J. Ostrower, the new FSA is a "small real Middle Of Market", in the other words, it's NOT a "Narrowbody"
Incorrect logic, the implication that the 'SA' refers to small aircraft and not single aisle does in no way confirm that it is not single aisle in the same way that if it was confirmed that it was 'Single aisle' would not show that it is not a small aircraft.
Checklist787 wrote:
If we fit more seat /density seat
your "inherent fundamental weight disadvantages that this brings" will do not exist!

Again, for clarity, are you saying that if you package the cabin to different standards then you can show different weights/seat?
Checklist787 wrote:

If the A321neo can carry 1-class 240 seats @18-19" in /pitch

The Strech FSA-9X can carry 1-class 270 seats @18-19" in /pitch



Question :

-The inherent fundamental weight disadvantages that this brings

Answer : NO in this case

This wasn't the question and if you want to show how you can overcome the increase hoop stresses involved in the wider fuselage which at a fundamental level increase with the square of the diameter compared to a relative reduction in length that extra seats bring that scales linearly with a resultant weight/unit area scaling with width, be my guest.
Checklist787 wrote:


-The FSA-X/797-X is a "small real Middle Of Market" / NOT a Narrowbody

Answer : Yes in this case

Saying it twice doesn't make it true, still just an opinion but the (only) question was if this opinion was your position?

Fred
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flipdewaf
Posts: 3563
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:11 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
The tweet clearly says
... "The FSA is the EVENTUAL replacement to the 737!

The word" Eventual" don't guarantee a 737MAX replacement!

But we all know J. Ostrower reveal that the new FSA will carry 180 seats and 210 seat in a standard configuration 2-class.

It's above of a Narrowbody in term of seats!

Regards

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_757#Specifications
Second Row in the Table "2-class seating"

Fred
Image
 
Pcoder
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:44 am

Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:11 pm

I've kind of got the feeling that in the development of the middle of the market plane, Boeing have discovered that its going to difficult to fully compete with the a321neo/LR/XLR and due to the twin aisle nature of the plane, it will end up competing with the a330neo and the 787 more than the a321neo. And since the 737-9 and above series is being outsold by the a321neo by a huge amount, a new single aisle will be required (and probably still the MoM as well) to fully compete with airbus.

I could very much see Boeing develop the stretch single aisle first and then to replace the smaller variants of the MAX with a shrunken version later.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:13 pm

scbriml wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
If the A321neo can carry 1-class 240 seats @18-19" in /pitch


18-19" pitch? :confused:

What are they carrying, 3 year olds?


OK thanks for your remark

It's 28"-29" inch @ pitch but nothing change for the A321neo and the new FSA capacity seats!

Thanks
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
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par13del
Posts: 10322
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:16 pm

RickNRoll wrote:
The Boeing management believed you could sack any number of skilled engineers to bump up the share price and rehire them like office clerks at any time.

I thought it was A.Net wisdom that they were bumping up the share price with the buy backs?
Terminating full time employees and bringing them back on a limited term contract is now the business norm, save money on all the benefits.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:17 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
The tweet clearly says
... "The FSA is the EVENTUAL replacement to the 737!

The word" Eventual" don't guarantee a 737MAX replacement!

But we all know J. Ostrower reveal that the new FSA will carry 180 seats and 210 seat in a standard configuration 2-class.

It's above of a Narrowbody in term of seats!

Regards

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_757#Specifications
Second Row in the Table "2-class seating"

Fred


Yes..
And..??
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
B764er
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:19 am

Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:36 pm

For a 767 replacement we already have the 787. The airlines want a new 757 so build them a new 757 using the technology already developed for the 787, or in other words, a narrow bodied 787. The only thing is that Boeing doesn't seem to yet know that they can build it.
 
B764er
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:19 am

Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:37 pm

As for the 737, it's time to replace it.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:37 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
The tweet clearly says
... "The FSA is the EVENTUAL replacement to the 737!

The word" Eventual" don't guarantee a 737MAX replacement!

But we all know J. Ostrower reveal that the new FSA will carry 180 seats and 210 seat in a standard configuration 2-class.

It's above of a Narrowbody in term of seats!

Regards

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_757#Specifications
Second Row in the Table "2-class seating"

Fred


Yes..
And..??


He's very simply pointing out that Jon Ostrower's 180-210 2-class seating capacity is comfortably within narrowbody capacity.
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morrisond
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:51 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
This wasn't the question and if you want to show how you can overcome the increase hoop stresses involved in the wider fuselage which at a fundamental level increase with the square of the diameter compared to a relative reduction in length that extra seats bring that scales linearly with a resultant weight/unit area scaling with width, be my guest.

Fred


Hi Fred - One of the rumors of how Boeing was going to get around the Hoop stresses was basically to take half of a circle of the required Diameter for the Top of the fuselage and then 1/3 of a larger circle (or something like that for the bottom. This would fit into the description we have seen that this would be a people carrier and not a cargo hauler. The bottom would effectively be sized for an extra wide LD3-45.

So the Top of the Circle would have the same radius to the Sides from the Floor and to the Crown.

But the bottom section would still be circular in of itself and would effectively have a decreasing radius from where it attaches to the floor beams to the bottom of the Fuselage. The side of the fuselage where the floor beams are could essentially be flat and the strength in the Carbon hoops "could" allow that section to extend a little up from the floor to give more shoulder room before the top circle starts. I'm purely guessing here.

Would this not solve the issue?

You don't have to cut the circle in the middle for the top either - it could be slightly less than half to keep crown height minimal - it would all depend how you make it.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:55 pm

Checklist787 wrote:

According to J. Ostrower, the new FSA is a "small real Middle Of Market", in the other words, it's NOT a "Narrowbody"


flipdewaf wrote:
Incorrect logic,


Oh gosh!
Why that?

J. Ostrower is an influent person!!

-He is had revealed many story in the 737MAX debacle period before other medias

Why suddenly you don't agree?
"Incorrect logic" he does?
Does not make sens for me
Sorry ...

flipdewaf wrote:
the implication that the 'SA' refers to small aircraft and not single aisle does in no way confirm that it is not single aisle in the same way that if it was confirmed that it was 'Single aisle' would not show that it is not a small aircraft.


Please explain us how can you embarking/disembarking 270 passengers in Asia, China airports or other countrys with an UNIQUE Aisle in 2025-2050 time period /in the futur = "eternal growth" ??

flipdewaf wrote:
This wasn't the question and if you want to show how you can overcome the increase hoop stresses involved in the wider fuselage which at a fundamental level increase with the square of the diameter compared to a relative reduction in length that extra seats bring that scales linearly with a resultant weight/unit area scaling with width, be my guest.


I'm afraid that nobody understand your words... Sorry...


flipdewaf wrote:
Saying it twice doesn't make it true, still just an opinion but the (only) question was if this opinion was your position?


Maybe saying it third time will be suffiscent IMO... :roll:

Rehards
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Do it! "...
 
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BaconButty
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:32 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
The tweet clearly says
... "The FSA is the EVENTUAL replacement to the 737!

The word" Eventual" don't guarantee a 737MAX replacement!

But we all know J. Ostrower reveal that the new FSA will carry 180 seats and 210 seat in a standard configuration 2-class.

It's ABOVE of a Narrowbody in term of seats!

Regards


Airbus' nominal 2 class A321neo is 185 pax. LH is packing 199 into theirs. So it's perfectly conceivable that the seat count could refer to 737-9 and 757-200 sized aircraft. I think you're reading quite a lot into things.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
Checklist787
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:38 pm

scbriml wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_757#Specifications
Second Row in the Table "2-class seating"

Fred


Yes..
And..??


He's very simply pointing out that Jon Ostrower's 180-210 2-class seating capacity is comfortably within narrowbody capacity.


Okay for your explanation,

Flexibility and opportunitys are researched by many airlines

The Narrowbody platforms don't go with
"more flexibility" and "opportunity"

The 757 ACAPS don't show the FLEXIBILITY to configure a density 1-/ 2-class à la A321neo!

- 250 passengers of a 757-200 is a HELL of Embarking/Disembarking

But imagine with an all-new small-twin aisle platform

Flexibility and new opportunity thank to a twin-aisle are GOLD for airlines of the futur

Imagine embarking/disembarking 270 passengers in a busy airport in the futur with ONLY Narrowbody?

Mediate on it,
Regards
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Do it! "...
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:49 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
Imagine embarking/disembarking 270 passengers in a busy airport in the futur with ONLY Narrowbody?


How did we get to 270 passengers when Jon Ostrower is talking about 180 - 210?

The two smallest widebodies built (A310 and 767-200) both seated more than 210 in a 2-class configuration.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:51 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:

According to J. Ostrower, the new FSA is a "small real Middle Of Market", in the other words, it's NOT a "Narrowbody"


flipdewaf wrote:
Incorrect logic,


Oh gosh!
Why that?

Why would the fact that the name is small aircraft or middle of market limit it to dual aisle? Because something is not in the description does not mean it cannot not hold that property. Future small aircraft (FSA) also does not indicate that it will be a biplane therfore can we assume it is a biplane?
Checklist787 wrote:
J. Ostrower is an influent person!!

Because someone who says things that are correct says something it does not follow that what they say is correct. It is a well known argument and is a known as the argument from authority and is often used for backing a dogmatic viewpoint...
Checklist787 wrote:
-He is had revealed many story in the 737MAX debacle period before other medias

Why suddenly you don't agree?
"Incorrect logic" he does?
Does not make sens for me
Sorry ...

So to just make sure its clear what you are saying:
Because someone who has been right before is not specifically saying that it is a single aisle therefore it must be dual aisle?
Checklist787 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
the implication that the 'SA' refers to small aircraft and not single aisle does in no way confirm that it is not single aisle in the same way that if it was confirmed that it was 'Single aisle' would not show that it is not a small aircraft.


Please explain us how can you embarking/disembarking 270 passengers in Asia, China airports or other countrys with an UNIQUE Aisle in 2025-2050 time period /in the futur = "eternal growth" ??

I haven't said anything about that, its a valid point and could be useful for further discussion. Do you have any information about how much quicker a dual aisles vs single aisles would be in this scenario?
Checklist787 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
This wasn't the question and if you want to show how you can overcome the increase hoop stresses involved in the wider fuselage which at a fundamental level increase with the square of the diameter compared to a relative reduction in length that extra seats bring that scales linearly with a resultant weight/unit area scaling with width, be my guest.


I'm afraid that nobody understand your words... Sorry...

I think they do, and if you don't that doesn't appear to be a very fruitful argument. Ignorance of something does not equate to it not being true.
Checklist787 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Saying it twice doesn't make it true, still just an opinion but the (only) question was if this opinion was your position?


Maybe saying it third time will be suffiscent IMO... :roll:

Rehards

You can say it till your blue in the face but evidence and logic will be what you need.

Fred
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:16 pm

What is a 737/320 replacement? General agreement here that it will not be what either plane as originally designed and built. Those were small planes, esp. the 737. The Bombardier and Embraer (funny on an aviation site it shows as a misspelling) are the small planes, although more capable than the original 737. So just how big will the replacement be? If 200-250, and 3000 -4500 nm range aren't we looking at a modern more capable Airbus 300?
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Checklist787
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:01 pm

BaconButty wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
The tweet clearly says
... "The FSA is the EVENTUAL replacement to the 737!

The word" Eventual" don't guarantee a 737MAX replacement!

But we all know J. Ostrower reveal that the new FSA will carry 180 seats and 210 seat in a standard configuration 2-class.

It's ABOVE of a Narrowbody in term of seats!

Regards


Airbus' nominal 2 class A321neo is 185 pax. LH is packing 199 into theirs. So it's perfectly conceivable that the seat count could refer to 737-9 and 757-200 sized aircraft. I think you're reading quite a lot into things.


Yep!
I agree but,

In réf. @ 2-class A321neo

A) What's happen on a bigger /stretched
narrowbody? (2-class A322-Xneo concept too)

1. You must augment Business seat capacity
(it's logic), but your opportunity and flexibility is limited in a Strech narrowbody because the space is restricted.

2. Until when you must stretch this narrowbody /A322-Xneo Concept for exemple?

3. You Strech a lot, for less seats / less opportunity. It's inefiscient

So,

B) What's happen on a bigger /larger
Small Widebody? (2-class FSA-X concept)

1. You must augment Business seat capacity
(it's logic), Your opportunity and flexibility is too easy in a Small-Twin Aisle because more space

2. When you come with a larger cabin this Small-Twin Aisle /the FSA-X Concept, you can Stretch many more than a restricted narrowbody.

Either you fly farther, either you can fit many more seat, more than a Narrowbody

3. You Strech a lot, for more seats / more opportunity. It 's effiscient

It' s for what the nominal 2-class FSA-6X @ 180 pax is different of the nominal 2-class A321neo beacause a larger new jet / widebody Twin-Aisle fit more seat, more comfort and heavyer business cabin than a narrowbody /A321neo @ 36 inch pitch in a nominal 2-class 185 pax A321neo when the FSA-8X IS @ 60 inch pitch in a nominal 2-class 180 pax

If you can see easily where and how is more opportunity and flexibility!

It's logic and VERY simple to understand


This explanation is founded on the revelation of the AFFLUENT J. Ostrower Tweet concerning "Not a narrowbody" is the FSA
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Checklist787
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:12 pm

scbriml wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
Imagine embarking/disembarking 270 passengers in a busy airport in the futur with ONLY Narrowbody?


How did we get to 270 passengers when Jon Ostrower is talking about 180 - 210?

The two smallest widebodies built (A310 and 767-200) both seated more than 210 in a 2-class configuration.


See the A321neo seats 185 pax to 240 pax...

It's the same thing for all jet :highfive:

It's relevant to claim that the FSA-9X
concept carrying 210 pax to 270 pax isn't it?
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WayexTDI
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:29 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
And when Boeing confirms it will develop a clean sheet MAX replacement, all Airbus needs to do is to stretch the A220 to develop a 160-seat A220-500. The A220 will then effectively becomes the A318/A319/A320 "clean-sheet" replacement, while the A321NEO stays on with another stretch to make the A322NEO, which together will be the replacement of 757s.

No matter what Boeing does Airbus will again come up with some warmed over design based on something Else they already build so they can keep the same systems installed and scaled for the airframe. They won't have any really new innovations to unveil.

You meant to switch Boeing and Airbus, didn't you?
Airbus neo'd the A320 (2nd major iteration of the A320 Family), Boeing followed suit by MAXing the 737 (4th, read it correctly FOURTH, iteration of the 737)...
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:29 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
Imagine embarking/disembarking 270 passengers in a busy airport in the futur with ONLY Narrowbody?


How did we get to 270 passengers when Jon Ostrower is talking about 180 - 210?

The two smallest widebodies built (A310 and 767-200) both seated more than 210 in a 2-class configuration.


Looking the A321neo seats 185 pax to 240 pax...

Is the same for all jet :highfive:

So for narrow body aircraft the 2 class figures go as high as 243 (as shown on the 757 wiki page).
The lowest 2 class capacity for a wide bodies airliner is 214 for the 767.

As the numbers posted by Mr Ostrower (180-210) fall Entirely within the Single aisle window and Entirely outside the Twin aisle window then I feel it falls upon you to demonstrate why this should point towards a twin aisle solution rather than obfuscation. There are a few fanboys on this site who seem to behave similarly to yourself (probably less fanbiys than the number of fanboy usernames), I don't mind fanboys (I'd include Revelation as a fanboy but he conducts himself very well) but I love arguing.

Fred
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benbeny
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:44 pm

If Boeing doesn't act quickly, they'll be eaten up top and bottom by others.
Remember that back then 737 was regional jet-sized aircraft (100-ish pax) and now growing to 200+ pax market?
I'm more worried with regional jets that has much growing potential, like ERJ195 and A220. If Boeing don't act quickly, ERJ and A220 can eat 150-180 pax market in no time.
Now, after MAX fiasco being cared and 777X back on track, I think they should develop a clean sheet replacement for 150-220 pax market, and quickly. Before Embraer and Bombardier Canada start thinking to stretch their regional jets further.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:54 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

How did we get to 270 passengers when Jon Ostrower is talking about 180 - 210?

The two smallest widebodies built (A310 and 767-200) both seated more than 210 in a 2-class configuration.


Looking the A321neo seats 185 pax to 240 pax...

Is the same for all jet :highfive:

So for narrow body aircraft the 2 class figures go as high as 243 (as shown on the 757 wiki page).
The lowest 2 class capacity for a wide bodies airliner is 214 for the 767.

As the numbers posted by Mr Ostrower (180-210) fall Entirely within the Single aisle window and Entirely outside the Twin aisle window then I feel it falls upon you to demonstrate why this should point towards a twin aisle solution rather than obfuscation. There are a few fanboys on this site who seem to behave similarly to yourself (probably less fanbiys than the number of fanboy usernames), I don't mind fanboys (I'd include Revelation as a fanboy but he conducts himself very well) but I love arguing.

Fred


You need to see my answer to BaconButty.

I do not like arguing :duck:
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
DenverTed
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:58 pm

I always thought that one possible aircraft was to design up to the limits of a single axle gear at around 100t, fits in a 36m gate with either winglets or folding tips. Twin aisle 2-2-2 for lots of aisle seats, starting with a model at 33 rows at 198 pax (45m long) for four flight attendants, then a lower range 5m stretch of 228 pax (50m long). Whatever range you get is what you get within those constraints.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:07 pm

DenverTed wrote:
I always thought that one possible aircraft was to design up to the limits of a single axle gear at around 100t, fits in a 36m gate with either winglets or folding tips. Twin aisle 2-2-2 for lots of aisle seats, starting with a model at 33 rows at 198 pax (46m long) for four flight attendants, then a lower range 4m stretch of 222 pax (50m long). Whatever range you get is what you get within those constraints.


Congrats!

Here's one
You approaching of rhe truth!!!
You are understand the thing!

I liiiiike this!

:arrow: The NMA is a 7-abreast study
(The Ovoid Semi-Widebody based on the Semi-Widebody 767 fuse. called like that in Seattle and revealed by the influent J. Ostrower)

:arrow: The FSA is a 6-abreast study
(The Small Twin Aisle revealed by the influent J. Ostrower)


Who will is the WINNER of the offices design in Seattle SOON ?? :bouncy:
Last edited by Checklist787 on Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:25 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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Do it! "...
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:07 pm

benbeny wrote:
If Boeing doesn't act quickly, they'll be eaten up top and bottom by others.
Remember that back then 737 was regional jet-sized aircraft (100-ish pax) and now growing to 200+ pax market?
I'm more worried with regional jets that has much growing potential, like ERJ195 and A220. If Boeing don't act quickly, ERJ and A220 can eat 150-180 pax market in no time.
Now, after MAX fiasco being cared and 777X back on track, I think they should develop a clean sheet replacement for 150-220 pax market, and quickly. Before Embraer and Bombardier Canada start thinking to stretch their regional jets further.

Boeing could always buy Embraer... ;)

Bombardier has basically withdrawn completely from the commercial aviation business now they have sold their 3 commercial product lines to 3 different companies. They only do business jets, so there's no competition from Canada anymore.
 
benbeny
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:46 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
benbeny wrote:
If Boeing doesn't act quickly, they'll be eaten up top and bottom by others.
Remember that back then 737 was regional jet-sized aircraft (100-ish pax) and now growing to 200+ pax market?
I'm more worried with regional jets that has much growing potential, like ERJ195 and A220. If Boeing don't act quickly, ERJ and A220 can eat 150-180 pax market in no time.
Now, after MAX fiasco being cared and 777X back on track, I think they should develop a clean sheet replacement for 150-220 pax market, and quickly. Before Embraer and Bombardier Canada start thinking to stretch their regional jets further.

Boeing could always buy Embraer... ;)

Bombardier has basically withdrawn completely from the commercial aviation business now they have sold their 3 commercial product lines to 3 different companies. They only do business jets, so there's no competition from Canada anymore.

Good point. Still, they should act fast. Airbus has deep pocket now and they can still develop A220 into something that can eat Boeing's share.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:50 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
It's relevant to claim that the FSA-9X
concept carrying 210 pax to 270 pax isn't it?


270 pax in a 2-class layout would make the Future Small Airplane bigger than a 2-class 787 which Boeing says seats 248. That's not very small, is it?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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flipdewaf
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:01 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:

Looking the A321neo seats 185 pax to 240 pax...

Is the same for all jet :highfive:

So for narrow body aircraft the 2 class figures go as high as 243 (as shown on the 757 wiki page).
The lowest 2 class capacity for a wide bodies airliner is 214 for the 767.

As the numbers posted by Mr Ostrower (180-210) fall Entirely within the Single aisle window and Entirely outside the Twin aisle window then I feel it falls upon you to demonstrate why this should point towards a twin aisle solution rather than obfuscation. There are a few fanboys on this site who seem to behave similarly to yourself (probably less fanbiys than the number of fanboy usernames), I don't mind fanboys (I'd include Revelation as a fanboy but he conducts himself very well) but I love arguing.

Fred


You need to see my answer to BaconButty.

I do not like arguing :duck:


You appear to suggest that the 2-class examples given are not representative of what would be expected in terms of seats/area for the FSA which is fine. What is your reasonable expectation on this measure and where have you derived this from? What are the current 2 class capacities for the aforementioned aircraft with which we are making the comparisons?

Fred
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Checklist787
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:28 pm

scbriml wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
It's relevant to claim that the FSA-9X
concept carrying 210 pax to 270 pax isn't it?


270 pax in a 2-class layout would make the Future Small Airplane bigger than a 2-class 787 which Boeing says seats 248. That's not very small, is it?


A321neo 1-class 240 pax @28-29 pitch
FSA-9X 1-class 270 pax @28-29 pitch

It's not compliqued de to understand
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flipdewaf
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Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:52 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
It's relevant to claim that the FSA-9X
concept carrying 210 pax to 270 pax isn't it?


270 pax in a 2-class layout would make the Future Small Airplane bigger than a 2-class 787 which Boeing says seats 248. That's not very small, is it?


A321neo 1-class 240 pax @28-29 pitch
FSA-9X 1-class 270 pax @28-29 pitch

It's not compliqued de to understand

I previously posted a link to the 757 article and pointed toward the 2-class seating capacity. On the line above that is the single class capacity and the final column shows the 757-300.

You are right, it isn’t difficult to understand.

Fred


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DenverTed
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:10 pm

If the critical path on the NMA was the engine, perhaps the timeline on the FSA could be shortened if they use a GTF or LEAP variant. Since the engines will lift 100t on a 36m wing. On a folding 42m wing, perhaps they could lift 120t. A 2026 EIS might be reasonable with current engines derivatives.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:21 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
So for narrow body aircraft the 2 class figures go as high as 243 (as shown on the 757 wiki page).
The lowest 2 class capacity for a wide bodies airliner is 214 for the 767.

As the numbers posted by Mr Ostrower (180-210) fall Entirely within the Single aisle window and Entirely outside the Twin aisle window then I feel it falls upon you to demonstrate why this should point towards a twin aisle solution rather than obfuscation. There are a few fanboys on this site who seem to behave similarly to yourself (probably less fanbiys than the number of fanboy usernames), I don't mind fanboys (I'd include Revelation as a fanboy but he conducts himself very well) but I love arguing.

Fred


Checklist787 wrote:

You need to see my answer to BaconButty.

I do not like arguing :duck:


flipdewaf wrote:
You appear to suggest that the 2-class examples given are not representative of what would be expected in terms of seats/area for the FSA which is fine. What is your reasonable expectation on this measure and where have you derived this from? What are the current 2 class capacities for the aforementioned aircraft with which we are making the comparisons?

Fred


In fact there are several 2-class type

- In a widebody jet, what is called Premium seat generally a pitch of 36-38 inch pitch, are neither more or less than the First / Business seats of a narrowbody.

For example, the A321neo Airbus ACAP has 16 seats in First @ 36 in pitch ...
(2 + 2)

So,

According to J. Ostrower/WSJ
If the "non-narrowbody" FSA-8X concept, carries 2-class 180 seats, I see several types of 2-class / new opportunities for different arrangement

If it's a 7-abreast,

1. Business seat / 4-5 Abreast @ 36 to 60 " pitch

2. In Premium Seat / 6 Abreast @
36-38 " pitch

We understand

1. The flexibility and the opportunity offered for customers

We also understand

2. Like the A330's / 767's - Airbus /Boeing ACAPS the Twin-Aisle FSA-X'will also fit Business seat @ 60in pitch

Which translates to 180-210 seats in Business and not in Business Premium @ 36 in pitch like many Narrowbody arrangement (A320neo family / 737MAX family)...


Accordingly,


The FSA-8X concept, seems to carry "only" 2-class 180 seats / Business seats @ 60 in pitch for 5-6 hours missions

A LCC configuration might well accommodate 2-class 210 / Business seats @ 36 in pitch à la narrowbody too !


For the Strech FSA-9X concept there would be 2-class 210 / Business seats @ 60 in pitch
but, also 2-class 240 / Business seats @ 36 in pitch.

3/4 of the airlines will operate FSA's LCC's missions à la narrowbody too !

We must distinguish the two things
IMO, no interest for Boeing to offer / something that looks like 737MAX for NOW


Remember that Boeing presented the 787 Dreamliner as a little widebody jet that could carry 210 seats to 290 seats from 2003 to 2006.

"Little jet with a big airplane range"
- According to Boeing

Who remember that?

So, it seems the notional "little / Small-jet" for Boeing, represent something new not necessary a "vulgar" "New-Narrowbody",
Why Boeing had not called more logically the


"Futur Narrowbody Airplane" (FNA)
if is true??


The FSA concept seems "Small / Little" but not a all-New Narrowbody jet in the Boeing jargon

I hope had answered correctly your questions
Last edited by Checklist787 on Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:38 pm

DenverTed wrote:
If the critical path on the NMA was the engine, perhaps the timeline on the FSA could be shortened if they use a GTF or LEAP variant. Since the engines will lift 100t on a 36m wing. On a folding 42m wing, perhaps they could lift 120t. A 2026 EIS might be reasonable with current engines derivatives.


Thanks,
Good job!!

I see a LEAP variant,
BOEING / SAFRAN / GE
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Do it! "...
 
ewt340
Posts: 1271
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Boeing NMA in doubt as customers push for all new 737MAX and 757 replacement

Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:24 pm

afgeneral wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Shouldn't this be an easy task for boeing?

Make an aircraft the size of B737-800 and B757-200. But combined them into a single family.
And then let Embraer took over the 150 seat market with E195-E2.

And voila, you got a winner.


Boeing hasn't built a clean sheet airplane without running into years of delays and $10s of billions in overruns since the 777.

"Voila" sounds more like Toulouse


Honestly, what should they do now then? Keep re-engine B737? What's next? B737XTREME?

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