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yulexpansion
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AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:09 am

Apparently for summer 2020 AF will be adding its fourth daily service to YUL as well as a second daily to YYZ on a 4/3 weekly basis respectively. Seems like this goes beyond the simple routine frequency increase given the history beyond the AF-KL's CEO.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:33 am

AF was 10x weekly this summer to YYZ, so the increase seems to be 1x weekly additional?
 
alexdelzotto1
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:16 am

yulexpansion wrote:
Apparently for summer 2020 AF will be adding its fourth daily service to YUL as well as a second daily to YYZ on a 4/3 weekly basis respectively. Seems like this goes beyond the simple routine frequency increase given the history beyond the AF-KL's CEO.


Is there a source yet?

AF was briefly 4 daily back a few years ago, and dropped back to 3 daily when they deployed the A380 on the route.

If AF indeed increase back up to 4 daily, YUL-Paris will be one massive route.

28 weekly Air France to CDG
20 weekly Air Transat to CDG
14 weekly Air Canada to CDG

4 weekly LEVEL to ORY
7 weekly Corsair to ORY

A day tripper would be interesting.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:24 am

alexdelzotto1 wrote:
yulexpansion wrote:
Apparently for summer 2020 AF will be adding its fourth daily service to YUL as well as a second daily to YYZ on a 4/3 weekly basis respectively. Seems like this goes beyond the simple routine frequency increase given the history beyond the AF-KL's CEO.


Is there a source yet?

AF was briefly 4 daily back a few years ago, and dropped back to 3 daily when they deployed the A380 on the route.

If AF indeed increase back up to 4 daily, YUL-Paris will be one massive route.

28 weekly Air France to CDG
20 weekly Air Transat to CDG
14 weekly Air Canada to CDG

4 weekly LEVEL to ORY
7 weekly Corsair to ORY

A day tripper would be interesting.


AF booking engine is showing 24x weekly, so the 4th flight is 3x weekly. On those days, it'll be 2x 77W, 2x 772.
 
alexdelzotto1
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:25 am

whywhyzee wrote:
alexdelzotto1 wrote:
yulexpansion wrote:
Apparently for summer 2020 AF will be adding its fourth daily service to YUL as well as a second daily to YYZ on a 4/3 weekly basis respectively. Seems like this goes beyond the simple routine frequency increase given the history beyond the AF-KL's CEO.


Is there a source yet?

AF was briefly 4 daily back a few years ago, and dropped back to 3 daily when they deployed the A380 on the route.

If AF indeed increase back up to 4 daily, YUL-Paris will be one massive route.

28 weekly Air France to CDG
20 weekly Air Transat to CDG
14 weekly Air Canada to CDG

4 weekly LEVEL to ORY
7 weekly Corsair to ORY

A day tripper would be interesting.


AF booking engine is showing 24x weekly, so the 4th flight is 3x weekly. On those days, it'll be 2x 77W, 2x 772.


Oh I see it now, Thanks

3rd and 4th flight are 30 mins apart.
 
Thibault973
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:21 am

alexdelzotto1 wrote:
whywhyzee wrote:
alexdelzotto1 wrote:

Is there a source yet?

AF was briefly 4 daily back a few years ago, and dropped back to 3 daily when they deployed the A380 on the route.

If AF indeed increase back up to 4 daily, YUL-Paris will be one massive route.

28 weekly Air France to CDG
20 weekly Air Transat to CDG
14 weekly Air Canada to CDG

4 weekly LEVEL to ORY
7 weekly Corsair to ORY

A day tripper would be interesting.


AF booking engine is showing 24x weekly, so the 4th flight is 3x weekly. On those days, it'll be 2x 77W, 2x 772.


Oh I see it now, Thanks

3rd and 4th flight are 30 mins apart.


Not even, 15 !

AF348 departs at 6:45pm and AF340 at 7pm

That's quiet impressive knowing some of these flights are operated with their 468 seaters 77W + TS also deploys it's 375 seater 333 on the route.
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:36 am

Wonder why AF add more capacity on YUL instead of focusing on other NA markets where there could be higher yields such as ORD or IAH. Although both non-sky hubs I see potential for more than 1xdaily.
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
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752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
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IndianicWorld
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:44 am

upperdeckfan wrote:
Wonder why AF add more capacity on YUL instead of focusing on other NA markets where there could be higher yields such as ORD or IAH. Although both non-sky hubs I see potential for more than 1xdaily.


It’s a known market for them, which has high volume and must perform well.

No guarantees that there is higher yields elsewhere.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:36 am

upperdeckfan wrote:
Wonder why AF add more capacity on YUL instead of focusing on other NA markets where there could be higher yields such as ORD or IAH. Although both non-sky hubs I see potential for more than 1xdaily.


I'm not so sure the yields at ORD and IAH for AF would be higher. They have to compete with AA and UA at ORD (*AA flies ORD-CDG in Summer only) and UA at IAH where they have no feed at each. DL tried ORD-CDG on its own metal a while back and it flopped. SkyTeam just isn't that strong in either of those markets (ORD or IAH).
 
jamsco99
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:44 am

IndianicWorld wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
Wonder why AF add more capacity on YUL instead of focusing on other NA markets where there could be higher yields such as ORD or IAH. Although both non-sky hubs I see potential for more than 1xdaily.


It’s a known market for them, which has high volume and must perform well.

No guarantees that there is higher yields elsewhere.


The reason they pulled the a380 is because of low yield
 
yulexpansion
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Posts: 108
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:14 am

jamsco99 wrote:
IndianicWorld wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
Wonder why AF add more capacity on YUL instead of focusing on other NA markets where there could be higher yields such as ORD or IAH. Although both non-sky hubs I see potential for more than 1xdaily.


It’s a known market for them, which has high volume and must perform well.

No guarantees that there is higher yields elsewhere.


The reason they pulled the a380 is because of low yield


Not necessarily low yield, just not the premium volumes that could fill 9F + 80J. Canada is just not the market for a behemoth like that.
 
IndianicWorld
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:19 am

jamsco99 wrote:
IndianicWorld wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
Wonder why AF add more capacity on YUL instead of focusing on other NA markets where there could be higher yields such as ORD or IAH. Although both non-sky hubs I see potential for more than 1xdaily.


It’s a known market for them, which has high volume and must perform well.

No guarantees that there is higher yields elsewhere.


The reason they pulled the a380 is because of low yield


Too simplistic to say that sorry to say. Not high yield maybe, but a market with volume and obviously brings results.

It would mainly relate to filling an A380 with the premium demand that the cabin offers, so it likely saw better opportunities to meet the market with a better suited aircraft/frequency mix.
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:21 am

upperdeckfan wrote:
Wonder why AF add more capacity on YUL instead of focusing on other NA markets where there could be higher yields such as ORD or IAH. Although both non-sky hubs I see potential for more than 1xdaily.


AF was summer seasonal to ORD for the longest time, and utilized its smallest type on the route (A332). The route went year round only 2 years ago, and at the same time DL canceled its seasonal service. That tells me skyteam and AF struggle with ORD.

To be expected, as they compete with AA and UA on the route. The market can probably only support the flights it has now.
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DL747400
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:03 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:
Wonder why AF add more capacity on YUL instead of focusing on other NA markets where there could be higher yields such as ORD or IAH. Although both non-sky hubs I see potential for more than 1xdaily.


The truth is that if AF thought they could make more €€€ by adding frequencies at ORD or IAH or elsewhere in North America, they would not be adding frequencies at YUL. Forget about connections; both YUL and CDG are huge destinations in their own right. And let's face it, where else in North American is there a larger French-speaking population than in Quebec? Affinity and familiarity matter very much.
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Thibault973
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:16 pm

33.78% of all Canadians are of French origins according to the 2016 Canadian census. A bit less than 100K French citizens are registered at the Montreal consulate. Last year, 60% of condos sold in le Plateau-Mont Royal arrondissement in Montreal were to French citizens, was there a few months ago and I was impressed how few people there spoke with a Quebequois accent, all sounded French to me.
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:35 pm

DL747400 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
Wonder why AF add more capacity on YUL instead of focusing on other NA markets where there could be higher yields such as ORD or IAH. Although both non-sky hubs I see potential for more than 1xdaily.


The truth is that if AF thought they could make more €€€ by adding frequencies at ORD or IAH or elsewhere in North America, they would not be adding frequencies at YUL. Forget about connections; both YUL and CDG are huge destinations in their own right. And let's face it, where else in North American is there a larger French-speaking population than in Quebec? Affinity and familiarity matter very much.


Affinity and familiarity = low yields
With around 70x a week on YUL-CDG R/T's in Y are going at 500 euros next summer.

Cointrin330 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
Wonder why AF add more capacity on YUL instead of focusing on other NA markets where there could be higher yields such as ORD or IAH. Although both non-sky hubs I see potential for more than 1xdaily.


I'm not so sure the yields at ORD and IAH for AF would be higher. They have to compete with AA and UA at ORD (*AA flies ORD-CDG in Summer only) and UA at IAH where they have no feed at each. DL tried ORD-CDG on its own metal a while back and it flopped. SkyTeam just isn't that strong in either of those markets (ORD or IAH).


UA and AA have feed on one end and AF have feed on the other end. Sky isn't strong at IAH/ORD and either Star or OW are strong at CDG.
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
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M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
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tphuang
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:43 pm

Yep huge native french population in Montreal. The capacity level here really not so surprising.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:18 pm

YUL is the second largest francophone city on the planet, no surprise there.

YYZ-CDG in 2018 was a 570k pax/yr market growing at 66 pdew, so again, not a surprise. I'm just curious to see what the actual change will be, I'd think it would be more logical to add in the second daily earlier rather than increasing it peak time, as the schedule stands, if S20 were to not change, there would be a brief period in March and April where capacity actually drops slightly from the winter (Daily A359-Daily 772)
 
EMB170
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:40 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
Wonder why AF add more capacity on YUL instead of focusing on other NA markets where there could be higher yields such as ORD or IAH. Although both non-sky hubs I see potential for more than 1xdaily.


AF was summer seasonal to ORD for the longest time, and utilized its smallest type on the route (A332). The route went year round only 2 years ago, and at the same time DL canceled its seasonal service. That tells me skyteam and AF struggle with ORD.

To be expected, as they compete with AA and UA on the route. The market can probably only support the flights it has now.


I thought the whole reason that AF and DL were swapping in/out on CDG-ORD was to account for downturns in winter. AF was using an A332, its smallest type as mentioned above, but then DL was using a B763 in winter months as it was somewhat lower capacity. That way SkyTeam still was present in ORD but using smaller gauge during low season. I wouldn't necessarily say it flopped...especially if they have now managed to run AA off the route for half the year...

That being said, I too would like to see AF return to some more of their previous outstations, such as PHL and EWR as opposed to tripling and quadrupling down on YUL. They probably need more A332-sized aircraft, however, in order to make that happen. Do we know if AF has considered ordering the A321XLR?
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
TObound
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:06 pm

I'm always surprised there's no room (or yield apparently) in these schedules for a daily YOW-CDG.
 
FSDan
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:28 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
Wonder why AF add more capacity on YUL instead of focusing on other NA markets where there could be higher yields such as ORD or IAH. Although both non-sky hubs I see potential for more than 1xdaily.


I'm not so sure the yields at ORD and IAH for AF would be higher. They have to compete with AA and UA at ORD (*AA flies ORD-CDG in Summer only) and UA at IAH where they have no feed at each.


Actually, AF has had IAH-CDG all to themselves for years now since UA dropped it. I expect it's a pretty strong route for them given that they can connect passengers beyond CDG to all kinds of oil destinations in Africa. Also, Houston has one of the larger West African populations in the U.S., if I remember correctly, which probably helps fill the 77W they use on the route.
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samuelx88
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:30 pm

There are 140k French tourists yearly in Montreal and YUL will get 5X daily on AF

Quebec city gets 70k French tourists yearly and still not a single AF flight to YQB, except a 3h bus to YUL. And that's over 1.2 M French speaking Canadians who are not getting an AF flight.

It makes no sense. It would be normal that YUL gets 5x more flight to Paris than YQB. But for next summer, it's over 10x more.

In my opinion AF should add 1x weekly to YOW on their A330 and 2x weekly to YQB on their A321 (or A319?) to try the market before adding more widebodies daily frequency to YUL. Ottawa and Québec deserve better.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:40 pm

FSDan wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
Wonder why AF add more capacity on YUL instead of focusing on other NA markets where there could be higher yields such as ORD or IAH. Although both non-sky hubs I see potential for more than 1xdaily.


I'm not so sure the yields at ORD and IAH for AF would be higher. They have to compete with AA and UA at ORD (*AA flies ORD-CDG in Summer only) and UA at IAH where they have no feed at each.


Actually, AF has had IAH-CDG all to themselves for years now since UA dropped it. I expect it's a pretty strong route for them given that they can connect passengers beyond CDG to all kinds of oil destinations in Africa. Also, Houston has one of the larger West African populations in the U.S., if I remember correctly, which probably helps fill the 77W they use on the route.


AF has flown IAH-CDG for decades. In the early to mid 1990s it was a 747.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:41 pm

samuelx88 wrote:
There are 140k French tourists yearly in Montreal and YUL will get 5X daily on AF

Quebec city gets 70k French tourists yearly and still not a single AF flight to YQB, except a 3h bus to YUL. And that's over 1.2 M French speaking Canadians who are not getting an AF flight.

It makes no sense. It would be normal that YUL gets 5x more flight to Paris than YQB. But for next summer, it's over 10x more.

In my opinion AF should add 1x weekly to YOW on their A330 and 2x weekly to YQB on their A321 (or A319?) to try the market before adding more widebodies daily frequency to YUL. Ottawa and Québec deserve better.


I'm pretty surprised AF hasn't tried YQB. There's obviously a huge Quebec-France market, which is only growing with the increasing French migration to Quebec.
 
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:04 pm

yulexpansion wrote:
jamsco99 wrote:
IndianicWorld wrote:

It’s a known market for them, which has high volume and must perform well.

No guarantees that there is higher yields elsewhere.


The reason they pulled the a380 is because of low yield


Not necessarily low yield, just not the premium volumes that could fill 9F + 80J. Canada is just not the market for a behemoth like that.


Unless you're Emirates...
 
EMB170
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:17 pm

I'm pretty surprised AF hasn't tried YQB. There's obviously a huge Quebec-France market, which is only growing with the increasing French migration to Quebec.[/quote]

YQB is a new market, one that's unproven. IIRC, AC had planned on offering YQB-CDG on the MAX 8 prior to it being grounded. Don't know if AF has an aircraft that would be equivalent with the range.
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
rampbro
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:23 pm

I used to pack the ULDs for AF at YUL back when YUL-CDG was 4x daily. First and last departures were O&D heavy, the 2nd was skewed towards Africa CNX, the 3rd towards Mid. East CNX. I wonder if that is still the case.

Besides Paris, secondary markets in France are also very well served from YUL.
 
Thibault973
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:45 pm

In 2016, 1 out of 2 passengers travelling overseas from YUL was going to France.
 
whywhyzee
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:46 pm

FSDan wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
Wonder why AF add more capacity on YUL instead of focusing on other NA markets where there could be higher yields such as ORD or IAH. Although both non-sky hubs I see potential for more than 1xdaily.


I'm not so sure the yields at ORD and IAH for AF would be higher. They have to compete with AA and UA at ORD (*AA flies ORD-CDG in Summer only) and UA at IAH where they have no feed at each.


Actually, AF has had IAH-CDG all to themselves for years now since UA dropped it. I expect it's a pretty strong route for them given that they can connect passengers beyond CDG to all kinds of oil destinations in Africa. Also, Houston has one of the larger West African populations in the U.S., if I remember correctly, which probably helps fill the 77W they use on the route.


Seasonal 77W, winter is A332
 
whywhyzee
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:59 pm

YYZ expansion is loaded, 10x weekly remains, second frequency begins one month earlier (now runs for entirety of the summer season), both flights currently showing 772.
 
FSDan
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:24 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
FSDan wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

I'm not so sure the yields at ORD and IAH for AF would be higher. They have to compete with AA and UA at ORD (*AA flies ORD-CDG in Summer only) and UA at IAH where they have no feed at each.


Actually, AF has had IAH-CDG all to themselves for years now since UA dropped it. I expect it's a pretty strong route for them given that they can connect passengers beyond CDG to all kinds of oil destinations in Africa. Also, Houston has one of the larger West African populations in the U.S., if I remember correctly, which probably helps fill the 77W they use on the route.


AF has flown IAH-CDG for decades. In the early to mid 1990s it was a 747.


Right. I was responding to the comment (bold added above) that AF has to compete with UA at IAH. They do compete on connecting flows such as IAH-XXX-FCO or IAH-XXX-RUH, but AF has no competition on the IAH-CDG segment at the current time, and hasn't had any for a few years now.
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EddieDude
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:33 pm

IndianicWorld wrote:
Too simplistic to say that sorry to say. Not high yield maybe, but a market with volume and obviously brings results.

It would mainly relate to filling an A380 with the premium demand that the cabin offers, so it likely saw better opportunities to meet the market with a better suited aircraft/frequency mix.

Good point. The A380 seemed at first glance like a smart way of serving YUL due to the massive demand, but the configuration was not optimal. Of course YUL is and will continue to be a major AF destination that, with the right combo of aircraft and seasonal adjustments, can earn AF tons of money.

Thenoflyzone wrote:
AF was summer seasonal to ORD for the longest time, and utilized its smallest type on the route (A332). The route went year round only 2 years ago, and at the same time DL canceled its seasonal service. That tells me skyteam and AF struggle with ORD.

I would imagine that AF enjoys certain PoS advantage in France, and that it must have in the bag certain corporate contracts from companies such as Alcatel, Publicis, Saint-Gobain, Schneider Electric, and Veolia Environnement and Bel Groupe, which have a strong presence in Chicago. Interesting that we don't see a sold long-year offering on a larger aircraft. Chicago is, after all, the third largest metro area in the U.S. and a global business center.
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dmanonice
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:12 pm

Air St. Pierre operates out of YUL, and has interline agreements with AF to transport passengers to St. Pierre and Miquelon. Other than 1/weekly summer seasonal service by ASL with the 737-700 this is the only permanent link to France for the territory. While it is not a primary driver of traffic it's just another indication of why YUL is an important market for AF, besides the massive french population in Quebec in general.

AF was 4 daily in the summer previously as mentioned before the introduction of the A380, which regrettably is too premium heavy for the Canadian market. I worked in YUL briefly during the A380 operations and it was not unusual to have plenty of room in the business cabin on those flights, or so i was told by my friends working the AF flights.
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whywhyzee
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:31 pm

In addition to the longer season, AF will be full 2x daily on yyz-cdg in July and August.

Re. The A380 to YUL, wouldn't suggest it's too premium for the Canadian market, or even the YUL market in general, the issue is that there isn't enough Y to meet the demand, while YUL-CDG could doubtlessly fill the A380 premium cabins, maybe sans F consistently, YUL-CDG is so massive it needs more flights to meet demand, and those have J cabins as well to fill, stuffing all of that J on one flight doesn't work with the rest.
 
goldorak
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:08 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:
Wonder why AF add more capacity on YUL instead of focusing on other NA markets where there could be higher yields such as ORD or IAH. Although both non-sky hubs I see potential for more than 1xdaily.

ORD has always been one of the weakest route in North America for AF.
 
goldorak
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:18 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
AF was summer seasonal to ORD for the longest time, and utilized its smallest type on the route (A332). The route went year round only 2 years ago, and at the same time DL canceled its seasonal service. That tells me skyteam and AF struggle with ORD.

You are lacking some history here. ORD was "an AF route" (I mean not a DL one like DTW or CVG and it existed long before ST creation). It was served year round by AF for a very long time. It was even served by a B747 for many years. Then it moved to a mix of A343 (summer)/A332 (winter) with a few B777 operations. As I said in my previous post, ORD has been one of the weakest route for AF in North America and they decided at one point to have DL operating it during the winter. DL used a B763 and was leaving from T5 instead of the terminal they are using normally at ORD (and they were using the AF lounge). This lasted something like 5 years and AF returned year round since a few years now. So the DL winter operations was a "parenthesis" and not the regular way AF/DL works on this route.
So, yes ORD has been traditionally difficult for AF/DL and also for many carriers outside *A. It is quite strange too that AA cannot make ORD-CDG works year round now with all the feed they have in ORD.
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:28 am

I suggested ORD and IAH because they serve the 3rd and 5th largest US metro areas, some others suggested EWR and PHL as they are not served currently and other did YQB due to growing traffic and lack of competition.

AF knows something we all don't know as they are increasing YUL to 5xdaily instead of any of these other options.
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
DSH8, CS1,CS3
 
jamsco99
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:02 am

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:37 am

dmanonice wrote:
Air St. Pierre operates out of YUL, and has interline agreements with AF to transport passengers to St. Pierre and Miquelon. Other than 1/weekly summer seasonal service by ASL with the 737-700 this is the only permanent link to France for the territory. While it is not a primary driver of traffic it's just another indication of why YUL is an important market for AF, besides the massive french population in Quebec in general.

AF was 4 daily in the summer previously as mentioned before the introduction of the A380, which regrettably is too premium heavy for the Canadian market. I worked in YUL briefly during the A380 operations and it was not unusual to have plenty of room in the business cabin on those flights, or so i was told by my friends working the AF flights.


one time i was flying lhr-ams-yul. Our LHR-AMS flight was delayed meaning we missed the connection to YUL. We then had to overnight in AMS and next day AMS-CDG-YUL. the CDG-YUL flight was on the a380 and we got upgraded to premium economy. I think everybody upstairs looked like they were on a free upgrade.
 
User avatar
MrBren
Posts: 332
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:44 am

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:55 pm

Does anyone have a summary of all weekly flights per airline between Canada and France?
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2877
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:32 pm

TObound wrote:
I'm always surprised there's no room (or yield apparently) in these schedules for a daily YOW-CDG.


The A321LR or (if it ever flies again) 737 MAX are the perfect sized aircraft for such a route. Works at least on a summer seasonal basis...year-round if it's AF. It'll happen eventually, it's just a question of when and by whom.

samuelx88 wrote:
There are 140k French tourists yearly in Montreal and YUL will get 5X daily on AF

Quebec city gets 70k French tourists yearly and still not a single AF flight to YQB, except a 3h bus to YUL. And that's over 1.2 M French speaking Canadians who are not getting an AF flight.

It makes no sense. It would be normal that YUL gets 5x more flight to Paris than YQB. But for next summer, it's over 10x more.

In my opinion AF should add 1x weekly to YOW on their A330 and 2x weekly to YQB on their A321 (or A319?) to try the market before adding more widebodies daily frequency to YUL. Ottawa and Québec deserve better.


Just like YOW-CDG, the 321LR/MAX is the perfectly sized aircraft for a network carrier to serve YQB-CDG as evidenced by TS' freqency increase to 4x weekly 321LR with the retirement of the 310...smaller gauge, but more frequency. An independent TS has no interest in serving anything transatlantic outside of YYZ, YUL and YQB, but an AC-controlled TS would almost certainly take a hard look at using TS for the likes of YOW-CDG, especially given the possibility of some onward AC connections at YOW.
 
jamsco99
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:02 am

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:12 pm

EMB170 wrote:
I'm pretty surprised AF hasn't tried YQB. There's obviously a huge Quebec-France market, which is only growing with the increasing French migration to Quebec.


YQB is a new market, one that's unproven. IIRC, AC had planned on offering YQB-CDG on the MAX 8 prior to it being grounded. Don't know if AF has an aircraft that would be equivalent with the range.[/quote]

im sure Zoom used to fly this route.
 
alexdelzotto1
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:05 pm

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:21 pm

MrBren wrote:
Does anyone have a summary of all weekly flights per airline between Canada and France?


For summer 2020

CDG
24 weekly AF (77W, 772)
17 weekly TS (333, 332, 321)
14 weekly AC (77W, 333)

ORY
7 weekly Corsair (333)
4 weekly LEVEL (332)

LYS
6 weekly AC (333)
5 weekly TS (332/333)

TLS
5 weekly AC (333)
5 weekly TS (321)

MRS
4 weekly AC (763)
5 weekly TS (332)

NCE
5 weekly AC (333)
2 weekly TS (332)

BOD
3 weekly AC (763)
4 weekly TS (321, 332)

NTE
4 weekly TS (332)

BSL
2 weekly TS (321)
 
User avatar
MrBren
Posts: 332
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:44 am

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:50 pm

alexdelzotto1 wrote:
MrBren wrote:
Does anyone have a summary of all weekly flights per airline between Canada and France?


For summer 2020

CDG
24 weekly AF (77W, 772)
17 weekly TS (333, 332, 321)
14 weekly AC (77W, 333)

ORY
7 weekly Corsair (333)
4 weekly LEVEL (332)

LYS
6 weekly AC (333)
5 weekly TS (332/333)

TLS
5 weekly AC (333)
5 weekly TS (321)

MRS
4 weekly AC (763)
5 weekly TS (332)

NCE
5 weekly AC (333)
2 weekly TS (332)

BOD
3 weekly AC (763)
4 weekly TS (321, 332)

NTE
4 weekly TS (332)

BSL
2 weekly TS (321)


Many thanks. The number of flights is quite amazing. There are also 6 weekly by WS on 787 to CDG no?
 
ryan78
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:29 am

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:36 pm

MrBren wrote:

Many thanks. The number of flights is quite amazing. There are also 6 weekly by WS on 787 to CDG no?


I think these are only the stats from YUL to France.
 
Thibault973
Posts: 334
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:11 am

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:27 pm

MrBren wrote:
alexdelzotto1 wrote:
MrBren wrote:
Does anyone have a summary of all weekly flights per airline between Canada and France?


For summer 2020

CDG
24 weekly AF (77W, 772)
17 weekly TS (333, 332, 321)
14 weekly AC (77W, 333)

ORY
7 weekly Corsair (333)
4 weekly LEVEL (332)

LYS
6 weekly AC (333)
5 weekly TS (332/333)

TLS
5 weekly AC (333)
5 weekly TS (321)

MRS
4 weekly AC (763)
5 weekly TS (332)

NCE
5 weekly AC (333)
2 weekly TS (332)

BOD
3 weekly AC (763)
4 weekly TS (321, 332)

NTE
4 weekly TS (332)

BSL
2 weekly TS (321)


Many thanks. The number of flights is quite amazing. There are also 6 weekly by WS on 787 to CDG no?


WS operates from Calgary (4w) and Halifax (D) to CDG, not from Montreal. TS also operates from Toronto and Quebec (they are dropping YVR next summer), AC from YYZ and YVR, as does AF.

A fed summers ago, TS also flew YYZ-MRS but these have been dropped.
 
yycdel
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:14 pm

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:48 pm

alexdelzotto1 wrote:
MrBren wrote:
Does anyone have a summary of all weekly flights per airline between Canada and France?


For summer 2020

CDG
24 weekly AF (77W, 772)
17 weekly TS (333, 332, 321)
14 weekly AC (77W, 333)

ORY
7 weekly Corsair (333)
4 weekly LEVEL (332)



Is this more than YYZ-LHR/LGW?
 
alexdelzotto1
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:05 pm

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:06 pm

yycdel wrote:
alexdelzotto1 wrote:
MrBren wrote:
Does anyone have a summary of all weekly flights per airline between Canada and France?


For summer 2020

CDG
24 weekly AF (77W, 772)
17 weekly TS (333, 332, 321)
14 weekly AC (77W, 333)

ORY
7 weekly Corsair (333)
4 weekly LEVEL (332)



Is this more than YYZ-LHR/LGW?


I believe YYZ-LON is 67 weekly and YUL-PAR is 66.
But when comparing YUL-France vs. YYZ-UK, I believe YUL is one of the top in North America from one city to a specific country.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8527
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:21 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:
I suggested ORD and IAH because they serve the 3rd and 5th largest US metro areas, some others suggested EWR and PHL as they are not served currently...


That line of thinking ignores the services of other carriers.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8527
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:23 pm

samuelx88 wrote:
There are 140k French tourists yearly in Montreal and YUL will get 5X daily on AF

Quebec city gets 70k French tourists yearly and still not a single AF flight to YQB, except a 3h bus to YUL. And that's over 1.2 M French speaking Canadians who are not getting an AF flight.

It makes no sense. It would be normal that YUL gets 5x more flight to Paris than YQB. But for next summer, it's over 10x more.

In my opinion AF should add 1x weekly to YOW on their A330 and 2x weekly to YQB on their A321 (or A319?) to try the market before adding more widebodies daily frequency to YUL. Ottawa and Québec deserve better.


Deserve is certainly an interesting choice of verb. Why don't you think AF simply follows the money?
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: AF increasing YUL/YYZ

Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:53 pm

alexdelzotto1 wrote:
yycdel wrote:
alexdelzotto1 wrote:

For summer 2020

CDG
24 weekly AF (77W, 772)
17 weekly TS (333, 332, 321)
14 weekly AC (77W, 333)

ORY
7 weekly Corsair (333)
4 weekly LEVEL (332)



Is this more than YYZ-LHR/LGW?


I believe YYZ-LON is 67 weekly and YUL-PAR is 66.
But when comparing YUL-France vs. YYZ-UK, I believe YUL is one of the top in North America from one city to a specific country.


YYZ-UK weekly flights peak season are as follows:

LHR: 28x AC, 14x BA
LGW: 7x WS, 14 daily TS, 4x BA
DUB: 7x AC, 7x EI, 5x TS
MAN: 7x AC, 5x TS
SNN: 4x AC
GLA: 3x AC, 5x TS
EDI: 4x

That's a total of 114 flights or an average of ~16/day from YYZ to the UK.

YUL-France has a narrow lead, with 116 flights per week as it currently stands, both at their peak (I used the week of July 12th as a reference to check the YYZ-UK numbers, YUL I borrowed from another forum).

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