HP69
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Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:58 am

Compared to UA and AA, which fly or will fly to numerous exotic destinations, Delta seems to have a lack of international presence outside of their partner hubs. They have skipped out on serving cities like HKG, DEL, TPE, and AKL, in favor of KLM, Korean, and Virgin metal. Why is it that AA and UA are able to both have strong partners (BA and LH) and also serve cities like HKG while Delta can't?
 
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PA110
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:04 am

The same reason any airline does anything. Economics. If DL can cover the network through joint ventures and revenue sharing agreements, there is no need to use their own metal where it might cost more to set up their own operations.
Look, it's been swell, but the swelling's gone down.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:04 am

Because they make more money that way than by operating everywhere?

There's a reason why in 2018 they made $1.3 billion more profits than UA and $1.6 billion more profits than AA while earning $900 million less revenue than AA!
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
codc10
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:17 am

First, Delta's international presence is pretty much the diametric opposite of "weak". It might lack the breadth of network of AA, and UA more so, but it has comprehensive service in most major markets.

As to why Delta doesn't fly to some of the more "exotic" locales as United or American, the simple answer is it makes too much money in the domestic market to deploy capital-intensive assets on routes that don't drive the same returns. UA and AA simply don't capture the same margins systemwide as Delta, so many of these routes that fall at an acceptable level for AA/UA would not be worth Delta's investment given their results elsewhere.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:22 am

It is incredibly weak because they've outsourced their entire international network to the lowest bidder using their JV network. Meanwhile, United has rapidly grown to overtake Delta in the International arena and even AA which is otherwise in decline is starting to beat DL in the international scene which speaks volumes about how far Delta's international network has fallen since its heyday. Delta's international network has no backbone so this is hardly a surprising development, the writing was on the wall for some time. Outsourcing in the airline industry is just like outsourcing in any industry: It may be good in the short term but it will bite you in the long term. Delta is playing a dangerous game delegating their network to others and shrinking their own, UA and AA will come out much stronger in a few years time if their international growth continues while DL tepidly falls behind.
Last edited by sonicruiser on Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
questions
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:25 am

Two words: NETWORK STRATEGY

Delta’s network strategy is different than AA’s and UA’s. Currently it’s paying off. But things change. Check back in ten years and let’s see who’s leading the pack. All three may have changed their strategies by then.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:31 am

HP69 wrote:
Compared to UA and AA, which fly or will fly to numerous exotic destinations, Delta seems to have a lack of international presence outside of their partner hubs. They have skipped out on serving cities like HKG, DEL, TPE, and AKL, in favor of KLM, Korean, and Virgin metal. Why is it that AA and UA are able to both have strong partners (BA and LH) and also serve cities like HKG while Delta can't?


sonicruiser wrote:
It is weak because they've outsourced their entire international network to the lowest bidder. Meanwhile, United has rapidly grown to overtake Delta in the International arena and even AA which is otherwise in decline is starting to beat DL in the international scene which speaks volumes about how far Delta's international network has fallen since its heyday.


You two need to study a DL route map. That'll give you something to do after recess.

DL's international presence (DOT regions) was $11.5 billion in revenue (bigger than AA) and 84 Billion RPMs last year.
 
questions
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:31 am

sonicruiser wrote:
It is weak because they've outsourced their entire international network to the lowest bidder. Meanwhile, United has rapidly grown to overtake Delta in the International arena and even AA which is otherwise in decline is starting to beat DL in the international scene which speaks volumes about how far Delta's international network has fallen since its heyday.


Delta may have some clunkiness in their international network for some flyers, e.g., JFK-HND and JFK-HKG. However it’s not how many non-US airports where DL’s planes can be spotted. It’s about who makes the most net income. Always. Period.
 
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:35 am

sonicruiser wrote:
It is incredibly weak because they've outsourced their entire international network to the lowest bidder using their JV network. Meanwhile, United has rapidly grown to overtake Delta in the International arena and even AA which is otherwise in decline is starting to beat DL in the international scene which speaks volumes about how far Delta's international network has fallen since its heyday. Delta's international network has no backbone so this is hardly a surprising development, the writing was on the wall for some time.


incredibly weak, lowest bidder, overtake Delta, Delta international network has fallen, no backbone; how intellectually immature can a post be?
 
klm617
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:46 am

One of the main reasons is they want their network focused only on ATL for connections and that limits what you can do internationally. While yes it has other hubs for the most part the mindset is everything over ATL and while that works well for most US domestic connections for international connections it requires a large portion of it's connecting passenger to fly out of their way. DL only has reall two TATL transfer points JFK and ATL and JFK is geared towards O/D with minimal connection opportunities available. AA and UA are more diverse UA has ORD, SFO,IAH,IAD and EWR and AA has MIA, CLT, PHL and DFW so internationally DL really is at a disadvantage when it comes to a passenger needing to get from point A to point B with a connection because those connections either require 2 stops or back tracking not customer friendly at all.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
downdata
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:47 am

I thought Delta has a larger international network by countries & cities than AA?

For the discussion to be constructive, you need to define whats international presence. Not flying to, say, HKG, is probably not a good definition. For example, just because Chinese airlines fly 3x as many frequencies to HKG, doesnt mean they have 3x international presence then US airlines.

Instead, you might ask why doesnt Delta fly to certain international destinations.
Last edited by downdata on Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
DeltaConnection
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:07 am

downdata wrote:
I thought Delta has a larger international network by countries & cities than AA?

For the discussion to be constructive, you need to define whats international presence. Not flying to, say, HKG, is probably not a good definition. For example, just because Chinese airlines fly 3x as many frequencies to HKG, doesnt mean they have 3x international presence then US airlines.

Instead, you might ask why doesnt Delta fly to certain international destinations.


Agreed with your HKG comment.

I believe AA serves more countries than DL does however DL has a larger international network. On UA and DL you can get somewhere in Africa, on AA you cannot.

Starting soon you can also get to India on both DL and UA, not AA.
Last edited by DeltaConnection on Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
LawAndOrder
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:08 am

sonicruiser wrote:
It is incredibly weak because they've outsourced their entire international network to the lowest bidder using their JV network. Meanwhile, United has rapidly grown to overtake Delta in the International arena and even AA which is otherwise in decline is starting to beat DL in the international scene which speaks volumes about how far Delta's international network has fallen since its heyday. Delta's international network has no backbone so this is hardly a surprising development, the writing was on the wall for some time. Outsourcing in the airline industry is just like outsourcing in any industry: It may be good in the short term but it will bite you in the long term. Delta is playing a dangerous game delegating their network to others and shrinking their own, UA and AA will come out much stronger in a few years time if their international growth continue[twoid][/twoid]s while DL tepidly falls behind.


Clearly you haven’t seen the entity performance data. AA is weak as far as margins and straight revenue every entity except for LAC. Delta strategy is working. Why deploy ur assets where they wouldn’t and as AA has shown doesn’t make money. DL is definitely growing internationally just not growing to “exciting cities”. If a route is that compelling they can always move their assets to the other routes.
 
Detroit313
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:13 am

Because it is cheaper to let foreign carriers do the flying.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:17 am

Detroit313 wrote:
Because it is cheaper to let foreign carriers do the flying.

It does seem like DL uses international carriers for quite a bit of its international flying.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:22 am

Depends on where, and who ended up acquiring the Pan Am network for that area. Going across the Pacific, it was United who acquired the Pan-Am TPAC and Asia network and thus has been the king across the Pacific among the US3. However, TATL to Africa and Europe, I would argue that DL has the strongest network, as a result of inheriting the Pan-Am TATL network at JFK (and the Worldport) to Europe. (Lufthansa acquired Pan Am's German domestic services.) American became the king of Latin America among the US3 by getting the Latin American routes at MIA. (United's growth in Europe was largely a result of the acquisition of Continental, who had mastered the secondary city there.)
 
strfyr51
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:26 am

HP69 wrote:
Compared to UA and AA, which fly or will fly to numerous exotic destinations, Delta seems to have a lack of international presence outside of their partner hubs. They have skipped out on serving cities like HKG, DEL, TPE, and AKL, in favor of KLM, Korean, and Virgin metal. Why is it that AA and UA are able to both have strong partners (BA and LH) and also serve cities like HKG while Delta can't?

it's a matter of perception, Delta's management believes they can do what United does in the Pacific and what American does in the Atlantic through Partnerships rather than by themselves, United could and would do that were ALPA amenable to that without question. However? I would not think they Are. Which is why United has so many more Long range airplanes.
 
Detroit313
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:26 am

Also, when 3 of your 4 largest hubs are Detroit, Minneapolis and Salt Lake City, you cannot be that adventurous with international routes. Those are small markets.

UA and AA have hubs in some of the largest metro areas.
 
flyinghippo
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:31 am

Can you define what is a "Strong" international presence vs. what is a "weak" one? Passengers carried? Connection opportunities? Revenue/profit on international routes? Does it mean name recognition? Also, after defining that is "Strong" vs. "Weak", do you have the metrics on DL's international network data to measure how "weak" it is?
 
Pbb152
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:35 am

HP69 wrote:
Compared to UA and AA, which fly or will fly to numerous exotic destinations, Delta seems to have a lack of international presence outside of their partner hubs. They have skipped out on serving cities like HKG, DEL, TPE, and AKL, in favor of KLM, Korean, and Virgin metal. Why is it that AA and UA are able to both have strong partners (BA and LH) and also serve cities like HKG while Delta can't?


Please stop posting. Signed, the entire airliners.net community.
 
ilovelamp
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:37 am

sonicruiser wrote:
It is incredibly weak because they've outsourced their entire international network to the lowest bidder using their JV network. Meanwhile, United has rapidly grown to overtake Delta in the International arena and even AA which is otherwise in decline is starting to beat DL in the international scene which speaks volumes about how far Delta's international network has fallen since its heyday. Delta's international network has no backbone so this is hardly a surprising development, the writing was on the wall for some time. Outsourcing in the airline industry is just like outsourcing in any industry: It may be good in the short term but it will bite you in the long term. Delta is playing a dangerous game delegating their network to others and shrinking their own, UA and AA will come out much stronger in a few years time if their international growth continues while DL tepidly falls behind.


This opinion is horribly short-sided and incredibly biased.

For the last 5 years Delta has been hyper-focused on developing their US domestic presence. Naturally something had to be put aside temporarily. Over the last year, the shift has begun to become more focused on Delta metal international expansion. I foresee another wide body move. Could be as wild as a 350 trade for 787s especially as it becomes more apparent the NMA is moving farther into the future.

Bottom line is your hyperbolic description that Delta's “entire” international network has been outsourced is just outrageous and holds no truth.


ILL
 
hsuthe19
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:06 am

klm617 wrote:
One of the main reasons is they want their network focused only on ATL for connections and that limits what you can do internationally. While yes it has other hubs for the most part the mindset is everything over ATL and while that works well for most US domestic connections for international connections it requires a large portion of it's connecting passenger to fly out of their way. DL only has reall two TATL transfer points JFK and ATL and JFK is geared towards O/D with minimal connection opportunities available. AA and UA are more diverse UA has ORD, SFO,IAH,IAD and EWR and AA has MIA, CLT, PHL and DFW so internationally DL really is at a disadvantage when it comes to a passenger needing to get from point A to point B with a connection because those connections either require 2 stops or back tracking not customer friendly at all.


I just did a dummy booking for flights between CMH-CDG.
I had the opportunity to connect in BOS, DTW, JFK and ATL.
 
HPAEAA
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:09 am

HP69 wrote:
Compared to UA and AA, which fly or will fly to numerous exotic destinations, Delta seems to have a lack of international presence outside of their partner hubs. They have skipped out on serving cities like HKG, DEL, TPE, and AKL, in favor of KLM, Korean, and Virgin metal. Why is it that AA and UA are able to both have strong partners (BA and LH) and also serve cities like HKG while Delta can't?

How are you measuring weak intl presence? Is it on destinations served? In full year 2018, DL was 2nd to UAL in the amount of of INTL ASMs, and was larger than AA in both APAC and Europe, the only weak point in their network was LATAM (region not the carrier) which may or may not last with the recent developments.... UAL was 2nd in Europe and LATAM and a wide leader in APAC (54% larger than DL)
1.4mm and counting...
 
777Mech
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:09 am

klm617 wrote:
One of the main reasons is they want their network focused only on ATL for connections and that limits what you can do internationally. While yes it has other hubs for the most part the mindset is everything over ATL and while that works well for most US domestic connections for international connections it requires a large portion of it's connecting passenger to fly out of their way. DL only has reall two TATL transfer points JFK and ATL and JFK is geared towards O/D with minimal connection opportunities available. AA and UA are more diverse UA has ORD, SFO,IAH,IAD and EWR and AA has MIA, CLT, PHL and DFW so internationally DL really is at a disadvantage when it comes to a passenger needing to get from point A to point B with a connection because those connections either require 2 stops or back tracking not customer friendly at all.


So Delta only has connecting hubs in JFK and ATL? Did you forget about BOS? You're just irritated that VS/KL/KE do not feel the need to fly into DTW. DL will absolutely sell you a connection via any hub. It all comes down to cost.
 
Floridian
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:13 am

RE: Delta's weak(?) intl presence.

Delta flies to over 50 countries from more than 20 US cities. Look at their route maps... surprise!
 
AF773
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:29 am

I had to remind myself about five times reading this thread that it was not April fools or that I am not hallucinating or high...
Next flights: SAN-LAX-MEX; SAN-ATL-PNS; SNA-ATL-CDG-SEA-SNA; LAX-CDG; ORY-FEZ; NCE-AMS-TPE-MNL-TAG
 
musman9853
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:34 am

questions wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
It is weak because they've outsourced their entire international network to the lowest bidder. Meanwhile, United has rapidly grown to overtake Delta in the International arena and even AA which is otherwise in decline is starting to beat DL in the international scene which speaks volumes about how far Delta's international network has fallen since its heyday.


Delta may have some clunkiness in their international network for some flyers, e.g., JFK-HND and JFK-HKG. However it’s not how many non-US airports where DL’s planes can be spotted. It’s about who makes the most net income. Always. Period.


Maybe if you're a stockholder. I personally don't care about how much money the airline makes over the places they fly
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
winginit
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:42 am

musman9853 wrote:
questions wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
It is weak because they've outsourced their entire international network to the lowest bidder. Meanwhile, United has rapidly grown to overtake Delta in the International arena and even AA which is otherwise in decline is starting to beat DL in the international scene which speaks volumes about how far Delta's international network has fallen since its heyday.


Delta may have some clunkiness in their international network for some flyers, e.g., JFK-HND and JFK-HKG. However it’s not how many non-US airports where DL’s planes can be spotted. It’s about who makes the most net income. Always. Period.


Maybe if you're a stockholder. I personally don't care about how much money the airline makes over the places they fly


In today's business climate for better or for worse the interests of the stockholders vastly outweigh the concerns of everyone else. Whether you care or not about how much money they make or where they fly is irrelevant unless you're an influential shareholder. Welcome to capitalism!

Delta generates more profits than any other airline in the world, and that very much pleases their shareholders. Having a 'weak international presence' in the face of record profits is irrelevant plain and simple. Why are AA and UA seemingly incapable of generating the kinds of profits that DL does? The fact that AA and UA fly questionably profitable international routes whereas DL does not might be one of the many drivers. Think anyone is happy flying to HKG right now? DL obviously couldn't have predicted the social unrest there when they pulled SEAHKG, but you can be sure they're damn happy right now that they don't fly HKG.
Last edited by winginit on Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
BrianWilkes
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:45 am

I would not call it weak by any means!
 
MRYapproach
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:00 am

Maybe because flying international on domestic carriers is horrible?
 
lessredtape
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:01 am

always wondered why DL doesn't do more flights to Australia. They have daily LAX/SYD/LAX & VA their OZ partner has daily SYD/LAX/SYD & up to 6/week BNE/LAX/BNE (5 x AM & 1 x PM) & 5/week MEL/LAX/MEL.

No one from BNE or MEL wants to go anywhere near awful SYD, so you'd think DL might look at either flying to either BNE or MEL so VA could go daily from one.

BTW
QF has bumped up BNE/LAX nonstops in busy Jan to 13/week, daily in AM & 6 in PM.
 
hsuthe19
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:04 am

777Mech wrote:
klm617 wrote:
One of the main reasons is they want their network focused only on ATL for connections and that limits what you can do internationally. While yes it has other hubs for the most part the mindset is everything over ATL and while that works well for most US domestic connections for international connections it requires a large portion of it's connecting passenger to fly out of their way. DL only has reall two TATL transfer points JFK and ATL and JFK is geared towards O/D with minimal connection opportunities available. AA and UA are more diverse UA has ORD, SFO,IAH,IAD and EWR and AA has MIA, CLT, PHL and DFW so internationally DL really is at a disadvantage when it comes to a passenger needing to get from point A to point B with a connection because those connections either require 2 stops or back tracking not customer friendly at all.


So Delta only has connecting hubs in JFK and ATL? Did you forget about BOS? You're just irritated that VS/KL/KE do not feel the need to fly into DTW. DL will absolutely sell you a connection via any hub. It all comes down to cost.

You kind of ignored my comment about CMH-CDG.

Anyway. With what’s going on in HKG, do you really think Delta is missing out?
Also, I think in the future we will see some more INTL expansion from delta, given that they have called for more pilots, and have been slow to retire 763ERs (unless I’m wrong. I’m somewhat new to this hobby).
 
dampfnudel
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:09 am

I think AA and UA would gladly reduce their international presence and rely more on their international partners in exchange for Delta’s bottom line.
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juliuswong
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:57 am

Hi all, this thread has been derailed. It will be locked for cleaning purpose and a decision will be made if it will be released for future comment.

Over the past 24 hours, moderators received an unexpected high amount of reports, especially by HP69 and are currently working through all reports.

Thank you to all who have contributed constructively and with manners to the forum.

Regards,
J
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PacoMartin
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:00 am

HP69 wrote:
Compared to UA and AA, which fly or will fly to numerous exotic destinations, Delta seems to have a lack of international presence outside of their partner hubs. They have skipped out on serving cities like HKG, DEL, TPE, and AKL, in favor of KLM, Korean, and Virgin metal. Why is it that AA and UA are able to both have strong partners (BA and LH) and also serve cities like HKG while Delta can't?


I wouldn't consider HKG (8th largest airport in the world as exotic), but I understand your basic point as Delta is now down to 7 airports in East Asia and Oceania having terminated many airports.

Delta Airlines has limited trans-Pacific destinations (to major airports only)
Japan: Nagoya, Osaka, Tokyo (Haneda Airport)
Korea: Incheon International Airport
China: Beijing Capital International Airport & Shanghai Pudong International Airport
Oceania: Sydney
Hong Kong International Airport TERMINATED
Singapore Changi Airport TERMINATED
Bangkok TERMINATED
Ho Chi Minh City TERMINATED
Mactan-Cebu International Airport TERMINATED
Fukuoka Airport TERMINATED[/quote]

But American only serves 8 airports in Asia and Oceania which is not much different than Delta. Interestingly enough Delta makes a profit in Asia, while American loses a lot of money.

American Airlines has limited trans-Pacific destinations (to major airports only)
Japan: Tokyo (Haneda International Airport &Narita International Airport )
Korea: Incheon International Airport
China: Beijing Capital International Airport & Shanghai Pudong International Airport
Oceania: Sydney and Auckland.
Hong Kong International Airport

United does indeed have a more exotic collection of Asian destinations
Australia Sydney & Melbourne
China Beijing & Chengdu & Shanghai
Federated States of Micronesia Chuuk & Kosrae & Pohnpei & Yap Yap
French Polynesia) Papeete Fa'a'a International Airport
Hong Kong International Airport
India Delhi & Mumbai
Japan Fukuoka & Nagoya & Osaka &Tokyo (Haneda Airport |Narita International Airport)
Marshall Islands Kwajalein & Majuro
New Zealand Auckland
Palau Koror
Philippines Manila
South Korea Seoul

United has roughly the same revenue in the Pacific as combined value of Delta and American, but their profits are far below Delta.

It's probably not a magic answer, Delta's strategy is making them money.
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Why does Delta have such a weak intl presence?

Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:24 am

I think many airlines would love to be as "weak" as DL. :D And a friendly bit of advice: When in doubt, don't feed the trolls. :tongue2:
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